High Level Defense/survival Discussion

[Eremes]

could we have the actual constructive off topic related conversation moved to another post instead of just baleeeted?

 

it would be better that to pretend this isnt a new form of internet spaghetti.

 

Here's a way to improve the game for a better; remove the design council. Sure maybe it had its reasoning in closed beta, but now it's just silly. You can't expect a small portion and hand selected players to provide a strong base for new content. Hell, the info even gets leaked within 5 minutes of their post time. No reason for special clubs, we need to kick it into high gear finally.

that surely cant be done, asides those people had paid IRL dosh for it (that privilege i belive cant be refunded) it makes sense for DE to filter the feedback of 4 quadrillion tennos by picking just 2 or 3 thousand.

 

asides i have to admit it has been way too long DC has done something meaningful. now they have the weapons pool (i didnt even got in, all i wanted was a tower shield =C) but before it was nova's skill set, i think? i cant remember what would it be before that.

[cknives]

Man i don't recognize any of those "veteran" names. But i did quit for those same reasons some time ago :). I was thinking about reinstalling so i came here to check up on things... Seems like DE is still headed in the wrong direction. To bad =[

[-XeqtR]

Warframe isn't a competitive game though, and it will never be one. Main focus is in pve, as it should be. I'm sorry you think survival or defense is hard but it really isn't. It's just repetitive tasks over and over again much like entire game. There is no real challenge involved in anything in this game, bullet sponge enemies with ridiculous damage hitscan weapons is not real challenge, nothing requires any actual thought or skill.

 

 

See, that's exactly the problem. We don't know what is "just around the corner". Steve and co repeatedly said in the live stream "good things are around the corner!", but apart from some concept art and abundance of weaponry, we don't know what they have accomplished in working on so far.

"Melee 2.0 is just around the corner guys! It'll be great!", after seeing the Affinity 2.0 thread shot down so quickly like that, you'll probably understand when i have major doubts in it being anything close to an improvement to the game.

More workshop threads would definitely be good, as they could show off what they half-completed or just blueprinted so far and get a response before they waste effort and probably even gain new inspiration and hints of improving on what they already have.

 

I'm a casual gamer, i admit that. But even i think there's no challenge in the game unless you artificially cripple yourself, like going with a unranked weapon and no shield mod to phobos.

I dislike PvE personally, but i also think that a game like warframe would not work for PvP. Just look at Rhino and Trinity and imagine them in PvP with ironskin/blessing popped. You'd probably have to recreate the game from scratch to work out a balanced PvP mode. It would probably be easier if you just reskinned TF2 with Warframe suits.

Once again, how can anyone claim something is difficult unless they've done it themselves. If doing 100 or even 200 waves were really that easy there would be more people doing it. I will agree hands down on infested with Vauban it's impossible to lose, but any other faction I hardly ever see any other people doing that. It's not even a real time investment, you can do 100 waves in under 2 hours. If one of you people claiming that there is no challenge in end game survival or defense would show me proof that you have actually been high enough to make that claim I will gladly accept your opinion. Until then, all you have is theory to my first hand experience. It's like you guys think that because you can drive a car that flying a plane must also be easy.

[KvotheTheArcane1]

Once again, how can anyone claim something is difficult unless they've done it themselves. If doing 100 or even 200 waves were really that easy there would be more people doing it.

Wrong, it's a test of your endurance before you get bored, I could go do 100 or 200 waves in defense, but why? It's not a challenge of my skill, it's a test of how long I can stand to press frame abilities, or shoot a few enemies over and over.

[GleamingEye]

Once again, how can anyone claim something is difficult unless they've done it themselves. If doing 100 or even 200 waves were really that easy there would be more people doing it. I will agree hands down on infested with Vauban it's impossible to lose, but any other faction I hardly ever see any other people doing that. It's not even a real time investment, you can do 100 waves in under 2 hours. If one of you people claiming that there is no challenge in end game survival or defense would show me proof that you have actually been high enough to make that claim I will gladly accept your opinion. Until then, all you have is theory to my first hand experience. It's like you guys think that because you can drive a car that flying a plane must also be easy.

