Everyone Hates Rng

[thegooseking]

Alea is a time-honoured traditional component of game design. There are a few good games without an element of chance, but they are vanishingly small in number.

 

Nobody likes it when the dice don't go their way, but to 'hate' it is to be overly invested in the outcome, which any Buddhist (not that I'm a Buddhist, but y'know) will tell you is a problem with the player, not the game.

 

There is also a massive gulf between disliking the outcome of a dice roll and disliking the dice.

 

I'm too tired tonight to talk about whether or not the use of RNG (note: "use of RNG", not RNG itself) in Warframe is well-designed, but I do recommend, for the sake of sanity, that people practice responding to disappointment in random results with a bit more tranquility.

 

There is a particular line by the Reverend P. Shooter in the film Hot Fuzz that will unfortunately be blocked by this forum's profanity filter, but that I nonetheless expect as a response. Don't worry. I'm aware of how hippy happy clappy this all sounds, and it's not even necessarily really my kind of thing, but I just think it's a perspective that needs to be voiced.

[BizarreFetalChimpanzee]

-snip-

One of my biggest problems with RNG in Warframe isn't even that it exists, but that DE uses it far too much in the stead of far more entertaining gameplay elements.

 

We don't need a token system. The only place I'd even consider one is endgame dungeon type content if you're trying to get a set of gear. Even then, it really depends as that system can be used on ALL the endgame gear at that point. The point of a token system in these games is to help get you some more guaranteed gear at the level to help you tackle the content. Not to get everything with absolute assurance. Takes the point of a loot game, in case you've forgotten what this game is. Think Diablo. Think PSO. etc. etc.

I'll be honest, when I first saw Warframe, I didn't realize it was a loot game. I saw it advertised as a third person action/shooter, so when I realized that it was moreso based on loot than the gameplay (or lack thereof), it came as a surprise. As far as RNG itself, my biggest issue with it in this game is that it is too relied upon for "gameplay." I am fine with random loot, but not to the extremes that it is in in Warframe. My point of view in favor of a Token system is to actually, truly, reward players for their efforts over time. I can't think of anyone that enjoys playing something over and over and over and over to get nothing but worthless items, or items they already have (usually both). 

 

As far as the community goes when it comes to the "schism" between players when it comes to RNG, it simply boils down to the fact we have players (like myself) that are used to systems wherein you do X, Y, and Z, you receive item A as a reward, while we have another side of the playerbase (from which I'm assuming you are on, considering your reply [no flaming intended]) that comes from MMORPGs and loot based games that are completely used to systems wherein you do X action, you have a chance to recieve A, B, C, or D as rewards, with a further chance in some cases to get absolutely nothing. Both are valid game design standpoints, but clash so much that they leave a schism of opinions and debates on the threads (sometimes even flamewars). 

 

Honestly, I think part of the problem here with people complaining about RNG in this game (myself included) is that to many of us, Warframe was simply not advertised as a loot/rng based game, so our brains were smashed out with a lemon wrapped around a large, gold brick when we finally realized that it was far more dependent on loot than shooter/action gameplay.

Edited March 3, 2014 by BizarreFetalChimpanzee

[Yezzik]

The best RNG systems have protection built-in. In DE's case, that'd take the form of a stacking buff guaranteeing the inevitable presence of the G3. You might never get all the Brakk parts, but at least you could ensure that if you chose to farm it, you knew that at worst you would see them every X missions maximum.

 

Warframe doesn't have that protection, and that sucks because it means the game loses what could serve as a sense of progression.

 

For example, I have the Insane title in World of Warcraft. Of the various reputations that formed that achievement, I liked the Ravenholdt faction the most. I didn't know how many junkboxes I'd get each time I did a run, so I didn't know how many runs I'd need to make, but every time I did a full lap and went back to Stormwind to deposit them in my bank, I knew I was making progress.

 

I was always guaranteed something. In WoW, it was the knowledge that each junkbox I snagged was one less I had to farm. In Warframe, it should be the knowledge that each mission I run without the G3 breathing down my neck is one less I have to run before they're certain to show up.

