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PrickleyPete

Update 7.x Weapon Balance Notes

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People need to realize you can't have exclusive weapons outclassing others. If I joined after closed beta to be screwed cause I didn't join before It would leave bad taste in my mouth and might leave right then and there. With that said why does lato vandal even exist it has terrible stats lol.

The Braton Vandal's "outclassing" involved having, um... about 4% higher DPS and 10% better ammunition efficiency.

Does it outclass the Braton? Yes. Did it do so in any way that was even remotely visible or important? No.

The only time it'd ever be visible would be if you had two players with identical mods, identical levels, and identical skill, using identical Warframes, the guy with a Braton Vandal would have slightly better stats on the end-mission stats board. And this is why I wonder why the nerf was even thrown in. Especially now that with its new damage it's actually somewhat worse than the Braton.

Edited by MJ12

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The Braton Vandal's "outclassing" involved having, um... about 4% higher DPS and 10% better ammunition efficiency.

Does it outclass the Braton? Yes. Did it do so in any way that was even remotely visible or important? No.

The only time it'd ever be visible would be if you had two players with identical mods, identical levels, and identical skill, using identical Warframes, the guy with a Braton Vandal would have slightly better stats on the end-mission stats board. And this is why I wonder why the nerf was even thrown in. Especially now that with its new damage it's actually somewhat worse than the Braton.

It's still better. New player comes on and asks whats the best weapon for his style and people respond with vandal branton. When he asks how do you get one he learns he can't and then quits game. People having a better weapon that you can never have tends to &!$$ people off even if it's only slightly.

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It's still better. New player comes on and asks whats the best weapon for his style and people respond with vandal branton. When he asks how do you get one he learns he can't and then quits game. People having a better weapon that you can never have tends to &!$$ people off even if it's only slightly.

Yeah, people are going to tell him 'get a weapon you can't get'. If a player is so obsessive about the 4% theoretical DPS gain a Vandal would have given him he's either: 1. A powergamer who isn't going to quit the game just because he can't get the most theoretically optimal build, or... 2. A toxic customer you don't want anyways because he's likely to be an entitled jerk who does nothing but drive people away.

Also, plenty of games have exclusive equipment which is 'better' than non-exclusive equipment available at that time and still do pretty well. The important thing to remember is that the Braton Vandal, as good as it is, wasn't exactly the end-game best weapon. The Braton Vandal was not even close to the best gun in the game. You have the Hek, the Gorgon, the Boltor, the buffed Strun, the Paris and Snipetron. The Gorgon's also a heavy automatic rifle too (as is the Boltor), so it's not exactly like there's no choice for a guy who likes automatic weapons. And just because the Vandal is CBT-exclusive doesn't mean there won't be weapons with similar stats and limited-time offers. Maybe a Braton Gothic?

Getting a tiny boost in theoretical peak DPS because you were around for an exclusive offer isn't even close to unreasonable.

Edited by MJ12

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It's still better. New player comes on and asks whats the best weapon for his style and people respond with vandal branton. When he asks how do you get one he learns he can't and then quits game. People having a better weapon that you can never have tends to &!$$ people off even if it's only slightly.

Does it even matter? Akbolto outclasses either of them hard right now. It's silly going to all the trouble of these weapon balances without addressing the mod imbalance that makes these changes meaningless.

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Crit rate doesn't seem to work at all. I put a max Point Strike mod on my Braton Vandal. +45% crit chance. I see a crit maybe once or twice per mag.

45%. OF your current crit rate. So give a 45 mag you should be seeing either 4 or 5 per mag on average. Truth is that crit mods are not worth the mod power to use. They are no where as valuable as other mods except on a set few pieces.

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It got buffed in update 7 lol. Unless somehow the mod changes specifically hurts latron more then others. At one time I was using it for a while but it was outclassed badly by boltor so I started using that.

It's cute that you keep saying that like it's true. The BASE stats on the Latron were buffed, however it like every other gun no longer has all of the passive damage increases, crit chance increases, clip size increases, reload speed increases, and crit damage increases that they used to have. The chances of me using the Latron now are much like the chances of me using a Snipetron... next to nothing... because they have small clip sizes and cannot get to anywhere near the damage that they used to do. My Snipetron was doing over 350 damage on headshots and there's no way to get back to that currently the best I can hope for is having a base damage of around 250, but still having a crappy clip size, then maybe I could get element mods (which I still don't have fire/electric, and I'm not even sure there's frost) to add on potentially more damage depending on whether or not the enemies were resistant.

