Frost Revisited 3/3/2014

[Maou]

Take out timer.

 

Make Frost`s first ability heal the globe?

[sector24]

The only way I can see to make snow globe scale with enemy levels is to change the HP/damage model.  Instead of what we have now, I would suggest that every snow globe be able to support a certain number of "hits".  The actual amount of damage that the rocket/laser/bullet would do to the globe is irrelevant, just the number of times that the globe is struck.  This would have a couple of interesting consequences:

 

1) Scalability - A level 1 trooper does the same damage to the globe as a level 35 trooper, but the globe "will" fall eventually.

2) Strategy - It would be important to target enemies with shotguns and rapid fire weapons over snipers and bombards due to the number of hits the globe would take.  This creates a situation where you could make tactical decisions in the game that affect your team's success.

3) Power Strength mods would still affect the globe, it would simply grant more hits before it dissipates.

 

If this has already been suggested before, my apologies.  I didn't see it anywhere so I thought I'd throw it out there.

[CY13ERPUNK]

having frost's armor apply to the globe is a great idea

not im not sure if the duration removal is a good idea (becuz of the possibility of having 9999 globes out at once)

honestly I would like snow globe to NOT block ranged attacks, but to SLOW all projectiles moving through it and reduce dmg taken by friendlies inside, like 20/40/60/80% dmg resistance unmoddable (or 10/20/30/40% but let frame power enhance it)

by removing the globe's '1-way wall' effect it no longer blocks the battlefield from friendlies and works in all cases and against all factions (the 1-way wall effect is gimmicky anyways)

my suggestions remove the "problem" with having multiple globes all over the battlefield as well, becuz if u remove the '1-way wall' effect then you dont screw over yer allies, and the dmg reduction makes the globe non-useless vs infested

[TonyFoot]

Agree with previous posters: # of globes placed is a concern because of trolling.

 

I would either limit the globes to no more than 3 or 4, and then allow frosts to kill their own globes from the out side,

 

OR

 

allow players to shoot through globes from any position inside or out. DE, If you decide to go with this option, please tone down the visual effects of the globe so that I can actually see something when frosty clogs the damn hallway with ice XD.

 

Edit: As a variance of the first option, DE could instead make the globe limit itself to just one bubble, but make it a toggle power (same button, pick up <-> put down), with a refund effect to add more portability (the actual effectiveness of said refund I leave to DE).

 

Otherwise, Great job with the adjustment decisions, DE! Nice call!

Edited March 4, 2014 by TonyFoot

[RadiantProxy]

A lot of good suggestions here already, I like most of them. 
 

DE, would you do us a small favor (just a favor!) of increasing the visibility inside the show globe? Maybe even removing those blobs of colored energy flying inside the globe? I, personally, am totally irritated by them and cannot shoot properly.

[HollowFrame]

Give Frost an idea of how much hp the Globe has. Like a meter for all the players to see (or maybe exclusively for Frost to see).

Buff the Globe hp a little bit more.

I agree on removing the duration.

A % chance for the Globe to ignore some damage. Like maybe 1-3 bullets ignored every 10 bullets it takes.

[Phoenix86]

Removing timer will be dangerous when a "bad globe" is placed upon enemies, effectively blocking all friendly fire in that zone....

 

My suggestion is always to make it percentage based:

 

Rank 0-1-2-3, dmg absorbed: 40-50-60-70%, increased by focus/blind rage and Hard Capped at 90%

[TyrantDrag]

If you remove the Duration timer from Frost Globe it will invite trolling and spam. Frost Globe can be beneficial if you want to defend something but if someone wants to annoy people a Frost can basically prevent gunplay in spamming globes everywhere.

 

If you remove the timer then make it so teammates bullets can penetrate(ignore) the globe.. but this still leaves the visibility issue.

 

Applying Armor value to the Globe would offer nice synergies with other Frames (Valkyr Battle Cry) and would give Armor on Frost some use.. but i doubt that it will be enough to make the Globe more viable for endgame without having to spam it over an over to not break instantly against a horde of lvl 50+ enemies.

