Frost Revisited 3/3/2014

[Wallace24]

ok, so I brought out my frost prime from retirement, and finally put a reactor in him (before the snowglobe nerf, he really didn't need it to do his job of setting up snowglobes. of course, I didn't have any other abilities on the build, but again, he did quite alright for T3 void defense). the new avalanche is pretty good, a lot better than the old version. I think damage 2.0 made frost's cold damage viable, which is great. ice wave is more fun than ever. those two skills are in a pretty good place. I didn't test out snow globe or freeze, actually, ice wave is way too fun. I assume freeze didn't undergo a change similar to fireball, and is still the inaccurate, single-target projectile that it used to be. if the projectile didn't have travel time (like smite or soul punch), the instant freeze would be a great utility. actually, I did run with that on my old snowlgobe build for a while, just to freeze heavy gunners if need be. but I think I removed it to mess around balancing narrow minded and oeverextended for the globe's radius

 

anyhow, armor applied to snow globe would be alright, it would increase the effective HP of the globe, but I don't think both the armor and base HP should then be affected by power strength mods. but like most skills, there's always a point of diminishing returns. regardless of what the base HP is, enemies will be able to one-shot it. just like at a certain point most abilities fail to kill enemies. then you're left with the utility of it. avalanche, stomp, miasma, reckoning, and soundquake are all just radial stun skills, some more effective than others, but the damage is negligible. m prime's explosions fail to kill multiple enemies at once, and suddenly your nova's standing in the middle of the room with enemies slowly running towards her. very few are infinitely scalable, and that's why snowglobe needed the "nerf" in the first place. it could keep out an infinite amount of damage

 

vauban's bastille used to be infinitely scalable, but that was exploitable, so the number of suspended targets was limited. at that point, people were surprised DE overlooked snow globe, and we thought that meant it was safe. but its time has come. I think there should be a limited number of snow globes castable at once. 3-5 seems pretty good. not sure if recasting it should remove the oldest one, or just not be able to be cast. that's something we'd have to test

 

that might solve the issues with griefers (sort of), and somewhat address the issue of infested not being able to take down a snow globe. trolls would be limited, so you can't turn earth into hoth, but you could also move your snow globes if you're fighting infested, which would otherwise be essentially permanent without a limit on duration, or any way to be damaged. if recasting snow globe while you're at maximum number didn't remove the last one, you'd be stuck with the first 3-5 you placed in an infested mission. recasting and removing the oldest one would allow you to move positions if you're doing infested survival. in that case, there should be some sort of indicator for how many globes you have active

 

and there should also be a way to tell how much health a globe has

 

and slightly more visibility through the globes would be nicer

[Frazeil]

Keep the duration IMO. The amount of snowglodes that get spammed sometimes is outright $&*&*#(%&, and quite annoying for team mates if they simply block their line of fire.

Buff the duration a bit, buff the health too and add in the armor, it should make game play a bit more tactical.

I'm not for all this cookie cutter nonsense, I'd like to see people come up with actual strategies for going against the higer leveled enemies, not just 'Spam Snowglobe'.

[Alcoran]

Cold damage fueling the health of the globe might be awesome - especially if you could do it with your own weapons. Equip a cold-damage weapon and blast it at your own snow globe which might be awesome.

[GhostWOlf995]

Good direction but very bad DE. Again this is.flat number,no matter how much armor it has , everything will get strong enought to 1 shot it.. Pls make it something that scale.. And that armor bonus is nothing with 3500hp, even with 15000 it would be nothing.

[GhostWOlf995]

If you're want to make Snow Globe health damage reduced by 155 Frost's armor... equip all health and shield mods, go to Pluto-Outer Terminus (i don't even talk about higher levels), meet a single Corpus Tech and let him kill you then you'll probably see the not a single one Damage Reduction can help when a single enemy can deal that amount a damage.

 

Make Globe armor scale like Grineer Armor scales. Maybe then it will make a bit of sence at least.

 

 

I don't know why this wasn't done still.

 

Basic Globe health should be increased as well, minumum 50% from a current numbers.

Very good point..

Hope De will se this.

[(PSN)Strad_37]

Those 2 changes would be great but if you remove the timer (please do) then when a new is cast the current one should die like lokis decoy. 

 With this in place then snow globe should be about right :)

If you were to have the Armour value apply to the health of the Snow Globe, remove the duration timer, AND implement a system as described in the quote above, then I think that Snow Globe would be solid. It would allow for it to be formidable enough to use but not possible for someone to spam the field with it causing gunfire to be impossible. 

