The Orokin, The Grineer, The Corpus - Their Place In Orokin Era Of Human Society

[Morec0]

Okay, before I begin I have to give a BIG thanks to this thread ( https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/175865-filling-in-the-blanks-what-embers-codex-entry-tells-us/page-2#entry2055693 ) who's discussion led me to this realization. Go check it out as well, because it is legitimately thought-provoking.

 

Here's the brief rundown of which each was:

 

Orokin - Government

 

Grineer - Military

 

Corpus - Corporations

 

Anyway, before I can go in-depth into how each of these line up with each section, a look must be taken at the general history of how this division came:

 

As the Stalker's Lore states, the Tenno were gathered around the Orokin, their "Cold and Gold Emperors," before they, on the ninth beat of the drum, slaughtered the Orokin and ended their empire. This destruction would have touched everything that the Orokin possessed, especially the military and business sectors. The groups that would become the Grineer and Corpus - the soldiers and merchants - retreated within themselves, and thus arose the two greatest factors in the solar system.

 

Now for the specifics:

 

The Orokin:

 

The first place to look for evidence of the Orokin being the pre-Collapse (why caps? We'll get to that with the Grineer) government is in their towers. Golden, clean, shining - this type of beauty and upkeep reeks of materialism, which reeks of political corruption. And what better place to look for political corruption than at the top of an unchallenged Empire? It's the same throughout history: whenever there is a government so secure in itself, those at the top of it abuse their wealth and influence to better their own stations and well-being. The traps within the tower also speak testament: what kind of political system doesn't look to keep itself safe? And what better way to avoid any potential assassins than trusting no one and letting machines you control do all the security work? Well, control to the point that they're automated in their absence, but that's future tech for you.

 

A far more-telling example, however, again comes from the Stalker's lore: the use of the word Empire. Now, I may be mistaken, but I don't know too many examples of where the word "Empire" is used metaphorically. With this in mind, it's clear that it was a literal; and that sometime in this human future the entirety of humanity is taken over by a galactic empire, for a safe, and secure society. Jokes aside, this already lines up the Grineer and Corpus' place: an Empire needs a military and people to run its businesses. Even if all business was owned directly by the Empire, they'd still need some sort of sector to manage the transactions (think East India Trading Company of England's Imperial Age).

 

For The Grineer:

 

Remember that "Collapse"? It comes straight from the Grineer lore, which talks about some kind of collapse which led to the Grineer starting their attempt to control the galaxy. This collapse, as I see it, is the fall of the Orokin Empire, and who better after the fall of one government to create their own than those with the guns? The military? It's hard to put the Twin Queens in this since we know SO little about them, but I think it's safe to say that they (or, at least, some predecessor to them - earlier clones?) were the highest-ranking officers of the time, and with that influence over their underlings that took to the fall of the Orokin Empire with the idea to create their own.

 

Now, here's where the military really comes into play. Think back (and I'm sorry to do this to you, but it's for a good cause) to the Star Wars prequels. Yes, there were droid armies, but they had glaring flaws: they couldn't think for themselves (aside from the occasional comic relief bit) and they were tied to a central control system. That's not ideal for a soldier - especially the second part - but those movies also gave us a MUCH better option: clones. They're easy to produce, possibly easy to age artificially, and we know that they were already being used in the past. Their lore describes them, at the time after the Collapse, as being "decayed" from "a toxic womb" - by the time the Orokin fell, they had already been in use for so long that their genetic base was collapsing, hence the need for mechanical replacement parts to make up for their shortcomings. Individuals such as Vor and Ruk also work well into the idea of the Grineer having once been an Orokin military because of their interest in Orokin artifacts; why not study the power of the previous superpower so you can become like it?

 

"But why did the Orokin need the Tenno if they already had a standing army they could use against the Sentients?" Because, as Excalibur's lore says; what they had wasn't working, it was being turned against them and overwhelming them with it. They needed a more elite force: that force became the Tenno.

 

Lastly, The Corpus:

 

I don't think I have to say much to convince you about them being one big corporation. Everything they say DRIPS with capitalism (not that it's a bad thing, I enjoy living with capitalism but will admit it has its flaws) and the overwhelming feel of a corporation: they're ruled by a Board, they look into so many different areas to try and turn a profit, they have struck up deals with the Grineer in the past (as companies today produce things for the military's of the world). The fact that they're human is undeniable; they look it, they talk English (for the sake of an English version of the game, anyway - if it were within their power I'm sure DE would have Spanish, French (given that they're Canadian, though, why isn't this a thing?), ect. voice actors).

