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February 7Th: Community Hot Topics!


[DE]Megan
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You have no idea at all about the number of the population going for the Detron.

It's more likely that there is a constant number of people, which could be very small, that always contributes that gives the extra push needed by the standard number of people siding with the Grineer that have nothing to do with the Detron.

Neither do you, so please stop applying a double standard. The evidence however points to many people doing runs for the grineer (as their winning)

 

Correct, this is a player created problem.

Ahh, no. Don't take S#&$ out of context mak, that's intellectual dishonesty. My statement was about anecdotal evidence, and now you're turning it into something else. And the problem again was created by DE, even they've acknowledged it, give it up already.

 

the detron is as "popular" as the Brakk, it's just a gun some people want.

Exactly, it's popular. Anything else is besides the point.

 

And if this thing created a problem how will the same thing that created the problem thrown on the opposite side will solve it?

...Are you being dense? It'd even out the sides. Do you want the detron, or the other weapon? It all then goes to the player's preferences.

 

 

Interesting that you ignored the 20k starting research cost.

Also interesting is that apparently you think that everyone is playing in a 1k clan where all 1k members are active and all are contributing while at the same time all going for the Detron.

 

That uh...... that's some very specific example.

IIRC they fixed that yeah?

 

And I was assuming there'd be 1k people, but that there would also be plenty of leaches in the clan see the second number about 500 people.

 

And are you forgetting clan costs scale. A shadow clan's costs are nowhere near that of a moon clan. Hell, a shadow clan only needs what, 200? So 10 people need 20 each to start the research? Using your 4 number, that means 5 runs by each of them, not even close to being hard.

 

The best is a neutral marker because getting loot from an opposite mark (doing a Grineer Harvester) is not going to solve anything at all.

Like oxium? Because that S#&$ did jack all to fix the problem, hate to break it to you.

Edited by KvotheTheArcane1
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Megan" post="2048815" timestamp="1391815024"]

Invasion Balance
Recent events have caused Grineer to ‘dominate’ the solar system and continually wipe out the Corpus. Certain factors like the Harvester and Operation Oxium Espionage continued the execution of the Corpus. Feedback that Corpus has no hope of survival is being heard, and faction’s standing in the Solar System will definitely be addressed. The Corpus have had enough of this ongoing slaughter and intend to level the solar system.

Warframe Balancing
Update 12 brought the “Buff Train” and to many players discontent; the ‘End of Frost’. Warframes continually get tweaks from feedback/community concerns; Scott being the conductor of the Warframe Buff Train will be looking into feedback. He has mentioned some suggestions that he wants to try for Frost, such as Snowglobe taking on Frost’s armor rating.

Clan Tech Weapons
All of the new weapons added in Update 12 were put in Clan Tech Research or for purchase in the Market. Concerns that we missed the window to add lore into the game by putting new weapons on enemies are somewhat true, but considering the amount of feedback from putting the Detron on the Harvester were “too many RNG walls” we decided to put them in Clan Tech. The move was intended to bring light to the Dojo’s and make them more viable.
Does it make sense that you can purchase a Cestra BP twice and technically have dual Cestras and yet the Dual Cestras is Clan Tech/purchase only? Not quite, further monitoring will be done.

Interception Game play
More monitoring of this new game play mode will be necessary to balance the mix between ‘too hard for Solo players’ and ‘too easy for a squad’. Players are finding themselves standing there for an extended amount of time without seeing a single Grineer try to steal their base. Some suggestions are
· Decreasing the number of bases depending on how many players are present
· Increase the spawn rate (even more) for when 4 players are playing
· Have the Grineer attack in large groups with a ‘Leader’
More community feedback is being taken into consideration.

Continuous Fire Weapons
The request for continuous fire weapons to be reverted back to showing a ‘damage number fountain’ is a double sided argument. Some players enjoy the new ‘condensed damage number fountain’ and some player’s want it reverted. So where is the middle ground? The reasoning behind the change was to make it more obvious for players who are applying damage mods, as it’s easier to notice that numbers are 5% larger in magnitude vs being generated 5% faster.
The satisfaction of seeing numbers fly while using continuous fire weapons is what’s being missed. Feedback and suggestions have been noted.

INVASION: About time. By the time 12.1 rolls around, pluto will be taken over, leaving only venus, jupiter, parts of sedna, and a handful of nodes here and there under Corpus rule. If nothing changes next week, corpus holdings will be further reduced. I fear that they may face total extinction within a month. But of course there will be changes before that, right?

BUFF TRAIN: All those weapon buffs are fair and nice, but frost's UBERNERF was uncalled for. He had ONE scaling ability and you made it not-scaling. Why do you think Ember is considered so bad? Because all of her abilities are direct damage and therefore don't scale. Overheat scaled but it is gone. Snow Globe scaled but no longer. Now people fear that the nerf hammer will fall on abilities that scale. Blessing. Chaos. Bastille. That was a disaster and a blatant attempt to shove Frost The Defender into an attack role, where he will have to compete with a bajillion other frames, the least not being Nova The Obliteratrix.

CLAN TECH: ... What? I think there was a misunderstanding there. We DONT want more RNG/enemies dropping weapons. We want them to USE the new weapons. Crewmen using Tetra and Cestra. Techs with Penta. Grineers with actual grineer melee weapons (as opposed to provas), or using Stug. Infested using infested weaponry, like, i dunno, infested scorpions on all four (like chargers) with a Scoliac tail, infested Ospreys with a Tysis...
You also need to solve the inconsistencies. Not just the cestra. Clantech was sorely forgotten and lacking new things while the market got all the shinies that rightfully belonged in the dojo.

INTERCEPTION: I personally avoided this like the plague after the feedback warning people that it was extremely solo-unfriendly. Fix that. Especially since it's RIGHT THERE in the way of new players. You can't just ignore the new player experience again.
Also? DON'T REPLACE MOBILE DEFENCE FOR THE LOVE OF HUMANITY. People love it. They don't like interception more than mobile defence, and by a landslide. Furthermore, mobile defence is one of the best farming mission, and all that this game has is farming. Removing efficient farms and loved missions will cause an outrage never seen before. Oh wait.

CONTINUOUS FIRE: The numbers don't matter. What matter is that the weapons are BROKEN. They just aren't continuous anymore because the damage is applied ONLY when the numbers pop up, making these weapons automatics with a shoddy 33RPM firerate that can't be improved. This was a huge nerf by the way.
 

