Tenno Clock, Discussions Of The Community [Youtube] (Ep 89)

[Calayne]

Normally would not double post but Wanted my reply to Calayne to be separate

 

Are you sure? I did read the google Doc and multiple of his linked thread and replies. I do like to read suggestions when people put effort into feedback as he has done. I however seem to have come away with different info from you.  

 

The following are just quoted from the Volts main post in the thread you linked:

 

"Because I came to a simple realization: to ultimately fix balance would require fixing the fundamentals and the most basic of those is obliterating the scaling of damage"

"which can only happen without scaling damage"

"which can't happen until you stop damage scaling"

"You can't fix difficulty without making TTK static by eliminating scaling damage"

"You can't have build diversification until after damage scaling is killed"

"The fact is, damage scaling is the primary thing holding every single one of those things in that non-exhaustive list back"

"The fact is, nuking scaling damage from orbit is the prerequisite for balance in this game."

" Scaling damage must die"

"As long as scaling damage remains, anything beyond the coarsest of balance (which is mere common sense) is outside the range of possibility"

" The canker, the ulcer that is damage scaling must be removed. "

 

Source:

OP in thread: https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/181670-de-why-i-give-up-on-balancing-warframes-components/

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Hmm, perhaps our understanding of the word "Scaling damage" may differ? I understand "Scaling damage" as damage that increases with gameplay of some sort: Either through mods, a steady increase of damage via level ups, passive increases, or whatnot. Is this what you mean by "Scaling damage", or is there another understanding of that word?

[Traeyze]

@ Loz I disagree that stealth/low kill runs aren't rewarded.

If you do a run of an Assassination [Ruk is the main one I do] as Loki you can avoid alarms and the general density of enemy mobs once you reach Ruk is lower, meaning you have less fodder to deal with. Conversely playing as a Rhino can make the level a lot more painful as you will draw a lot of attention even if you are relatively quick/spamming STAHMP. This applies to any mission with a 'target', like Capture too.

I see stealth in a run and gun game as a way to get past things easily and quickly, of facilitating rush. Loki is a good example of this, he can just dash past people. I don't think there is any debate Loki is one of the best frames for Void cap speed runs.

The balance? Draw attention or have your invisibility run out in the middle of a group of enemies and you're gonna have a bad time as well as having to deal with the boss in a fragile frame [being invisible doesn't trigger phases properly so the game trolls you].  To me that shows a distinct choice in stealthiness vs sturdiness that players have the choice to pursue at their discretion.

I understand the appeal of a MGS style sequence but I wonder if that really is possible in a game where fluid movement and momentum is the main appeal. That is part of why the Mastery test was so jarring for so many people [and part of why doing it as Loki was so funny]. Sneaking around behind boxes and stun gunning people is just a different gear (!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!).

That said I guess that all revolves around whether you consider Loki's invisibility 'real' stealth. In a game where normal frames could achieve meaningful stealthiness he would inevitably be broken as a result.

Also, I do agree more should be done to reward the little stealth we do achieve, like bonus points for lower detection counts or indeed a specific kind of mission dedicated to that idea, or even just ways of dodging groups of enemies by hidden paths or running along walls or whatever. I would love to rush a boss as Loki and have him sitting for tea or something because I caught him with his pants down.

 

A specific game mode would also make it more like that team mates would share your enthusiasm for stealth, as opposed to the inevitably easier nuke path. Making it instant fail would cause the forums to collapse inwards on itself and form a small black hole, though.

I was actually refering more to how you balance which abilities you bring to battle and things like range and power when I talked about the idea of the kind of flexibility a frame should offer, but point taken.

[Lorche]

A shame really I didn't found this video back until now. Well, I was a silent lurker, after all. Until some weeks ago.

Do note that I'm typing this as I'm hearing the video, so do mind if I say things that already explained in some way or another. I'd rather type my ideas soon before I forgot about it lol.

 

On the whole balance things, I like your way of thinking.

Serration/Hornet Strike/raw damage booster really need to be revised or cast aside (Me personally? Tie it into weapon leveling like you guys said, and throw the Serration/Hornet Strike/raw damage booster mod to the deepest end of Void). With that, (hopefully) one aspect of the balance matter will get solved (Personal opinion time. While I'm supporting of removing the raw damage booster, Corrupted Mods like Heavy Caliber are still acceptable because of its 'high-risk-high-reward' nature, and multishot/elemental/punchthrough are useful, but still on the optional level of urgency. Though that's not the case these days.....).

As for the other thing.......damage scaling for myself are heading in a good way since Damage 2.0. Problem rises when the game didn't tell players much about it, and almost all of us have to rely on outside source to understand the System better. True, Codex can help you fill with estimsted numbers. But I think I don't need to tell what most of player feels about Codex system (it wasn't pretty)

 

Stealth do need to be implemented, probably more like the the Stealth Mastery test but more dynamic in movement pattern and enviroment settings. With that, players are being more creative to use their frame in a more stealthy way. Don't forget to give incentives to do so.