[GhostWOlf995]

Apply Armor to Snowglobe is a must. It would make for some interesting builds. Depending on exactly how Armor interacts with the effective health of the globe, I would say to give frost a buff to his armor if its on the lower end. A gental nudge to his armor would also make steel fiber more viable for surivability for frost himself and not just snowglobe as well. So there is that.

 

As for removing the durration, I sugesest a few things.  

 

If the durration is removed, there needs to be a limit on snowglobes. Even just 1 should sufice if the armor->globe buff is ample enough.

 

If the durration stays, Maybe push up the base durration to a minute or 1.5 minutes. This should make it last long enough without there being too many globes on the field as well as keep Fleeting Expertise in ballance with the rest of Frost's abilities. Trolling with frost was possbible with durration builds and the "immortal" globe yet in my experence playing, I never saw a frost troll with it.

No 1 is not enought . Fusion moah can penetrate it thus 1 shoot the pod even with globe. and even w/o them, if your snowglobe break you wont going to have time to recast thet 1 because they already kiled the pod

[GhostWOlf995]

I like the idea Of those changes , Though I think giving frost more CC would be better change  like say change avalanche  from a dmage  skill to a CC debuff ,  with somthing like it freezes  targets in a certain area  for a few  secounds ,  frozen targets  take 50% more dmage this and ,the  globe duration removal/armor effecting its  hp  will help  his  end game potential alot

Exactly what i wanted to say

[Zhoyzu]

I am very much a fan of this. HOWEVER< globe needs a base hp buff still. unless you can get 1k armor on frost its just not gonna last nearly as long as it should. At its current base HP it still has little to no end game utility. Im sure DE has seen my other threads (at least rebecca has) and i dont think the hp buff needs to be massive but it needs an increase. I like that the globe has health and no duration now. 

 

The only problem i could see with snow globe not having a duration is that they would begin to hinder the team rather then help if the map becomes littered with globes. would it be possible to incorporate some max time like after 4 mins they dissipate? Or restrict the ability so there can only be a certain maximum number of globes on the field at any given time.

 

I think that these buff will put frost back in a good place and hell be even better then he was before. 

 

DE has succeeded in putting frost into "a place of power and action"

[Vaskadar]

Freeze should have a much, much larger AOE and freeze multiple targets.

 

Frost should ride a rolling avalanche of freezing snow if Avalanche is activated in the air. The cast time should be nearly instantaneous. This would address how uninteresting Avalanche currently is.

 

Snow globe should retain its buff from power strength, however, but only one should be able to be active at a time. Concurrent snowglobes should not be allowed.

 

I've played Frost the most out of all the warframes. He is easily my favorite, but his powers should be made more interesting and utility-based.

Edited March 4, 2014 by Vaskadar

[Incursum]

Give Frost's globe a hit count cap instead of a damage cap. Without the damage cap, his globe would scale to all levels, and enemies with a high rate of fire would be a threat no matter the level as well. Remove the timer so people don't have to camp in worries that the globe will run out.

To avoid making the globes last forever against infested, make enemies passing through the globe count as a hot as well.

[--.B.--Fr0stByt3-]

I saw something about making the snow globe based around the player like a frost leader enemy, and I think that would be a great idea. Maybe make the Snow Globe a player based buff type thing, with a health bar rating.

 

It might also be worth looking about making it have a cost over time. Instead of just a single base cost and immediate use, it can be a trickle, that takes anywhere from 1-5 energy per second it is deployed and about 15 immediately on casting. You could just deactivate it when you don't need it, and activate it in case of emergencies whenever you want.

 

It would be able to rid yourself of that fear that people will spam it all over the map, and remove the timer on it without making it so multiple globes are on the map. It would help Frost be a more strategic choice because he would have to be WITH the globe for it to work. It would have a health and armor rate which makes it that it CAN be destroyed and would have to be redeployed, but it would no longer be a click and walk away ability. It makes Frost seem more viable as a tank option, and can also help for crowd control which he's been lacking in compared to other frames.

[theammostore]

make cold damage regenerate globe health

this as well as armor applying. He has the highest possible armor out of any non Valkyr frame.

[Takai]

Armor over Health of globe, buff Frost's armor value a smidge.

 

High level play will pop the globe as it is. I do recognize that Corpus related "peirce damage" will kill the globe faster under this circumstance but that is better then it currently is (I dont see many Frost around lately, like none).