To eliminate trolls, what if frost only gets one snow globe out at a time? Like Rhino skin, he can't recast until the first is depleted or when he does recast, the previous one is destroyed. Even better, for every rank on your snow globe, it makes you able to cast an additional snow globe. That means the max number of snow globes at a time would be 4 from one frost. 

[paplo]

If an enemy is too much time inside the globe they will get frozen

(sorry for the bad english)

[autarchist]

Good dev ideas & discussion!

 

* I fully agree that if duration goes away, as it prob. should there will need to be a cap on active snowglobes or they will get spammed to annoyance.

 

* Armor boosting globe is a nice way to make that stat appealing & broaden why you'd want Armor increased when not Valkyr

 

* Suggest: What if the 'globe health increased based on the # of players standing under it? So if you're holding out in a tough wave, all in Camp Frosty, its strong, but if its just Frost alone, or there are multiples cluttering map,  its less so?

 

My concern is that the directive for why 'globe was changed (I presumed)  was to take Frost away from being a one-trick pony, but also I thought, to keep from Frost setting up igloo camp at the defense point and sitting there pushing 4 while everyone else gets to move around and do stuff (like stray from the objective and spawn camp ;) ...but that freedom is good, in theory!)

 

Other stuff: 

* I think Ice Wave is great fun now & so is Blizzard! Success on not being one-trick pony!

 

* Freeze is not terribly exciting & a little pin-point seeming, but super-effective on bosses,  like Jackal, for early play at least.

[buriburi]

I think the dev's and a big part of the community doesn't understand the  problem: 

 

Enemies are scaling! That means at a certain point the enemy will simply one shot the globe. That makes high level defense much harder (i mean the dev's could've seen it by looking at the weekly leaderboard ~50 waves). Letting the enemy hit the pod not even once?! 

 

My suggestions would be: 

 

globe is scaling (would be fair for both low level and high level)

 

or 

 

globe takes a certain amount of damage and "cracks" you have 15sec to recast a globe or whatever. 

[Jamescell]

Give him new abilities for his 1, 2, and 4. 

[LazerusKI]

yeah, i think most things were said.

 

in his current state frost is more a "focus user" instead of the old "duration user".

with the latest change in his snowglobe (health) it would be jsut fair to remove the duration timer from it. give it just one kill-condition instead of two.

 

frosts armor is not that high compared to valkyr (i think 40% mitigation) so it would give him some more strength in his snowglobe, but it wouldnt be OP if you think about how many enemies shoot at it.

 

 

Removing the duration timer would be a big help but make it extremely easy for griefers to use the globes to block their allies' shots.

 

What about if they automatically melted if the Frost went too far away from the globe's location? Or just make them centred on the Frost and move around with their owner the way Leader globes do. I'd prefer it if they intersected with the floor, though, since that would give us more distance in the shield at the base.

please dont use the "griefer" argument, thats jsut stupid.

if someone wnats to troll you, he uses something different than frost...bounceban for example.

Edited March 3, 2014 by LazerusKI

[DiddlyMcGee]

DE you should remove the timer and replace it with a health bar for snow globe

[-Mr.Meeseeks-]

Having it not be affected by duration wouldn't help when it's being taken down in a matter of seconds by high level enemies.

 

The armor idea... Maybe. Depends on just how much it helps. Though by judging from Frost armor value, it doesn't help much against high level enemies at all.

 

Both of these ideas would help a lot for low level / medium level enemies, but when it comes to people trying to do T2/T3 defence or survival, It will be mostly useless after 15/20 waves or 20/25 minutes.

[Lord.Finster]

Here is my take on a new Snowglobe:

 

1)Only one Globe can be cast at a time.

2)Globe is portable and will move around with Frost.

3)Like Iron Skin it has unlimited duration.

4)Frost's armour rating applies to snowglobe hp. Alternatively, shield regenerating mods heal snowglobe over time.

5)Inside snowglobe enemy shields are halved and fire based weapons of enemies deal only half damage.

 

This should make the skill a swiss army knife. It keeps the map clean. It keeps Frost mobile but also forces him to make tactical choices. He needs to be there, where it is most important. It's extremely desirable for a melee oriented use as it is a portable short range crowd control tool. If the team really wants to profit from the skill it needs to stick around Frost, which promotes teamplay.