Yeah, it will be a long and hard path to get there, but if done well, it can bring variation to the whole 'kill-fest'. Which brings me my opinion about the general mods

 

As for general mods, there are many candidates in the frames we seen so far (worst offender: Excal's Super Jump. I still use this skills for manuevering hard places, by the way). For me, I think somehow it can also used to change the current skill system into a progression system (and by progression system means that you UNLOCK the skills and the ugrades by leveling the warframe). With that, perhaps it can boost the overall skill usage (minimalize early-ult spammer. Kinda need to reach a certain,level to use the ult at full power. Like, ah, DoTA), and give 4 more space for unconventional mods. I know this don't really contribute much to 'ult-spamming' problem, but it's a good start IMO.

 

I do think that some unconventional mods need to be merged/make separate mod slot that cannot be forma-ed, in order to avoid usual treatment of the mod slot for abilities (Forma-ed, replaced it with another polarity to help spamming certain skill). Possible candidate for becoming general skill (IMO): Rip Line (Make it become Grapple. Basically Ripline thet cannot damage enemies), Super Jump (self-explanatory), Contagion (can become, like you said, energy blade. Extra damage but drain energy per second or hit) and Sonar (can be applicable to become Weak Point Sense or something). Meat Body sounds interesting, but need a huge work (and possibly a name-change). And I think an immobile version of Invisibility/Smoke Screen (let's say, Meld) help player more of becoming one step closer to become a ninja.

 

As for Stalker, focus attention system doesn't suit his character well (for me, he's the type that will hit you when you're the least aware of him). BUT, I think it can be implemented for both Harvester and Grustaag. But, also remember to put some precautious measures so that new player won't hit this system before they're ready. Probably adding a script so Harvester/G3's appearance algorithm are affected by the player's mastery rank. Lesser the rank, lesser the chance of getting attacked. Or clear a planet (most preferred: planet that only linked tot he previous 'hub/intersection' planet) from every faction and bosses; then make that planet an invasion-exclusive battlefield.

 

Stalker also need a better A.I. to be honest. Standing still while shoot his Dread is not how a stalker operates.

Edited March 5, 2014 by Lorche

[MDRLOz]

Hmm, perhaps our understanding of the word "Scaling damage" may differ? I understand "Scaling damage" as damage that increases with gameplay of some sort: Either through mods, a steady increase of damage via level ups, passive increases, or whatnot. Is this what you mean by "Scaling damage", or is there another understanding of that word?

Umm not looking at the meaning of the words, I am just point out that Volt literally used terms such as " Scaling damage must die" in his thread and yet you think he still wants damage to increase? In some of the other documents he explains to get rid of serration and Multi shot is important. He seems to imply the damage value of things must become static and fixed. Is that not what you got from his stuff?

Edited March 5, 2014 by MDRLOz

[Calayne]

Umm not looking at the meaning of the words, I am just point out that Volt literally used terms such as " Scaling damage must die" in his thread and yet you think he still wants damage to increase? In some of the other documents he explains to get rid of serration and Multi shot is important. He seems to imply the damage value of things must become static and fixed. Is that not what you got from his stuff?

 

Perhaps in the earlier ones, but from the conversation I had with him on the thread (@de: I give up on balance, etc), he acknowledged that people still would like to steamroll enemies. So he suggested that damage be capped by Proficiency, and damage mods be given out for each weapon type when your relevant proficiency is a high enough level. Granted, increasing Proficiency seemed like it would require insane amounts of grinding, even for non-paying players, but the avenues for obtaining plat has been largely expanded, though the economic assumptions are a topic for another day. 

 

I think he's quite fond of using those rather extreme terms, but I think he was referring to the current scaling of damage, which is quite broken. He also suggested adding two more mod slots to the weapon, to account for the regular Damage mod and Multi-shot mod. I personally feel that damage mods need to contribute much less to the damage of the weapon, to not only allow the gap in weapon damage to be reduced, but also to allow other mods to compete in viability; This by no means suggests that we'll be extremely weak, because I'm also gunning for small passive increases for damage with the increase of Mastery Rank. 

 

Of course, Volt himself did mention that the balancing of weapons itself can be done by simply tweaking the numerical values of the gun so that they're all eventually more alike, even in the current system. I concur, that's really all it needs, though the amount of absolutely broken mods would surely widen the gap. Heavy Calibre provides nearly non-existent drawbacks for doubling your damage, as well as Multi-shot. Some of these need some serious value tweaking, I feel. And Multi-shot should consume the same amount of ammo it adds, not just keep it at one. Trading efficiency for a higher DPS is a valid tradeoff. Having a mod which almost always doubles your damage yet takes nothing in return should be too good to be true. 

