Who Is The New Useless Frame?

[SquirmyBurrito]

-snip-

 

Two things:

1. Calm down.

2. Lrn2Loki.

 

Loki's health, shield, and armor values being low does not matter. It doesn't. Not even remotely. Enemies can't hurt you if they can't see you. Enemies can't hurt you if they can't reach you. Enemies can't shoot at you if they have no guns. Loki's first ability is amazing against infested, and paired with his ult it is amazing against the other factions as well. Loki not having a damaging skill doesn't matter. It really doesn't. Damage skills fall-off anyway, none of Loki's skills suffer from this problem.

[(PSN)SUZOOKUS_MAXIMUS]

So if Loki is in the "God Tier" (or other frames mentioned for that category) are you going to bring 4 of them to whatever mission you are referring to? (3, 2, or maybe just 1?) And if you aren't going to bring 4, why not because IMO "god tier" means they are super awesome and you should be able to do it with only that frame and if not you are relying on other frames for support and then not actually the top tier.

[SquirmyBurrito]

So if Loki is in the "God Tier" (or other frames mentioned for that category) are you going to bring 4 of them to whatever mission you are referring to? (3, 2, or maybe just 1?) And if you aren't going to bring 4, why not because IMO "god tier" means they are super awesome and you should be able to do it with only that frame and if not you are relying on other frames for support and then not actually the top tier.

 

4 Loki's in one mission is amazing. All enemies are disarmed, and are stuck swarming around well placed Decoys. While we either run around invisible or sit somewhere where we can't be reached.

Edited January 22, 2014 by SquirmyBurrito

[ReiganCross]

Two things:

1. Calm down.

2. Lrn2Loki.

 

Loki's health, shield, and armor values being low does not matter. It doesn't. Not even remotely. Enemies can't hurt you if they can't see you. Enemies can't hurt you if they can't reach you. Enemies can't shoot at you if they have no guns. Loki's first ability is amazing against infested, and paired with his ult it is amazing against the other factions as well. Loki not having a damaging skill doesn't matter. It really doesn't. Damage skills fall-off anyway, none of Loki's skills suffer from this problem.

 

I wish you luck using this brilliant stroke of master strategy against the Stalker. Or at least i hope you brought a very big gun. (Oh, and in the spirit of not losing the habit: STALKER SUCKS!!)

Edited January 22, 2014 by ReiganCross

[SquirmyBurrito]

I wish you luck using this brilliant stroke of master strategy against the Stalker. Or at least i hope you brought a very big gun. (Oh, and in the spirit of not losing the habit: STALKER SUCKS!!)

 

I always carry a big/powerful gun, just in case.

[Archwizard]

I'd probably put Rhino in the God tier too; he's at the peak of perfection at this point, I don't think anyone can think of anything to improve upon (nor would they want to).

 

Frost and Nekros... I dunno about their positions at all. Their problem at the moment is they each have one skill that makes them incredible at one mission type each (Defenses due to Snow Globe and Survivals due to Desecrate respectively, to the point where it's even foolish to play without one unless the map is Infested), but they're pretty darn useless anywhere else since their other three skills are lackluster. Part of me feels they should be lower than where they are, but it would be more accurate to just make a separate little box off to the side. It's a similar issue with Banshee and Nyx, but their "one trick" is useful in a number of mission types. Add to that Nekros' poor stats for his role on top of his "one trick"'s reliance on corpses and RNG, and you're in for a hot mess.

 

Oberon... I wouldn't put him any higher than mid-tier as he stands. His big issues are his lack of CC to keep enemies within Hallowed Ground, and Renewal's short duration (if you put on Fleeting Expertise to increase it, you damage Hallowed Ground substantially, and you still don't fix the issue of it ending the moment your ally reaches health cap). Oberon's Radiation/Impact combos are unusual, but his ultimate is more potent than most (I think it's at #6 in unaided damage?).

 

Ember needs more utility, and perhaps some defense; right now all she has is a radial stagger (which increases fire damage, but given Damage 2.0 that's more of a self-buff). Let's face it, she'll never be as much Glass Cannon as Nova is- though the self-damaging Fireballs won't help the "glass" part one bit.

