I Find It Kinda Funny...

[Blazer-X]

I'm sorry for nitpicking but according to you the community is one giant hive mind that only has one opinion. And you are wrong

 

Thank you for pointing out the obvious. Not everyone was asking for a "more difficult" game and certainly not everyone were asking for the specific ways that they try to bring this about. 

 

 People want smarter enemies. Enemies with the ability to properly combat the Tenno. They don't want the skills they love being weakened so that dumb enemies still get to kill them.

 

Blatantfool got the best point, in my opinion here. Players who want a better challenge want a something new to challenge us, not to artificially reduce our skill so that our lives are harder. We already have Nightmare Mode for artificially making us weak. 

 

Frost is still a sore spot for many of us (if the 63 pages and still ongoing argument in the development thread isn't enough of an indication). Was it a bit too useful at times? Sure. But it also let players with less defensive frames to play well in higher-level defensive games. Remember, not everyone has the platinum to spend to buy more Warframes and get them up to the end-game level. Frost acted as an equalizer to combat the some of the more intense scaling at higher tiers. With it removed now, the viability of other squishier frames in high level defense has been decreased in an overall sense. Of course, well-hardened veteran players that have been asking for the challenge can still perform just as well despite these limitations, but newer players (particularly those that don't have a stockpile of platinum) now lost a reliable way to make up for their lack of experience and resources.

[WhisperByte]

I am the Walrus.

Then sing The Walrus Song

Edited February 6, 2014 by WhisperByte

[Sasquatchias]

 Problem is a communication mix up.

 

 People want smarter enemies. Enemies with the ability to properly combat the Tenno. They don't want the skills they love being weakened so that dumb enemies still get to kill them.

 

 You'll find this to be the case almost universally. People want more complex enemy factions. Better and more interesting mission types. They're happy with their favorite frames and want a reason to be good at them.

Take all of my +1s for this.

 

But seriously, enemy A.I. needs major improvements, and they need to be better made on what they're based around.

 

One notable example are the Grineer Butchers. They are pathetically easy to kill, and the only way they get to you is by running in a straight line at you. And when they do get to you their attacks are normally so slow that you can just walk two steps away and unload onto them.

What I'd like to see is maybe them having a leaping/sliding attack, maybe be able to slide/wallrun/roll, along with increased attack speed/more attack animations/varied attacks.

 

And then there are bosses, each of which have terrible A.I. One example is phase two Lephantis, who just slowly lumbers around the arena in no real direction, constantly turning in circles trying to attack players.

[KuroNekoXlll]

i aint no frost expert but

 

when rhino received the nerf hammer, he could still roar but kickass endgame damage and time stop for pretty good CC

 

when booben received the nerf hammer, well nothing really happened pfft god tier booben is probably 10% less so but oh well

 

frost let abuncha nazis stole his bankai :l, and unlike the above 2 who met similar fates, FROST DONT GOT ANYTHING ELSE >:L

Edited February 6, 2014 by FadingFaith

[Seanjuju]

I seriously find you hilarious. You honestly think that anyone asked for artificial difficulty? What was even the motivation behind making this thread? I want enemies with advanced AI and mechanics. There is no reason to nerf a frame that has needed an entire rework for some time. One weak frame does not make the game harder, it makes that frame an outcast. Giving frost greater offensive abilities was very poorly thought out. It should be obvious that he should have more utility. 

 

This isn't difficulty and it isn't what anyone asked for. It was simply a mistake. This is not a full rework of frost, its a joke. Its not about snowglobe, its about making a weak frame even weaker for no reason.

[Tr1ples1xer]

... because otherwise these kids will start crying Chaos and Bastile/Vortex OP and soon we will play without any abilitys.

This is soo true, nerf babies are ruining the game.

 

Good thing I already have everything because if this goes on all frames abilitys will be removed because douchebags cried OP all the time. This is not dark souls god damnit !

[Agent_of_Change]

Personally, I'm torn on the issue.

 

It was needed, but why was only Frost touched? Nova needed a tweak to her uber as well - it is far more gamebreaking than Snowglobe ever was.

 

Mainly because change is iterative and they can't change everything all the time.  Maybe they are looking for good ways to adjust Nova, maybe they think shes fine.  we don't know.  Which is the point.  