 

Overall, I personally quite like the idea of having a cap to damage, so that planets can be appropriately planned for a specific power level, beyond which, you can easily curb-stomp it. How that is implemented, though, is still pretty up for debate, but I think it at leasts addresses the issue of having nothing to look forward to with Mastery (currently), balancing content for a specific level and allowing players' power levels to be predictable, if not outright known. It'd do wonders for our Endgame, surely.

[Sixty5]

This is a rather interesting thread. I don't have time to go over all the past episodes of this, but I'll give you guys a follow and my endorsement (for whatever that is worth).

 

I look forward to future episodes.

[MDRLOz]

Of course, Volt himself did mention that the balancing of weapons itself can be done by simply tweaking the numerical values of the gun so that they're all eventually more alike, even in the current system. I concur, that's really all it needs, though the amount of absolutely broken mods would surely widen the gap. Heavy Calibre provides nearly non-existent drawbacks for doubling your damage, as well as Multi-shot. Some of these need some serious value tweaking, I feel. And Multi-shot should consume the same amount of ammo it adds, not just keep it at one. Trading efficiency for a higher DPS is a valid tradeoff. Having a mod which almost always doubles your damage yet takes nothing in return should be too good to be true. 

 

Overall, I personally quite like the idea of having a cap to damage, so that planets can be appropriately planned for a specific power level, beyond which, you can easily curb-stomp it. How that is implemented, though, is still pretty up for debate, but I think it at leasts addresses the issue of having nothing to look forward to with Mastery (currently), balancing content for a specific level and allowing players' power levels to be predictable, if not outright known. It'd do wonders for our Endgame, surely.

Yeah Volt does a lot of extreme points. I myself was suprised how many times i could quote that from him.

 

The examples you list above all all things i really like, espically multishot and heavy calibre. Those mods have no downside and far to much benefit.

 

A power cap would be good and specific for making challenging endgame. (e.g. once mobs are scaled approriate to damage it becomes a skill game again). However I think another way to balance between weapons is to give them more of a Niche. I made a thread somewhere about different plants/environments having diffferent affects on weapons. The result is that different weapon types to better under certain conditions and better in others. These could be fixed by planet or change randomly. E.g. Sandstorms on Phobos affect non-energy based weapons to be less accurate.

 

This is a rather interesting thread. I don't have time to go over all the past episodes of this, but I'll give you guys a follow and my endorsement (for whatever that is worth).

 

I look forward to future episodes.

WHOOO Sixty5!

 

The epsiode length is omsehting we always are concerned about. However we try to keep it short but end up rambling. Espically that Drew... going on about when somebody he knew did something. Sometimes i just cant stop him talking. Maybe we should do less topics... or force a time limit on each question... Might play with some things next episode.

 

*Hack And Slash*

 

Loads of cool point Lorche.

 

I dont know How i feel about Super Jump. However it is a bit generic and could be replaced to give Excali a bit more variety.

 

Here's a piece of art from your rantings later on:

 

Don't mind if I put this here, on Xeno's request!

AWESOME PIC CALAYNE!

 

EDIT: Wait... IS that Pic from the last point I made... From my movie Reference... You are my new personal Hero!

Edited March 7, 2014 by MDRLOz

[Sixty5]

I have no problem with the length, just no time to go back and rewatch all of them.

[Xenogelion]

So episode 21 has now been released and can be found on the first post. Additionally we've got two new clan emblems we'd love to give names to but neither of us can say who's find is the best, can you?

Drew's Find

Loz's Find

Calayne, on 05 Mar 2014 - 1:08 PM, said:

Here's a piece of art from your rantings later on:

*snip*

Don't mind if I put this here, on Xeno's request!

I'd like to appologise, Calayne. This should have been this weeks Community Spotlight but I honestly ballsed up and forgot, it will be next week! Regardless this is still absolutely amazing.

Sixty5, on 07 Mar 2014 - 7:50 PM, said:

I have no problem with the length, just no time to go back and rewatch all of them.

@Loz:

See, I told you people didn't have a problem with a length, it's just going back to watch past eps and these fine people shouldn't need to as most of the older stuff is no longer relevant, you rushed that last ep for no raisin! I challenge you sir to a marathon of Red vs Blue!

Edited March 10, 2014 by Xenogelion

[Calayne]

So episode 20 has now been released and can be found on the first post. Additionally we've got two new clan emblems we'd love to give names to but neither of us can say who's find is the best, can you?

 

 Drew's Find

 

 Loz's Find

 

 

I'd like to appologise, Calayne. This should have been this weeks Community Spotlight but I honestly ballsed up and forgot, it will be next week! Regardless this is still absolutely amazing.