 

Ash and Valkyr need their ultimates touched on: Bladestorm needs to select targets as it goes rather than the start of the cast (so you don't waste 100 energy killing three guys while your allies kill the other dozen); Hysteria needs larger, wider, sweeping claw attacks that hit multiple targets per swing rather than using the single-target punching animations; and both need speed boosts to be anything more than a waste of the caster's energy. Being that I don't actually have a Valkyr (though I was in-session for every level my buddy got on his) I don't feel I'm personally at liberty to say more for her beyond repeatedly seeing enemies sidestep just out of range of her melee attacks, though the forums have some interesting thoughts about Warcry and Paralysis.

 

Personally, I think Venom should deal Gas damage with a 100% proc chance on detonation (to "revive" Venom stacking); Desecrate should be reworked into a Viral damage Life Drain that drops orbs from enemies based on their health percentage; Electric Shield should become an object Volt can pick up and drop at will to synergize with Speed; Renewal and Energy Siphon should swap duration-scaling mechanics, and all other non-"entity-based" DoTs/HoTs (so, Venom basically) should gain more ticks (of equal damage) based on Duration, rather than spreading out the same maximum damage over a longer period.

 

Anything more than that, you'll have to look at the list I've already compiled.

Edited January 22, 2014 by Archwizard

[Arlayn]

4 Loki's in one mission is amazing. All enemies are disarmed, and are stuck swarming around well placed Decoys. While we either run around invisible or sit somewhere where we can't be reached.

yeah... Till those 4 loki's slam face first into a ODS around 30 mins... Those 4 Loki's won't even make it to the 75 min mark.

[Arlayn]

 

Frost and Nekros... I dunno about their positions at all. Their problem at the moment is they each have one skill that makes them incredible at one mission type each (Defenses due to Snow Globe and Survivals due to Desecrate respectively, to the point where it's even foolish to play without one unless the map is Infested), but they're pretty darn useless anywhere else since their other three skills are lackluster. Part of me feels they should be lower than where they are, but it would be more accurate to just make a separate little box off to the side. It's a similar issue with Banshee and Nyx, but their "one trick" is useful in a number of mission types. Add to that Nekros' poor stats for his role on top of his "one trick"'s reliance on corpses and RNG, and you're in for a hot mess.

 

Oberon... I wouldn't quite put him in low tier, but I wouldn't put him any higher than mid-tier as he stands. His big issues are his lack of CC to keep enemies within Hallowed Ground, and Renewal's short duration (if you put on Fleeting Expertise to increase it, you damage Hallowed Ground substantially, and you still don't fix the issue of it ending the moment your ally reaches health cap). Oberon's Radiation/Impact combos are unusual, but his ultimate is more potent than most (I think it's at #6 in unaided damage?).

 

Depending on the build Oberon, and Nekros can be the most violent power houses in the game... The problem is you described both these frames in their defensive nature...

 

Unlike me who built Oberon for masscare, and heal, and built Nekros for 100% Shinigami mode... When I go Nekros I become the most brutal thing in the game... Even my own clan can't believe how powerful my Nekros is. There Nekros just dies all over the place. While my Nekros can hold off hordes, revive the team, and just go God Mod on whatever enemy I please... The real tactics is in using ONLY soul punch, and shadows of the dead to mow through entire armies... I can get Nekros extremely far in a survival mission going all offensive, and quite far in Defense missions as well...

 

Then again it depends on playstyle. Some people players are good at playing defensive, and I am good at going all Black Templar with a Nekros!

 

edit: Oberon on the other hand I just spam heal, and crush/desecrate lol... that's just what it is a crush, and desecrate put together. Not even sure why you would use a useless ability like hallowed ground it BARELY does anything.

Edited January 22, 2014 by Arlayn

[laubauflo]

People who don't know how to valkyr...

[PootyTang]

 

My Personal opinion

This seems more accurate.

[Arlayn]

This seems more accurate.

nah... Excalibur should be Mid tier, and Nekros should be high tier.

[SquirmyBurrito]

yeah... Till those 4 loki's slam face first into a ODS around 30 mins... Those 4 Loki's won't even make it to the 75 min mark.

 

Explain.

[Kempeck]

Because with the right build he can do infested defense or survival indefinitely.

Also I'd put Loki and Rhino up near the top. Banshee near the bottom.

Do you have build notes?  I'd love to see this

[Arlayn]

Explain.