[LoGicMoTion]

Mass effect 3/MP had the worst RNG ever.

Warframe not so much, play mass effect and you will surely hate that version of rng worst.

[thegooseking]

Mass effect 3/MP had the worst RNG ever.

Warframe not so much, play mass effect and you will surely hate that version of rng worst.

Well, there's a difference, in that I never felt like I needed the stuff locked behind RNG in ME3. Whenever that RNG gave me anything, it always felt like a bonus.

 

In Warframe, RNG extends even to resources that are pretty necessary.

[(PSN)friedricetheman]

I did 2 vault runs with a group of randoms today. Got Overextended on my first run and Heavy Caliber on my second.... I'm starting to love RNG..

[TheDoctah]

There has been many ideas to help with rng from different people over the months and with the amount of effort DE has put in to help with rng (which is virtually none) I almost want to tell people to not waste their time offering DE ideas on RNG. I think that the amount of rng in this game is overwhelming, one of the many reasons why I haven't played this game in some time. (on ff 14 now) and there are many games with rng in it that are still great games. DE however just downright sucks when it comes to managing rng. Their game is seriously flooded with rng, and I wouldn't have a problem with it if the game wasn't entirely made up of it.  Fact is however, DE has made a game 100% dependent on a broken rng system which in turn makes this game pretty hard to want to play after some time passes, even more so if you're not getting what you need. Many ideas has been thrown at DE and very little has been done with rng. There's no longer but slightly less painful road to take to get the things you want/need. Just a super rng vortex from start to finish. I hope I don't sound like I'm bashing on DE cause I'm not, I just hope they get it together so this game isn't so dependent on a bad rng system. Would love to come back to this game eventually!

 

[Silvershadow66]

RNG and CRASHING is the biggest issue with this game.

Wanna know something funny, there were litterally NO crashes back in CLOSED BETA. This game has improved since OP but its also had numerous crashing and server issues. RNG is just one of the problems.

 

I have had far fewer crashes lately than when I started playing back in July. For me the game is much, much more stable and this is on exactly the same hardware. I can't remember when I had a crash last, must have been 2-3 months ago at least.

[Sokina]

I have no problem with RNG. At all. But I've also seen games that try to eliminate RNG out of the equation, and those games are far from the Utopian society of super-happy-fun-times that a lot of people think.

 

Best answer is a mix of RNG and static rewards.I would be happy if you were able to "Salvage" prime rewards for components that you could use to build the prime that you want, for one. 

 

I don't mind RNG, but at the same time I believe anything a player does in the game should be rewarded with something. Stalker should have a way to attack you randomly, yes. But at the same time, players should have a method of attacking Stalker. A mix of the two. Balance.

 

But completely abolishing RNG and expecting everything to run smoothly is like destroying every gun in the world and expecting no wars. Absence of RNG will pave way for other problems. Stagnation. People talk about token systems a lot, and I agree, token systems are good.

 

Except that almost every single game I've ever played that had a token system was very RNG heavy in other areas, too. Guild Wars 2, for example. Yay, do dungeons and get tokens. Buy that dungeon armor. But there could also be unique drops from the bosses in that dungeon too. 

Like I said, balancing RNG so that it still rewards players for "losing the luck of the draw" is key. And no, I'm not biased towards RNG because I'm one of those "Super lucky people." I just don't hate RNG. And this is coming from someone who's done over 300 runs and not had the Harvester target her. And I have the Mark.

 

RNG needs to be refined. I don't need a goddamn credit reward for T3 survival, okay? T3 Survival and T3 Defense are probably "End game" as far as that word goes. Giving a silly credit cache is not a reward. RNG needs to be tweaked in this game, quite a bit. But I think a lot of people will find that "I hate when I don't get something I need, RNG needs to disappear" isn't exactly the best solution. No, RNG is fine. It's not as evil as people like to think it is. I'm glad Stalker and Harvester and G3 are random. What kind of goddamn assassins have predictable patterns and visit you right on time? The Dapper Trapper? "Excuse me, good sir, please fall into this hole at this time."