 

 

@Loz:

See, I told you people didn't have a problem with a length, it's just going back to watch past eps and these fine people shouldn't need to as most of the older stuff is no longer relevant, you rushed that last ep for no raisin! I challenge you sir to a marathon of Red vs Blue!

 

 

Dee-yum, those are some good looking emblems. I like the one Loz got, it's just so ninja-sweet! 

 

Also, no problem, Xeno! No need to mention it, I'm really not bothered about it at all :P   No need for any spotlight at all, to be honest.  xD

Glad you guys liked it, though! Kinda like how I love your show, haha!

 

Edit: LoL, "Make it more... Tactical."

Edited March 10, 2014 by Calayne

[Traeyze]

Good episode, lasted me an entire Void survival. I don't mind the longer ones though.

Re the door things on the one hand yes they are anti rush but on the other they are pretty avoidable.

The first time I did a Ruk run as Loki after the update [at which time I wasn't even aware they had been added] I accidentally ran through one and obviously was taken slightly aback. However, given how obvious they are visibly, from there I just made sure to take note of doorways and whether they had the thing above it and had no troubles maintaining momentum.

Sure, it adds another minor hurdle but as noted Corpus and Void levels have a few and they do add an element of excitement and skill to rush runs as you PRO TIER your way through them.

Though with the shock thing... honestly never bumped into one. They don't seem to spring much in Ruk apparently and that is about the only Grineer I have done recently.

Re the event I feel that the emphasis on forming a team to effectively make it through this event was perfect. I think it raised some interesting points as well.

- This really is a coop game and it is all about setting up effective teams. The people who were complaining the event required strong frames were probably in teams of 4 Rhinos or [sigh and this happened to me twice] Ash/Loki/low shield frames. Instead, if they had a Mag (polarise) and a Frost (globes) or maybe two, even if they were just set up with basic mods, they would have found it a very straightforward event. It was all about finding your role and playing it out, and although that made the event 'easy' I think it is more that it shows THE POWER OF TEAMWORK.

- The event again brings this debate of what everything should scale to. I broke 2000 on the Nightmare version with a level 10 Ash in our team and still thought it was too easy. The idea that people would argue the secondary event was too hard, especially to break 1000, is pretty frightening. When we all rolled our eyes at the first part of the event I am glad DE noticed, but the event badge being a prize at 1000 still shows they are trying to cater to the lowest common denominator.

- Single players have 2 chat channels to organise PUGs [Region and Recruit], which many people (including me before this event) may not have taken advantage of. The idea that you would have to ever do the event solo screams to me that you are too shy to join a clan or ask to join/advertise a run on one of these two channels.

The first time I ran the basic hijack it was with 3 strangers from Recruit, one of whom was a Zephyr who immediately went AFK for the entire round, the others a Loki and a Frost. Despite that by working together the 3 of us got 790 or something by spamming globe and polarise and the Loki dashing around ripping stuff up.

Sure, sometimes you have to deal with silly players that PUGs seem to produce but having to get together and think these things out was a great change to the usual 'EVERYONE BRING YOUR STRONGEST NUKES' approach to most Alerts/grind sessions.

- I agree the Earth part was the hardest part.  A lot of people doing the run seemed to not understand how the system worked either, which meant I did a lot of running. There seems to be two main versions of that level: that big open one and a really small tight one, where you can almost jump from one spot to the other. I hadn't ever done the small one and actually found it a lot more enjoyable and hectic. Hoping they put more work into this mode, I don't mind it.

- The rewards of the event, the Status chance mods, is what I was hoping for. I am hoping Proc builds keep getting more viable, I find them a lot more fun than yet another wave of Crit king weapons.

[Sixty5]

Nice episode guys.

 

There isn't a huge amount I have to comment on, but there is some stuff, which means that it will only be a moderately sized text wall.

 

Firstly, on the avatars, I don't really like the idea of having it change to whatever frame you are running. Firstly since avatars are a plat purchase and making more plat only items perceived as nessecary is a bad idea, along with making them available for credits, since a number of people have spent the plat for them.

The second reason is more personal. A bunch of people are recognizable by their avatar on the Forums (I'd like to think I'm in that number haha) and having the avatars always change would get a tad confusing, though, if DE allowed us to make our own forum avatars that problem would be lessened.

I'd much rather see the frame a person is playing represented in writing beside their name in the player stats window. Its a much simpler solution IMO.

 

Secondly on the event. I personally just solo'd the first tier of it and stopped. There was no more reason to continue it as I saw. It was only after the second harder iteration came out that I decided to actually go for it and set a respectable score (I was getting laughed at in council chat for my 630 points). I never really found the second part of it overly hard either, though to be fair I did all of my runs with a semi-organised team comp.