1. Decoy will fall apart faster

2. Switch teleport takes a lot of energy just to move out of the frying pan, and into the oven

3. Invisibility is great and all till a horde of toxic infested start marching around

4. Radial disarm does nothing

 

Your time limited, and those pods are not reliable. Eventually energy will start getting low, you will become desperate, and make risky moves pushing through crowds of Toxic Ancients risking death. Possibly even trapping yourselves in a bad spot where getting to the exit becomes impossible, and the entire squad ends up putting all their faith into one person to get away in time to the exit...

 

The Worst possible scenario is being surrounded by infested without an AOE attack.

[Ritchel]

i'd like mag to be put as high tier for corpus as she destroys their shield (the higher their shield the larger dmg and aoe) aswell as volt should be on high tier too. for his aoe-spammable-1stskill and is very useful with his shield making him longer to last on battles, added with volt shield that makes him a real-gunner frame with added atk bonus, last skill is "okay" if theres electronic equipments around it does pretty cool effects and damage aswell...

 

this representation is very much correct from what ive experienced

 

the high tier has, the best utility/and or with the best offence and crowd control making them very useful in all situations plus crowd control making the game very "easy" to play but still enjoy-able while the lower tier has the useless utility and bad offence

 

******I think if the DE wants ALL frames to be useful and all be inside the mid tier, either it should have the following criteria 

-everyframe needs to have utility and is useful

-last skill offence WITH added DEBUFF...

 

just look at how you did with volt he doesnt have an imba finisher but still pretty much wellrounded, i quite agree with the threadstarter maiking volt to mid only,

he would be on HIGH tier if HIS last skill will have A DEBUFF example: "enemies are shocked and has -80% less acuracy" useful right?

 

-banshee's case, she is good with her damage multiplier skill that you can easily take down a lvl 75 void mobs (since my brakk does very little damage to heavy gunners there as so as other weapons too) but her problem is, face it. people rarely go lvl 50~75+ mobs and high lvl missions fetch same rewards as the same as lower lvls...high lvl offence where banshee is usefull, 1st skill stuns, but very short in range and short stuns.. her last skill should have a debuff also to make it usefull, up to you d.e. what youd like, but im telling you having debuff on last skill will be great!

 

-ember should be in mid tier, as you can see her accelerant stuns making it a nice utility and she can do well on offence up to lvl 40ish with accelerant debuff is active... the problem is youll be OUT OF energy while spamming accelerant if you dont kill and spawn energy enuff... ring of fire is useless and infested maps are gone and you only use ember for finishing operationinfested fast while spamming ur last skill haha.

 

-valkyr is at the bottom and i 100% agree to this, you rarely see her on missions like banshee lol, if you see her though and ask the user why are you using valkyr hes going to tell you for lvling purposes or he is still trying her, but in the end, people dump her for her uselessness -

her last skill is good with healing herself while being invincible... but when she attacks with hysteria, is very laughable with it having a punch animation while its a CLAW... if her hysteria has more cooler-berserkry animation with BIGGER and WIDER range WHILE every hit of her claw makes mobs bleed like your bad month period she will be usefull......... to tell the truth i got dissapointed when i saw it only targets 1 enemy at a time, i thought it'll be like slashing thru enemies with furious animation but turned out like a floating cat doing punches. lol, she only needs this change

her 1st skill is allright.. 

 

 

-rhino is allright, he's crowd control for high lvl with stomp stasis and strengthening the party's atks with roar, iron skin should be as it is, but how i wish iron skin has more cooler appearance when casted...

 

-oberon....hes k.. i feel neutral for him

 

 

if you are doing high level defence it should always be a teamwork with each with his own frame to go with...imagine if all frames has debuff on their finishers, almost all of em is viable for defence and high lvl runs, we need is ability debuffs added on all frames!!

[SquirmyBurrito]

1. Decoy will fall apart faster

2. Switch teleport takes a lot of energy just to move out of the frying pan, and into the oven

3. Invisibility is great and all till a horde of toxic infested start marching around

4. Radial disarm does nothing

 

Your time limited, and those pods are not reliable. Eventually energy will start getting low, you will become desperate, and make risky moves pushing through crowds of Toxic Ancients risking death. Possibly even trapping yourselves in a bad spot where getting to the exit becomes impossible, and the entire squad ends up putting all their faith into one person to get away in time to the exit...

 

The Worst possible scenario is being surrounded by infested without an AOE attack.

