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[DE]Rebecca

Frost Revisited 3/3/2014

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Make Freeze deal AoE CC on impact (damage unnecessary) and Ice Wave deal knockback. The former will reduce Snow Globe's damage intake, while the latter makes sure not to be outdone by the former and can evict enemies from the sphere.

Concerning Snow Globe itself: Remove the timer, limit the number of globes available at once, allow the slow to scale with the full radius.

 

Most importantly:

make cold damage regenerate globe health

... And its derivatives!

There are only so many people who use just Cold damage since the change to its slow effect (reducing its reliability by making it a proc), especially when Viral/Magnet's damage and procs are so much more appealing. (It's a thought that should be applied to Accelerant, too.)

And when we say "cold damage", we mean outgoing attacks as well as incoming. Anything hitting or passing through.

Edited by Archwizard

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Remove duration

Limit number of globes that can be cast

Give it armour and way more HP.

The End

 

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1. If Snowglobes have no duration, we probably will need to limit the amount of globes you can have at a given time. 1 per rank would limit it to a maximum of 4, which may be enough for tactical purposes and still not be too much for visibility / griefing issues.

2. Following the first point, Snowglobe should probably allow allies to fire through it, like Stalker already does (and I believe friendly units of a Freeze Leader can fire through the shield as well?).

3. Make the slowing area as big as the actual globe

 

4. Frost's 1st ability is still more-or-less worthless to bring along. Make it more interesting.

- AoE freeze/slow effect at impact location, while still doing damage on direct hits.

- The ability to restore a Snowglobe's HP by firing this skill at the globe? (Healing for twice as much as its damage value)

Edited by ScorpDK

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Here are my thoughts on Frost powers.

 

Freeze:

It should explode on impact. freezing anything in a 2 (3 at most) meter radius. This because it has travel time and enemies tend to move and/or people can use it to snipe, so you have a slightly chance in case you miss or this can be a help to freeze multiple enemies if they're close enough.

 

Ice Wave:

I always liked it before the changes and I love it now.

 

Snow Globe:

Increase the globe's health. As it was said before, if you give the Globe armour, you're basically just giving it more health so why not just buff the actual value of health. Please do remove timer, and make a one at a time ability, just as Loki's decoy, if you cast another, the first one disolves. Another player already posted the concern about how would the globe interact on Infested, making the globes disolve on another use would make the utility of slowing down still viable and we do not end with a map full of globes. Another suggestion could be making the globe receive ally fire, this could also work in sinergy the aswell previously mencioned "If the globe breaks (not disolves from another cast), it deals damage to all the enemies inside" the damage doesn't need to be high, a 150 to 200 ice damage could be the value at max rank, so at low level areas yes, it could kill everything inside, but you'd first need to leave them get inside and at high levels it doesn't make a huge difference but we all now a litle help is always welcome.

 

Avalanche:

On this one I have just one comment, please DE, make freeze caused by the use of overextended a feature. It serves as a great CC. It could work both ways, deal the damage first then freeze the enemies (as Rhino Stomp works) or freeze them then damage them after ~5 seconds.

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Essentially these changes alter the longevity and timing of your globe. They are welcome but ...


You need to do something that will take the community by surprise.

 

-Every enemy that dies within snow globe, shatters into ice fragments...  

 

-These ice fragments swirl around the globe and settle on the outside thickening the wall.

- Snowglobe health pool is regenerated by the enemies effective health pool.

THIS SCALES WITH ENEMIES.
 

(Effective health pool takes into account armor rating)

 

  • Upvote 2

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make cold damage regenerate globe health

I like this idea a lot. Since friendly shots impact with the outside of the globe, it could create interesting tactic situations with Frost having to leave the safety of his globe in order to maintain/repair it, while teammates provide covering fire from within. I've always enjoyed abilities with interesting team dynamics like that, such as everybody wailing on Nyx to get the maximum effect out of her Absorb.