My favourite thing about this event is that we really do have a mission type that encourages real team work, beyond a support frame spamming their 3rd skill while everyone else kills stuff. It is the first time I've actually used Mag's shield polarise for anything more than the AOE nuke it is. However, I still feel the event is a little short, but then again this is in the wake of grinding out well over 200 Gradivus missions.

 

The hazards I like. They, as you said, ad a bit of much needed interest into the Grineer tilesets. I'd like to point out that in my experience the lights that discharge have sparks around them that you can see beforehand if you are looking for them, and you can disable the light traps with a well placed bullet. However I am kind of irked that the magnetic doors don't strip powers in the same manner dispel does. Vanguard Rhino Prime has the same base speed as Loki, and can easily rush through these barriers with no consequence thanks to his Iron Skin, meaning that one of the most rushy frames is even more rushy.

The hazards do seem to be anti rusher, encouraging players to slow down a bit and look at their surroundings a bit more, and having this again negated is a bit sad in my book.

 

As far as the stream went, it gave me quite a bit more faith in the game. Particularly in melee 2.0, given that up until now I assumed it would be nothing more than some stat buffs, new animations and having to pull out your melee weapon to use it properly. 

The increased hit reaction, timed combos, combo stacking and that badass reaper prime animation have convinced me otherwise, and I can feel myself starting to get a bit more excited for it. That being said, I still do not expect melee to become a truly viable playstyle compared to gunplay, especially if combos take a large number of hits to start dealing real damage.

Also the Spearmint Scythe is amazing. Nothing beats beating the crap out of enemies with a Neon-pink Loki wielding a fart Candycane.

 

As for Prime stuff, I like that they are keeping the continuity of what is present in Prime Access. Particularly with the 90 day Credit and Affinity boosters. Those are a big part of its value in my eyes. The Extractor I could take or leave. the thing I find nice about the 8-hour timefroam is that I can put it on overnight while I sleep and have it finish in the morning as I get up, and not sit taking damage for 4 hours.

I ended up going for this Prime Access since I felt that DE have done enough good lately to warrant my continued support, hence I coughed up.

The void is always going to get more and more diluted. That is a fact. Honestly I have a feeling that we will be seeing more void game modes in future, even (groan) Interception. Which will help the problem, but then there is still RNG. There have been numerous ideas of how to fix that, hell I have posted one myself, but unfortunately topics like that go under the radar all too often, and drop tables are always a fairly sensitive issue. I'll actually link said topic here since you like text walls, and since this one is a bit too short for my taste. RNG Fix 

 

 

Anyways, I enjoyed the episode and the discussion. I look forward to next weeks one.

[Xenogelion]

@Traeyze:

    It's great to hear how our opinions line up so well, I'd like to hear about your opinion on "should there be a 3rd tier?".

 

@Sixty5:

    I think we can all agree that this event has been a huge success on DE's part. I feel that the largest part that has made it so successful has been the complete delusion of the players thinking the job was done when it really wasn't. Unfortunately DE can't pull the same trick twice and they're going to have to step up their game if they want us to drop our jaws again. Saying that though I'd be happy with just another two tier event in a similar manner. Do you think there should be a 3rd tier?

 

I honestly didn't know there was more than one type of door for the Grineer tileset... this would explain why sometimes the door can electrocute you if the game randomly makes both does one... I'll have to keep my eyes open.

 

To be honest I think the easiest and possibly fixes the problem of needing harder content it Tower 4 keys. Then the stuff can spread out, the dilution be fixed and there would be more challenge to the game for those who want it... he says realising people may not like harder tears to get the stuff they want. I'm sticking with my idea, Tower 4 keys!

[Traeyze]

I 'would have liked' to seen it but yes, I agree a lot of clans would have been peeved at the inevitable mad rush that would have caused. I am aware that mine didn't have more than half of it's members online/aware of the second tier so having only 2 days would have just rewarded the 'hardcore' clans [who to be fair were always going to win anyway].

 

I think the real problem would have been the problem the second tier introduced: for a newer player to win all the prizes the skill/power gap was too high. As a result they lowered the prize threshold to pretty much 'just pass the level' [i did a disastrous run with a really poorly set up team where I pretty much ran it home myself while they ran in circles and still got over 1200]. For them to add another tier would just broaden that gap and force them to make it another 'do it for the joy' or simply a way for the active clans to further cement their leads on the boards.

 

Like a lot of the interesting and high level content [to me the game doesn't really get hectic until enemies are around level 50 and are a legitimate threat] it won't be rewarded because the forums would be flooded by people who are mastery 2 saying it isn't fair it is all hidden behind a skill/grind/pay wall.