 

...Are you being dense?

I hate to break it to you but Mak broke the Shwartschild radius. (I'll save you a google: that means he's dense enough to become a black hole. A black hole where all rationality and sound arguments are lost forever, never to return)

Don't bother trying to rationalize with him. Ever.

In all my forum activity I saw him make two, maybe three reasonable posts. That's it.
 

Edited by Kaian-a-coel
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Im going to say this was player created. 

Is this situation player created? Sure, if you want to consider players doing the obvious thing in response to an obvious slant in rewards a player created situation. 

 

This isn't complicated. Far and wide, all issues of difficulty and commitment time aside, players will do what gives them the best tangible reward.

Game developers are well aware of this.

 

If a developer makes factions in their game, then makes it more tangibly rewarding to fight on one side of that.

THAT is the side the majority of players will fight on. Until they have drained out the reward of course.

 

The solution is the same as it always is. Make it equally rewarding to back either side overall. 

there isn't likely to ever be a complete 50/50 out there because of preference and taste...

but this kind of wipe out is very easy to see coming.

Edited by Ronyn
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Neither do you, so please stop applying a double standard. The evidence however points to many people doing runs for the grineer (as their winning)

 

 

Evidence points that the Grineer are winning and that's all.

 

Ahh, no. Don't take S#&$ out of context mak, that's intellectual dishonesty. My statement was about anecdotal evidence, and now you're turning it into something else. And the problem again was created by DE, even they've acknowledged it, give it up already.

 

They acknowledge that they created a problem or did they acknowledge that there was a problem?

Cause those are two different things.

 

Exactly, it's popular. Anything else is besides the point.

 

Glad we agree that the gun is "popular."

 

 

...Are you being dense? It'd even out the sides. Do you want the detron, or the other weapon? It all then goes to the player's preferences.

 

It will do nothing, using your idea that Oxium help this then this means that there all needs to be an element that the Grineer get or else nothing will change.

 

IIRC they fixed that yeah?

 

That's the latest price.

Does anyone know if their lowered it more?

 

And I was assuming there'd be 1k people, but that there would also be plenty of leaches in the clan see the second number about 500 people.

 

Im not assuming anything i am using your example which still counts with being in a clan with 500 people active.

You example is very specific and that's a problem because we dont know how many people are in that position.

 

And are you forgetting clan costs scale. A shadow clan's costs are nowhere near that of a moon clan. Hell, a shadow clan only needs what, 200? So 10 people need 20 each to start the research? Using your 4 number, that means 5 runs by each of them, not even close to being hard.

 

Im not forgetting, you are using a very specific example that has all these factors that a bunch of people need to be doing exactly.

Way too specific.

 

First of all why would all of a sudden people decided to not go the easier way with Oxium?

 

 

Like oxium? Because that S#&$ did jack all to fix the problem, hate to break it to you.

 

How many days has Zephyr been out again?

You might want to, you know, wait a bit.

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Is this situation player created? Sure, if you want to consider players doing the obvious thing in response to an obvious slant in rewards a player created situation. 

 

Not everyone is going for the Detron and there is no concrete reason for a slant to start.

 

This isn't complicated. Far and wide, all issues of difficulty and commitment time aside, players will do what gives them the best tangible reward.

Game developers are well aware of this.

 

Developers are not always "aware" how goofy some people will go.

I mean..... why would players shoot themselves in the foot and make it mostly one faction controlling the SS?

Do the players have no self control?

 

 

If a developer makes factions in their game, then makes it more tangibly rewarding to fight on one side of that.

THAT is the side the majority of players will fight on. Until they have drained out the reward of course.

 

There is no tangible reason to be fighting this hard for one side.

You get a mark and you are done.

 

The solution is the same as it always is. Make it equally rewarding to back either side overall. 

there isn't likely to ever be a complete 50/50 out there because of preference and taste...

but this kind of wipe out is very easy to see coming.

 

Unless they do the same exact item but with a different color the is really no even answer.

And you are locked to a side. Because people, like you said, will find the cheesiest way to get around stuff to get the reward.

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Interception Game play is easy considering its on earth, yet I do agree the spawn rate is low.

And there's also allot of survival maps that have the same problem, making it impossible to go further then 15m cause of no life capsules.

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Evidence points that the Grineer are winning and that's all.

Before the detron, it was even, with the detron grineer have had landslides in their favor everywhere.

 

They acknowledge that they created a problem or did they acknowledge that there was a problem?

Cause those are two different things.

Doesn't matter, it's a problem created by the Devs, anyone with basic game design knowledge would understand this.

 

It will do nothing, using your idea that Oxium help this then this means that there all needs to be an element that the Grineer get or else nothing will change.

Oxium does nothing but simply make the grineer an even better choice. It's barely a problem since it's so easy to get, but I have nothing against giving grineer some oxium based units (like regulators or something)

 

Im not assuming anything i am using your example which still counts with being in a clan with 500 people active.

You example is very specific and that's a problem because we dont know how many people are in that position.

My example was giving a number, 50% of a moon clan donating on average, I don't think that's unreasonable, and are you still trying to pull up minor things about it? Get over it, oxium isn't the table turning item you make it out to be.

 

 

Im not forgetting, you are using a very specific example that has all these factors that a bunch of people need to be doing exactly.

Way too specific.

 

First of all why would all of a sudden people decided to not go the easier way with Oxium?

Already discussed

 

I was using your assumption that people get an average of 4 per run, nothing more, so what is your point? Mine is that oxium isn't that hard to acquire, or in super high demand in a clan that has 50% (or more) people active.

 

How many days has Zephyr been out again?

You might want to, you know, wait a bit.

...And so what? It's only helping the grineer win, nobody in numbers that matter (seeing as grineer are still winning) cares about oxium.

 

AND as long as there is one ongoing invasion of grineer vs corpus, people don't have to fight for the corpus to get oxium.

 

Not everyone is going for the Detron and there is no concrete reason for a slant to start.

Actually, we have some pretty good proof that plenty of people have been, before the detron it was fairly even, then the detron came out and grineer have won every single non potato fight.

 

There is no tangible reason to be fighting this hard for one side.

You get a mark and you are done.

And the unconfirmed rumor is that invasions have a higher chance to spawn the harvester. What part of this are you not getting?

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1:Not everyone is going for the Detron and there is no concrete reason for a slant to start.

 

2:Developers are not always "aware" how goofy some people will go.