As a means of balancing this so that people can't just slap cold on their Soma and have an invincible globe, perhaps repairs should only happen when a cold proc happens. This for example would make Soma a poor choice for globe repairs as it's likely to proc impact/puncture/slash instead of cold, while weapons like the freeze ray mentioned in a recent livestream would make a good and more importantly logical and intuitive choice for the job.

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Both. Make the Snowglobe scale to armour AND remove the timer. But if I have to choose only one - remove the timer. Whis way we can stack multiple layers of Snowglobe using Team Energy Restores. But don't even think about limiting this to 3 Snowglobes possible to cast at once...

Edited by Angius

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Did you want a TL;DR? Nope. If you are really concerned about Frost, you'd take the time to read my post. Otherwise, don't bother responding, because I don't need the input of a lazy player.

 

Identify The Issue

DE thinks Frost players felt "useless and only invited for the sake of Globing". DE wants to "promote activity for Frost players" and not simply "Globing the entire half hour for the mission."

 

What Has Been Done to Solve This?

A Health buffer has been added as an additional method for the Globe breaking. Due to enemies' constant damage outputs, this requires more casting, and therefore "more activity".

 

Why Doesn't This Work?

This only serves to make the Globe easier to break, and thus, makes the Frost's job harder. He now has to stay in the Globe and cast every ten seconds, or resort to double-casting, which gives the same result anyway. He's glued to the pod, constantly casting and keeping an eye on the Globe. This is not activity. He is merely doing the same thing he has always been doing, only in greater frequencies.

 

What Are We Going to Do Now?

DE plans to remove the duration timer. While this certainly helps, we are still left with a static number. A number that serves well on up to mid-level gameplay, but is shrugged off beyond that. Our mods and builds can only go so high before the enemies outpace us.

 

DE also plans to apply Frost's armor rating to the Globe. This will only add an effective health to the Globe (if Frost has 50% damage mitigation, the Globe has double HP, for example), and is no different than buffing the Globe's base health.

 

Okay, Enough of That. What is The Root Problem With Our Current Globe?

There is no scaling. Our Globe, and the Globe DE is suggesting, is a failure. This is because both mechanics are flat. Static. Stagnant. The Globe has a base health already determined the moment you get Frost, and stays at that number forever. Yeah, you can mod it, but your final number is still static.

 

Meanwhile, the enemies you face throughout the solar system are increasing in level. Bigger, stronger, more power. You? The same. Mods only go to a maximum amount, and after that, you're done. You've reached your limit of power, while the enemy continues to grow in power.

 

Adding numbers only delays the inevitable. Add one hundred thousand health to the Globe, and it's too powerful. Take away a thousand health from the Globe, and it's too weak. Why?

 

Again, lack of scaling. For those uninformed, scaling = being able to match the enemy's strength, regardless of scenario. This is the one reason why abilities like Radial Disarm and Bastille continue to thrive. They care not for the enemy's level. Level Five, to Level Five Hundred. All are equal under the might of scaling abilities. A Snow Globe on Pluto is no stronger than one on Mercury. That's what the old Snow Globe was like.

 

This is what the new Snow Globe needs.

 

What Can DE Change To Fix The Root Cause?

Scaling. Make it so that weaker enemies aren't laughed at, but stronger enemies don't obliterate. That, is how you design a perfect power. Flat values do not achieve this.

 

A great many ideas have been put forth, both by myself, and the community. My personal suggestion is as follows:

 

• Snow Globe has no health. It is unbreakable by damage alone, and only worn out by time.

 

Snow Globe cannot be shot through; from both the inside, and the outside. This ensures the skill stays as a Defensive skill, to be used only in emergencies, such as when a player needs to revive a teammate.

 

If used to cover a cryopod, this new Globe discourages "camping", as teams will no longer sit in their comfortable bubbles and shoot away. They must risk stepping outside their safe zone to continue the battle, and this in turn promotes activity as camping is no longer possible. It's a double-edged sword that requires input of teamwork and strategy to be used to the fullest extent.

