Who Is The New Useless Frame?

[LukeAura]

If the only criterion for a good skill is time/kill then every frame but Nova and maybe Saryn has bad skills.  

Only when we have no interaction with said skill. 

[Dalu__Ka]

Only a poor craftsman blames his tools.

[SquirmyBurrito]

Blade Storm is instant cast, ignores armor, has high damage, and can be cast at remote enemies.  No other frame can cast their room-clearing 4 at enemies in another room, become invincible for the duration while restoring shield, and then come back to the starting location ready to attack a third room.  Ash is not weak; Nova, Saryn, etc. are overpowered and trivialize gameplay.  If the only criterion for a good skill is time/kill then every frame but Nova and maybe Saryn has bad skills.  Smoke Screen's radial stagger is also underrated and reaches quite far with Stretch equipped.  Making it able to be cast in the air is a good idea IMO.

 

Being instant cast doesn't really mean much when you have a ~1 second kill animation for each of the fifteen enemies you kill.

 

Ignoring Armor is nice... but enemy health scales as well.

 

With a total damage limit of 68700 (sans buff abilities from other frames).

 

Okay.

 

That's true, too bad Ash's 'room-clearing 4' is only room clearing when there are no more than 15 enemies in the room. If you're trying to say Ash's niche is being a target limited, slow, remote, damage dealing frame... my only reply is "You're reaching". Nova's Antimatter Drop (arguably I guess) does that better than Ash, and that's only her second skill.

 

Yes, you can say those frames (why Saryn?) are OP as an excuse for Ash not being weak. But, even if we were to ignore Nova's existence Ash wouldn't be any better. Ash gets beat as a Damage frame, and Ash gets beat as an Invisibility frame. Fusing two doses of mediocrity does not make him any better (three if you want to have a mobility discussion). Ember does the 'Single-Target Damage' role better.

 

Time-Kill ratio is a definite criterion for frames focusing on the damage role. 

 

I don't think the stagger is underrated, its just not nearly amazing enough to make up for Smoke Screen's lack of flexibility. Prior to my realization that smoke screen doesn't maintain momentum and isn't castable in the air, I would have said the two skills were equal. Now not so much.

 

With Stretch it has a range of 14.5.

 

Until that and the momentum problem get solved, Invisibility will maintain its superiority.

 

Only a poor craftsman blames his tools.

 

A poor craftsman has every right to blame his tools. If he's poor he isn't going to be able to afford better tools.

[RealPandemonium]

Only when we have no interaction with said skill. 

The targeting decision and timing for Blade Storm contribute gameplay because if either is done incorrectly you waste time and energy on the skill.  It is a skill that both fills an effective niche and rewards smart usage. 

[Dalu__Ka]

A poor craftsman has every right to blame his tools. If he's poor he isn't going to be able to afford better tools.

 

In this context poor doesn't mean insufficient funds, it means low skilled.

[SquirmyBurrito]

The targeting decision and timing for Blade Storm contribute gameplay because if either is done incorrectly you waste time and energy on the skill.  It is a skill that both fills an effective niche and rewards smart usage. 

 

The only target you get to select is the initial one. So there is no guarantee that any target other than the initial one was worth the energy and time spent using the skill (trash mobs).

 

In this context poor doesn't mean insufficient funds, it means low skilled.

 

I know, but I hear that saying used so often I decided to put a different spin on it. 

[RealPandemonium]

Being instant cast doesn't really mean much when you have a ~1 second kill animation for each of the fifteen enemies you kill.

 

Ignoring Armor is nice... but enemy health scales as well.

 

With a total damage limit of 68700 (sans buff abilities from other frames).

 

Okay.

 

That's true, too bad Ash's 'room-clearing 4' is only room clearing when there are no more than 15 enemies in the room. If you're trying to say Ash's niche is being a target limited, slow, remote, damage dealing frame... my only reply is "You're reaching". Nova's Antimatter Drop (arguably I guess) does that better than Ash, and that's only her second skill.