 

You do know the game cant handle you going past wave 100 right? It just wont let you, it bugs out and you can never finish wave 101.

Indeed I have never been bored enough to try this outside ODD but I doubt it would be different elsewhere.

 

Also it is really easy, REALLY easy, because the games scaling works in a way that doesn't even matter when theres 100% protection you can smack on permanently with the addition of the HP max of the enemies being apparent already at level 150 (large) and 300 (small). Now armor, that is a thing that can make it slightly difficult, but theres plenty of things that work around that aswell making even non-infested trivial.

 

Now about making it actually require skill? Well you'd have to fix the AI, add new enemy types that don't just run right at you like zombies and basically rework most of the frames in the game...

No I'm not saying nerf, thats a HORRIBLE idea, I'm saying rework as in actually have them do something that makes them function in a team without being boring or breaking the challange.

[Tejan]

Once again, how can anyone claim something is difficult unless they've done it themselves. If doing 100 or even 200 waves were really that easy there would be more people doing it.

Simply put, there's a number of reasons many people haven't done it, including but limited to:

Barrier for entry - If you're bad at the game you need good items, this would include something like a forma'd Soma, your sidearm of choice, be it the Stug, Brakk, or Akvasto, and whatever melee you want as you probably won't use it.

Time - You said you played a 7 hour survival. I doubt I even play 7 hours of Warframe a day.

General care - Here's the thing, Warframe is a game of grinding. If you're grinding for something the optimal way to do it isn't always just keep going, the effort would exceed what's needed. For example: I got my Mag from 26 to 30 during an infestation survival node by just sitting on a boxing using pull for 5 minutes then leaving, each time I gained about 2 levels so I knew in the 3 runs needed for that node I'd get to 30 and didn't need to sit in the node for over an hour. That being said, if I just equipped a Rank 0 weapon, no matter how good the stats are, I would run into issues, using that weapon, about the time the enemies start getting to 30ish, so the optimal strategy would be to leave and come back in with more mods.

Edited January 17, 2014 by Tejan

[-XeqtR]

Wrong, it's a test of your endurance before you get bored, I could go do 100 or 200 waves in defense, but why? It's not a challenge of my skill, it's a test of how long I can stand to press frame abilities, or shoot a few enemies over and over.

The irony that you make the same exact type of post that I was responding to in the first place.

You cannot make that claim if you haven't done it yourself because I have and I'm telling you that you're wrong. It's like if this were any other situation besides warframe like, a bunch of kids making theories and a scientist who has actually done the experiment and seen the factual outcome and the kids still believe their stubborn opinion.

 

 

You do know the game cant handle you going past wave 100 right? It just wont let you, it bugs out and you can never finish wave 101.

Indeed I have never been bored enough to try this outside ODD but I doubt it would be different elsewhere.

 

Also it is really easy, REALLY easy, because the games scaling works in a way that doesn't even matter when theres 100% protection you can smack on permanently with the addition of the HP max of the enemies being apparent already at level 150 (large) and 300 (small). Now armor, that is a thing that can make it slightly difficult, but theres plenty of things that work around that aswell making even non-infested trivial.

 

Now about making it actually require skill? Well you'd have to fix the AI, add new enemy types that don't just run right at you like zombies and basically rework most of the frames in the game...

No I'm not saying nerf, thats a HORRIBLE idea, I'm saying rework as in actually have them do something that makes them function in a team without being boring or breaking the challange.

The 100 wave cap thing was only for a few weeks after a buggy hotfix and has since been fixed. I've also address how infested are easy and I 100% agree that anyone can do any wave they want with them. Infested aren't hard I agree with you all about that. 