 

The Corpus also seem to not have succumbed to any type of degeneration, likely because they don't clone like the Grineer do but reproduce naturally (we don't see any female Corpus, but we can assume they're there, somewhere, not implemented yet - it's not exactly something NEW to games to leave out both genders of a race to be represented equally). Back to Corporations, though: nepotism. Frohd Bek is looking to get his own son on the board, to secure the family power on it through two members being of the same bloodline. Also, their incredible age (Darvo is 105 and LOOKS SO YOUNG!) they seem healthy enough; businesses have RnD departments, sometimes in multiple things. Corpus clearly specialize in weapons manufacturing, but who's to say they don't have medicine as well? Hell, they'd HAVE to have medicine, given they can't just reclone themselves like the Grineer - and given how much longer we live today than we did in the past, it's seems clear that the medicine as developed by Corpus tech as developed well.

 

They're also just as interested in the Orokin Era as the Grineer were - although their focus is more towards the Tenno, they DO work with void technology (Arid Fear) and crewmen appear in the towers (so they were looking for more things to turn a profit on in there at some point).

 

(I padded the Corpus a lot since it's so blatantly obvious with the bluntness of the points, and there really isn't much else we know about them).

Edited February 9, 2014 by Morec0

[KoshLovesYou]

The biggest flaw in this theory is that the Grineer seem utterly stumped by and do not use (save for the obsessed Vor) Orokin technology (which even Vor ponders upon the source of Tenno powers), and the Corpus only understand it in a pseudo-religious context. This more suggests that the Grineer were already an outside or combative force the Orokin were struggling against, while the Corpus are the 'fall out' or survivors of the old empire.

[BizarreFetalChimpanzee]

Very well thought out and written, and it makes perfect sense with the current state of the factions.

[Morec0]

The biggest flaw in this theory is that the Grineer seem utterly stumped by and do not use (save for the obsessed Vor) Orokin technology (which even Vor ponders upon the source of Tenno powers), and the Corpus only understand it in a pseudo-religious context. This more suggests that the Grineer were already an outside or combative force the Orokin were struggling against, while the Corpus are the 'fall out' or survivors of the old empire.

 

True... Of course, keep in mind that everything the Orokin were seem to have been banished into the Void or buried. Who knows for how long? It's like ancient history for us: we don't fully understand what the past was like, just glimpses and vague understandings of how it was.

 

It's only recently because of the work of people like Vor that their technology is being uncovered again. Of course, you are right; it is a bit of a flaw, and we'd need a strong timeline to really determine how much they should/shouldn't know.

 

EDIT: It's ALSO possible that they broke off BEFORE the fall of the empire because of the Tenno; due to their losing against the Sentients. That might allow for more time for them to forget, but again: we need a solid timeline.

Edited February 9, 2014 by Morec0

[Morec0]

Very well thought out and written, and it makes perfect sense with the current state of the factions.

 

I thought so too, sadly the length of the thought seems to intimidate most people.

[Legion-Shields]

Nice OP.

[Poolboy]

These three branches of society may have been the inspiration to the three factions, but the fact that the Orokin resided within the Void while the other two are/were in real space is a glaring problem. 

 

 

Still a really cool idea.

[Morec0]

These three branches of society may have been the inspiration to the three factions, but the fact that the Orokin resided within the Void while the other two are/were in real space is a glaring problem. 

 

 

Still a really cool idea.

 

I'm not sure they were ALWAYS in the void, or at least solely were. I mean, we see the Grineer hunting for Orokinn relics in the galaxy itself, and there's even a Corpus ice-planet room that if you go down into the pit you have to cross you'll stumble across what looks like some kind of Orokin structure being uncovered.

[Morec0]

The biggest flaw in this theory is that the Grineer seem utterly stumped by and do not use (save for the obsessed Vor) Orokin technology (which even Vor ponders upon the source of Tenno powers), and the Corpus only understand it in a pseudo-religious context. This more suggests that the Grineer were already an outside or combative force the Orokin were struggling against, while the Corpus are the 'fall out' or survivors of the old empire.

 

Just a quick addition to this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baghdad_Battery

 

We know that exists, but we're not sure HOW it was used. The same could be said for Orokin technology

 

(and I HATE that I had to bump this for this, I really do, but I just thought of it and wanted to make my stance a little clearer than what I first said in response to him).

Edited March 21, 2014 by Morec0

[Brimir]

The biggest flaw in this theory is that the Grineer seem utterly stumped by and do not use (save for the obsessed Vor) Orokin technology (which even Vor ponders upon the source of Tenno powers), and the Corpus only understand it in a pseudo-religious context. This more suggests that the Grineer were already an outside or combative force the Orokin were struggling against, while the Corpus are the 'fall out' or survivors of the old empire.

 

Pretty much all technology (Grineer and Corpus alike) is reverse-engineered from ancient Orokin technology. This most likely includes Grineer cloning technology (and is why the clones are getting worse and worse each generation; the Grineer don't fully understand how it works in order to repair the problem).

