[Poll] Should Frost's Snow Globe Be Changed Back?

[Davoodoo]

Make snow globe follow frost, ice leaders can already do that. Reduce radius, let it be large enough to fit 4 persons in but not too big so it wont be easy target. Change its resistance type to alloy or ferrite armor and allow it to benefit from frost armor.

[Volt_Cruelerz]

Polls don't help anything.

 

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1Q4PwHYrI2T1BTga7dnDiJcrWFECLxIu1c4RJvQCtVyk

[NetSlayer]

I think the extra options besides yes/no are unnecessary.

[-CM-Sean]

Polls don't help anything.

 

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1Q4PwHYrI2T1BTga7dnDiJcrWFECLxIu1c4RJvQCtVyk

If you have a  better idea propose it on the forum. because the way feedback is right now is just out of control and completely unhelpful, its just back and forth argument with nor real sense of what the majority will like!!!

[Volt_Cruelerz]

If you have a  better idea propose it on the forum. because the way feedback is right now is just out of control and completely unhelpful, its just back and forth argument with nor real sense of what the majority will like!!!

I proposed my Snow Globe change back in, what was it, October?  I still stand by it.  Notion's got a good one too.  I've seen several reasonable suggestions for it.  Stop concerning yourself with the arguments of the masses.  Arguments between the uninformed mean nothing.

 

And stop thinking about the majority.  Think about what is best for the game.  If it's best for the game, they'll grow to enjoy it.

Edited March 2, 2014 by Volt_Cruelerz

[-CM-Sean]

I proposed my Snow Globe change back in, what was it, October?  I still stand by it.  Notion's got a good one too.  I've seen several reasonable suggestions for it.  Stop concerning yourself with the arguments of the masses.  Arguments between the uninformed mean nothing.

 

And stop thinking about the majority.  Think about what is best for the game.  If it's best for the game, they'll grow to enjoy it.

 

I'm not talking about snowglobe, I AM talking about majority.  That kind of thinking in my opinion is completely self centered.  Let me create soemthing that "I" think is best for the game, and others will learn to enjoy it??? What?

 

I know its a little far fetched but we don't just let someone or a few people pick the president of the united states, and say this is best for the county.  The people will learn to like him.

 

Saying people will grow to enjoy it?  how exactly does this work?  So NO. I'm sorry this is not a good way and not a very effective and methodical way of getting the majority, yes MAJORITY of players to vote on what they like or not.

 

If developers want feedback from the community there needs to be an organized methodical way of getting feedback from as many players as possible.  On the other hand they could do whatever they want, cause they are the game developers and it is their game.

 

By the way the majority of the feedback i get whenever I ask about frost is that they don't like it.  So how will they grow to love something they don't like.  Do we want to force people to like something?

 

Stop thinking about majority? who should we think about? whatever is best for the game is whatever the players think they will like about the game, not the other way around.

 

everyone has an opinion and who are we to say who is uninformed or not?  for all you know i can be considered uninformed!!! or you can be considered uninformed.

[Volt_Cruelerz]

I'm not talking about snowglobe, I AM talking about majority. That kind of thinking in my opinion is completely self centered. Let me create soemthing that "I" think is best for the game, and others will learn to enjoy it??? What?

I know its a little far fetched but we don't just let someone or a few people pick the president of the united states, and say this is best for the county. The people will learn to like him.

Saying people will grow to enjoy it? how exactly does this work? So NO. I'm sorry this is not a good way and not a very effective and methodical way of getting the majority, yes MAJORITY of players to vote on what they like or not.

If developers want feedback from the community there needs to be an organized methodical way of getting feedback from as many players as possible. On the other hand they could do whatever they want, cause they are the game developers and it is their game.

By the way the majority of the feedback i get whenever I ask about frost is that they don't like it. So how will they grow to love something they don't like. Do we want to force people to like something?

Stop thinking about majority? who should we think about? whatever is best for the game is whatever the players think they will like about the game, not the other way around.

everyone has an opinion and who are we to say who is uninformed or not? for all you know i can be considered uninformed!!! or you can be considered uninformed.

Actually, you were, or at the very least, I interpreted it that way. You said, if I had an idea to post it because the forums were a mess. I said that I already had posted and pointed to another example as well. I then proceeded to say that the arguments between those who are uninformed are meaningless. If I must, I will clarify my meaning. I have yet to see a rational discussion have any justification whatsoever for reverting Snow Globe other than the idea that the current implementation sucks and until we can get something more reasonable, revert it (which I personally reject to on principle). Those that come in saying "REVERT IT >:(" aren't actually providing anything to go on. They're just acting on emotion. Arguments that appeal to emotion rather than reason carry significantly less weight. Now, I'm not trying to downplay the value of an individual's belief set. See my above link on polls to see that I do in fact believe that their perspective is one to be respected and investigated.