 

• A limit of a single Snow Globe can be placed on the field at any instance. Casting of an additional Globe will cause the previous to dissipate, acting much like Loki's Decoy.

 

• For those concerned with the risk of trolling by using huge Globes to hassle the team, there are multiple ways we can address this.

 

     - A.) We can give Tenno "Ice Armor" once they leave the Globe. This Armor lasts only X seconds (perhaps 5 or 6 seconds*** at max rank to prevent abuse), and is not moddable by Duration mods. This Armor provides all the neat benefits of Snow Globe's protections, and can be replenished by stepping back inside the Globe. You can now do damage, and get the perks of protection. All you have to do is be active. Hooray, promotion of activity.

***Numbers subject to change!

 

If option A does not appeal, there is option B:

 

     - B.) My initial suggestion was to prevent shooting from inside the Globe. If trolling is an issue, the Globe can start off with 100% (number subject to change) damage output reduction when cast, and as the Globe ticks down its duration, this damage output reduction is also reduced. So once the Globe is halfway down to disappearing, the damage output reduction is likewise halved. When the Globe is near destruction, the damage output reduction is practically non-existent.

 

~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~

 

 

 

1) Have the Armor value apply to health of the Snow Globe
2) Remove Duration timer from Snow Globe
 

As your sessions with Frost go on, please weigh in this week on dev's current considerations as well as your own thoughts.

 

I have considered the development team's suggestions while writing my post, and my response: These "fixes" are mere band-aids and do nothing to solve the issue at hand. The Globe is not fixed, and will not be fixed until someone gets the job done right.

 

"The problem here is not the just problem at hand; it's how you deal with it."

Edited by Psychosist
  • Upvote 18

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I would say both changes would be acceptable but in order to keep Frost's main function as a "defender" intact, any Tenno in the Globe should gain a temporary "ice armor" similar to Rhino's Iron Skin but obviously a bit weaker. After a Tenno enters the globe, they would gain the "ice armor" however, they can only have the armor once per Snow Globe, I think the amount of health for the should depend on armor as well. These changes would make Frost more fair and more interesting to play as, while retaining his title of "defender".

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Both of those suggestions sound great. Put 'em in. It's needed; Snow Globe is too frail as is even w/ Blind Rage+Intensity+Squall. 

 

For those who say the durability of Snow Globe is fine have not played a nightmare defense lately. 

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armor modifying the globe hp would be great! Also, the timer getting removed. :3 But as some have said above, you probably have to limit the instances.

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Okay, Enough of That. What is The Root Problem With Our Current Globe?

There is no scaling. Our Globe, and the Globe DE is suggesting, is a failure. This is because both mechanics are flat. Static. Stagnant. The Globe has a base health already determined the moment you get Frost, and stays at that number forever. Yeah, you can mod it, but your final number is still static.

 

Meanwhile, the enemies you face throughout the solar system are increasing in level. Bigger, stronger, more power. You? The same. Mods only go to a maximum amount, and after that, you're done. You've reached your limit of power, while the enemy continues to grow in power.

 

Adding numbers only delays the inevitable. Add one hundred thousand health to the Globe, and it's too powerful. Take away a thousand health from the Globe, and it's too weak. Why?

 

Again, lack of scaling. For those uninformed, scaling = being able to match the enemy's strength, regardless of scenario. This is the one reason why abilities like Radial Disarm and Bastille continue to thrive. They care not for the enemy's level. Level Five, to Level Five Hundred. All are equal under the might of scaling abilities. A Snow Globe on Pluto is no stronger than one on Mercury. That's what the old Snow Globe was like.

 

This is what the new Snow Globe needs.

 

What Can DE Change To Fix The Root Cause?

Scaling. Make it so that weaker enemies aren't laughed at, but stronger enemies don't obliterate. That, is how you design a perfect power. Flat values do not achieve this.