[Morec0]

Pretty much all technology (Grineer and Corpus alike) is reverse-engineered from ancient Orokin technology. This most likely includes Grineer cloning technology (and is why the clones are getting worse and worse each generation; the Grineer don't fully understand how it works in order to repair the problem).

 

Well, actually I think that the issue with the clones getting worse and worse is that you're making clones of clones (given the original genetic material can't/likely couldn't be preserved forever), and because of how cloning works each copy IS INEVITABLY a LITTLE defective, and thus making a copy of that copy and then a copy of that copy leads to more and more problems that eventually make it unstable (hence the need for augmentation).

Edited March 21, 2014 by Morec0

[Brimir]

I don't think they clone clones but rather they have two "pure genetic blueprints" (one male, one female) which they derive all clones from. As you said, making a clone of another clone is a baaaaad idea.

 

Then again, the Grineer were never known for being intelligent.

Edited March 21, 2014 by Brimir

[Morec0]

I don't think they clone clones but rather they have two "pure genetic blueprints" (one male, one female) which they derive all clones from. As you said, making a clone of another clone is a baaaaad idea.

 

Then again, the Grineer were never known for being intelligent.

 

The genetic material wouldn't last forever, and cloning STILL requires a new host egg of that species or of something close (hence why its kinda impossible for us to bring dino's back) and that, likely, comes from currently-living female Grineer. The Corpus MIGHT be selling, but that's up for debate (as we don't know NEARLY as much about how the Corpus operate like that).

 

And, of course, there's the issue of keeping that original genetic blueprint alive and keeping it around. A lot can go wrong, but I'm not NEARLY an expert enough on it so...

[Brimir]

We don't know enough about the cloning process to make any calls about what would or would not work, really. You can't really compare it to what we know about cloning today.

[Morec0]

We don't know enough about the cloning process to make any calls about what would or would not work, really. You can't really compare it to what we know about cloning today.

 

Without knowing ANYTHING ELSE. Yes, I can. It's a logical assumption, just as I can assume future trees will grow the same way in the future as they do today.

[Brimir]

Without knowing ANYTHING ELSE. Yes, I can. It's a logical assumption, just as I can assume future trees will grow the same way in the future as they do today.

 

It is never logical to assume.

 

It is highly illogical to assume that Warframe technology would be limited in the same way as ours.

 

It is also highly illogical to compare something like technology, which is ever-changing and advancing, to the biological function of plants - something which has worked the same way in millions, if not billions, of years.

Edited March 21, 2014 by Brimir

[Morec0]

It is never logical to assume.

 

It is highly illogical to assume that Warframe technology would be limited in the same way as ours.

 

It is also highly illogical to compare something like technology, which is ever-changing and advancing, to the biological function of plants - something which has worked the same way in millions, if not billions, of years.

 

Given the other evidence I have, aye, I can make a logical and informed assumption, a theory, whatever you want to call it, about how it will work. 

 

You're assuming yourself that they rediscovered it from The Orokin - they very well could have rediscovered it FROM OUR TIME.

[Brimir]

Given the other evidence I have, aye, I can make a logical and informed assumption, a theory, whatever you want to call it, about how it will work.

 

You have no evidence.

 

You compare the Grineer cloning technology (which you know absolutely nothing about because there is nothing to be known, other than it is apparently failing) to our modern day understanding of cloning.

[Morec0]

You have no evidence.

 

You compare the Grineer cloning technology (which you know absolutely nothing about because there is nothing to be known, other than it is apparently failing) to our modern day understanding of cloning.

 

You have no evidence either.

 

You compare the Grineer cloning technology to something that we don't even know the Orokin had.

[Brimir]

You have no evidence either.

 

You compare the Grineer cloning technology to something that we don't even know the Orokin had.

 

I never claim to speak with absolute certainty when it comes to lore (unless it is something that has been clearly established, such as the nature of Prime equipment).

 

This most likely includes Grineer cloning technology (and is why the clones are getting worse and worse each generation; the Grineer don't fully understand how it works in order to repair the problem).

 

You, however, say that you can compare the Grineer cloning technology to our modern day understanding without a shred of evidence to back it up.

 

Without knowing ANYTHING ELSE. Yes, I can. It's a logical assumption, just as I can assume future trees will grow the same way in the future as they do today.

 

That is highly illogical and quite ridiculous.

Edited March 21, 2014 by Brimir

[Sloan441]

Some interesting thoughts, but I have some contradictory ones myself.

 

We'll start with the corpus, since they're simplest. I don't see them as a cut-throat capitalists--at least not entirely. What they most resemble are guild based trade consortiums. The quasi-religious thing reinforces this. They're insular and family based, but with alliances, and we've all seen how fast those can be dissolved. Very Venetian in some ways.