 

It is worth noting I have only been playing around  3 or 4 months and I'd like to think I can run with the best of them so I don't have a lot of sympathy for the arguments the game is too hard or that events shouldn't be out of reach for newbies. I've only played a couple of online games and that mentality, if making items easier to get, is contrary to a lot of the others where they go out of their way to make it as agonising as possible.

 

I agree re Tower 4 keys too. Start at 50 and bam. We're set. Prime trading means you could get the items even without doing it yourself so that couldn't be a concern.

Edited March 11, 2014 by Traeyze

[Lorche]

I've noticed the typos in my last post. Oh well, I'll do a better job typing this time. English isn't my primary language, after all

Again, I'm typing this again as I watched the video. So, do mind if I'm missing something and typed that down

 

Firstly, how may times you forma'ed your Grakata?

 

I don't know if the Rhino Prime Avatar aren't present in the accessory pack in the first place. I don't really want to say much on the Prime Access, because I don't use them, at least for now.

 

Broken lights, like you guys said, are an accessory to the ship. It makes the Grineer ship has more 'flavor' to it. The spawning rate of the lamp, however become a major problem in Survival mission. Especially on the situation when you failed to keep the life support and have to abandon quickly to escape. I've experienced myself. 5 HP left + randomly placed broken lights behind the door + even more lights scattered on the way to the extraction? Huge trolling there. Wasted all of my revivals just to escape the map. The thing I can think of, is to make a code or something in the game so when the life support are totally empty, and you need to escape, make all of the lights and trap doors offline. Also disable or minimalize the broken lamp and the trap door's spawn algorithm on Infestation and Invasion tiles. When you're running a same mission over and over, the flavor can counter-productive and turned bad.

 

Other than that, spawn the lamps and trap doors as long as it still on a reasonable number on the other tiles. It's a flavor, and if it's indeed an unintentional 'anti-rush', so what? People need to slow down their paces in this game more than ever. Which bring us to the...........Tetra's Doom

 

Before I state my opinion, I want to make clear things first.

 

- First, that video's placement on the livestream was gold. But like you said, it won't work next time.

 

- Second, I guess........ on a side, our community are stupid in a way, no offense. I've felt that they won't stop complain about everything, even perhaps look for something to complain on purpose. It's so shown on this event. Perhaps thats what makes us human *sigh*

But on the other side, DE kinda not explain it too well for the players in the mail that the second tier of the event are optional.

 

With that clear, let's move on.

 

This kind of event............need to be more often. It won't alienate new players (let's be honest, they're getting the butt-end of the stick), gives challenge to new players, and we're actually seeing the true essence of Warframe (Cooperative PvE) in this event. This game needs to love their new player base, and this event did just that. Just execute it in different way next time. The charm of this one won't be as effective next time. Personally, this is the event that I enjoyed the most, from all the events I've played. I can stroll the map in a relaxed way, do the event, and still making fun of the new Hek. Relaxing and fun. Two things that was missing from this game for a long time. Well, Darvo eases up the tension up a bit by his alerts and his 'rebelious' statement to his dad.

 

The problem rises when the livestream came, and what follows then. When I read the second mail after the Devstream, I felt like I HAVE to do the second tier, where the reality is, you don't have to. And I believe I'm not the only one who thought of that. DE could use a better wordings on the mail next time, if they wanted to include the tier system again. Like "Tenno, we need to split into several teams. The first team, go disable the power core. Second team, disable the shield core. The shield core will have harder obstacles, since it was located deeper inside the shipyard. You can help both team, but it's not neccesary. There's no penalty if you can't help the shield one", or something like that. The point is, make it clear next time that the second tier are optional and purely challenge, also the benefits of doing the higher tier are purely cosmetics, not better stuff. Yeah, my overall peeves into this event are only two: the community's feedback, and the wording of Lotus' second mail after the Devstream. Other than that, brilliant event.

 

Void needs a new Tier. Honestly, it's so crowded as for now with the addition of Rhino Prime, Boltor Prime, and co.

 

But maybe, perhaps from this event, we can saw something new. Or perhaps we pretended not to see it for a long time. The high-barrier-of-entry to new players, the 'lack-of-challenge' for veteran, the virtual gap between both group of players, and the conflicting expectations between both group. *Late Edit* And also the way community are going to become its own poison.

It's not related to the video and stuff, and maybe I'm thinking too much about it. But............what do you guys think?

Edited March 12, 2014 by Lorche

[MDRLOz]

Im Just going to Copy Drew because its easy:

 

@Traeyze:

Interesting to hear that people went and made groups for the event. I feel I should spent more time in the various game chats. Being in a clan does seem to isolate player experience in some ways. If the next event is key based I am going to have to have a go at pugging it.

 

 

@Lorche:

I have formaed my Grakata 3 times. I would do more but I know we will get a Grakata wraith at some point and don't want another scenario where I wasted two formas on Twin Vipers the day before wraith twin vipers got its announcement.

