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Having a large Globe (especially for stretch users) with only 3500 health? Not exactly the smartest idea in the world. It works in games like Halo's Bubble Shield because in those games, power of each weapon or enemy have a limit. Here, they do not, and even without going to endless level content, T3 Defense enemies would shred it in seconds. Prepare for A LOT OF HATE from upper tier players.

 

Though I do suppose with this around, duration will be utterly useless (assuming time limit gets removed like with Iron Skin), so I can finally throw in Fleeting Expertise for some low costing, but sadly useless globes.

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Nice!

Definitely a step in the right direction imo the invincible globe of IWin always seemed a bit odd to me.

 

Though the health does seem a bit low, I'll have to see how that works in game.

Even still I have faith that should it prove to be too low (ignoring all the tears), it will be improved.

This is not a buff. This is a waking nightmare. Just think about it more. This is insane. This is not tears. Its terrible. I don't even.. what?

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Having a large Globe (especially for stretch users) with only 3500 health? Not exactly the smartest idea in the world. It works in games like Halo's Bubble Shield because in those games, power of each weapon or enemy have a limit. Here, they do not, and even without going to endless level content, T3 Defense enemies would shred it in seconds. Prepare for A LOT OF HATE from upper tier players.

 

Though I do suppose with this around, duration will be utterly useless (assuming time limit gets removed like with Iron Skin), so I can finally throw in Fleeting Expertise for some low costing, but sadly useless globes.

 

No hate from me. Just a lot of ugly decisions to make. I'm not sure what i'm gonna do yet.

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Now Frost is sometimes even a must-have on high-level defences. After this nerf he'll be... Well...

 

Defence? Nope, his Snowglobe is worthless.

Any Other Mission Type? Nope, he's too slow.

 

Instead of being useful in at least three game modes (Survival, Defence and M Defence) he'll be useless in every game mode.

 

Stop trying to create a jack-of-all-trades. He WON'T BE ONE

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Alright, lets do some simple math:
 

20 enemies on a defense mission is actually extremely low, but we'll use it as a base line. 

At around level 20, your average level of difficulty where you start actually requiring Frost's Globe to survive a defense mission properly, they will deal ~15 damage per shot (we'll use 15 flat as a baseline), and generally shoot in volleys of 10-20 shots. 

 

20 mobs shooting 20 shots for 15 damage each... 6000 damage in one volley from each enemy on the defense mission.  I don't think your current globe even stood a chance... that's not even a full second it stayed alive...

 

Ok, lets buff globe to a base hp of 10k, and throw on max power str mods (+129% power str with MAXED BLINDING RAGE (only true endgame players have)), giving us 22,900 hp.  Ok, so in 4 volleys from 20 mobs on the defense map, we just destroyed our 22,900 hp globe that cost us 85 energy to cast (excluding power efficiency mods).  Remind me how, without a trinity throwing out 229 energy per 4 seconds (see: http://warframe.wikia.com/wiki/User:Brizingr5/Profile#Warframes Trinity's Energy Build), that is supposed to be sustained for any non-0 amount of time?

 

Even further, lets go to a tier 3 defense mission where we have level 40+ enemies.  How on earth do you think even that 22,900 hp globe is going to stay alive longer than 3 seconds.  Yes, the extremely pro teams can do the mission without a globe, but they have very well modded weapons and are killing enemies before they get a chance, not enduring the defense mission.  How do you expect your casual players (the ones bellow 400 hours of gameplay who play for less than 4 to 5 hours a day) to have a chance?  I respect the challange, but we can give ourselves this constraint without you guys ruining a mechanic from the game. 