 

The grineer. Some of this depends on how much stock you put in the data mined U9 info. I'm willing to at least acknowledge it as an influence, since DE was actually thinking about this stuff as background. They're relatively recent players in the origin system. They've hijacked and stolen technology to get where they are. They're very aggressive and expansionistic. As for origin, I suspect they've ultimately developed from the lower ranks of whatever the orokin had for a conventional military. The tenno did, after all, wreck the orokin leardership as seen in Stalker's musings.

 

The twin queens. I don't think these are grineer in the strictest sense. This is pure speculation since there's so little info, but if they are the remnants of an actual orokin organization I'm willing to bet they are AIs or some form of transhuman entity. We've seen how orokin AIs deal with humans (more or less) when left to their own devices in the towers. What's to say the grineer are any different? If you're an AI with expansionistic ambitions, why not clone surviving soldiers to rebuild what was destroyed? The other hint, though admittedly a stretch, is the reference to orokin society being managed but what might be AIs--cold and gold emperors. The fact that it's not doing the grineer any longterm favors wouldn't be any real concern to such an entity. Ends and means and all that.

[Morec0]

I never claim to speak with absolute certainty when it comes to lore (unless it is something that has been clearly established, such as the nature of Prime equipment).

 

 

You, however, say that you can compare the Grineer cloning technology to our day understanding without a shred of evidence to back it up.

 

 

That is highly illogical and quite ridiculous.

 

You could have fooled me.

 

But as I see it: we CAN compare them BECAUSE they both function under the same base principle. With that knowledge, and with the lack of other knowledge, we can theorize that they were similar. Just like how people once thought the Sun and planets revolved around the Earth. Were they wrong? Yes. May I be wrong? Yes. But until further evidence SHOW THAT MY THEORY CANNOT WORK I will stick to mine.

[Brimir]

The other hint, though admittedly a stretch, is the reference to orokin society being managed but what might be AIs--cold and gold emperors.

 

 

The Orokin Emperors do bleed "torrents of blood" in Stalker's Codex entry though. That sounds distinctly biological in nature, wouldn't you agree?

 

 

 

When the ninth beat rang a torrent of blood filled the stadium, loosed by Tenno blades. The drums, the Empire, fell silent forever.

 

What is interesting is the part that follows

 

 

 

The drums, the Empire, fell silent forever.

 

Everything just stops when the Emperors are assassinated. It could be that the Emperors used some sort of telepathy or to a lesser extent some form of mind-control to keep the Empire together. The Neural Sentries in the Void tells us that the Orokin were no strangers to this kind of thing.

 

 

 

 

We CAN compare them BECAUSE they both function under the same base principle.

 

Baseless assumption upon baseless assumption. We do not know that they both function under the same base principle and as such your entire argument crumbles. To just assume that our modern-day technology and the technology in a sci-fi video game set many, maaany years in the future works the same way is utterly silly.

Edited March 21, 2014 by Brimir

[OniDax]

Pretty much all technology (Grineer and Corpus alike) is reverse-engineered from ancient Orokin technology. This most likely includes Grineer cloning technology (and is why the clones are getting worse and worse each generation; the Grineer don't fully understand how it works in order to repair the problem).

 

Do we know this? Or is this an assumption. If we know this, then it's interesting. Given the current Corpus design of the Braton, I'd say Corpus weapons and drones at least are reverse-engineered Orokin tech. Not sure about Grineer stuff, though. Maybe Grineer stuff are reverse-engineered Tenno tech. With the "imperfect" cloning, isn't that common knowledge that cloning isn't perfect? I know Star Wars did the same thing, and other sci fi mediums. Do we know that the Orokin used cloning technology?

 

As for the Orokin, I think that they, and the Sentients, were human. The Orokin certainly do bleed (like you've said). But 'cold' and 'sentient' can both refer to humans, particularly in their behavior. If the Orokin somehow modified themselves to be more logical and less emotional (like the Observers in Fringe, or the Aschen or Asgard in Stargate), then that'd be a contrast to the sentience -  the ability to feel, perceive, or to experience subjectivity - of the Sentients.

Edited March 21, 2014 by AntoineFlemming

[Brimir]

Very few things we can know for certain.

 

However, with the Corpus, as you say, it is the most likely scenario.

 

The Grineer... the game makes it pretty clear right off the bat that they are lusting for Orokin Tech just as much as the Corpus (it is the reason why Captain Vor and Sargas Ruk exist after all). While we can't say for certain, I think it is pretty safe to assume that at least their weaponry is based on Orokin technology - the existence of Braton, Latron and Burston Prime tells us that the Orokin did use both ballistic weaponry and energy-based weaponry.