 

This change which seems like a positive step in terms of a general balancing trend should be evaluated on it's merits and in relation to the game writ large and not dismissed because something else hasn't gotten a balance pass this time around.

 

 

 

But seriously, enemy A.I. needs major improvements, and they need to be better made on what they're based around.

 

One notable example are the Grineer Butchers. They are pathetically easy to kill, and the only way they get to you is by running in a straight line at you. And when they do get to you their attacks are normally so slow that you can just walk two steps away and unload onto them.

What I'd like to see is maybe them having a leaping/sliding attack, maybe be able to slide/wallrun/roll, along with increased attack speed/more attack animations/varied attacks.

 

And then there are bosses, each of which have terrible A.I. One example is phase two Lephantis, who just slowly lumbers around the arena in no real direction, constantly turning in circles trying to attack players.

 

 

While I agree with you that the AI needs some work you are functionally making the "artificial difficulty isn't difficulty" argument.  Which while valid misses part of the point.  Which is to say that some of the powers in the game were functionally "artificial skill"  namely the big ones that have already gotten hit, any power that grant full invulnerability or can be said as the ONLY reason to take a specific frame, or is REQUIRED for a type of mission falls into this.  Invulnerability without real drawbacks is not strictly speaking a good thing, it leads to lazy game play and artificially boosts 'numbers'.

 

People want to brag about getting to X round and now they are struggling before then, well forget what you used to be able to do because now you have to work about it.  DE is clearly trying to find a balance point and in Frost's case recently they brought the Balance point lower, and from the look of it more in line with the majority of other frames.

 

There is a lot of work that needs to be done, both in terms of AI, yes, but also more work of raising up the weak and hammer ing back the overly strong.  The end result being a game with real choice and no Clear Best Choice in any given situation. 

 

In summation 'Artificial skill' is just as bad if not worse than 'Artificial difficulty' because it throws the balance point out of whack.

Edited February 6, 2014 by Agent_of_Change

[Seanjuju]

Mainly because change is iterative and they can't change everything all the time.  Maybe they are looking for good ways to adjust Nova, maybe they think shes fine.  we don't know.  Which is the point.  

 

This change which seems like a positive step in terms of a general balancing trend should be evaluated on it's merits and in relation to the game writ large and not dismissed because something else hasn't gotten a balance pass this time around.

 

 

 

 

While I agree with you that the AI needs some work you are functionally making the "artificial difficulty isn't difficulty" argument.  Which while valid misses part of the point.  Which is to say that some of the powers in the game were functionally "artificial skill"  namely the big ones that have already gotten hit, any power that grant full invulnerability or can be said as the ONLY reason to take a specific frame, or is REQUIRED for a type of mission falls into this.  Invulnerability without real drawbacks is not strictly speaking a good thing, it leads to lazy game play and artificially boosts 'numbers'.

 

People want to brag about getting to X round and now they are struggling before then, well forget what you used to be able to do because now you have to work about it.  DE is clearly trying to find a balance point and in Frost's case recently they brought the Balance point lower, and from the look of it more in line with the majority of other frames.

 

There is a lot of work that needs to be done, both in terms of AI, yes, but also more work of raising up the weak and hammer ing back the overly strong.  The end result being a game with real choice and no Clear Best Choice in any given situation. 

 

In summation 'Artificial skill' is just as bad if not worse than 'Artificial difficulty' because it throws the balance point out of whack.

1. Snowglobe never granted full invulnerability.

2. No mission required snowglobe

3. No one wanted to be the frost though it did make some mission types easier

4. Very little thought went into Frost's "balance", he's not even an offensive frame but that's the direction that they've pushed him.

5. Frost is weak and has less utility in comparison to other frames even though he should have very high utility. 

6. I agree the "artificial skill" is bad but that's no excuse for half-balancing a frame in the wrong direction.

[Blasphemy77]

Blatantfool got the best point, in my opinion here.

Its the worst point and if you think not then YOU code the new AI.

 

See how hard it is to make a bot not walk into a wall for an eternity or get trapped in an endless walking loop.  Then you will know why AI doesn't change and we get nerfs and buffs instead.

[Guest Shibboleet]

1. Snowglobe never granted full invulnerability.

2. No mission required snowglobe

3. No one wanted to be the frost though it did make some mission types easier

4. Very little thought went into Frost's "balance", he's not even an offensive frame but that's the direction that they've pushed him.