 

Even as it is now, Snow Globe is not OP.  It does not have a hard-cc, so any sort of heavy/CC unit that gets inside the globe can knock players out, or keep them knocked down where more mobs flood inside the globe.  Once mobs are inside the globe, players are defenseless to that 6k damage per volley all these mobs start spewing on them.  Snow globe, as it is now, is only useful when combo'd with another form of hard CC, and if anybody has been paying attention to how this game works, most combo's in this game are ridiculously OP (see: Nova's M-prime + Snipers, Anti-Matter Drop's entire mechanics, Trinity's Support, via Blessing and Energy Vampire, Embers Accelerant + Ignis, Saryn's Venom and punch-through weapons, Mag's Bullet Attractor and Excalibur's Radial Javelin, so on and so-forth). 

 

P.S.: Sorry if this sounds a bit edgy, nothing is meant personally offensively, I just kind of find it rather frightening how this was thought of as a good idea.  If a staff member could provide the math and line of thinking behind why this was a good idea, I would gladly critique it. 

Edited by lstalri
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Snowglobe: Now has health that is increased with fusion (currently: 1500,2500,3000,3500)

Snowglobe being a solely duration based skill created issues of viability of other frames in the "Defense" mission types, as well as a skew towards pace of gameplay.

 

The goal is to get Snowglobe, and Frost overall, in a place of power and action, but does not render gameplay optional, but we need everyone's experiences to get it right as we continue to make changes. 

 

Clarification/FAQ 1: Will Strength Mods positively affect Snowglobes health after this change? Yes, they will!

I'm more than fine with this direction for frost.

However I am very concerned about the specific numbers used.

At this time warframe has a HUGE problem: Powers based damage output or damage taken tend to scale poorly.

Many of us are still waiting on a more direct fix to this problem.

 

Also, since you guys got rid of duration based invincibility on rhinos iron skin and are now getting rid of duration based invincibility on frosts snowglobe does this mean the duration based invincibility on Valkyrs hysteria will be reconsidered? I'm not trying to get into whether I think it should or shouldn't be in this thread I am just watching the patterns and asking what you guys are moving toward.

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Alright, lets do some simple math:

 

20 enemies on a defense mission is actually extremely low, but we'll use it as a base line. 

At around level 20, your average level of difficulty where you start actually requiring Frost's Globe to survive a defense mission properly, they will deal ~15 damage per shot (we'll use 15 flat as a baseline), and generally shoot in volleys of 10-20 shots. 

 

20 mobs shooting 20 shots for 15 damage each... 6000 damage in one volley from each enemy on the defense mission.  I don't think your current globe even stood a chance... that's not even a full second it stayed alive...

 

Ok, lets buff globe to a base hp of 10k, and throw on max power str mods (+129% power str with MAXED BLINDING RAGE (only true endgame players have)), giving us 22,900 hp.  Ok, so in 4 volleys from 20 mobs on the defense map, we just destroyed our 22,900 hp globe that cost us 85 energy to cast (excluding power efficiency mods).  Remind me how, without a trinity throwing out 229 energy per 4 seconds (see: http://warframe.wikia.com/wiki/User:Brizingr5/Profile#Warframes Trinity's Energy Build), that is supposed to be sustained for any non-0 amount of time?

 

Even further, lets go to a tier 3 defense mission where we have level 40+ enemies.  How on earth do you think even that 22,900 hp globe is going to stay alive longer than 3 seconds.  Yes, the extremely pro teams can do the mission without a globe, but they have very well modded weapons and are killing enemies before they get a chance, not enduring the defense mission.  How do you expect your casual players (the ones bellow 400 hours of gameplay who play for less than 4 to 5 hours a day) to have a chance?  I respect the challange, but we can give ourselves this constraint without you guys ruining a mechanic from the game. 

 

Even as it is now, Snow Globe is not OP.  It does not have a hard-cc, so any sort of heavy/CC unit that gets inside the globe can knock players out, or keep them knocked down where more mobs flood inside the globe.  Once mobs are inside the globe, players are defenseless to that 6k damage per volley all these mobs start spewing on them.  Snow globe, as it is now, is only useful when combo'd with another form of hard CC, and if anybody has been paying attention to how this game works, most combo's in this game are ridiculously OP (see: Nova's M-prime + Snipers, Anti-Matter Drop's entire mechanics, Trinity's Support, via Blessing and Energy Vampire, Embers Accelerant + Ignis, Saryn's Venom and punch-through weapons, Mag's Bullet Attractor and Excalibur's Radial Javelin, so on and so-forth). 