 

Yes, you can say those frames (why Saryn?) are OP as an excuse for Ash not being weak. But, even if we were to ignore Nova's existence Ash wouldn't be any better. Ash gets beat as a Damage frame, and Ash gets beat as an Invisibility frame. Fusing two doses of mediocrity does not make him any better (three if you want to have a mobility discussion). Ember does the 'Single-Target Damage' role better.

 

Time-Kill ratio is a definite criterion for frames focusing on the damage role. 

 

I don't think the stagger is underrated, its just not nearly amazing enough to make up for Smoke Screen's lack of flexibility. Prior to my realization that smoke screen doesn't maintain momentum and isn't castable in the air, I would have said the two skills were equal. Now not so much.

 

With Stretch it has a range of 14.5.

 

Until that and the momentum problem get solved, Invisibility will maintain its superiority.

 

 

A poor craftsman has every right to blame his tools. If he's poor he isn't going to be able to afford better tools.

Instant cast makes it a reliable escape and assassination tool.

 

Blade storm with max efficiency deals 3140 damage which is enough to kill the heaviest units into the mid 30s.

 

We should never have had room-clearing abilities in the first place.  Blade Storm is grounded by its execution time, number of max targets, and restriction to the one tile.  That makes it acceptable as a powerful ability.  Abilities like Miasma, Molecular Prime, Avalanche, Reckoning, etc. are poorly designed, making the game boring and one-dimensional when their respective frames are involved.  This kind of gameplay is uninteresting and nothing but a power trip for the player, who doesn't have to use any skill to kill everything around instantly.  Maybe room-clearing ultimates were OK when they used to cost 70 energy but they are just stupid now that they only cost 25 and Energy Siphon is a reality rather than an option.  Sure, killing things fast is fun but not when it takes zero effort. 

[SquirmyBurrito]

Instant cast makes it a reliable escape and assassination tool.

 

Blade storm with max efficiency deals 3140 damage which is enough to kill the heaviest units into the mid 30s.

 

We should never have had room-clearing abilities in the first place.  Blade Storm is grounded by its execution time, number of max targets, and restriction to the one tile.  That makes it acceptable as a powerful ability.  Abilities like Miasma, Molecular Prime, Avalanche, Reckoning, etc. are poorly designed, making the game boring and one-dimensional when their respective frames are involved.  This kind of gameplay is uninteresting and nothing but a power trip for the player, who doesn't have to use any skill to kill everything around instantly.  Maybe room-clearing ultimates were OK when they used to cost 70 energy but they are just stupid now that they only cost 25 and Energy Siphon is a reality rather than an option.  Sure, killing things fast is fun but not when it takes zero effort. 

 

I disagree. How is it an escape when it puts you right back where you started after it is finished?

 

Wiki says it deals 4580, and has a 15 target limit.

 

Why? Boring is subjective. As is what is and what isn't uninteresting. Since when is skill involved in aiming at an enemy and pressing 4? Blade Storm takes minimal effort (I'm acknowledging aiming, which isn't hard either).

 

You mixed too much opinion into this. How am I suppose to reply to that in any way other than pointing out that it is subjective?

[RealPandemonium]

I disagree. How is it an escape when it puts you right back where you started after it is finished?

 

Wiki says it deals 4580, and has a 15 target limit.

 

Why? Boring is subjective. As is what is and what isn't uninteresting. Since when is skill involved in aiming at an enemy and pressing 4? Blade Storm takes minimal effort (I'm acknowledging aiming, which isn't hard either).

 

You mixed too much opinion into this. How am I suppose to reply to that in any way other than pointing out that it is subjective?

While I cannot challenge what is subjective I will point out that 3140 is the highest damage you can get without going over 25 energy cost, and that it is an escape from things like explosives and melee units. 

[SquirmyBurrito]

While I cannot challenge what is subjective I will point out that 3140 is the highest damage you can get without going over 25 energy cost, and that it is an escape from things like explosives and melee units. 

 

Oh you weren't talking about its max damage? That explains that. Wouldn't Smoke Screen/Teleport be a much better counter to those situations?