 

3:I mean..... why would players shoot themselves in the foot and make it mostly one faction controlling the SS?

Do the players have no self control?

 

4:There is no tangible reason to be fighting this hard for one side.

You get a mark and you are done.

 

5:Unless they do the same exact item but with a different color the is really no even answer.

And you are locked to a side. Because people, like you said, will find the cheesiest way to get around stuff to get the reward.

 

1: The detron is a tangible reward. There will be some amount of players who want it. 

Doesn't need to be everyone for the slant to start, it just needs to be enough to tip the scales onto one side.

 

2: Developers are human, they make mistakes, they forget things, etc..nobodies perfect.

But game design 101 is very clear on how reward drives activity.

A developer doesn't have to know just how "goofy" people will get to understand there will be a basic slant.

 

Note: I am not even saying that DE necessarily made a mistake here, for all I know they wanted this to happen.

I really don't know what the specifics of what they have in store for us. 

 

3: In what way are people shooting themselves in the foot and are they aware they are doing it?

In my case I saw the detron, I started fighting on the grineer side until I got it, now i fight on corpus side to get them back on the map.

When I needed oxium I figured out where to get it, got all I needed, completed the event, now Zephyr is in the cooker...

So what that I have to wait a while before getting more corpus scans and farm mods from certain corpus units....

I'm fine with that. So if I did shoot myself in the foot I am unaware of it.

 

4: So lets say you want the detron so you need the mark. There is an invasion on mars.

If you start down the path of helping the grineer on a planet you automatically build up battle pay with the grineer.

At some point you'll get the mark. Now you've got battle pay built up on the grineer side...

it simply isn't efficient to start playing on the corpus side and pulling the progress away from the grineer battle pay you've earned.

Which means, following the same principle that players do what is most efficient for them to get rewards...

most folks will either keep going after grineer battlepay or simply stop interacting with that invasion.

Either way it has slanted the battle on the side of the grineer.

Again, it doesn't have to be everybody just enough to tip the scales.

 

NOTE-exception would be that the particular battle pay reward on a corpus mission is worth a whole lot to a player.

again, the reward drives the activity unless there is some other outside factor.

 

5: It does not need to be absolutely even, if it is relatively even it generally averts this kind of situation.

And like I said it will never be completely 50/50...

 

Seriously there is no debate here.

A tangible reward was sought after by enough people that it tipped the scales. That is to be expected.

Whether De did it on purpose or by accident I cannot say. But the playerbases response was extremely predictable.

Whether players should or shouldn't respond that way is a separate question of whether developers are aware that reward drives activity.

This isn't even worth going back and forth on. I must be bored tonight. lol

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5: It does not need to be absolutely even, if it is relatively even it generally averts this kind of situation.

And like I said it will never be completely 50/50...

Really, the only thing that could tip the scales is the brakk, if it is dropped by the grineer headhunter.

It is not exactly even, but it is close enough to provide some kind of balance.

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Continuous Fire Weapons

The request for continuous fire weapons to be reverted back to showing a ‘damage number fountain’ is a double sided argument. Some players enjoy the new ‘condensed damage number fountain’ and some player’s want it reverted. So where is the middle ground? The reasoning behind the change was to make it more obvious for players who are applying damage mods, as it’s easier to notice that numbers are 5% larger in magnitude vs being generated 5% faster.

The satisfaction of seeing numbers fly while using continuous fire weapons is what’s being missed. Feedback and suggestions have been noted.

The issue was never the cosmetics of seeing a flood of numbers, it's the fact that the first instance of damage is always delayed under the new system, which causes continuous fire weapons to waste ammo and always have the minimum delay before a kill is registered.

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My Snow Globe suggestion:
Revert it. Buff the AI to respond to it quasi-intelligently (as in SOME of the enemies encountering it decide to walk in or throw grenades or something instead of standing and shooting).
If you can't buff the AI (due to the lack of competent AI programmers), revert it ANYWAY and buff the AI once you get a decent AI programmer.

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Before the detron, it was even, with the detron grineer have had landslides in their favor everywhere.

 

 

Nah, the Grineer were still winning but it wasn't as fast cause the missions took forever.

There were other cooky reasons for this before, like the Corpus being easier to fight, etc, etc.

 

 

Doesn't matter, it's a problem created by the Devs, anyone with basic game design knowledge would understand this.

 

Of course it matters.

And what school did you go for basic game design knowledge?

 

 

Oxium does nothing but simply make the grineer an even better choice. It's barely a problem since it's so easy to get, but I have nothing against giving grineer some oxium based units (like regulators or something)

 

 

My example was giving a number, 50% of a moon clan donating on average, I don't think that's unreasonable, and are you still trying to pull up minor things about it? Get over it, oxium isn't the table turning item you make it out to be.

 

Already discussed

 

I was using your assumption that people get an average of 4 per run, nothing more, so what is your point? Mine is that oxium isn't that hard to acquire, or in super high demand in a clan that has 50% (or more) people active.

 

The Oxium is only easy to get in Corpus mission.

If you feel like taking a long time then i guess this is fine with you but since we are talking about people going nutty over the easier way to get something your argument doesnt make any sense.

 

 

 

...And so what? It's only helping the grineer win, nobody in numbers that matter (seeing as grineer are still winning) cares about oxium.

 

AND as long as there is one ongoing invasion of grineer vs corpus, people don't have to fight for the corpus to get oxium.

 

Seriously, i think you are the only person with the idea to farm Oxium from Invasion missions.

I dont even know why you are trying to bring this silly idea to make a point.

 

 

Actually, we have some pretty good proof that plenty of people have been, before the detron it was fairly even, then the detron came out and grineer have won every single non potato fight.

 

The only thing the Detron did was make the Grineer win faster.

The Detron is just one of the many reason to fight for the Grineer people use.

And we still have no idea of the number.

 

 

And the unconfirmed rumor is that invasions have a higher chance to spawn the harvester. What part of this are you not getting?

 

What part of no tangible reason are you not getting?

 

This idea may come from the fact that a bunch of people with marks are grouping rather than the mission having any effect.

Edited by Mak_Gohae
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Nah, the Grineer were still winning but it wasn't as fast cause the missions took forever.

There were other cooky reasons for this before, like the Corpus being easier to fight, etc, etc.

It was fairly even, corpus weren't always steam rolled.

 

Of course it matters.

And what school did you go for basic game design knowledge?