 

1. They can't hit what they can't reach.

2. Hardly, Loki can use fleeting expertise.

3. Only if you stupidly wander into them which applies to all frames who aren't invulnerable. 

4. Not a problem, just don't use it.

 

How is that even supposed to happen? Loki can career guns too.

[TrashSpider]

*Added poll's

[-CM-Syein]

People who don't know how to valkyr...

people who haven't play other frames enough to compared other frames with valkyr......... 

[Shanicus]

I wish you luck using this brilliant stroke of master strategy against the Stalker. Or at least i hope you brought a very big gun. (Oh, and in the spirit of not losing the habit: STALKER SUCKS!!)

Decoy + Switch Teleport. He's surprisingly bad at catching up on that.

If that still doesn't work, 1.75 movement speed with Rush means you can just out run Stalker all day. Poor guy is slow as hell.

 

1. Decoy will fall apart faster

2. Switch teleport takes a lot of energy just to move out of the frying pan, and into the oven

3. Invisibility is great and all till a horde of toxic infested start marching around

4. Radial disarm does nothing

 

Your time limited, and those pods are not reliable. Eventually energy will start getting low, you will become desperate, and make risky moves pushing through crowds of Toxic Ancients risking death. Possibly even trapping yourselves in a bad spot where getting to the exit becomes impossible, and the entire squad ends up putting all their faith into one person to get away in time to the exit...

 

The Worst possible scenario is being surrounded by infested without an AOE attack.

Not to poke a hole in the logic there, but I don't think having 4 of the same Frame will work out so well in ODS. Hell, 4 Trinity's will suffer just as much as 4 Loki's, just with less deaths and more asphyxiation.

ODS (and things like T3/High end survivals anyway) aren't really a good show of a frames power because going the distance in them comes down to co-operation and balanced teams, not mad face-rolling with whatever you can pick up that someone told you was super-powerful. A team with a Nekros and Valkyr in it will do much better than a Team that consists of 4 of the same frame.

[Arlayn]

 

 

 

-oberon....hes k.. i feel neutral for him

 

 

if you are doing high level defence it should always be a teamwork with each with his own frame to go with...imagine if all frames has debuff on their finishers, almost all of em is viable for defence and high lvl runs, we need is ability debuffs added on all frames!!

 

I don't know about you, but I kinda like how Oberon's 4th ability kills drops health. Better than a debuff. Him and Nekros teaming up= Health orbs for everyone! Nekros doesn't need a debuff. His shadows of the dead are like a superior version of Decoy. Enemies attack them, and they fight back. They also act as a superior shield to railgun Moa unlike Frost's snowglobe.

 

 

1. They can't hit what they can't reach.

2. Hardly, Loki can use fleeting expertise.

3. Only if you stupidly wander into them which applies to all frames who aren't invulnerable. 

4. Not a problem, just don't use it.

 

How is that even supposed to happen? Loki can career guns too.

you mean carry, or did you really mean Loki making a career with guns? Unless Loki is planning to go head to head with Darvo in the market I doubt he would get far without Stalker coming for him next.

 

1. Decoys still fall apart insanely fast, and if they can't reach it they ignore it. That's how the AI works.

2. Even so its still taking a lot of energy for putting you in greater danger. Keeping your eyes peeled on your surrondings is 101. By teleporting you have clipped a portion of you view. As you teleport the things you would have seen at the corners of the screen would be skipped. Meaning on your left, or right an ancient could have entered, and you would have no idea it had. By moving as normal you have complete 100% view. Full alertness to your situation and no location, or possible view point skipped on the move.

 

3. If the hallway is packed with toxic ancients, and your running low on ammo, and oxygen what is it you do? This is very tricky. When the path is small, and no way to wall run over them. You need to get the pod, or you need to get tot he exit, but can't. If you use up your ammo now there is no telling what ahead... Do you take the risk? Do you use up your ammo? What if the next few areas along the way are tighter, and worse? Now your stuck with only suicidal options.

 

4. No AOE for infested is a nightmare situation. Unless your Trinity with the immortal blessing your screwed...

 

 

Not to poke a hole in the logic there, but I don't think having 4 of the same Frame will work out so well in ODS. Hell, 4 Trinity's will suffer just as much as 4 Loki's, just with less deaths and more asphyxiation.