5. Frost is weak and has less utility in comparison to other frames even though he should have very high utility. 

6. I agree the "artificial skill" is bad but that's no excuse for half-balancing a frame in the wrong direction.

1. You gained full invulnerability if you had a good frost (Double or Triple bubble;

)

2. Endless defense didn't require, but it did help a lot

3. Going on the tangent of record breaking, someone played frost in endless D; also see point 2

4. I think my team can still play to record breaking waves, we'll see after we test as this is beta ;)

5. Frost is still better than valkyr and ash in terms of utility after first glance

6. Most people never end up seeing npcs above one shot range, not sure how AI improvements will help

Edited February 6, 2014 by Shibboleet

[IamSalva]

Personally, I'm torn on the issue.

 

It was needed, but why was only Frost touched? Nova needed a tweak to her uber as well - it is far more gamebreaking than Snowglobe ever was.

 

on the level of play where snowglobe was needed, M Prime is not gamebreaking at all. Its nice and usefull, nothing more...

[Agent_of_Change]

1. Snowglobe never granted full invulnerability.

2. No mission required snowglobe

3. No one wanted to be the frost though it did make some mission types easier

4. Very little thought went into Frost's "balance", he's not even an offensive frame but that's the direction that they've pushed him.

5. Frost is weak and has less utility in comparison to other frames even though he should have very high utility. 

6. I agree the "artificial skill" is bad but that's no excuse for half-balancing a frame in the wrong direction.

1. it granted full immunity to all ranged attacks for it's full duration. given that ranged units would tend to engage from out side the bubble it did in fact grant a general defacto immunity to most grinneer and corpus units.  Don't split hairs you know exactly what i'm talking about.

 

2. To hear the wounded wailing and gnashing of teeth apparently high level Defense "required" it.  Don't split hairs you know exactly what i'm talking about.

 

3. You speak for everyone in the game now?  you can prove that? you can produce metrics?  You can't can you?  I know you can't because that is a really stupid statement to make.  It would be more accurate to say YOU don't want to play first but you are arrogant enough to assume that your opinion somehow matters enough to be the universal truth, which, I'm very sorry, it's not.

 

4. Prove it.  You can't can you?  I know you can't because you don't know, you assume and your weak assumption is based solely on the fact that you don't like it less than 24 hours since it was implemented.  You also don't know the larger balance plan or the frame work in which the decision was made.  So whether or not the statement is true (unlikely as that is) it's not something you can state as fact, and it would be extremely arrogant to do so (though we've proven you have that trait when you deigned to assign your feels about frost to everyone).

 

5. Frost is still one of the toughest frames in the game, with a mix of skills and snow globe still serves it purpose albeit with more active babysitting to use it like it did before.  Frost isn't weak now, Frost is closer in power to the majority of frames now.  You don't balance to the extremes you balance to the majority.  Least change principle in action.

 

6. It's not a half balance as that assumes they are done, it is a balancing step currently being taken out of context to what changes they will make to it and changes that are coming to other things.  I'm sorry DE cannot fix everything all at once, you'll have to forgive them for your unreasonable expectations. Incremental change is the name of the game.

Edited February 6, 2014 by Agent_of_Change

[Delsana]

Perhaps you're under the impression that when people meant harder content was desired, that they were instead asking for the reworking of how classes work rather than improved AI improved content, and other such things?

[Egg_Chen]

OP misses the point, harder content is fine, rebalancing frames to achieve that is fine.

... but, "Frost caused viability issues for other frames in Defence, so we nerf him" does not, and will not ever make other frames viable in Defence.

 

It only changes Frost's viability.

 

An analogy, "poverty in the 3rd world is a terrible problem and the developed world has too much, so we are going to take wealth away from the developed world (but do absolutely nothing for the 3rd world)".

[WhisperByte]

when rhino received the nerf hammer, he could still roar but kickass endgame damage and time stop for pretty good CC

AFAIK when Rhino first received the nerf hammer he got worse than Frost now is. His Charge was worse than Slash Dash because enemies used to get up way quicker after knockdown than we do. His Iron Skin was turned into a bugged piece of S#&$ (and took several iterations to get to where it is now). His Radial Blast was a short range radial knockdown that dealt 1k damage (back when EVERYTHING had armor so it was pretty well mitigated) and his Stomp was more expensive and way worse than Bastille (and some community members even accused DE of overnerfing just so Booben would be more appealing)

[Ryme]

Take all of my +1s for this.