It does not, but they know it's a problem, and they're fixing it.

 

The Oxium is only easy to get in Corpus mission.

If you feel like taking a long time then i guess this is fine with you but since we are talking about people going nutty over the easier way to get something your argument doesnt make any sense.

What? No, you're saying Oxium balances everything out for some reason, when it clearly doesn't, and won't because as long as there is one invasion going on, people will be able to get oxium.

 

Seriously, i think you are the only person with the idea to farm Oxium from Invasion missions.

I dont even know why you are trying to bring this silly idea to make a point.

I am not, I'm simply using the number you gave (ave of 4 per run), and showing it's not that hard.

 

The only thing the Detron did was make the Grineer win faster.

The Detron is just one of the many reason to fight for the Grineer people use.

And we still have no idea of the number.

Ugh, this stupid reasoning? Cmon, detron has pretty much guaranteed a grineer owned system, and tipped the balance from fairly even to completely in favor of the grineer.

 

What part of no tangible reason are you not getting?

What part of "Unconfirmed rumor" and "People will do anything that gives them a possible higher chance" do you not understand? What do I have to make clearer?

 

This idea may come from the fact that a bunch of people with marks are grouping rather than the mission having any effect.

Maybe, either way it's a rumor now, and people run invasions because it might give them a slightly higher spawn chance. It doesn't matter if it's for "No tangible reason" or not, people do it because they think it gives them a higher chance, and then they tell other people it does, and so it gets spread around.

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1: The detron is a tangible reward. There will be some amount of players who want it. 

Doesn't need to be everyone for the slant to start, it just needs to be enough to tip the scales onto one side.

 

2: Developers are human, they make mistakes, they forget things, etc..nobodies perfect.

But game design 101 is very clear on how reward drives activity.

A developer doesn't have to know just how "goofy" people will get to understand there will be a basic slant.

 

Note: I am not even saying that DE necessarily made a mistake here, for all I know they wanted this to happen.

I really don't know what the specifics of what they have in store for us. 

 

3: In what way are people shooting themselves in the foot and are they aware they are doing it?

In my case I saw the detron, I started fighting on the grineer side until I got it, now i fight on corpus side to get them back on the map.

When I needed oxium I figured out where to get it, got all I needed, completed the event, now Zephyr is in the cooker...

So what that I have to wait a while before getting more corpus scans and farm mods from certain corpus units....

I'm fine with that. So if I did shoot myself in the foot I am unaware of it.

 

4: So lets say you want the detron so you need the mark. There is an invasion on mars.

If you start down the path of helping the grineer on a planet you automatically build up battle pay with the grineer.

At some point you'll get the mark. Now you've got battle pay built up on the grineer side...

it simply isn't efficient to start playing on the corpus side and pulling the progress away from the grineer battle pay you've earned.

Which means, following the same principle that players do what is most efficient for them to get rewards...

most folks will either keep going after grineer battlepay or simply stop interacting with that invasion.

Either way it has slanted the battle on the side of the grineer.

Again, it doesn't have to be everybody just enough to tip the scales.

 

NOTE-exception would be that the particular battle pay reward on a corpus mission is worth a whole lot to a player.

again, the reward drives the activity unless there is some other outside factor.

 

5: It does not need to be absolutely even, if it is relatively even it generally averts this kind of situation.

And like I said it will never be completely 50/50...

 

Seriously there is no debate here.

A tangible reward was sought after by enough people that it tipped the scales. That is to be expected.

Whether De did it on purpose or by accident I cannot say. But the playerbases response was extremely predictable.

Whether players should or shouldn't respond that way is a separate question of whether developers are aware that reward drives activity.

This isn't even worth going back and forth on. I must be bored tonight. lol

 

 

1. Yes, i've said this before. The point is that bringing the same "problem" to the other side will just result in more trouble because of that faction of people.

 

2. The players dont actually know how to acquire this item so from their side this result probably didnt exist. As far i know the only thing you need is a mark and after that you can go farm some oxium, if all you need is a mark this "problem" would not exist. The "problem" exist because of the idea of continuing to do Invasion missions which may or may not be a factor.

 

3. You dont need to be a video game scientist to notice this pattern the second DE revealed more info on this. The very first invasion after this info was released ended super quick. I dont remember but im pretty sure i made a post about this.

 

4. All you need a mark, once you get a mark from one mission you should be done until the thing pops for you. Doing more than that is just you wasting effort . In fact, supporting the Grineer after getting your mark is not a smart thing to do because you want the possibility of more Grineer invasions.

 

Unless there is actually a better chance of the Harvester popping during invasions, which i fight highly unlikely because the thing is meant to be rare, there is no reason for this crazy tsunami after you get a mark.

 

5. Even will never happen to any serious degree if loot is involve on any side.

 

The scales are tipped based on theory created and not because of the system in play. If all you require is a mark then there is no reason for the Tsumani happening.

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It was fairly even, corpus weren't always steam rolled.

 

Nope, Grineer were winning but it wasnt as fast.

 

It does not, but they know it's a problem, and they're fixing it.

 

If you are going to lay the blame on DE it matters but now it doesnt because its likely that they never said what you claim.

 

What? No, you're saying Oxium balances everything out for some reason, when it clearly doesn't, and won't because as long as there is one invasion going on, people will be able to get oxium.

 

I am not, I'm simply using the number you gave (ave of 4 per run), and showing it's not that hard.

 

I ask again, why would you use the argument that people will follow the easiest path then ignore whenever you feel like? Did you get Zephyr yet? How did you get the Oxium? It would be extremely hilarious if you did in fact decided to get a few per mission in the off chance that you actually got them.

 

Ugh, this stupid reasoning? Cmon, detron has pretty much guaranteed a grineer owned system, and tipped the balance from fairly even to completely in favor of the grineer.

 

Yes, those are some stupid reason but those are the excuses used to back the Grineer.

 

What part of "Unconfirmed rumor" and "People will do anything that gives them a possible higher chance" do you not understand? What do I have to make clearer?

 

The part where you say people will not do this to get Oxium.

Forget getting 30-50 Oxium in a Mobile Defense, i will repeat a mission a dozen times!

Because no one ever complaining that Invasion sucks because they have to do just five missions for a reward.

Forget that the Infested invasion actually got their number lowered because of the complain that 5 missions were too annoying.

 

Wait... who the hell is going for the Detron with all these complains?

Cause it's really sounding like super hardcore nutters and one should never balance the game around these folks.