[Wallace24]

I think banshee should be in the higher skill ceiling bracket, unless you don't consider actually aiming at stuff skill. banshee has the best damage buff ability in the game, and her CC is useful and simplistic. and the low power ceiling is sort of a technicality, because, again, sonar can boost her damage to ungodly levels. and based on the fact that you put her in low tier and nova in high tier means that the power ceiling category favors strong powers in early game over strong powers in late-game

 

I also don't think oberon is low-tier in terms of survivability. he has a healing ability, and his ult spawns health orbs. nova should probably be down there given her defenses

 

damage output might not be high for frost, but snow globe does scale well for end-game, and ice wave and avalanche can be pretty strong as well

 

 

obi-ron does need some work, but he also has a unique healing skill that can auto-revive you. while this isn't better than blessing, it can definitely be useful, but to be used to its fullest potential requires a lot of skill and timing. not saying I have that down, but someone might, and it's certainly a possibility

 

I assume the 17 votes for loki and the 24 votes for trinity in the "who's useless" category were butthurt ash or rhino players. I'm also surprised that valkyr got more votes than ash for that

[(PSN)billy-d-squid]

Only a poor craftsman blames his tools.

 

Really, because when I built Nekros someone gave me a fork instead of a saw.

Edited April 3, 2014 by (PS4)billy-d-squid

[ExplodingStars]

Really, because when I built Nekros someone gave me a fork instead of a saw.

I preferred the Shovel but... Saw will do too...

I guess...

[RealPandemonium]

Oh you weren't talking about its max damage? That explains that. Wouldn't Smoke Screen/Teleport be a much better counter to those situations?

Teleport's targeting is finicky and there often isn't a great target to use it on in emergencies, at least not apparently.  Smokescreen's stun is useful but not when a napalm blob is flying toward you.  Hitting 4 lets me kill the guy who shot at me and his buddies while my shields recharge and his fireball dissipates.

[Nagisawa]

God Tier: Vauban/Rhino/Nova/Trinity

High Tier: Loki/Nyx/Mag 

Mid Tier: Oberon/Nekros/Ember/Volt/Frost

Low Tier: Ash/Valkyr/Excalibur 

 

all based on personal experience, even though a true analysis would have to require a full best vs each faction and certain game types. 

 

Yes, I put frost mid tier cause his other abilities are useless. I value overall Frame usefulness. 1 god mode button doesn't make him high tier, let alone god tier in my eyes. 

This would be my list.

[SquirmyBurrito]

Teleport's targeting is finicky and there often isn't a great target to use it on in emergencies, at least not apparently.  Smokescreen's stun is useful but not when a napalm blob is flying toward you.  Hitting 4 lets me kill the guy who shot at me and his buddies while my shields recharge and his fireball dissipates.

 

No it isn't. Teleport's targeting is just like every other target-required ability I.E- Blade Storm, Soul Punch, Fireball (I think), Teleport, Switch Teleport, etc. I did a video on this a while back. The only things that are needed to effectively use Teleport are good aim and to be within its range. Napalm 'blobs' are easy to dodge (you can literally run away). Teleport does/allows for the same except it continues to 'scale' via not having a function that can be hindered by constantly raising enemy levels. If you can aim your blade storm, you could have aimed a teleport.

[RealPandemonium]

No it isn't. Teleport's targeting is just like every other target-required ability I.E- Blade Storm, Soul Punch, Fireball (I think), Teleport, Switch Teleport, etc. I did a video on this a while back. The only things that are needed to effectively use Teleport are good aim and to be within its range. Napalm 'blobs' are easy to dodge (you can literally run away). Teleport does/allows for the same except it continues to 'scale' via not having a function that can be hindered by constantly raising enemy levels. If you can aim your blade storm, you could have aimed a teleport.

Fireball is a projectile.  It is worth noting that for those of us who have weaker computers any abilities that require a target like Teleport, Soul Punch, etc. are much more difficult to use because the lower frame rates we get limit the amount of times we can poll the skill, same as melee weapons and semi-auto guns.  Additionally Teleport won't save you if you're already bleeding or on fire.  