 

Seriously have any of you making this claim been over at least wave 100 on Grineer or corpus? You know that shields and armor scale pretty high right? It's like I'm talking to a wall. How does theory trump factual experience. ._. 

[General_Krull]

Once again, how can anyone claim something is difficult unless they've done it themselves. If doing 100 or even 200 waves were really that easy there would be more people doing it. I will agree hands down on infested with Vauban it's impossible to lose, but any other faction I hardly ever see any other people doing that. It's not even a real time investment, you can do 100 waves in under 2 hours. If one of you people claiming that there is no challenge in end game survival or defense would show me proof that you have actually been high enough to make that claim I will gladly accept your opinion. Until then, all you have is theory to my first hand experience. It's like you guys think that because you can drive a car that flying a plane must also be easy.

Doing any defense or survival for long isn't any real challenge, and I think people don't do such long runs because there is literally no reason to. It's a lot of effort for nothing. I'm sorry to drag  you down to reality but it's the truth. And 2 hours in one mission in my opinion is a lot of time.

[-XeqtR]

Doing any defense or survival for long isn't any real challenge

I just don't get it. Are you guys trolling me now? You keep saying that same thing over and over again and I keep saying that you cannot make that claim unless you've actually done it. How do you know?! Please just be logical for the sake of the argument and realize what I'm saying. Just because you know what the first hour or however long you've done it is, doesn't mean you know how hard the rest of it is. It scales and gets increasingly harder. Of course it's easy and non-challenging in the beginning, that's how it's supposed to be. How do you know what 100 waves after that will be like? Theory alone cannot give you the answer.

[KvotheTheArcane1]

The irony that you make the same exact type of post that I was responding to in the first place.

You cannot make that claim if you haven't done it yourself because I have and I'm telling you that you're wrong. It's like if this were any other situation besides warframe like, a bunch of kids making theories and a scientist who has actually done the experiment and seen the factual outcome and the kids still believe their stubborn opinion.

Because you're trying to claim doing a mindless task over and over is challenging, when it's not. The only "challenge" to it is the endless scaling of enemies. But lets pretend they didn't endlessly scale, and they stayed at level X the entire 100 waves. What's so hard about it now?

Edited January 17, 2014 by KvotheTheArcane1

[Tejan]

How do you know what 100 waves after that will be like? Theory alone cannot give you the answer.

Not to sound rude, but math will actually give a much more accurate representation than actually being there.

[-XeqtR]

Because you're trying to claim doing a mindless task over and over is challenging, when it's not. The only "challenge" to it is the endless scaling of enemies. But lets pretend they didn't endlessly scale, and they stayed at level X the entire 100 waves. What's so hard about it now?

Just humor me and try it for yourself. If you can do it and say it was easy then I'll accept what you say, but until you have proof of such a claim your opinion (yes that's all it is) is nothing compared to a fact. I'm not even saying that it's the hardest thing in the world or a super challenge - I am saying to the most basic words; do not make a claim, unless you have proof of that claim. All you are doing is speculating.

 

Not to sound rude, but math will actually give a much more accurate representation than actually being there.

You know the exact equation of how they scale currently? I'd like to see it. From my last test (a few days ago) they scaled 125+ levels per wave for about 20 waves from 70-90 and then evened out to about 16 per level. (It was very random and confusing and I doubt there is an exact equation).

 

 

EDIT: I think basketball is repetitive, but I don't think for a second that it's easy. Flying a plane from one airport to another is repetitive, but I don't think that flying a plane has no skill. How would I be able to say that flying a plane has skill or not if I have never flown a plane? 

Edited January 17, 2014 by -XeqtR

[KvotheTheArcane1]

Just humor me and try it for yourself. If you can do it and say it was easy then I'll accept what you say, but until you have proof of such a claim your opinion (yes that's all it is) is nothing compared to a fact. I'm not even saying that it's the hardest thing in the world or a super challenge - I am saying to the most basic words; do not make a claim, unless you have proof of that claim. All you are doing is speculating.