ODS (and things like T3/High end survivals anyway) aren't really a good show of a frames power because going the distance in them comes down to co-operation and balanced teams, not mad face-rolling with whatever you can pick up that someone told you was super-powerful. A team with a Nekros and Valkyr in it will do much better than a Team that consists of 4 of the same frame.

lol... I never said 4 of the same frame, but the other guy did say 4 of the same Loki(which is pure suicide)... Which in the case of 4 of the same warframe.... 4 Vauban, or 4 Rhino is quite brutal lol...

[Archwizard]

Unlike me who built Oberon for masscare, and heal, and built Nekros for 100% Shinigami mode... When I go Nekros I become the most brutal thing in the game... Even my own clan can't believe how powerful my Nekros is. There Nekros just dies all over the place. While my Nekros can hold off hordes, revive the team, and just go God Mod on whatever enemy I please... The real tactics is in using ONLY soul punch, and shadows of the dead to mow through entire armies... I can get Nekros extremely far in a survival mission going all offensive, and quite far in Defense missions as well...

 

Not even sure why you would use a useless ability like hallowed ground it BARELY does anything.

 

Somehow I don't really believe you (and I suspect I'm not the only one), considering Soul Punch has next to no AoE and Nekros's army just kinda does whatever they want (they're not useless, but they're better used as meat shields than extra firepower).

Granting, I don't know what level missions you are referring to, especially as you're saying you can mow through a horde with Soul Punch. Nor do I know your build, or how much more effective the same mods would be in any other frame's hands.

 

As for "why would you use Hallowed Ground", the simple answer is most people don't and it needs improvement all the same; the more complex answer is that DE shouldn't encourage players to diminish one skill to improve another within the same skillset- you know, in case they decide to come back to it and fix it.

[Arlayn]

 

Somehow I don't really believe you (and I suspect I'm not the only one), considering Soul Punch has next to no AoE and Nekros's army just kinda does whatever they want (they're not useless, but they're better used as meat shields than extra firepower).

Granting, I don't know what level missions you are referring to, especially as you're saying you can mow through a horde with Soul Punch. Nor do I know your build, or how much more effective the same mods would be in any other frame's hands.

 

As for "why would you use Hallowed Ground", the simple answer is most people don't and it needs improvement all the same; the more complex answer is that DE shouldn't encourage players to diminish one skill to improve another within the same skillset- you know, in case they decide to come back to it and fix it.

its not about the mods. Its how you use it...

 

As a legendary warrior once said...

 

"I'll show you that a superior mobile suit has its limits when it goes up against a superior pilot!" - Char Aznable

[Shyvorix]

I always hate it when topics like this pop up in game forums. The amount of in-thread drama is

astounding.

Really you should be able to play any damn frame you want, even in endgame if you have the right mods for it.

Damn, I even play Valkyr when I go into ODs late onward after the lvl 50+ enemies spawn, her Hysteria, even though single targeted, the I-frame can help tremendously when barging through groups.

And works well as a failsafe in case anything goes to hell.

I can't say for all frames because I have only played about 1/3rd so far all well enough to know, but I will say that any frame can be viable in any situation, it's just that some combos work better depending on that situation.

Edited January 22, 2014 by Shyvorix

[ReiganCross]

its not about the mods. Its how you use it...

 

As a legendary warrior once said...

 

"I'll show you that a superior mobile suit has its limits when it goes up against a superior pilot!" - Char Aznable

 

If i remember correctly, he then proceeded to completely waste his mobile suit against the "superior" gundam. So maybe not the best quote to bring about...

[Shanicus]

lol... I never said 4 of the same frame, but the other guy did say 4 of the same Loki(which is pure suicide)... Which in the case of 4 of the same warframe.... 4 Vauban, or 4 Rhino is quite brutal lol...

In that case, a single Loki can still work in ODS as a runner for oxygen. You know, play to his strengths - he can't stand around and Radial Disarm ancients, but decoy + Invisibility + Switch Teleport can help get you around. You can run Trinity or Valkyr instead if you're worried about Toxic Ancients, but you can either divert them with Decoy or Switch with them (you don't take damage from their cloud during switch) if they're in the way.

As for the 4 Loki thing... well, either they're just screwing around with an ODS run or they're not the best at the game. 4 Loki's on a defense mission, however... it could work, though it'd require a bit of running around. Everything outside 60+ Survival missions and 50+ Defense missions the Loki Quad could pull off (just like a 4x Rhino or 4x Vauban).