 

Note that this will not solve the 'problem' of rushers or door heroes. Frost, by his very nature will keep suffering from those type of players.

Also, duration mods should have an effect how long enemies are slowed down by Frost's abilities. This should also apply to enemies that are affected by Snowglobe (after they leave it ofc.).

[The_Four_Kings]

I think the dev are taking good steps! I agree with both terms but I'd like to know if the health would still be changed by power strenght mods, and if the armour could be changed by mods.

[JackBeloved]

I think the dev's and a big part of the community doesn't understand the  problem: 

 

Enemies are scaling!

 

^ So why not make the pod's health/shields scale?

 

 

Can we make snowglobe seem a bit more, I dunno, formidable? I mean, it's named after an innocuous trinket girls buy as souvenirs, and it looks like a big bubble. I wish I looked more icy, with jagged shards and points sticking off of it. The more armor rating, the more spiky.

 

And I don't know if this has been discussed yet or not (I'd imagine so, but there's too much to read through it all), but why not change snowglobe into something more like an Ice Wall? Sort of like the ice version of Ember's Fireblast? A radial wall of giant jagged shards of ice, but without a roof. There aren't too many places where the top of the globe is necessary, and the few instances where it is (like higher waves of tower defense where the bad guys live long enough to camp out on that upper terrace) would make for a very fun, challenging dynamic.

 

Then, you could give segments of the wall HP, and as these sections die, gaps appear in the wall. That sounds like fun.

 

Overall, I'm not too keen on the timer idea. I think HP makes a lot more sense. And I don't really see what the fuss is about scaling- the skill levels up as mods level up, and it makes sense that at some point there is a cap- especially if the thing is made out of ice. I mean, it's ice, people. Ice. It's not invulnerable. It's a temporary barrier.

 

Then, as enemies keep getting harder, and Tenno have to start thinking smarter and more strategically. Honestly, having a "defends against everything" skill is ridiculous and encourages player to not develop actual skill and tactics.

 

Or, if you want to keep the "snowglobe to win" element in there, make the globe's HP scale with enemy HP/armor.

Edited March 3, 2014 by JackBeloved

[Orcot]

If SG applies armor and the timer is removed then SG should become a personal aura similar to what Leader enemies have.

 

A Snow Globe that travels with Frost, it would help balance out the limitless timer on it, if there is no timer on SG it could cause a lot of problems for players with low NATs.  Also it would give Frost more in terms of playstyle, it would make him a mobile shield tank for the team and would get rid of the babysitter playstyle we have for defense missions.

[ExplosiveFuel]

Just throwing a bit of the math out there. With a max ranked steel fiber along with Frosts helmet that increases armor. You can boost his armor up 135%. This gives him 446.5 armor. Which will give you roughly 60% damage reduction. Or it'll only take 40% of the damage delt. This can be applied as extending the hp of the snow globe.

 

Base snowglobe at max rank has 3500 Hp. Which will boost it to 5600. I probably did it wrong but I multiplied the 3500 by 1.6 which should be 60% more hp.

 

With blind range, and focus along with this much armor. The hp fill fall between 12000-13000 effective hp. If we're turning the armor into straight numbers people can see.

 

Just food for thought for people to see. As this is with max steel fiber on frost, max blind rage and focus. While people are complaining about trolls throwing snowglobe up everywhere. As a tatical point. Stacking these would be most effective. So making a limit of 3-4 I feel is reasonable and make it still viable in end game. But then if it's too strong. People will complain about how you press 3 and sit there still. Which is the whole polint of the change in the first place.

 

If it's viable in in game people will say its boring because you just sit there and hit 3. Make it "balanced" by giving it HP and it'll no longer be viable for end game and thus people will argue frost is useless. In my opinion any change made to frost is a lose-lose situation and you'll have people argueing both sides about snowglobe.

[buriburi]

Having it not be affected by duration wouldn't help when it's being taken down in a matter of seconds by high level enemies.

 

The armor idea... Maybe. Depends on just how much it helps. Though by judging from Frost armor value, it doesn't help much against high level enemies at all.