 

I agree with this

 

It's not just Snow Globe, many frame abilities become useless at high level tier enemies

 

Try Ash's Shuriken/Blade Storm, as well as many of frame 1st ability powers on lv75's+, its ineffective to even bother using

  • Upvote 4

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I think that Snow Globe using Frost's armor rating would be great. For the timer removal, I think it would only work if you limited the number of persistant globes to be one per player. Having something like snow globe have an infinite duration is fine, so long as there is only one. I don't want my bullets being blocked by spammed globes.

 

-tdkbackkick

  • Upvote 1

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i am liking the idea of it lasting as long as it health does and all that, and many had nice ideas here. i think 1-4 max globes is a good idea (who really needs more then that?) plus i love the idea of freeze healing it. i think it should go further, as in all ice/cold attacks heals it if damaged. as in any ice/cold base attacks damage is turned 100% into heals to the globe. but this way all of frost's powers have dual use cause freeze is a bit bleh right now, i don't even use it myself anymore. same with the second power too, neither are very useful to take up the slot on the frame at this time in my own opinion.

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Can we get some numbers on what snow globes health would be if we applied a fully fusioned armour mod?

If the snow globe is still too weak we may need to think of scaling after the enemy's dmg (constant fire enemies such as the gunner and fusion moa will have to be considered) surpasses your globe's health.

 

Removing duration would be great but the number of times we can cast the globe would have to be limited or have a button to destroy/cancel a globe.

Edited by Postal_pat

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My idea for Snowglobe is to remove it's HP, and do the following:

- Make it so that if Frost leaves the globe, it pops (idea from another user whose name I can't recall currently)
- Rank 1, 20 seconds duration (hard cap on duration, only level can increase), 0.5 Energy drain. Rank 2, 25 seconds duration, 1 Energy drain. Rank 3, 30 seconds duration, 1.5 Energy drain.
- SG goes down when duration is up, or when Frost runs out of Energy.

Explanation:

Putting it back to its original no HP removes the scaling problem and allows those who wish to able to have a good defence and go to level 500 the ability to. Giving the "pop if Frost leaves" means that the Frost player must stay to his Globe if in a Defence mission, so if one of his team goes down he must decide "do I protect the objective or do I risk it to save an ally". A good player (let alone Frost) must learn to prioritize.

The Energy drain means that they would have to be aware of their energy, perhaps be more conservative with their bubbles (or lower drain through mods via cost, energy aura etc). This can lead to people going to be either offensive or defensive builds, make them think about their builds and what they want to do. The scaling of the slow, drain and duration with the level means that if they wish to make their SG last longer, they must increase the skill itself, thereby increasing the drain, keeping in tow (in my opinion) balance, you trade a longer Globe for more drain. I feel that this trade-off would keep people who dislike SG happy, because it's no longer an "afkiwin" button. Frost players must actively watch their energy and be aware of their surroundings, pay attention to what enemy types are running in, know where their team-mates are.

Enemy AI:

I saw in one of the topics, a user said something along the lines of "why don't you provide the code for the AI to run into the SG when it goes up?". I am a developer myself, so here is an example of what I would do and why:

CASE WHEN SG_Active
THEN Enemy_Action = 'Run just inside the perimeter'
ELSE 'Fire at Tenno'
END

Couple the above with code that would make the enemy actively target Frost as a priority when SG is up, it would mean the enemy runs into closer range to fire at you, and target Frost to try to take him down. This would pressure the team into making sure Frost stays alive to protect the objective (or if just a general cover-fire SG, the enemy would zerg on you and pressure you), Frost to keep himself alive inside his bubble (removing the whole "SG and afk" issue), and the enemy to not just pewzerk an immortal globe. Given that there are already several types of enemy that either run in or bypass the defence of SG, this would ensure people work together and not just rely on one frame to defend them all.

  • Upvote 1

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As an avid Frost Prime player, I will say if you kill the timer, and only allow 1 globe out at a time, if frost recasts snow globe it shatters the current globe causing slowing and cold damage

Adding armor to the snow globe would be nice also..

On a side note, I would like to get ride of the swooshing visual effects and sound effects inside the snow globe, and instead add a falling snow effect, your in a freaking "Snow Globe" make it seem like that, get rid of the snow storm effects.. maybe make the inside of the globe quieter than the outside gun fire.. 