Strip away DE's artificial difficulty, and you'll see what people mean. Lets pretend for a bit that every enemy from wave 1 to 100 is level 1. How hard is it really? It's not, it's simply a matter of repetition, and the only thing higher level enemies require you to have is a form of invulnerability, and take more bullets. Get a frost, grineer and corpus become easy. Get a vauban, you just beat infested forever.

[Hyunsai]

Heeh, just saw this thread, I'd like to see some videos of endless defense grinner close to wave 100 (starting at tier 3 of course).

 

Thanks !

[-XeqtR]

Strip away DE's artificial difficulty, and you'll see what people mean. Lets pretend for a bit that every enemy from wave 1 to 100 is level 1. How hard is it really? It's not, it's simply a matter of repetition, and the only thing higher level enemies require you to have is a form of invulnerability, and take more bullets. Get a frost, grineer and corpus become easy. Get a vauban, you just beat infested forever.

Do you not understand that shields and armor scale? They get increasingly harder to kill - that's the point. There's lots of defensive methods to staying alive which are repetitive, sure, but did you forget that you have to be able to kill them?

[KvotheTheArcane1]

Do you not understand that shields and armor scale? They get increasingly harder to kill - that's the point. There's lots of defensive methods to staying alive which are repetitive, sure, but did you forget that you have to be able to kill them?

Again, stripping the artificial difficulty out, you're left with repetition, and all that scaling does is mean you need to find a way to simply mitigate all damage (trinity/frost/vauban, etc) and with armor/shields/HP scaling is where a well forma'd sniper comes into play.

Edited January 17, 2014 by KvotheTheArcane1

[Eremes]

scaling would hardly matter. i have not done defense in a long time but since setting the goal to farm for a T2 or T3 key to myself every day i have faced with the same difficulty of finding a group willing to do ODS, and it is always the same scheme to avoid mobs and kill them however we can.

 

best trick that you  will find is a trinity that doesnt need a outside chronometer to use blessing, a vauban that can do party tricks with vortex or a nuker that can reach the whole map and leave bodies behind. at some point i ask to leave because my day just started and i have places to go, books to read, hope my computer wont crash, etc. chances are if you reached wave 40 or 30 minutes on survival in any faction you should be able to do it forever, simply because of how the AI handles the players.

 

as you can CC perfectly the AI that doesnt know or tries to avoid the CC, the only issue you have is ammo efficiency and if all skills used are energy efficient. a vauban can vortex and bastille indefinitively, a trinity can also bless+link indefinitively and make others too. so can frost, valk, rhino, etc.

[-XeqtR]

Again, stripping the artificial difficulty out, you're left with repetition, and all that scaling does is mean you need to find a way to simply mitigate all damage (trinity/frost/vauban, etc) and with armor/shields/HP scaling is where a well forma'd sniper comes into play.

Please. use the biggest sniper you want against level 1000+ corpus shields and watch as it takes away maybe 10%. Lol. 

[Eremes]

Please. use the biggest sniper you want against level 1000+ corpus shields and watch as it takes away maybe 10%. Lol. 

mag would do it with shield polarize. the resulting blast could possibly kill everyone a la MP, if not the proper way is to work with a viral weapon to proc as much as possible while CCing the target. if the shields are still a issue, simply use more SP or do pull to peform CC.

 

its a matter of CC. so what if it takes 10 shots to down a corpus crewmen shield? if he cant move or shoot, you can have all the time in the world to give the ~15 shots needed to kill him

[General_Krull]

Please. use the biggest sniper you want against level 1000+ corpus shields and watch as it takes away maybe 10%. Lol. 

You use magnetic and toxic. With good guns and a nova you melt faces until your computer crashes because long games are bad. Seriously, you wasted 7 hours doing a boring run for no reason, grats. It doesn't make you a warframe expert or survival or defense expert. People who have played longer over all who understand the nuances of AI (or lack of it) know more. 