 

Maybe, either way it's a rumor now, and people run invasions because it might give them a slightly higher spawn chance. It doesn't matter if it's for "No tangible reason" or not, people do it because they think it gives them a higher chance, and then they tell other people it does, and so it gets spread around.

 

Translation; Player created problem.

 

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Nope, Grineer were winning but it wasnt as fast.

No, it was roughly even.

If you are going to lay the blame on DE it matters but now it doesnt because its likely that they never said what you claim.

No, DE knows it's a problem, DE caused it, the end. DE designed mechanics that caused players to go for one side over another, players simply did what was most rewarding, nothing more. If that's a "player created problem" then literally everything is, and we both know that isn't the case.

The part where you say people will not do this to get Oxium.

Forget getting 30-50 Oxium in a Mobile Defense, i will repeat a mission a dozen times!

Because no one ever complaining that Invasion sucks because they have to do just five missions for a reward.

Forget that the Infested invasion actually got their number lowered because of the complain that 5 missions were too annoying.

And people probably won't, they'll go for the best reward in the short term, not the best reward in the long term, just like they always have in WF.

Wait... who the hell is going for the Detron with all these complains?

Cause it's really sounding like super hardcore nutters and one should never balance the game around these folks.

What? No, it's simply people who want the detron who cause the grineer to take over everything, and anyone with half a brain can see the grineer are taking everything over. Nothing else.

Translation; Player created problem.

Rumor? Yes and no, DE could solve it by confirming the rumor as true or untrue. Grineer taking over the solar system? No, that was on DE because they made a system that rewarded players for fighting for the grineer over the corpus.

edit: I'm done, you'll never admit DE is at fault here, they made the system and didn't bother to think what it'd do to the balance of the system.

Edited by KvotheTheArcane1
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1. Yes, i've said this before. The point is that bringing the same "problem" to the other side will just result in more trouble because of that faction of people.

 

2. The players dont actually know how to acquire this item so from their side this result probably didnt exist. As far i know the only thing you need is a mark and after that you can go farm some oxium, if all you need is a mark this "problem" would not exist. The "problem" exist because of the idea of continuing to do Invasion missions which may or may not be a factor.

 

3. You dont need to be a video game scientist to notice this pattern the second DE revealed more info on this. The very first invasion after this info was released ended super quick. I dont remember but im pretty sure i made a post about this.

 

4. All you need a mark, once you get a mark from one mission you should be done until the thing pops for you. Doing more than that is just you wasting effort . In fact, supporting the Grineer after getting your mark is not a smart thing to do because you want the possibility of more Grineer invasions.

 

Unless there is actually a better chance of the Harvester popping during invasions, which i fight highly unlikely because the thing is meant to be rare, there is no reason for this crazy tsunami after you get a mark.

 

5. Even will never happen to any serious degree if loot is involve on any side.

 

The scales are tipped based on theory created and not because of the system in play. If all you require is a mark then there is no reason for the Tsumani happening.

1 & 5: I suggested that to keep the slant from appearing too strong rewards should be relatively even.

That means each side would have a reward of approximately equal rarity,power or some other measure of value. 

Loot can fit that description as well as anything else. 

This is an example of the common design element of "meaningful choice" or properly implemented "branching paths"

If there was no solid method of creating more than one viable option to entice players then neither of those features would work.

 

2: Neither of us can know for certain exactly how much of the player base knew how to get the detron. 

However the basis of it was directly explained by the devs in a livestream and then become a commonly given piece of advice.

The stream is how I learned, I told any and everyone who asked me, I saw it told around the community in forums, in chat and in mission.

I'd never claim that everyone knew or use anecdotal evidence as empirical evidence of the larger body...

but one thing is for sure is that it wasn't a clandestine secret known only to a precious few. lol

Again, it doesn't need to be everyone, just enough to tip the scales.

 

3: The question was: how are people shooting themselves in the foot and are they aware of it? 

But alright, to what pattern are you referring to?

 

4: Again- All one needs for the Detron is the mark...

BUT then many people still want to earn battle pay..because battlepay is useful in its own right. 

That is where following through on the progress they already made comes into play. 

And there is no real reason to stop playing the invasions to keep them going to get another mark. 

The invasions return and with them comes the chance to earn another mark.

 

Look I'm just not finding enough validity in your argument to continue the debate.

Reward Drives Activity. Period. It's rather straight forward to predict and manipulate.

The degree to which it will drive it is not easy to know but the general direction it will go in most certainly is.

Not only is this phenomenon common knowledge, one can reproduce it on command.

Heck It happened in the play testing I ran just three weeks ago and any time before that I presented a reward structure. 

It happens everyday in game after game.

 

Is it "player created"?, yes. Was it developer initiated?, yes.

Is it a sharks fault they go crazy when they smell blood? yes. Is it the fisherman who initiated it by throwing chum in the water? yes.

 

BTW-Has it even occurred to you that DE may have done this on purpose?

maybe they didn't "mess up" but have something up their sleeve.

Edited by Ronyn
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Feedback that Corpus has no hope of survival is being heard, and faction’s standing in the Solar System will definitely be addressed. The Corpus have had enough of this ongoing slaughter and intend to level the solar system.

Tell them not to do that. It would be bad for the ecosystem.

 

As for Frost...taking on his armor MIGHT be nice, but it would e better for it to have a scaling-with-rank armor of it's own, which is also affected by power mods.

In turn, it also no longer needs a duration.

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No, DE knows it's a problem, DE caused it, the end. DE designed mechanics that caused players to go for one side over another, players simply did what was most rewarding, nothing more. If that's a "player created problem" then literally everything is, and we both know that isn't the case.

Rumor? Yes and no, DE could solve it by confirming the rumor as true or untrue. Grineer taking over the solar system? No, that was on DE because they made a system that rewarded players for fighting for the grineer over the corpus.

edit: I'm done, you'll never admit DE is at fault here, they made the system and didn't bother to think what it'd do to the balance of the system.

 

DE did not create the idea about needed to continue to do invasion missions for a better spawn chance.

I think that this is very unlikely because this is very obvious on how it would turn out.

This is just the standard case of players wanting to do the least amount of work as possible.

Players dug their own grave.

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1 & 5: I suggested that to keep the slant from appearing too strong rewards should be relatively even.

That means each side would have a reward of approximately equal rarity,power or some other measure of value. 

Loot can fit that description as well as anything else. 