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Tenno,

 

Frost and his recent changes are still being reviewed by dev, and we'd like to start up another 'mega' post for discussion based on dev's current thoughts.

 

Dev has expressed the following considerations in the continued balancing of his skills, particularly Snow Globe:

 

1) Have the Armor value apply to health of the Snow Globe

2) Remove Duration timer from Snow Globe

 

As your sessions with Frost go on, please weigh in this week on dev's current considerations as well as your own thoughts.

 

Please keep the discussion and conversation in line with our best posting practices and rules - constructive posts are best posts.

 

Thank you!

As much as adding numbers to snowglobe is nice, you aren't addressing the bigger issue.

Frost was the king of defence, you took away his defensive role and gave him more damage. What he needs is more crowd control in place of that.

1. Make freeze an AoE conal freeze.

2. Give snowglobe some utility on breaking, maybe a slow or a freeze. With a damage cap, IT WILL BREAK, be nice if it had some CC cushion to pop another up

4. You know that 5 second freeze you get with overextended on avalanche? Make that a feature, one with a duration that we can mod into.

Frost was never a damage frame, please, don't let him remain one.

  • Upvote 4

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Did you want a TL;DR? Nope. If you are really concerned about Frost, you'd take the time to read my post. Otherwise, don't bother responding, because I don't need the input of a lazy player.

 

Identify The Issue

DE thinks Frost players felt "useless and only invited for the sake of Globing". DE wants to "promote activity for Frost players" and not simply "Globing the entire half hour for the mission."

 

What Has Been Done to Solve This?

A Health buffer has been added as an additional method for the Globe breaking. Due to enemies' constant damage outputs, this requires more casting, and therefore "more activity".

 

Why Doesn't This Work?

This only serves to make the Globe easier to break, and thus, makes the Frost's job harder. He now has to stay in the Globe and cast every ten seconds, or resort to double-casting, which gives the same result anyway. He's glued to the pod, constantly casting and keeping an eye on the Globe. This is not activity. He is merely doing the same thing he has always been doing, only in greater frequencies.

 

What Are We Going to Do Now?

DE plans to remove the duration timer. While this certainly helps, we are still left with a static number. A number that serves well on up to mid-level gameplay, but is shrugged off beyond that. Our mods and builds can only go so high before the enemies outpace us.

 

DE also plans to apply Frost's armor rating to the Globe. This will only add an effective health to the Globe (if Frost has 50% damage mitigation, the Globe has double HP, for example), and is no different than buffing the Globe's base health.

 

Okay, Enough of That. What is The Root Problem With Our Current Globe?

There is no scaling. Our Globe, and the Globe DE is suggesting, is a failure. This is because both mechanics are flat. Static. Stagnant. The Globe has a base health already determined the moment you get Frost, and stays at that number forever. Yeah, you can mod it, but your final number is still static.

 

Meanwhile, the enemies you face throughout the solar system are increasing in level. Bigger, stronger, more power. You? The same. Mods only go to a maximum amount, and after that, you're done. You've reached your limit of power, while the enemy continues to grow in power.

 

Adding numbers only delays the inevitable. Add one hundred thousand health to the Globe, and it's too powerful. Take away a thousand health from the Globe, and it's too weak. Why?

 

Again, lack of scaling. For those uninformed, scaling = being able to match the enemy's strength, regardless of scenario. This is the one reason why abilities like Radial Disarm and Bastille continue to thrive. They care not for the enemy's level. Level Five, to Level Five Hundred. All are equal under the might of scaling abilities. A Snow Globe on Pluto is no stronger than one on Mercury. That's what the old Snow Globe was like.

 

This is what the new Snow Globe needs.

 

What Can DE Change To Fix The Root Cause?

Scaling. Make it so that weaker enemies aren't laughed at, but stronger enemies don't obliterate. That, is how you design a perfect power. Flat values do not achieve this.