Crit rate doesn't seem to work at all. I put a max Point Strike mod on my Braton Vandal. +45% crit chance. I see a crit maybe once or twice per mag.

45%. OF your current crit rate. So give a 45 mag you should be seeing either 4 or 5 per mag on average. Truth is that crit mods are not worth the mod power to use. They are no where as valuable as other mods except on a set few pieces.

In this thread they mention the Braton Vandal having 7.5% crit, and this means that 45% of that would be 3.375% crit gain... leaving you with 10.875% crit total. I have a thread up about critical strike and puncture for these exact reasons... that is a worthless amount of crit increase and puncture doesn't puncture anywhere near enough for the 15 energy it costs maxed out.

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I'm ok with the vandal now. Stop whining.

It makes sense to nerf it before the swarm of new players come in and ask just what that other guy said.

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I'm ok with the vandal now. Stop whining.

It makes sense to nerf it before the swarm of new players come in and ask just what that other guy said.

Like I said, those 'new players' who care about a measly 4% DPS difference are either powergamers who are going to make do anyways (and see it as a challenge to outdo guys with Vandals) or toxic customers who DE shouldn't give a single flying f*** about. Again, the 'benefits' of the Vandal are so tiny as to be largely nonexistent and the Braton isn't and was never a top-tier weapon, the benefits of the Vandal are basically totally cosmetic.

Remind me of all the forum whining that happened when it was revealed that the Excalibur Prime, Lato Prime, and Skana Prime were better in all ways to their equivalents? Ah right, it didn't happen. Sooo... why nerf something (and thus make people angry because their stuff got nerfed) when there's clearly no need for it?

I mean if everyone would be so angry make a "Braton-Mk2" that's rank locked to Rank 1 that costs, say, 100,000 credits and has identical stats to the Braton Vandal.

Edited by MJ12
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Like I said, those 'new players' who care about a measly 4% DPS difference are either powergamers who are going to make do anyways (and see it as a challenge to outdo guys with Vandals) or toxic customers who DE shouldn't give a single flying f*** about. Again, the 'benefits' of the Vandal are so tiny as to be largely nonexistent and the Braton isn't and was never a top-tier weapon, the benefits of the Vandal are basically totally cosmetic.

Remind me of all the forum whining that happened when it was revealed that the Excalibur Prime, Lato Prime, and Skana Prime were better in all ways to their equivalents? Ah right, it didn't happen. Sooo... why nerf something (and thus make people angry because their stuff got nerfed) when there's clearly no need for it?

I mean if everyone would be so angry make a "Braton-Mk2" that's rank locked to Rank 1 that costs, say, 100,000 credits and has identical stats to the Braton Vandal.

Seriously though... absolutely no need to nerf the primes... or the vandals to be honest.. the latos are practically the same now -_-

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Seriously though... absolutely no need to nerf the primes... or the vandals to be honest.. the latos are practically the same now -_-

Like I said, if people insist that the Vandal/etc can't be 'better' than buyable weapons, have a Braton Mk2 and a Lato Mk2 with identical stats to the Prime/Vandal versions that are rank locked to Rank 1-2 and cost 100K credits or so to buy. That does the same thing without a single nerf.

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*long sigh* I honestly realized the nerf to my Braton Vandal as soon as I started using it after Update 7 came out. The passive buffs from the upgrade tree that had been purged by the devs made the weapon a great joy to use, and the skill tree truly encouraged me to level it up, because each level(usually) would give me the option to choose a passive buff that would noticably improve the weapon; whether it be clip size, reload speed, or fire rate.

These nerfs are just adding insult to injury to ranged weapons AFTER changing the mod system/removing the upgrade tree, and honestly.. the melee weapons just feel off to me compared to how they used to be without the tree.

The new mod system only encourages someone to level a weapon so that they may add more mods/more powerful mods to their weapons, or of course for the Mastery points; but the nerfs to the weapons don't help the fact that they ALREADY aren't going to compare to what they used to be.

Sad face.

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snapback.pngCapricaSix, on 25 March 2013 - 01:38 AM, said:

+1 Lato Prime needed a buff if anything, not a nerf! Exclusive weapons should be above average otherwise there's absolutely no point in having them. Same goes for Vandals as well, but in my opinion Primes should be superior to Vandals, and they're both in desperate need of a heavy buff!

+1

+1

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I think melee "damage" and melee "fire rate" mods/cards are too much nerfed.

Max melee "damage" mod/card should be at least at +60% to keep fast pace action of original warframe.

Similar to all other mods.