 

P.S.: Sorry if this sounds a bit edgy, nothing is meant personally offensively, I just kind of find it rather frightening how this was thought of as a good idea.  If a staff member could provide the math and line of thinking behind why this was a good idea, I would gladly critique it. 

This guy gets it. +1

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Uh, DE, if you're going to Nerf Snowglobe, then it is absolutely imperative that you buff the health of objectives we're supposed to defend.

 

Things like T3 Defense Crypods, the Cicero Injector, and other similar objects are just too darn squishy in the first place (which is why we felt so attracted to Snowglobe in the first place).

 

Those things need to not die in 3 seconds should anything look in its general direction. Seriously.

 

EDIT: Actually, buffing the health of the objective won't help either; because T3 stuff does way too stinking much damage, you could x10 the health and the stupid thing would "die" in a few seconds anyways.

 

No, what the objectives need is Damage Resistance. At least 80%.

Or perhaps they should have it scale with the enemies, like it's health/shields/armor, scale up every 5 waves or so, that way no matter what it dies at a steady rate so to speak. Like if the enemies are level 6000 then the pod is also level 6000 and has armor/shields/health to match.

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Teamwork confirmed?

Not really, if the goal was to make other frames for appealing in defense this is not the answer. Now it will be Loki+Vauban+Trinity+Rhino/Nova in defense. Anything else would be subpar. How does nerfing frost even make other frames better for defense? it makes no sense! Why not buff other frames instead? Like Excalibur, Valkyr or banshee maybe even Oberon.

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I'm split on this one. While it does get rid of the 'snowglobe and afk' mentality it hits frost's only really useful skill and this makes me sad. However, his other skills finally get their much needed tune-up, which makes me happy.

 

The best course of action here is to sit back and wait for new frost, try him out and then give feedback.

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as long as max snowglobe is a decent effectiveness vs level 38 enemies, then the skill is fine

How about you go try to kill yourself. Are you running always invis loki and dont know damage output of single enemy? Ohh wait you never went for endless defence/survival... So that you would know, T3 void Last 5 waves are lvl50-lvl65. Go against that.

Looking at this i am afraid Nyx Loki and Trinity will get nerfs as well. Vauban nerfed, Frost nerfed. Just fantastic. I dont want U12 anymore

TIP: DAMAGE INSTANCES NOT DAMAGE TAKEN LIMIT at least

Edited by Zarlockk
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I'm split on this one. While it does get rid of the 'snowglobe and afk' mentality it hits frost's only really useful skill and this makes me sad. However, his other skills finally get their much needed tune-up, which makes me happy.

 

The best course of action here is to sit back and wait for new frost, try him out and then give feedback.

The best course of action is not to touch frost until DE can put time into balancing him.

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About Snow Globe:
Sure Frost made higher level defenses much easier.

But is he alone enough for wave 40+?
NO! He has to rely on other frames regarding damage and so on. So other frames are still viable and needed.

And try to think about what will happen:
If someone still wants to play Frost in a defense he won´t be able to do any other thing than standing on the pod and spamming 3 as on higher waves 3500 damage to an area like Snow Globe is a matter of seconds. Sounds like fun to me.
And what will his purpose then be? Another (weaker) damagedealer? I think we have enough Frames to do that part of the work and propably beeing more reliable there...

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Not really, if the goal was to make other frames for appealing in defense this is not the answer. Now it will be Loki+Vauban+Trinity+Rhino/Nova in defense. Anything else would be subpar. How does nerfing frost even make other frames better for defense? it makes no sense! Why not buff other frames instead? Like Excalibur, Valkyr or banshee maybe even Oberon.

 +1 to you my friend i have saryn/ash/trinity they have to make better the other frames

whithout nerf things -.-"

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