 

But seriously, enemy A.I. needs major improvements, and they need to be better made on what they're based around.

 

One notable example are the Grineer Butchers. They are pathetically easy to kill, and the only way they get to you is by running in a straight line at you. And when they do get to you their attacks are normally so slow that you can just walk two steps away and unload onto them.

What I'd like to see is maybe them having a leaping/sliding attack, maybe be able to slide/wallrun/roll, along with increased attack speed/more attack animations/varied attacks.

 

And then there are bosses, each of which have terrible A.I. One example is phase two Lephantis, who just slowly lumbers around the arena in no real direction, constantly turning in circles trying to attack players.

 

Did Grineer Butchers used to be stun prod guys? I remember early Grineer melee units had a "teleport" ability that would let them close on you very quickly. The trade off being they used a charge attack that had a relatively long animation, allowing players who paid attention to evade them. I wonder why they were removed.

 

I'm not too worried about bosses, after seeing their work with the new Hyenas. If they gave Infested Chargers similar mobility and freedom of movement... man that would be cool.

[Sasquatchias]

Did Grineer Butchers used to be stun prod guys? I remember early Grineer melee units had a "teleport" ability that would let them close on you very quickly. The trade off being they used a charge attack that had a relatively long animation, allowing players who paid attention to evade them. I wonder why they were removed.

 

I'm not too worried about bosses, after seeing their work with the new Hyenas. If they gave Infested Chargers similar mobility and freedom of movement... man that would be cool.

In some levels there are Grineer units with prods that can teleport. The prod doesn't stun though, it sets you on fire.

[VegetableBasket]

The lag is a bigger prohibitive element than the warframe abilities on high level defense.

[LazerusKI]

People kept asking for harder content, they kept bragging about their 7 hour survival runs, and their wave 400 Defense runs. They kept bragging about their sick builds for the Soma, Brakk and Galatine.

 

And then, when something comes along to change that, to give them the difficulty they wanted, they complain. They decry the change without testing it for themselves. Some have even quit because of this.

 

To the people complaining about the recent changes, the Frost rebalancing in particular; "You reap what you sow". 'Cause... I'm still doing just fine with Frost, you guys are just really bad players if you RELY solely on one power that was, admittedly, way to powerful to begin with.

 

So now, like all things that have lived and ever will live on this Earth, I invite you now to evolve. To adapt and overcome. You're human, after all. Act like it.

the first thing i thought about while reading the topic was this

 

and yes i agree...people say its too easy, they want harder content, but harder content turns out to be obsolete because there are a few frames that will jsut destroy the whole power. Snowglobe and Bastille were such cases. Bastille can be replaced by Vortex and Efficiency Build, atleast against infested. But Snowglobe was unique, and i have noticed myself that the new snowglobe with focus cant stand a T3 Minigunner for 5 seconds. M.Prime is also always said to be OP...but im one of the faction who thinks that its not...you still need to kill your target to trigger the effect, and then you need to hope for a chain reaction. Its very level-based. Snowglobe and Bastille were not.

I think it simply needs some adjustments as usual. Never needed to have a frost. I choosed always Vortex-Vauban over Frost. The last few patches always broke him, so is this one, thats the only problem. I can even defend better with Rhino instead of Frost. And to be honest, there is still no real use for highlevel defense. If you could get leveled mods there - fine. but you cant get them...so it takes just longer and longer for the same rewards...but thats just my opinion.

Edited February 6, 2014 by LazerusKI

[Seanjuju]

1. it granted full immunity to all ranged attacks for it's full duration. given that ranged units would tend to engage from out side the bubble it did in fact grant a general defacto immunity to most grinneer and corpus units.  Don't split hairs you know exactly what i'm talking about.

 

2. To hear the wounded wailing and gnashing of teeth apparently high level Defense "required" it.  Don't split hairs you know exactly what i'm talking about.