This is an example of the common design element of "meaningful choice" or properly implemented "branching paths"

If there was no solid method of creating more than one viable option to entice players then neither of those features would work.

 

 

There wasnt a slant to start. Getting a mark and waiting for the terribly low spawn rate didnt need all the extra effort.

 

2: Neither of us can know for certain exactly how much of the player base knew how to get the detron. 

However the basis of it was directly explained by the devs in a livestream and then become a commonly given piece of advice.

The stream is how I learned, I told any and everyone who asked me, I saw it told around the community in forums, in chat and in mission.

I'd never claim that everyone knew or use anecdotal evidence as empirical evidence of the larger body...

but one thing is for sure is that it wasn't a clandestine secret known only to a precious few. lol

Again, it doesn't need to be everyone, just enough to tip the scales.

 

Doesnt change the fact that some little idea blew into this mess with very little assurance that it works.

 

3: The question was: how are people shooting themselves in the foot and are they aware of it? 

But alright, to what pattern are you referring to?

 

And i gave you the answer. I also am pretty sure i wasnt the only one that noticed this and commented on it.

People just didnt care.

 

4: Again- All one needs for the Detron is the mark...

BUT then many people still want to earn battle pay..because battlepay is useful in its own right. 

That is where following through on the progress they already made comes into play. 

And there is no real reason to stop playing the invasions to keep them going to get another mark. 

The invasions return and with them comes the chance to earn another mark.

 

The only time you need to go for a mark it's after the Harvester spawned looking for you.

Doing five missions gets you one mark, you dont get five marks.

 

Look I'm just not finding enough validity in your argument to continue the debate.

Reward Drives Activity. Period. It's rather straight forward to predict and manipulate.

The degree to which it will drive it is not easy to know but the general direction it will go in most certainly is.

Not only is this phenomenon common knowledge, one can reproduce it on command.

Heck It happened in the play testing I ran just three weeks ago and any time before that I presented a reward structure. 

It happens everyday in game after game.

 

Is it "player created"?, yes. Was it developer initiated?, yes.

Is it a sharks fault they go crazy when they smell blood? yes. Is it the fisherman who initiated it by throwing chum in the water? yes.

 

BTW-Has it even occurred to you that DE may have done this on purpose?

maybe they didn't "mess up" but have something up their sleeve.

 

 

You are viewing this from one side without proper info and are attributing it to both sides thinking this was clear.

 

If the idea of continuing to do Grineer Invasion missions does actually nothing then one can clearly see why DE did not see this.  Because from their perspective people were just going to do what is basically required, which is likely getting one mark then going to do whatever they wanted. In this scenario there is no slant because one battlepay till spawn, which can happen from one day till a month or more depending on your play time, would not have driven everything to one side. Doing one mission for some side then doing whatever you wanted until the spawn has the most minimal effect one can have in drawing people to one side.

 

 

 

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Invasion Balance

 

I for one would first start with taking out the effects of win/loss on Invasions. Time limit them to 1-3 hours and that's all. At the end the winner is decided by the ratio but not sooner. We had a reactor invasion on Hydra and it was gone so fast many people don't finish 1 mission that fast. I guess after much complaint or something it was repeated at the same place but was kinda gone pretty fast no doubt (it was already on 30% when I finished it). I know that Invasions block normal maps but still, making them depend on win/loss limits the loot for players that might be "slower" (meaning not jumping on everything like a rabid dog, that was me). I know this actually makes them not much different from alerts but the current state is not too good either.

 

Actually one more way to make this possible: if the RNG throws in some cool loot, the other side should have an equally rare loot too. That would make the choice harder. Like Reactcor on one side? Then Catalyst on the other! Now that's no longer such an easy choice. What I mean is that the RNG shouldn't mix and match different rank of loots but always work with only 1 number for loot quality that applies for both sides. Then the RNG could decide what loot is taken from the pool of that rank but this way the choice wouldn't be so easy and thus part of the playerbase would work against the other - thus the invasion would be long as intended.

Okay that wasn't completely on the topic but it was relevant none theless. As for the inbalance between Grineer and Corpus:

 

It wouldn't be that hard to even the odds, they would have to simply make siding with Corpus more appealing. But!

 

1. No touching of battle pay allowed! This is serious, that must be balanced without being affected by any other factor. Why? Because the Detron parts only factor into the equasion till they are not in your possession.

2. Even after getting the Detron, the Harvester should offer some sort of useful reward, just like the Stalker. https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/166989-hotfix-1182/page-4#entry1959962 since apparently you cannot quote from Locked topics...

3. The Grineer would need a similar thing that appears on rare occasion. Not specifically this "lone hunter" kind of enemy, more like a Grineer elite unit trying to ambush you from time-to-time and their leader would have some rare drop. Same goes for infested.

More details in mini-events section of https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/79196-concepts-of-mine-consumables-merchant-gambler-and-void-cause-i-like-that/ don't wanna quote that wall of text, sry.

As for the reward I would say something other than a weapon, though I have been nearly spamming the forums trying to push the consumables into the next level for as long as I remember. I mean honestly, that would be one of the best solutions for a lot of things - a loot that can be valuable if done well but gets expended (since it's a "consumable") so it's better to get it again later.

 

With the Harvester loving invasions so much the Grineer needs something that is tied to invasions too. Above mentioned idea is one way but making the Grineer "leaders" drop something nice or making the Grineer accompany their soldiers with some kind of mini(lootdropping)boss in a frequent manner would be cool too. It would appear 60 or more % of the time and would drop something nice 80%, some rare resource for example orokin cell. 20% of time it would drop something better. Like grineer styled sentinel parts along with new sentinel weapon parts, mods etc. Main thing is to have numerous stuff there, preferably with consumables among them (I don't necessarily mean the ones in your gear but maybe keys and such that u use up) thus making it useful to revisit them. Oh and better to make these minibosses simply bigger/more colourful/buffed up versions of normal ones (that's why I mentioned leaders) or weakened versions of known bosses. I would have nothing against making this the new use for the Grineer Commander either. That guy can be a pain and providing him with a way lower cooldown and a bit better firepower he could be a serious problem and a worthy challenge - a run for our loot :D

 

Warframe Balancing

 

Quite a few mentioned previously that Frost's globe should lose it's timer. If the current direction is preserved (which I disagree with but first comes the game then my personal preference) it might be a (very) wise choice especially with Rhino's Ironskin already being managed like that. If somehow we could tell the health the shield has like the "dissipation animation" playing in a slowed down manner as damage is built up...