 

Both of these ideas would help a lot for low level / medium level enemies, but when it comes to people trying to do T2/T3 defence or survival, It will be mostly useless after 15/20 waves or 20/25 minutes.

 

this exactly. 

 

DE has to make a solution for all kind of enemy levels. Not only for the most happines in forums.

[[DE]Momaw]

Right, well, my feedback.

 

 

1.) Frost is the slowest frame in the game. The slowest. Period. Rhino has his Vanguard helmet that pushes him from being in the slowest to one of the fastest, and costs basically nothing to use. Frost, on the other hand, is an exercise in frustration. DE has designed a coop game where the majority of players simply do not give a rat's backside about their team mates. There's no incentive to stay together or work together, it's every man for himself, and that means that if you're not able to keep up then you don't play. You just run behind everybody else through nearly empty levels picking off stragglers and looting the bodies. You can equip Rush, aye, but why should this frame be forced to spend one of its precious mod slots to gain basic functionality? Nobody else has to.  Frost was welcome at any Defense party despite his slowness because he was an invaluable contributor and he didn't need to go anywhere. That's not the case anymore. If you're trying to make him a more "all around" versatile frame, he needs to be faster.

 

 

2.) Freeze is still pointless.  It's occasionally a novelty for solo play, but otherwise a waste of energy. This ability should leave a lingering speed debuff on affected enemies even if they get knocked out of the paralysis state, and gain automatic targeting so that it instantly hits the closest enemy to the crosshair when triggered.

 

 

3.) Ice Wave is still terrible. It's an AOE ability that is completely reliant on level geometry to funnel enemies into the correct formation for it to work.   This ability should become a 45 degree cone, and push enemies away in addition to chilling them. Bonus points if it leaves a field of jagged ice spikes that hurts enemies who walk across them (should reduce initial damage if that be the case).

 

 

4.) Snow Globe....    Right, the crux of the matter for most people. The reason people loved this was because it just worked, against any level of enemy and any quantity of enemy. Giving it hitpoints, be they reinforced by armor or not (lol), removes that feature. If you take into the kind of Defense scenarios where it used to be invaluable, it will get battered down in seconds without the support of crowd control frames.... who don't need YOUR support to do their jobs, which means Frost is irrelevant for that purpose.

 

Personally I'm inclined to vote for radical overhaul on Snow Globe;

* make it move with the player.

* make it add stacks of slow to enemies each second they are inside. Enemies that reach enough stacks of chilling slowness will freeze completely as per the ability Freeze.

* does not block projectiles either incoming or outgoing;  instead, gives allies inside the globe a large damage resistance bonus.

 

5.) Avalanche works better than it did. No particular complaints about this.

[buriburi]

^ So why not make the pod's health/shields scale?

 

i can't remember the exact level (should be around L2000-3000); enemies hit for 20k-50k per shot.

 

how much health/shields you wanna give the pod? this game doesnt show numbers >10million.

[Zarlockk]

Removal of Duration is great if you want it to keep so bad in terms of HP based as we will be able to make Fleeting+Streamline+Blindrage+focus and not worry about duration and HP(of sort)

Armor as we all know is not a great stat in this game but Snow Globe will need it. It will need to be big number like 1000 or higher(preferably bigger as i give this value looking at Valkyr vs lvl30 Grineer) and be affected by something like power. This is step forward but HP of Globe must be bigger than current also if you would give it a formula that makes it scale depending on enemy level it would make it scale in some extent. But it is a step forward. Thanks for not forgetting him.

Also a little favour to ask DE, could you give us a formula of how armor works?

Edited March 3, 2014 by Zarlockk

[EdBazokatone]

Snowglobe.

*Remove timer

*Add armor value

 

*Centered on him with only one use at a time, just like leaders. This will disable the trolling/annoying part that many are afraid of. Will encourage team play as everyone would want a Frost by their side.

 

Freeze.

*Heals the globe for the same damage it does. If the target is still alive (when it gets frozen) AND Snow Globe is active, a link is created between the target and Frost (much like trinity's link). As long as the target remains frozen the link drains the ice from the target to heal the snow globe over time (like rejuvenation aura or Oberon's renewal).