 

I am going to have watch out for those light as I commonly forget what my life support is at.

 

Was it really that high an entry for new players?  Hmm maybe I should make a twink account, that is not geared, to see things for new players point of view.

 

 

Nice to see most people enjoyed the event. I agree its the best on I have been apart of and also I would like to see more. Why not do small or repeatable events with cosmetic rewards?

[Lorche]

 

@Lorche:

I have formaed my Grakata 3 times. I would do more but I know we will get a Grakata wraith at some point and don't want another scenario where I wasted two formas on Twin Vipers the day before wraith twin vipers got its announcement.

 

I am going to have watch out for those light as I commonly forget what my life support is at.

 

Was it really that high an entry for new players?  Hmm maybe I should make a twink account, that is not geared, to see things for new players point of view.

 

 

Nice to see most people enjoyed the event. I agree its the best on I have been apart of and also I would like to see more. Why not do small or repeatable events with cosmetic rewards?

 

Be prepared to face the wrath of the Broken Lights. You have been warned :P

 

You have no idea. Venus is a big blow to all new players because the state of their equipment and Damage 2.0.

MK-1 Braton, Lato, and Skana can hold on its own in Mercury.

Entering Venus? Damage 2.0's effect kicks in with a good force.

 

It's true MK-1 Braton can last longer with proper modding. But, new players usually don't have that privilage.

And don't get me started on Lato and Skana -__-

Edited March 13, 2014 by Lorche

[MDRLOz]

Hmm sounds interesting. Really should try a blank Account again and see what its like. 

 

I find these broken lights just silly. They are just random, Why are the Grinner Lights broken everywhere. Is there no Grinner Repair people? 

 

Its an ok concept but it should be condensed. Instead of a one light bulb every other tile it should be a chance that the whole tile is having electrical problems and needs careful navigation. This would slow the flow/change the game up a bit. Imagine if you enter a room on the ship but the floor and some of the wall / lights are electrified and will zap if you get very close. The electrified lights atm in this are just random and almost un-noticeable. 

 

Cant wait for Drew to upload this weeks episode. It is awesome! Had so much fun making it. 

Edited March 16, 2014 by MDRLOz

[Lorche]

Hmm sounds interesting. Really should try a blank Account again and see what its like. 

 

I find these broken lights just silly. They are just random, Why are the Grinner Lights broken everywhere. Is there no Grinner Repair people? 

 

Its an ok concept but it should be condensed. Instead of a one light bulb every other tile it should be a chance that the whole tile is having electrical problems and needs careful navigation. This would slow the flow/change the game up a bit. Imagine if you enter a room on the ship but the floor and some of the wall / lights are electrified and will zap if you get very close. The electrified lights atm in this are just random and almost un-noticeable. 

Alternative way,

- Strip all of your mods from your current frame,

- Buy all three basic weapon (MK-1 Braton, Lato, and Skana) from market

- Play the first node on Venus, solo. Or bring someone, incase Harvester or Stalker pops out.

 

Well, Grineer are the best in damaging things :P

 

Serious answers. I'm glad the damage and the flash are reduced. But, what needs to be fixed is their spawn and placing algorithm.

Again, it adds more taste to the otherwise-bland Grineer Ships, but definitely needs rework fast.

 

That's a good idea, but I'm afraid it will be more deadly than the broken lamps >.<

Edited March 16, 2014 by Lorche

[Traeyze]

I finally had a chance to see those lightbulb flashes, they are indeed bizarre. I was able to spot a few ahead of time, but a fair few came from angles and places that were pretty obscured which made it difficult to deal with them without stopping and really looking around.

 

The sensation I got was that they were almost entirely designed to force Rhinos to run ahead of the pack and eat the shocks; at least that was the only way my group could reasonably progress without being zapped and the ensuing convulsions. It sort of reminds me of a couple of the old table top dice rolling games I used to play where the Dwarf class could disable traps so they would vanguard the charge through dungeons. It does fit the way Rhino plays as well, since once he hits the enemies Stomp will give the rest of the team 8 seconds to come forwards and do the actual damage [well, if you ignore that the Rhino will probably be enough to do it himself anyway]. Problem is that not many other classes can deal with the shocks so easily. 

 

Definitely needs a rebalance.

 

As for early game... I personally started around Christmas and Damage 2.0 was already started by that point. Here are some of the things I noted at the time:

 

The biggest issue when starting was lack of [officially provided] info. I haven't tried the built in guides that were introduced so I don't know if they are any good but I did a lot of reading online and at the time it would have been very difficult to progress otherwise. Heck, even the forums are fine for it. The idea that people play online games without looking at starter guides kind confuses me but still that was one of the major concerns.