On to the rest of your post...

I don't know if I'd call it self-centered, but I could certainly see an attack on my stance on that grounds that it resembles elitism, which is a similar subject to egocentrism. To this I simply respond: do you let the ignorant mob lead the knowledgeable few? I say no. The concern is determining who the knowledgeable are, which as I've said previously, should be those rise to the top through rational discussion.

Actually, it is far-fetched, because we do have a small number of people pick the President. This group is called the Electoral College and it's there for the sole purpose of making sure the public doesn't do something mind-numbingly stupid because they're uninformed. The United States of America is a democratic federal republic, not a mere democracy. We elect representatives because they are more knowledgeable than we are. How do the representatives get to the point where they're on the ballot? They rise to the top through rational discussion (in theory anyways; unfortunately, funding and charisma also play large roles).

If you make a decision that is in the public interest, it doesn't matter if they like it or not. Let's take the example of John Adams since you already brought up the American government. People hated a lot of what he did, but the fact was, in the end, he prevented a war with France. A war would have been wildly popular, but it would have destroyed our fledgling nation. Let's take another example of the public being stupid from American history. Andrew Jackson was a wildly popular president. When the Cherokee nation appealed to the Supreme Court for the ability to stay where they were, they actually won their case, much to the disappointment of Jackson and the public. I believe the quote of Jackson before he sent them out west on the "Trail of Tears" was "John Marshall has made his decision. Now let him enforce it." Public opinion is flawed and incomplete. Making an unpopular balance change is the right way to go if it means saving the game. Removing something critical just because such a change is popular doesn't make it right.

What do I mean by learning to like it? Simple: provided that the decision that was made was proper, they will either acclimate and remain in ignorance or they will ultimately understand why the change was made and accept it.

Also, just because people are unhappy does not mean they are justified in being such. If someone is uninformed, how can they possibly be justified in their belief? The public does not properly understand the Snow Globe nerf. They just know that now they're weaker. They don't know why. But that does not in any way shape or form make them right. Should we force something on the playerbase? Not if it can be helped, but if it comes down to it, game design decisions shouldn't be made based on emotional gut reactions of the uninformed.

I genuinely do find it funny that you think that what is best for the game is what the mob thinks is going to be best for the game (for the record, I mean no disrespect when i say that). They don't know game design. They know what they like and don't like right now. They don't know why on a fundamental level, much less why they will or won't like something in the future.

Who are we to say who is and is not informed? I believe it becomes apparent enough after rational debate. You may be uninformed. I may be uninformed on this as well. I am on many other things. As an example, I don't know the first thing about Loki's proper playstyle, which makes it very difficult for me to make reasonable balance suggestions for him. If I am wrong about Snow Globe, I welcome the discussion that proves me wrong in that saying that old Snow Globe was OP (for the record, I do not endorse the current implementation and think that they nerfed it way too hard).

In short...

1. The public is uninformed.

2. The uninformed are not in a position to suggest reasonable changes.

3. Only reasonable changes should be considered for implementation.

4. Pure democracy relies upon the public.

5. I do not believe pure democracy to be the proper process, based upon the above statements. 

6. If a reasonable but unpopular change is implemented, I believe that in the long run, the public will accept it.

7. I may be wrong and accept that possibility with a standing offer for anyone who wishes to debate me to go right ahead.

 

 

EDIT: It's actually somewhat saddening to me to know that what you are arguing is almost exactly the same argument I once put forward for another game a few years ago.  Please don't mistake my disagreement with you for lack of respect for the stance you take.  Concern for the public opinion is not unreasonable.  I simply wish to not be bent by the whims of popular demand.  It is my firm belief that if a game is well-designed, the playerbase will react positively, even if they can't pinpoint why.  I simply don't trust the uniformed to be the source of good policy.

Edited March 3, 2014 by Volt_Cruelerz

[-CM-Sean]

What is even the difference? All I can tell from Frost 2.0 is that Ice Wave and Avalanche are a hell of a lot more effective...and Snow Globe has a timer attached, like all other duration powers.

Can someone, please, explain it to me? In fact, explain Freeze's difference too, because that's the one I'm actually upset about.

Basically The snowglobe has a hp and duration attached.  while this is not an issue in places like mercury, where you really won't need a snowglobe, it is becomes unusefull with higher level enemies on the starmap.