 

3. You speak for everyone in the game now?  you can prove that? you can produce metrics?  You can't can you?  I know you can't because that is a really stupid statement to make.  It would be more accurate to say YOU don't want to play first but you are arrogant enough to assume that your opinion somehow matters enough to be the universal truth, which, I'm very sorry, it's not.

 

4. Prove it.  You can't can you?  I know you can't because you don't know, you assume and your weak assumption is based solely on the fact that you don't like it less than 24 hours since it was implemented.  You also don't know the larger balance plan or the frame work in which the decision was made.  So whether or not the statement is true (unlikely as that is) it's not something you can state as fact, and it would be extremely arrogant to do so (though we've proven you have that trait when you deigned to assign your feels about frost to everyone).

 

5. Frost is still one of the toughest frames in the game, with a mix of skills and snow globe still serves it purpose albeit with more active babysitting to use it like it did before.  Frost isn't weak now, Frost is closer in power to the majority of frames now.  You don't balance to the extremes you balance to the majority.  Least change principle in action.

 

6. It's not a half balance as that assumes they are done, it is a balancing step currently being taken out of context to what changes they will make to it and changes that are coming to other things.  I'm sorry DE cannot fix everything all at once, you'll have to forgive them for your unreasonable expectations. Incremental change is the name of the game.

1. Immunity to most is not full immunity

2. Record-Breaking Defense maybe. Its not its own mission type. It depends how you define high-level defense. High-level defense, as I define it, was not impossible without frost.

3. I thought it was obvious that I was speaking in my own experience. In my experience, going frost meant you pulled the short straw in the majority of situations. 

4. Again, I'm not stating facts. This is obviously my own opinion and my opinion is not fact.

5. In my opinion (so you realize that its my opinion), we don't need another offensive frame. I'm more concerned with the lack of utility.

6. Opinion: I'd rather they not touch the frame until the balancing process is closer to completion. Its also my opinion that frost is not near completion as far as balancing is concerned. No, I don't think its unreasonable to ask for what I consider to be thoughtful balancing. 

Edited February 6, 2014 by Seanjuju

[Deservate]

You. You.

If I will ever get any form of cancer, I will read your post again, and it'll vanish

Your words are like magic

[CadenFall]

I like this pencil maze. It's fun, I wish it was harder.

 

-How to make it harder:

 

*Gives you a harder maze*

 

-How not to make it harder:

 

*Takes away your pencil, requests you bite your finger and draw in the maze with your blood.*

 

 

Nerfing is not the way to go.

[RootVI]

Personally, I'm torn on the issue.

 

It was needed, but why was only Frost touched? Nova needed a tweak to her uber as well - it is far more gamebreaking than Snowglobe ever was.

only if you have overextended

[Blazer-X]

6. Opinion: I'd rather they not touch the frame until the balancing process is closer to completion. Its also my opinion that frost is not near completion as far as balancing is concerned. No, I don't think its unreasonable to ask for what I consider to be thoughtful balancing.

I agree with this. I am not going to say Snow Globe wasn't a bit overpowered even if I am personally biased in favor of it. But it feels to me that they have not really play-tested the change and just hastily added it to U12 (totally not helped by the fact that it was announced the day of, even if it had been previously planned). Players should not be having trouble keeping it for over 1/5 of the time it used to last in non-endless high tier content (Pluto and T3).

And I also don't particularly agree with the current "use other skills to work around it" argument used by some other players. Not because its wrong. The idea of making other abilities usable was the reason we have this change in the first place. However, most people immediately jump to OTHER frame's CC abilities such as Chaos and Bastille to protect the Snow Globe. But if you are using other skills to protect the globe, which is supposed to protect you, why use the globe at all? Why not just rely on Chaos or Bastille? And more importantly, if the other CC frames already protect you and Frost's Snow Globe is redundant, why use Frost? This is the logical fallacy behind the current power.

Edited February 6, 2014 by Blazer-X

[NevanChambers]

I for one, did not ask for harder ! vocal minority/nerf babies always ruining everything.

The problem here is that you can't be catered to solely either. You have two camps those that want easy mode and those that want a challenge. I personally don't know how one would keep both parties happy, and though I tend to lean towards the easy mode side i understand the need to marginally please as many as possible. I feel that DE performs admirably, they have shown a willingness to listen to the player base and filter out the increasing amounts of static.