 

Everyone could easily do 100 wave defenses or survival, it doesn't take any skill at all, all you need is proper load outs and skills and you can go forever. So please, stop your unwarranted elitism, it's ridiculous. Especially in presence of greatness such of warbros members and other fine specimens.

[KvotheTheArcane1]

Please. use the biggest sniper you want against level 1000+ corpus shields and watch as it takes away maybe 10%. Lol. 

Magnetic/toxic. Ignore the shields, or massively damage them. Haven't you specced to kill corpus?

Edited January 17, 2014 by KvotheTheArcane1

[-XeqtR]

You use magnetic and toxic. With good guns and a nova you melt faces until your computer crashes because long games are bad. Seriously, you wasted 7 hours doing a boring run for no reason, grats. It doesn't make you a warframe expert or survival or defense expert. People who have played longer over all who understand the nuances of AI (or lack of it) know more. 

 

Everyone could easily do 100 wave defenses or survival, it doesn't take any skill at all, all you need is proper load outs and skills and you can go forever. So please, stop your unwarranted elitism, it's ridiculous. Especially in presence of greatness such of warbros members and other fine specimens.

Oh I'm sorry, you know that it will work against level 1000's because you have done it? Oh wait...

 

If anyone has a right to be elitist it isn't a Grineerbro. Grats on being the biggest clan in warframe thus winning you events. If you think survival and defense don't take any skill - then surely you can't think grinding takes any skill. In fact; grinding is much lower in skill and much higher in repetitiveness than anything else. Stay small, casual.

 

I'm not trying to say I'm the best. I'm not trying to say that it's the hardest thing in the world. I'm saying that you cannot make a claim about something unless you have done it yourself. It's actually a really basic thing to understand. I'll even bold it so you can read what I've said at least 5 times now.

 

 

Magnetic/toxic. Ignore the shields, or massively damage them. Haven't you specced to kill corpus?

I have. I can tell you that without a doubt you will be sorely mistaken once you see how crazy those shields scale. Please, try it for yourself before assuming.

Edited January 17, 2014 by -XeqtR

[KvotheTheArcane1]

I have. I can tell you that without a doubt you will be sorely mistaken once you see how crazy those shields scale. Please, try it for yourself before assuming.

I have, works pretty well for me. Now, I didn't go to wave 100, but I did hit wave 50 before getting bored, because it's just repeating the same thing over and over, with enemies simply taking longer to kill.

[waaaaaaaals]

 I'm saying that you cannot make a claim about something unless you have done it yourself.

Fire tastes exactly like cinnemon, you can't tell me otherwise unless you've tasted fire yourself.

 

Get back to me on that one.

Edited January 17, 2014 by waaaaaaaals

[-XeqtR]

I have, works pretty well for me. Now, I didn't go to wave 100, but I did hit wave 50 before getting bored, because it's just repeating the same thing over and over, with enemies simply taking longer to kill.

In the context we were talking I was talking about killing level 1,000's shields with your weapon. Your response was that you can mod your weapon to annihilate any level of corpus. I told you to try it for yourself, and you go on to say "I have, works pretty well for me"......but you haven't? I said go and try to kill level 1000's before assuming that you can kill them with your weapon. Of course the first 50 waves are easy, how does that even compare to what I'm talking about. Wave 50 is level 100 enemies? If that? Level 1000 is 10 times harder

 

 

Fire tastes exactly like cinnemon, you can't tell me otherwise unless you've tasted fire yourself.

 

Get back to me on that one.

Seems like not a fair comparison. Let's take your logic to another comparison.

 

Let's say you've never eaten chicken. I tell you what it tastes like and you argue, to the death of you (while also never tasting it) that it must taste like hamburgers. Do you see how ridiculous that is? You're right, I can't tell you what fire tastes like because I have never tasted it. If you have actually tasted fire, I'll take your word for it. I'm not going to assume that it tastes like blueberries.

Edited January 17, 2014 by -XeqtR