BossEpoch Posted January 6, 2013 Share Posted January 6, 2013 (edited) Three days to craft a War Frame is a bit much, and adding to that you also need to craft all the other items which take Twelve hours each, on top of that the blueprints for the items you need are dropped one at a time rarely from bosses, and bosses also drop other Warframe part blueprints (In my time grinding I've only gotten Ember parts from a boss that also drops Ash parts) This is a bit much and it seriously tips the scales toward 'Pay to Win' On top of the fact that it would take a total of four days and twelve hours to craft a single Warframe (Not including the time it takes to grind for the blueprints in the first place). I honestly think the crafting time should just be removed entirely. Edited January 6, 2013 by Monorodo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ingway Posted January 6, 2013 Share Posted January 6, 2013 There is no pay to win in this format, being able to accelerate your crafting with money will only make you own it faster, so it's not giving you a power advantage like the "top" system. I do agree that the time it takes can be a bit absurd, but it's a extra way of making money, those who are not willing to wait to get their items can just pay and get it done faster, at the current pricing i do agree it's a waste but the price may change later. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Takamori Posted January 6, 2013 Share Posted January 6, 2013 On this one I have to say there is no pay to win , since the purpose on this one is "player impulse" , you can craft and you can receive the production without spending a dime. It would be pay to win if, you want to craft something you need to pay. Leaving the player with no choice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BossEpoch Posted January 6, 2013 Author Share Posted January 6, 2013 (edited) The fact that a player who does pay has a large advantage over a player who doesn't pay tips the scales toward pay to win. A player that does pay will always be more powerful than a player that doesn't pay, if that isn't the definition of 'pay to win' I don't know what is. -edit- I'm reffering to a paying player's ability to 'go pro' here. Edited January 6, 2013 by Monorodo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ingway Posted January 6, 2013 Share Posted January 6, 2013 The fact that a player who does pay has a large advantage over a player who doesn't pay tips the scales toward pay to win. A player that does pay will always be more powerful than a player that doesn't pay, if that isn't the definition of 'pay to win' I don't know what is. -edit- I'm reffering to a paying player's ability to 'go pro' here. We all know the pro system is a big no no towards pay to win, but the devs have been noticing the concern over this in the forums. It's still closed beta, so expect changes, as far as i can tell they will probably add the option to pay in credits to be able to unlock the pro weapons. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BossEpoch Posted January 6, 2013 Author Share Posted January 6, 2013 We all know the pro system is a big no no towards pay to win, but the devs have been noticing the concern over this in the forums. It's still closed beta, so expect changes, as far as i can tell they will probably add the option to pay in credits to be able to unlock the pro weapons. I know it's still a CBT and will most likely change, but I'd like to voice my concerns anyway. I'm glad that other players have critizied the pro system, because it's kind of ridiculous. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hakoten Posted January 6, 2013 Share Posted January 6, 2013 I know it's still a CBT and will most likely change, but I'd like to voice my concerns anyway. I'm glad that other players have critizied the pro system, because it's kind of ridiculous. And it's good that you voice your concerns. If people didn't, then nothing would get changed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FOLTHEON Posted January 6, 2013 Share Posted January 6, 2013 Pay to win? And how exactly do you draw that conclusion? How do you "win" in this game? There is no PvP whatsoever. The only things you can pay for is convenience and aesthetics. Being able to make your blueprints built faster is convenience. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ap0k41yp5 Posted January 6, 2013 Share Posted January 6, 2013 You can also pay for power with "pro". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Master_Shadow Posted January 6, 2013 Share Posted January 6, 2013 On this one I have to say there is no pay to win , since the purpose on this one is "player impulse" , you can craft and you can receive the production without spending a dime. It would be pay to win if, you want to craft something you need to pay. Leaving the player with no choice. There is no pay to win??!?? Aside from the fact that you're capped at 1/2 the level of what someone who pays for 'Pro' is capped at sure... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Takamori Posted January 6, 2013 Share Posted January 6, 2013 There is no pay to win??!?? Aside from the fact that you're capped at 1/2 the level of what someone who pays for 'Pro' is capped at sure... On the pro part I agree with you, but naggin about the craftin that is my disagreement, because craftin will happen anyways you just need patience. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Master_Shadow Posted January 6, 2013 Share Posted January 6, 2013 On the pro part I agree with you, but naggin about the craftin that is my disagreement, because craftin will happen anyways you just need patience. I just mentioned this elsewhere but the pro thing leaves a bad taste in my mouth for all the other cash shop items. I'm sure I'm not the only one who feels that way. If the pro system was different there probably wouldn't be as many of these threads as there are. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZomaCaius Posted January 6, 2013 Share Posted January 6, 2013 Do you know what Pay 2 win is ? This is Pay to win: Purchasing a damage boost and or weapon and or warframe that you can not get with in-game credits Waiting for a wareframe that you CAN get is not pay to win. Also there is no PvP element so Pay 2 win is inrelevent at this stage. It's tedius waiting for a warframe to complete after 3days yea i agree. but it doesn't bother me, and be Glad you can rush it so that you can farm the items and boost it for 50 platnimum. And i might add that doing battles to Get resoueces is actually fun. It's a good F2P model. In the end of the Day it's Free, and they want you to eventualy Spend cash on the game . of course its your Choice after all . Regarding the Pro part: Yea your weapons probably do less damage, but that doesn't matter since it's PvE . the other one can have spend the whole pro tree but if he can't aim way out of a paper bag then it's utterly useless. Poeple like you Think that when you notice that you're going slower or you feel "Left behind" Just because you play a Game for free that it's Pay to Win you obviusly have no idea what in good gods name you're talking about. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FanaticGamer Posted January 6, 2013 Share Posted January 6, 2013 Think about this for a minute, how much would a game cost like this normally? 40 bux? 50 bux? 60 bux? Spend that on founders program or platinum and most of your complaints go away. I bought the grand master founder package, but I haven't even used 200 platinum yet, I've crafted stuff but I just wait, why would I spend it on that? I just go to sleep, and when I wake up, I have it next morning, no problem. The only thing I spend my platinum on is credit and affinity booster. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aggh Posted January 6, 2013 Share Posted January 6, 2013 (edited) Pay to win? And how exactly do you draw that conclusion? How do you "win" in this game? There is no PvP whatsoever. The only things you can pay for is convenience and aesthetics. Being able to make your blueprints built faster is convenience. When players feel that they have to pay cash to succeed it hurts their interest in continued play. It also limits the variety of things a person might spend money on. Spending a couple bucks to put a decent melee/warframe/secondary/primary pro makes the game incredibly easier and all you really need to do. Just because no one is winning (though there are rankings that some people might care about) doesn't mean that it can't hurt player perception of the game. People don't like the idea of buying power in any kind of multiplayer game, so regardless of whether or not it's p2win, it's still bad. Do you know what Pay 2 win is ? This is Pay to win: Purchasing a damage boost and or weapon and or warframe that you can not get with in-game credits Waiting for a wareframe that you CAN get is not pay to win. Also there is no PvP element so Pay 2 win is inrelevent at this stage. It's tedius waiting for a warframe to complete after 3days yea i agree. but it doesn't bother me, and be Glad you can rush it so that you can farm the items and boost it for 50 platnimum. And i might add that doing battles to Get resoueces is actually fun. It's a good F2P model. In the end of the Day it's Free, and they want you to eventualy Spend cash on the game . of course its your Choice after all . Regarding the Pro part: Yea your weapons probably do less damage, but that doesn't matter since it's PvE . the other one can have spend the whole pro tree but if he can't aim way out of a paper bag then it's utterly useless. Poeple like you Think that when you notice that you're going slower or you feel "Left behind" Just because you play a Game for free that it's Pay to Win you obviusly have no idea what in good gods name you're talking about. Are you implying that good aim is actually important in this game lol? Any idiot can chain headshots on clueless bots. And with decent mods, that's not even necessary for most fully upgraded weapons. Edited January 6, 2013 by Aggh Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FanaticGamer Posted January 6, 2013 Share Posted January 6, 2013 (edited) When players feel that they have to pay cash to succeed it hurts their interest in continued play. It also limits the variety of things a person might spend money on. Spending a couple bucks to put a decent melee/warframe/secondary/primary pro makes the game incredibly easier and all you really need to do. Just because no one is winning (though there are rankings that some people might care about) doesn't mean that it can't hurt player perception of the game. People don't like the idea of buying power in any kind of multiplayer game, so regardless of whether or not it's p2win, it's still bad. Are you implying that good aim is actually important in this game lol? Bad depends on who you ask, I think it's perfectly fine, I'm not delusional to the fact, that the developers need to create an incentive for people to spend money. You get a S#&$ ton of stuff for free in this game, basically the entirety of the game, and to top it off, it's not even PvP, so it hardly matters. Honestly, people that complain about this games pay model, is feeling a little more entitled than what they should. Edited January 6, 2013 by FanaticGamer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aggh Posted January 6, 2013 Share Posted January 6, 2013 (edited) Bad depends on who you ask, I think it's perfectly fine, I'm not delusional to the fact, that the developers need to create an incentive for people to spend money. You get a S#&$ ton of stuff for free in this game, basically the entirety of the game, and to top it off, it's not even PvP, so it hardly matters. Honestly, people that complain about this games pay model, is feeling a little more entitled than what they should. Whether you think people have a sense of entitlement or not is kind of irrelevant. F2p players are important content for any game that chooses that business model. If they feel they're getting screwed, they'll just stop playing. Then the paying players have less people to play with and also start to lose interest in the game. Edited January 6, 2013 by Aggh Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FanaticGamer Posted January 6, 2013 Share Posted January 6, 2013 Whether you think people have a sense of entitlement or not is kind of irrelevant. F2p players are important content for any game that chooses that business model. If they feel they're getting screwed, they'll just stop playing. Then the paying players have less people to play with and also start to lose interest in the game. Honestly, if people have a problem with this game, they're going to have a tough time, finding any game legally that'll provide the same fun, for less money. In fact, I dare you to provide me with even 1 example, of a game offering more content than this for free. Inbefore: some obscure mmorpg. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fromoutofnowhere Posted January 6, 2013 Share Posted January 6, 2013 Changing the topic is stupid. I'm glad that you really enjoy this game, but making objective comments like you are paints you as a very close minded fool. Keep it focused on the Pay to Win aspect. Also, Pay to Win is very simple, if you have to pay to gain an advantage, wether it be PvE or PvP, than it is considered Pay to Win. Paying money to unlock more mod slots and bonus unlocks for a weapon or frame is paying to gain an advantage. Ignoring this is stupid. Speeding up crafting is not pay to win, you're paying to get something now that you've earned and it's the same frame that everyone else can find/craft/buy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FanaticGamer Posted January 6, 2013 Share Posted January 6, 2013 Changing the topic is stupid. I'm glad that you really enjoy this game, but making objective comments like you are paints you as a very close minded fool. Keep it focused on the Pay to Win aspect. Also, Pay to Win is very simple, if you have to pay to gain an advantage, wether it be PvE or PvP, than it is considered Pay to Win. Paying money to unlock more mod slots and bonus unlocks for a weapon or frame is paying to gain an advantage. Ignoring this is stupid. Speeding up crafting is not pay to win, you're paying to get something now that you've earned and it's the same frame that everyone else can find/craft/buy. I'm not changing the subject, Pay to win, you pay money to win what? the game? No, you can win the game, quite easily even, without paying anything. But I can't stress this enough, because it pretty much nullifies the entire pay to win argument : this game is not competitive, there's no competition, you play this game for your own enjoyment and that's it. In the end, the best gear in the game can only be gotten through grinding, and crafting, so if you actually want to look the best and have the best gear, well you can do that without paying any money what so ever. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aggh Posted January 6, 2013 Share Posted January 6, 2013 (edited) Honestly, if people have a problem with this game, they're going to have a tough time, finding any game legally that'll provide the same fun, for less money. In fact, I dare you to provide me with even 1 example, of a game offering more content than this for free. Inbefore: some obscure mmorpg. Blacklight retribution, tribes ascend, Tf2, Planetside 2 and any number of other f2p games. I have literally every weapon,weapon part, gear item, and piece of armor in blacklight permed and have over 1300 hours clocked into the game ; I've spent a grand total of $60 on the game (it would cost a hell of a lot more than that to perm that stuff with cash). It has a hell of a lot more content than this game does and all of it is available for free. I'm not changing the subject, Pay to win, you pay money to win what? the game? No, you can win the game, quite easily even, without paying anything. But I can't stress this enough, because it pretty much nullifies the entire pay to win argument : this game is not competitive, there's no competition, you play this game for your own enjoyment and that's it. In the end, the best gear in the game can only be gotten through grinding, and crafting, so if you actually want to look the best and have the best gear, well you can do that without paying any money what so ever. Leaderboards and ladders. Any dungeon crawler should and does have them. And people care about them. Also, even the best gear in the game needs to be upgraded to pro to be really good. Edited January 6, 2013 by Aggh Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TenderSugar Posted January 6, 2013 Share Posted January 6, 2013 Biggest problem is how easily powerful you can get with money, compared to slow and grindy it is if you don't. I think that's the point of the OP, and I agree with him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MJ12 Posted January 6, 2013 Share Posted January 6, 2013 Biggest problem is how easily powerful you can get with money, compared to slow and grindy it is if you don't. I think that's the point of the OP, and I agree with him. It doesn't take that long to get a Burstron, Latron, Strun, or Braton, and at that point you've got a longarm that is going to last you for dozens of hours at least, more if you don't want to upgrade to the Gorgon (dozens of hours, mind you, that you can only slightly accelerate via cash). Similarly, two of the frames that come up all the time when people go "X is OP", Excalibur and Volt, are starter frames. The real power comes from mods (especially on longarms, wherein multishot can effectively increase your DPS by 100% or more) which are entirely randomly found and scale to your level no matter what mission you're in. I guess the Cronus is better or equal in all respects to the standard Skana, but 12 hours isn't exactly that long of a wait because you can just leave it and come back the next day. The OP's "point" is kind of disingenuous (he would have a point if he was talking Pro, but crafting? No way). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scyfle Posted January 6, 2013 Share Posted January 6, 2013 (edited) I disagree with OP. The end result is the same. There is no real advantage for play users when it comes to crafting speed. Edited January 6, 2013 by Scyfle Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Master_Shadow Posted January 6, 2013 Share Posted January 6, 2013 I'm not changing the subject, Pay to win, you pay money to win what? the game? No, you can win the game, quite easily even, without paying anything. You're taking the phrase too literally and you know it. Pay to Win is a phrase to describe a model where you can purchase with real money an advantage over the player next to you. Whether that advantage is PvP or PvE does not matter. The only thing that's important and that dictates P2W is if a non paying customer can not achieve the same end results in a reasonable amount of time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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