 

And now my personal preferences:

...

Nekros


I'm a necromancer to the core. In every computer game and rpg (real ones where you sit around with books and character sheets) that has one I always play necromancers. So this little guy here is kinda important to me - thus I have my opinion on all his aspect obviously. Forgive me for this.

1. Soul Punch
I like it, it's pretty much my most loved lvl 1 ability - actually nearly as good in damaging a group as Hack'n'slash but without the "escape route" possibility mentioned ability holds. In fact Hack'n'slash even has more damage, at least according to the Wiki (sold my Excalibur long ago, sorry) but Soul punch has it's ragdolling effect which makes it an immensely powerful ability in the hands of the wicked. The name is a bit... as if it was taken from a children's comic or cartoon. Sorry but even a fantasia name or whatever could be better - even Soul spear is better. I can seriously imagine the guy jumping at the enemy screaming "soru punichi!"...
2. Terrify
I don't really have any problems with this one - it's costly but very useful. Maybe it looks too much like Excalibur's Radial Blind.

3. Desecrate
With the bodies mostly disappearing due to elemental damage and having the promise of some extra ammo (while you can use ammo scavange mods or even get consumables - actually since there aren't exactly a diverse arsenal of consumables, why shouldn't you, right?) it's mostly a waste. Sure, during survival missions, if you can time it well and have some luck, you can get extra life support units but that's still rather... lackluster. I mean we were doing fine without it till now anyways so having that as it's only real use. I mean you don't even need healthpickups that much - with the teammates being able to revive you on full health, it's nearly meaningless.
First of all I would do this:
Revives no longer heal you to 100%, only 25% or 20% and no energy.
Create a mod like:
Savior - warframe/sentinel mod
By revival fallen allies are healed to 30/40/50/60% health.

Maybe even the following:
Rehabilitation - warframe/sentinel mod
By revival fallen allies are energized to 30/40/50/60% energy.
And after this put a light orb (simple sprite that only the Nekroses can see) over or on (nonmechanic) enemy corpses that stay for half a minute even if the body decomposes and:
Desecration
The Necros can leech upon the souls of the recently deceased, granting health and energy to him and his allies.
Voila, it has a good use and the game even became more challanging. Hell, the revive changes would make Trinity more useful too!

4. Shadows of the dead
Needs buff, right now it's a Brutally weakened version of Nyx's chaos.



Frost


As my first ever built frame, Frost has a special place in my heart. After I got Frost Prime I've formad this guy so hard, that only the aura slot is unchanged, and only 1 ability slot. Yes, 3 ability slots ended up as different poralities. I love this frame yet I was more than willing to trade 3 abilities for simple mods and never looked back. I'm only using Snowglobe. So here comes whining 2.0.
Most of his abilities fall short compared to other frames' (actually pretty badly), which endorses the use of his only truly useful ability (snowglobe) which is pretty overpowered, way more than bastille.
While the ideas themselves/themes are good, the results seem... lacking. No, not the damage, contrary to popular belief it's not like every frame must have tons of damaging abilities. In fact since Rhino is the other tank and he has proper attack abilities, I would prefer Frost to be a CC frame, especially since freezing powers are usually best for that. Anyways, here comes my "idea pack" of Frost.

1. Freeze
This ability is practically useless or at least not worth anyone's while.
- Only hits one enemy.
- Even useless against bigger enemies since hard to aim, thanks to the projectile shooting towards the direction you face towards at the end of animation, so you better time your shots well.
- Oh, projectiles are quite slow, so even harder to hit.
- Meager damage.
- Freeze effect breaks easily and usually pretty fast anyways.
These render this ability a "never again" choice if you have other possibilities for that mod slot. You can force it, I won't doubt that but those thinking logically see my point anyways.

So what I would do with it - endorsing the use of Frost as a CC frame:

Range: 50m, 3m aoe on impact location, enemies further away from the center of this aoe suffer weaker effects, latter affected by power range mods.

Frozen duration: 5/7/9/11 or if the enemy suffers more than 35% health damage from a single hit (both affected by power duration mods - or latter from power strength).

- No initial damage.
- Frozen targets suffer incoming damage buff, increasing every kind of physical damage, cold damage and blast damage dealt to them by 25/50/75/100%, affected by power strength mods.

- Prematurely breaking frozen status damages (cold and impact damage, 20/40/60/80) and knocks down those in range (3m aoe + power range mods).

- After frozen status dissipates (either normally or prematurely) enemies are affected by cold's status, slowing them for a while.

 

2. Ice Wave
I like the description, "dealing heavy damage". Pretty much a joke with the Damage2.0 introduced. So, since Ice Wave was never really a specifically good damaging power (only adequate that looked "cool") I believe it could too use some rework.
Currently Ice Wave has meager damage and actually no real use (Avalanche is simply outclasses it, even with the higher cost), especially against higher level enemies. So I would do the following:

- Ice spikes form on the ground, enemies hit by the growing shards get knocked to the ground.
- The spikes stay, like some kind of ice trap, any enemy touching them get's damaged and slowed, since it's proper cold damage.
- The damage itself could be overall the same as now but like this: 60dps - 140dps for 5 seconds. Only the damage and range changes with upgrading the ability, the duration is only changed by power duration mods. The damage is counted as Damage per sec thus with higher duration the overall damage grows too. On a sidenote, damage should only partially consist of cold damage since in case of ice spikes, getting skewered might be a bit more of a problem than getting a cold.
- Focus-like mods could affect the strength of the slowness effect too - it seems fairly logical.

 

3. Snow Globe

Okay, in all honesty, none of the other abilities Frost has can measure up to this. Hell, it's the most powerful defensive ability in-game, beating Blessing and Bastille. While Blessing has redeeming qualities, it's a tier 4 ability, which works against it if we want to compare it to Snow Globe (tier3). Meanwhile Bastille seems perfect (ceasing any retaliation of enemies), but only in a very limited range (2 enemy races mostly consist of shooters so this is bad), against rather limited number of targets.

Snowglobe provides near-perfect protection against ranged attackers (with the exception of railgun moa and the ridiculous aoe of missiles/jetpacks) for a rather long time and a very nice area of effect. Only problem comes from enemies that enter the globe but even they are slowed quite nicely so even that downside is not that much of a downside.