[SquirmyBurrito]

Fireball is a projectile.  It is worth noting that for those of us who have weaker computers any abilities that require a target like Teleport, Soul Punch, etc. are much more difficult to use because the lower frame rates we get limit the amount of times we can poll the skill, same as melee weapons and semi-auto guns.  Additionally Teleport won't save you if you're already bleeding or on fire.  

 

Thanks for the correction, I couldn't remember and was too lazy to load up warframe and check. 

 

If you can use Blade Storm, you can use teleport.

 

I thought you were calling it an escape skill. As in getting out of there before you got hit. If you're talking about avoiding damage, Smoke Screen does that better and can be modded to last more than ~15 seconds without disabling your ability to use your weapons (which should be capable of much higher dps).

[RealPandemonium]

Thanks for the correction, I couldn't remember and was too lazy to load up warframe and check. 

 

If you can use Blade Storm, you can use teleport.

 

I thought you were calling it an escape skill. As in getting out of there before you got hit. If you're talking about avoiding damage, Smoke Screen does that better and can be modded to last more than ~15 seconds without disabling your ability to use your weapons (which should be capable of much higher dps).

I feel like we would be best buddies if we didn't disagree over the little things.

[SquirmyBurrito]

I feel like we would be best buddies if we didn't disagree over the little things.

 

We definitely chat quite a bit. I'm going to concede on Ash being completely useless. But I'll stand firm on Ash being overshadowed in all but the most specific and obscure of niches.

[TrashSpider]

O wow didn't realize my thread was still on going, guess I'll have to update it soon, once the new frames come out. 

[Achronus]

I have played quite a bit into the hour long survivals (only 3 of us)

 

Vauban is truly god tier... vs infested, I have little experience vs other factions; seems that with proper positioning he could smack-down them too.

 

Banshee, has gotten me to around 45 mins (I was at the time having video card troubles, rectified) the damage output on Sonar is a thing of beauty, eclipses Roar on just about everything but Torid, Ogris, and the like (a 6 second room lock-down for team rez is a NICE support power too), her Boom? it comes with weak sauce Low range low damage; I still mount it, but that is getting more and more tenuous as I play her. Silence... May I make a suggestion? Make it context dependent; no alarm: works as normal; alarmed: the enemy is continuously being audio spoofed into thinking they are being flanked (thus they are doing bad things like getting out of cover and check behind themselves much, a flush them from cover if you will)

 

I have used both Loki and Ash. I can see where Loki is VERY powerful later; I just prefer offense so much I like Ash better anyway.

 

Trinity... I have never hated a Warframe, this one is close; push 4 to win is just so very boring.

 

Necros, He would be very effective even with his handicaps; if his minions could get ammo/O2/mods/etc for him so he need not get close enough that his lack of CC can hurt him. Terrify, is ok. Desecrate makes him a GODLY mod farming and Survival frame (all those O2 problems just go away!)

 

Excal... I very much feel he is a bit too 'generic' (I like style to go with my Warframe) his blind is nice, but overshadowed by other frames who do better; his Ult is very nice; if it smart targeted his wasted potential to either refund unused energy (still need full power to start though), or hit tough targets more than once.

 

Oberon, his ult would be better if it picked up enemies and through them away, this serving as damage and breathing room. if the damage were applied on the lift... health dropped from the few who die would still be easily accessible. Heals? Ok. area denial?... Would be WAY better as a minimal damage high proc field (Nyx chaos as a wall!) would still need good positioning; and gunners can still shoot you from the other side of the field.

 

Zephyr... she is very tough very fast and even tougher vs Infested. She (like Vauban) can defend vs infested for a VERY long time with tornadoes; does she fall short in the long haul? yes, but she is a very much tougher frame to compensate.

 

Ember... I love the style of Ult, I never use her other powers. Fireball, is just so 'meh' Flameblast's ring of fire can keep infested at bay (making defense vs infested a cinch) until later when the enemies ramp up (fire? LOL), Accelerant is a shorter lasting version of blind, that also makes things somewhat more flammable (grineer Ferrite armor, it laughs at your puny fire boost) so I use Ember for Oxium Farming; which she is godly at. (Corpus Kappa FTW)

 

I have played the others, but i can't be bothered to review them now.