 

The market makes finding the Braton and Aklato difficult if you aren't willing to click on everything. Those guns are an easy early update and a good taste of the kind of progress you can make by weapon chasing. Again it was another website that I found this information on at the time. If newer players new about the credit purchasing option for these weapons earlier they would find the game a lot more digestible.

 

It is worth noting that by Venus you do have a few mods. Once you get to fusing you can get stronger pretty quickly, especially as Vitality and Redirection are common drops. That said, in previous episodes Xeno and Loz talk about the idea of Serration being given as a reward or at least found earlier. I agree with this sentiment, it certainly would have made things easier. Elemental mods also need to be a lot sooner, ice for Venus would help, etc.

 

A lot of people try to play solo early on, which is where a lot of the issues come in. This is a PUG organised squad game so the idea that you should be able to solo Venus with a base unit strikes me as really contrary. Finding people to play the early planets is pretty common, heck often you find rank 10 players grinding to carry you [as a rank 9 now I help new players where I can in turn] and by the time you are at Mars and potentially have a second frame and are grinding against Infested you can start to consider solo play.

 

I didn't feel early game was too hard outside of coming to terms with the way the systems work and to be frank I am only ''okay' at this game at best, Once I worked out the deal with powering up mods Excalibur and hyper Slash and Dash made everything a lot more straightforward until I started getting the equipment and mods necessary to do harder stuff.

[Xenogelion]

So episode 22 has now been released and can be found on the first post. Loz and I opted to start using a theme to choose our Clan Emblem for the week and this week was Funny. Needless to say Loz nailed it but it would be great if we knew who's Clan these belonged to:

 

Drew's Find

 

 Loz's Find

 

 

@Everyone:

  Just so you're aware I'm not ignoring anyone. Things have been quite mental trying to sort out my secret project and with the Fan-Fiction submissions that I'm finding myself with very little time to myself and more so time to check the Forum. I do intend to get back to you guys but hopefully the secret project will be revealed soon.

Edited March 17, 2014 by Xenogelion

[Calayne]

WHOAAAAAAAAA! SILVERBONES IS A BRIT, TOO?! Way awesome.

 

It's okay if you don't respond much. Understandably, life is pretty hectic after you reach a certain age. Thanks for keeping up with the updates, though. Just gonna watch the video, now.

[Xenogelion]

@Calayne:

   Are you saying I'm an old man?

[Calayne]

@Calayne:

   Are you saying I'm an old man?

 

Only if you think you are! *Wink*

 

But then, that would qualify me as old as well. I don't even get to play Warframe for more than a couple hours a week.

[Traeyze]

Just touching on what you guys mentioned:

- Regarding Melee I think the debate sometimes revolves around the expectations of what equipment should be able to achieve. The name 'primary' denotes it should be your main weapon but does that mean that Seconday and Melee options shouldn't be viable let alone equally viable?

My real fear is that currently DPS is not necessarily the biggest issue that Melee faces, so things like combos to keep them viable is not what I am worried about. Orthos, Ichors, Galatines... they can get you pretty darn high and still be outputting well. It wouldn't be hard to buff a lot of the existing weapons if damage was really the concern.

No, the real issue is that very few frames can get close enough to enemies to use melee without being under very serious danger of being eaten alive by pew pew pew lazerz everywhere. Heck, even the ones that can get close enough are still better off avoiding it where they can.

And that is where I worry as to what Melee2.0 will bring to the table and why I am not expecting much. It doesn't matter how much the swords hit, we can have 40k crits already, if we can't get in and use them what is the point and what will the difference be besides E bash when we do and E rhythm bash post update.

- I love the idea of more passive influences, especially in the Primes. My biggest trepidation in the effort I am putting into farming Rhino Prime [which is going horribly] is that I'll still have to forma it to catch it up to my current one, and I think that is a bit sad.

I personally wouldn't mind a give and take stat adjustment. For example Mag Prime having more energy but slightly less shields [so that your safety blanket is compromised a little but you have more in the tank for Polarise to make up for it]. Rhino having more speed but less vitality [which makes adding Vitality to his build more pressing which a lot of people might find a genuine tradeoff]. Ember Prime having more duration but less range. Whatever, the specifics could be endlessly debated but it would make both frames viable in their own special ways but will generally favour the Primes since output tends to trump defence in min max builds, etc.

That said I'm someone who tends to favour the Primes either way, so my input is somewhat moot haha.

- For what it is worth the community on this forum is pretty solid all things considered. I've come off a few other, really bitter and nasty communities [FFXIV, fighting game forums, etc] and although I do think the wahhhhmbulance is out of control here sometimes, a lot of it comes down to the game still lacking a clear focus and apparent goal.

'Broken' and 'OP' are two terms I've really come to hate since starting Warframe though. People throw it around for everything. If everything is OP then nothing is OP. God.