+ since we now have limited mod/card slot some mods are useless (or too weak to use) like stun, crit chance/damage etc. Same for puncture mod/card (broken leveling up) = 0.1m, 0.2m etc. is useless. It should start at 1m and go to all the way up to 5m.

Edited by Strac_CRO
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I wish the weapons base stats would improve with every few levels or so, naturally, that way the weapons would at least be on par with how they used to be, then the mods would allow further customization/improvement. That way, the lvl 30 weapons wouldn't experience a true nerf to their effectiveness(compared to how they used to be). Let me put it this way, restating what I just said, say all of the nodes in the old trees were naturally added on in portions as someone levels a weapon, that way not only does the user experience a better weapon as they continue to use it, they also unlock the ability to further customize it with more energy. A 'mastery' of the weapon, if you will. "Tried and true" I think this would solve many of the issues people have with U7 changes all around, and this could even be used for frames. *Edit: To find a common ground for the 'base effectiveness' of a level 30 weapon, it would have been having a completely filled tree with no mods equipped to the weapon's mod slots, which would simply be a culmination of simple, generic buffs that greatly enhanced the weapon from its base level 1 stats.

Edited by Tysidian

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Crit rate doesn't seem to work at all. I put a max Point Strike mod on my Braton Vandal. +45% crit chance. I see a crit maybe once or twice per mag.

That's the joke, the percentual modifier is not added to the base, it's multiplied. If you have a base rate of 5% and a max mod (45%) you have a total of 7.25% crit chance.

laugh out loud

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That's the joke, the percentual modifier is not added to the base, it's multiplied. If you have a base rate of 5% and a max mod (45%) you have a total of 7.25% crit chance.

laugh out loud

That's a shame. Suppose it belongs in the useless pile, right next to puncture and Steel Fiber (lol Soulie).

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OMG well I might be picking up my Strun again! :D

Gonna rock with my Boar.

Haters gonna hate. This is all a conspiracy to make us use the @(*()$ Boar.

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Poor poor Bronco :(

Yeah, I use the Bronco as well, though I am hoping that they will eventually come out with dual broncos like they show an icon of on the loading screen. :P

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snapback.pngCapricaSix, on 25 March 2013 - 01:38 AM, said:

+1 Lato Prime needed a buff if anything, not a nerf! Exclusive weapons should be above average otherwise there's absolutely no point in having them. Same goes for Vandals as well, but in my opinion Primes should be superior to Vandals, and they're both in desperate need of a heavy buff!

+1

+1

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First post thought Id jump in the fray. I thought the point of the Lato Vandal was it being like the magnum in a sense. A high cal slow rate of fire cannon essentially. That's what I thought of the description anyways. Not sure how much it got changed but as I see it standard issue Vandal: Medium fire rate Medium damage. Lato Vandal: Slow fire rate High Damage. Is that not how its supposed to be? Like I said I don't know what changed but if it changed because someone complained that 2 guns were different, well that's just horse radish.

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What it really comes down to is if peoples guns don't make them feel like walking gods they will never be happy. A few points of damage is nothing to cry about because I have no desire or need to min max everything. If a gun doesn't work or feels useless in my hands yea then I might speak up. The latron still feels a bit iffy but I still enjoy using it. I consider it to be like a space hunting rifle myself. Yes some of the guns lost a few points here and there. Yes there was some balancing done to make the guns more even with one another. All of you are complaining that you got free weapon slots and a unique skin that you never would have had if not for the devs handing it to you. So what it doesn't shoot beams of death. So what its not killing everything in one stroke. The gun does what it needs to do to kill bad guys. The reality is NOONE likes when someone messes with their toys. I get that but this is THE DEVS game they are sorting it out to make it work the way they envisioned. Let them figure it out and offer your critisim without saying oh this gun is useless now. There is not a gun in the game I can't pick up and make work. Yea some are weaker in comparison to others but if every gun was exactly the same there would be no point. Even the different bratons in their current states all feel slightly different. They are all variations on the same gun. Just chill out weapon balancing is going to happen in the game. IN ANY GAME for that matter. They change it test it out and then react accordingly. These stats are not concrete and may change again. Getting all upset is pointless. Relax a bit let some time pass and have a little faith. Making changes big or small in a game is all about troubleshooting. If its not quite right the first time you try and try again.

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What it really comes down to is if peoples guns don't make them feel like walking gods they will never be happy.

Way to make a sweeping generalisation there bro. Personally I don't want my Vandal to make me feel like a walking God [if I did I wouldn't be happy with U7 at all lol], I just want to have some incentive to use it over the other Bratons. Currently there is none.

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