Yes, all-in-all snowglobe is not that much better (not like Molecular prime vs Avalanche) but it certainly is.

 

I simply hate the fact the the mere presence or absence of a Frost with Snow Globe can drastically change the outcome of a defense mission. Try T3 defense with and without globe - you will see what I mean.

I would drastically change this ability, in a way that many might even consider nerfing.

 

Winterhail/Blizzard/Snowstorm

Description: Frost takes control of the surrounding moisture, forming it into a raging storm of razorsharp ice, hindering ranged attacks and damaging enemies that venture inside.

Frost creates a storm made of icy shrapnels, dealing cold and slash damage to those inside, while weakening ranged attacks passing into/through the globe.

Range: 5m, affected by power range mods.

Duration: 30s, affected by power duration mods.

Damage: 15/30/60/90 per second, half slash, half cold damage (thus the overall damage is way lower than Ember's FireBlast), affected by power strength mods.

Enemies are slowed by 40/50/60/70% (or 67% on top if that had any meaning to be 67 instead of plain 70%).

Damage mitigation from ranged attacks is 30/40/50/60%, preferably affected by power strength mods.

 

This way we get a worthy T3 ability which is still way less illogical and "absolute defense" than the current Snow Globe.

 

4. Avalanche

Avalanche itself is not a bad ability by nature it's just that we have seen the near-exact same ability on other frames, countless times. It's nothing creative, only a large aoe damage spell, like that of Saryn, Mag etc. - even Volt is different since his Overload hold the possibility of higher damage thanks to the objects around, and Rhino has his "aftereffect" of floating enemies, making his über a "small" bastille for the recently (or soon to be) deceased.

 

Here comes the "I would do the following" part:

Make Avalanche into something like Molecular Prime, an ability not dealing damage by itself (for MP you have to start killing the enemies since the effect only deals aoe damage if affected enemy dies - after then though... well you have seen dominos, so you get the idea).

 

Description: Summons a treacherous landslide of ice that instantly freezes enemies in the vicinity rendering them immobile and highly vulnerable to incoming physical and cold damage.

Range: 15/18/22/25m, affected by power range mods.

Freeze duration: 7/10/13/16s or broken by hits bigger than 50% health (both affected by power duration mods - or latter from power strength).

Otherwise same as in case of Freeze, detailed above.

 

It would be nice if Cold damage itself could never break frozen status (maybe add to the timer a bit?).

...

 

Clan Tech Weapons

 

Though even in our clan many have raised concerns about the clanintegrated items being too grindy it is till true that they are not that much dependant on RNG thus we can look it at a way to balance it. After all, when the research is done any of our clan members can have those frames without any problems, they only need the materials, no boss farming, no 100+ Orokin Capture runs for Ember Prime... oh, I still don't have Burston prime barrel and having a hard time getting it with the bugged survival rewards always being cores (apart from the guaranteed keys), seriously I have gotten nothing else from my survivals after U12, never thought I would miss the credits and Provoked this much :D Sure they were useless but at least there was some variation. This is... bleak.

Anyways I'm seriously into the idea of getting new clan researches so though I see the need for a lore background as for how we aquired such things (the cetra/akcestra part truly seems interesting since I doubt anyone would need a bp to hold 2 pistols instead of only 1 to begin with) I think that can be solved later on with these weapons added to the enemy's arsenal in some form. I doubt we won't see new Grineer elites/bosses in the future etc.

 

HUD 2.0

Off to protect my shiny new hud!

 

Interception Game play

 

Kinda...

 

...
· Decreasing the number of bases depending on how many players are present
· Increase the spawn rate (even more) for when 4 players are playing
· Have the Grineer attack in large groups with a ‘Leader’
More community feedback is being taken into consideration.
...

 

... this. And just like for Defense I would like to get all rewards at the end and not just the last one :D Make it challenging if needed but Defense and Interception would have a way better reputation if your decision to leave or not would cause a tension of I-might-lose-all instead of I-might-get-trash-instead-of-this.

 

Continuous Fire Weapons

 

Okay, first of all, many haven't read the original patch notes and were scared to death when they have noticed that their 3k damage went down to 280. Second I must admit that right now it is at least glitched/bugged or whatnot because critical damage numbers seem to be inconsistently higher than normal damage as if 2 different mechanics were doing the display. This is really strange and misleading (sometimes doing 100 dmg then 4000... wow).

 

Anyways I believe the biggest problem with them is not their damage-display and such. Right now Ignis is the best of them, easily and even that baby feels lacking in some areas, nothing gamebreaking so don't need to prepare yourselves too much.

- I miss my ability to colour my shots. The elements affecting the design of projectiles is cool but I want to colour them! :D

- Firestorm should be stronger, 24% is too little to notice. 100% would be cool, I'm fine with the mod having more ranks.

- By the way, does fire-rate properly amplify dmg for such weapons? I don't feel it too strongly.

- A mod to change the weapon's base element would be cool. Really. Or maybe using forma on it should provide us with such options? :D

 

As for the others:

- Flux and spectra has a very limited range, especially for such mediocre damage. Instead of buffing damage too much ( a little is fine) give them "unlimited" range please. It would be nice to make their shots rebound from walls (or give us mods doing that https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/79196-concepts-of-mine-consumables-merchant-gambler-and-void-cause-i-like-that/) too :D It would be fun to weave a web of deadly lazerz! Right now it feels weird/wrong to have a(2 actually) clan research weapon that has quite the requirements to build be weaker damage wise than the Soma and have even limited range. And even the Soma is not overly strong.

- Embolist needs range, badly but I admit it looks too small to possess such powerful pressure (and amounts of gas). Maybe I know a way around: make the gas stay for a long time. Numerous clouds close together would accumulate into one, strengthening and enlargening it (thus not straining the graphical engine and the players' rigs). Ideal weapon against infested and overall good for trapping and defense, creating ever damaging pools of death.

- Synapse has the range problem too (maybe it's contagious). Let it chain from an opponent to another. Problem solved :D

 

Also:

 

...

And by the way, a correction:

"too many players discontent" should be "to many players discontent"

 

The original said "Update 12 brought the “Buff Train” and too many players discontent;" which means the U12 brought the buff train and it has brought discontent for too many players so I think it was actually fine. I mean as far as I know (do correct me if I'm mistaken) but "I've brought you a souvenir" is a grammatically correct, right? Then, there is no need for "to". No, not trolling, I'm actually interested in such things.

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