 

Removing RNG altogether would honestly make a stale experience. I would have everything and I would be bored of warframe if all elements of RNG were removed. I think what people really want is achieving...

 

....

 

The balance. Yes, the balance. RNG as well as static rewards. Loot tables should be furthered adjusted. I'm pretty sure nobody has ever got a credit reward from survival and though "Wow, this is exactly what I was looking for." Void loot tables in particular. 

 

It's either a Static Grind or an RNG Grind, kids. Pick your @(*()$ poison.

 

Valkyr: RNG grind: Kill Alad X times and get the pieces required to build her.

Scenario A: 3 runs, all parts required. Lucky guy.

Scenario B: 10 runs, missing one part. Unlucky guy.

 

Valkyr: Static grind: Whole set drops from Alad after the first time you kill him. Requires a lot more resources to build the components.

 

Scenario A: You have the resources required. Building Valkyr. Congrats! That was easy! You now have no reason to fight Alad anymore.

 

Scenario B: You don't have the resources required. Farm them. Oh, Neurodes are an RNG drop. RNG doesn't exist in this scenario, so you can combine Plastids to form a Neurode. Oh wait, Plastids are RNG based. RNG doesn't exist in this scenario, so you can get Plastids by combining Nano Spores. Oh wait, Nano spores are RNG based. RNG doesn't exist in this scenario. Let's give you a "resource token" after every run. You can buy resources from the free resource market using your tokens. Now you have to do a static grind to get the materials using these 100% guaranteed resource coins to build your valkyr. So 1 resource coin = 25 nano spores....100 nano spores = 10 plastids....100 plastids = 1 neurode...

 

Absence of RNG would turn this game into nothing but a boring static grind. It would make it mundane and routine. Proper balance of RNG and static rewards are what makes a game's system good. Utterly removing RNG is not that mystic solution people are looking for. It will not fix everything like magic. The key is to having RNG but rewarding players for losing. 3500 credits for surviving 55 minutes in the "Endgame" survival is not a reward.

Darvo's alert once had a forced Stalker spawn. We need things like that. We need events where Assassins attack more often. We need an event where Stalker gets "updated" in some way and DE uses "He's overcome with bloodlust" as an excuse to buff his encounter rates. We need a Harvester / G3 battle to help turn the tide of the starmap event, as an excuse to temporarily buff their encounter rate (And add an excuse to having both of them potentially turn up in the same map and fight each other.)

 

So you see, RNG is fine. But balance is being able to tilt that RNG more in your favor.  I like the idea of dismantling prime components into special parts that you can use to build other components, etc. Or at the end of a mission, a choice between A) Your usual reward at the end of the key, or B) some sort of "prime" material.

 

So if you get the part you need because RNG, then yay! Take it! If you don't want that, take the "Prime resource" and use it to build your own. Pseudo token system...side by side with RNG. I like to call it...

 

Choices.

 

PS Hire me DE.

Edited March 3, 2014 by Sokina

[SolidSp33d]

As far as RNG itself, my biggest issue with it in this game is that it is too relied upon for "gameplay." I am fine with random loot, but not to the extremes that it is in in Warframe.

 

>extremes

Play another loot game like Diablo. Your gear is ALL crafting and RNG based in those games. RNG is "relied" upon because that is what makes it a loot game in the first place. You don't know for certain you will always get what you want. You judge it buy the chances and keep going. The appeal is the same as those you continue to open up the next booster pack in a TCG. It makes getting what you want really satisfying. It can be more frustrating for some to get to that point (those who go in with the wrong mentality or those going for the rarest of the rare. We don't even have an equivalent to the latter in WF yet), but it extremely more satisfying because how much more value it gets from being hard to attain. That's the second part of it. Setting up the player driven economy and sense of value for your items. Things dilute the tables for a reason. It makes things labeled "common" actually common. It's what gives actual value to the label. It gives value to your exotic item knowing you got it through braving though content along with the luck of the draw. Stories built out of this stuff. There isn't a boring linear path with every step marked out for you to walk.