 

A great many ideas have been put forth, both by myself, and the community. My personal suggestion is as follows:

 

• Snow Globe has no health. It is unbreakable by damage alone, and only worn out by time.

 

Snow Globe cannot be shot through; from both the inside, and the outside. This ensures the skill stays as a Defensive skill, to be used only in emergencies, such as when a player needs to revive a teammate.

 

If used to cover a cryopod, this new Globe discourages "camping", as teams will no longer sit in their comfortable bubbles and shoot away. They must risk stepping outside their safe zone to continue the battle, and this in turn promotes activity as camping is no longer possible. It's a double-edged sword that requires input of teamwork and strategy to be used to the fullest extent.

 

• A limit of a single Snow Globe can be placed on the field at any instance. Casting of an additional Globe will cause the previous to dissipate, acting much like Loki's Decoy.

 

• For those concerned with the risk of trolling by using huge Globes to hassle the team, there are multiple ways we can address this.

 

     - A.) We can give Tenno "Ice Armor" once they leave the Globe. This Armor lasts only X seconds, and is not moddable by Duration mods. This Armor provides all the neat benefits of Snow Globe's protections, and can be replenished by stepping back inside the Globe. You can now do damage, and get the perks of protection. All you have to do is be active. Hooray, promotion of activity.

 

     - B.) My initial suggestion was to prevent shooting from inside the Globe. If trolling is an issue, the Globe can start off with 100% (number subject to change) damage output reduction when cast, and as the Globe ticks down its duration, this damage output reduction is also reduced. So once the Globe is halfway down to disappearing, the damage output reduction is likewise halved. When the Globe is near destruction, the damage reduction is practically non-existent.

 

~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~

 

 

 

 

I have considered the development team's suggestions while writing my post, and my response: These "fixes" are mere band-aids and do nothing to solve the issue at hand. The Globe is not fixed, and will not be fixed until someone gets the job done right.

 

"The problem here is not the just problem at hand; it's how you deal with it."

Can i just say...this WHOLE post makes sense. this person clearly put a lot of thought into what he wrote and i believe this is a PERFECT function for frosts snowglobe. PLEASE READ DE :D

  • Upvote 3

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Can i just say...this WHOLE post makes sense. this person clearly put a lot of thought into what he wrote and i believe this is a PERFECT function for frosts snowglobe. PLEASE READ DE :D

I normally hate it when people quote long blocks of text when they can just snip it, but I appreciate the advertisement c:

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If you do that, allow us to shoot through the globe. Because if there will be tons and tons of globes that have to expire before we can shoot that area, that wont help.

 

This. It's irritating enough when you're trying to aim through a field of snowglobes at an advancing heavy unit, only to have your shots blocked by three intersecting globes.

 

Alternatively, I'm a fan of Psychosist's suggestions. Poor scaling is an issue with nearly every frame, and giving moves more utility is a good first step in achieving overall 'balance.'

Edited by Noble_Cactus

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I normally hate it when people quote long blocks of text when they can just snip it, but I appreciate the advertisement c:

unfortunately i dont know how to snip :/. but i would really like that post to be read so i wouldnt have snipped it anyways xD

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This. It's irritating enough when you're trying to aim through a field of snowglobes at an advancing heavy unit, only to have your shots blocked by three intersecting globes.

It is easy enough for you to walk through the globe and kill the enemy. Mostly there is at least one person in the globe/globes that will kill all inside.

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Right now all that people do is spam more snowglobes to compensate for the finite health each one has. I'd suggest limiting the amount of snowglobes Frost can cause to 2 and remove its duration. Other than that, the nerf was quite welcome for any other CC frame because it made their abilities complement Snowglobe instead of just being useless unless Frost fell asleep pressing 3 every minute.

 

 

What he needs is more crowd control in place of that.

 

 

Remember when shooting through snowglobe would actually have the projectile carry ice damage to your enemy and slow him down? Yeah, that needs to happen again. 50% Proc of slowing enemies considerably.

Edited by AuroraSonicBoom

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