 

There IS a reason these games are very very popular. And I'll say it again, it's currently very mild in Warframe compared to other games, though it's still in development of course. Also what are you even talking about with "based more on RNG loot than gameplay?" That doesn't make sense. RNG is a distribution system for the loot that you get TROUGH gameplay.

 

I agree that it isn't well enough advertised as a loot game. It's why we have a ton of people whining of Prime pieces of blueprints being tradable among other things. But that doesn't demean the game itself in anyway. Talk about improving it as a loot game know that you are aware what it is, not as a pure-breed third person shooter.

 

Also I already mentioned what token systems are supposed to be used for in a previous post, check that.

(I read your entire post btw, just quoted a particular part for emphasis)

[SolidSp33d]

The best RNG systems have protection built-in. In DE's case, that'd take the form of a stacking buff guaranteeing the inevitable presence of the G3. You might never get all the Brakk parts, but at least you could ensure that if you chose to farm it, you knew that at worst you would see them every X missions maximum.

 

Warframe doesn't have that protection, and that sucks because it means the game loses what could serve as a sense of progression.

 

For example, I have the Insane title in World of Warcraft. Of the various reputations that formed that achievement, I liked the Ravenholdt faction the most. I didn't know how many junkboxes I'd get each time I did a run, so I didn't know how many runs I'd need to make, but every time I did a full lap and went back to Stormwind to deposit them in my bank, I knew I was making progress.

 

I was always guaranteed something. In WoW, it was the knowledge that each junkbox I snagged was one less I had to farm. In Warframe, it should be the knowledge that each mission I run without the G3 breathing down my neck is one less I have to run before they're certain to show up.

 

I'm not entirely sure if protection is the best word for it, but in any case I agree. It's a little like being guaranteed a rare card in every booster pack of a TCG. You might not ever get the card you want, but you know you're getting something good. Particularly something you might be able to trade for what you want. As long as there is something you might enjoy or something you can look forward to it will keep you going.

[BizarreFetalChimpanzee]

I'm not entirely sure if protection is the best word for it, but in any case I agree. It's a little like being guaranteed a rare card in every booster pack of a TCG. You might not ever get the card you want, but you know you're getting something good. Particularly something you might be able to trade for what you want. As long as there is something you might enjoy or something you can look forward to it will keep you going.

Even this I would be fine with compared to what we have now. Even if it's something I don't necessarily need, I'd be perfectly fine with getting rewarded with something that scales to the amount of work I did. I buy MTG packs time to time, partly because I know that even if I don't get a card I'm looking for, I know I'm going to get something good out of it, making whatever it costs worthwhile. It's just flat out insulting however, for instance, when I do 40 minutes of a T3 survival and land with a 5000 credit cache. 

Edited March 4, 2014 by BizarreFetalChimpanzee

[SolidSp33d]

Even this I would be fine with compared to what we have now. Even if it's something I don't necessarily need, I'd be perfectly fine with getting rewarded with something that scales to the amount of work I did. I buy MTG packs time to time, partly because I know that even if I don't get a card I'm looking for, I know I'm going to get something good out of it, making whatever it costs worthwhile. It's just flat out insulting however, for instance, when I do 40 minutes of a T3 survival and land with a 5000 credit cache. 

 

That's good RNG in a nutshell.

 

Get to work DE.

Edited March 4, 2014 by SolidSp33d

[XDeathCoreX]

There is reason to believe the dev team does not bother with all the grinding despite earning their gear.

[Ihasanameforme]

Granted RNG is used to pad the game out a bit, I figured DE would just eventually add something along the lines of.

>You get a X.X% chance of something attacking you, the more things you do that cause you to be marked by that thing, causes the % to increase.

For example, killing more bosses causes the Stalker to have a higher chance of spawning.

 

That way you can either purposefully grind 40 maps trying to get something to attack you, or just go about your business and have one random game where you're attacked.