 

Consider: Making the globe explode into ice proc AOE (just for the players use, not the demiboss-mobs!) to make it offensive and defensive. This also will keep the globe from being immortal (and boring) as it previously was.

[Phoenix86]

What about this idea!

 

Let Snow Globe be affected by Armor

 

Increase Snow Globe's HP by 50% of current value

 

Change Ice Wave with a NEW skill: Freezing Steam

 

Freezing Steam:

 

Frost channels his energies in a cone of frozen mist, as long as it keeps channelling his energy is drained and everything it hits gets frozen and takes cold dmg, furthermore Freezing Steam has the feat to empower other frozen based abilities!

 

Rank 0-1-2-3

Cost: 25 to start the Steam, 5/sec to channel it

Dmg: 100-150-200-300 cold dmg/sec

Healing: 200-300-400-600 healing/sec

Freeze duration: 1-1-2-3 seconds

Range: 9-12-15-18m (width similar to Ignis)

 

Affected by Power Strenght, Power Range and Power Efficiency (only initial cost, the channelling is unaffected) mods.

 

This way Frost - or multiple Frosts! - can manage to keep their Snow Globes up as much as they want by simply healing it making its work a true defense one! Freezing foes and ACTIVELY do something to protect himself and others

Edited March 4, 2014 by Phoenix86

[-10no-Dark]

1) Have the Armor value apply to health of the Snow Globe

2) Remove Duration timer from Snow Globe

 

I'll never ever play again with any random frost, he is a perfect troll now.

This decision is equally stupid to globe's first nerf, thanks devs for doing just as my expectations predicted.

 

Devs had so many possibilities to overhaul the ability but it all was thrown in vain by another stupidly blunt decision, I expected no less from DE.

[LoRd_MePh1sTo]

2) Remove Duration timer from Snow Globe

 

 

 

This is not so nice as the 1st one ;(

[Leorion]

The timer was still implemented? The heck? I never noticed due to how fast it goes down. 

 

EDIT : Anyway, don't look at numbers because Devs should know before us that numbers do absolutely nothing in the higher levels. What we need from him is Utility. The utility he was stripped of. 

 

Here are some suggestions for utility :

 

> +25%, 50%, 100% damage when shooting from inside the globe. 

> When it breaks, it will stun enemies inside the globe and enemies surrounding the globe for 5/8/10 seconds.

> +25%, +50%, +75% damage boost (like Rhino roar) while inside the globe.

> When cast, all enemies within a set range will be slowed down. 

> +50%, +100%, +150% cold damage when shooting from inside the globe outwards. 

Edited March 4, 2014 by Leorion

[LoRd_MePh1sTo]

I used frost prime 10 hours ago and i didn t notice about vanishing of timer, i don t know if  is a future plan or?

[K_Shiro]

What about this idea!

 

Let Snow Globe be affected by Armor

 

Increase Snow Globe's HP by 50% of current value

 

Change Ice Wave with a NEW skill: Freezing Steam

 

Freezing Steam:

 

Frost channels his energies in a cone of frozen mist, as long as it keeps channelling his energy is drained and everything it hits gets frozen and takes cold dmg, furthermore Freezing Steam has the feat to empower other frozen based abilities!

 

Rank 0-1-2-3

Cost: 25 to start the Steam, 5/sec to channel it

Dmg: 100-150-200-300 cold dmg/sec

Healing: 200-300-400-600 healing/sec

Freeze duration: 1-1-2-3 seconds

Range: 9-12-15-18m (width similar to Ignis)

 

Affected by Power Strenght, Power Range and Power Efficiency (only initial cost, the channelling is unaffected) mods.

 

This way Frost - or multiple Frosts! - can manage to keep their Snow Globes up as much as they want by simply healing it making its work a true defense one! Freezing foes and ACTIVELY do something to protect himself and others

 

Managed to give you an upvote by accident but actually you deserve it for being creative.

Though I overall loath the idea of so many damage skills, yours isn't solely that. Your stats are brutally high though - doing that much damage, freezing, having such a range and obviously hitscan effect, even healing your stuff... that is simply brutal. Even half the amount is too high, especially for that energy cost.

But it wouldn't be so bad to see a channeled skill at last.

 

- -

 

For me I still feel that the main thing Frost should be is a CC frame. We have more than enough nuke and damage spells so here comes the sum of my ideas for Frost...

 

First of all I would make it so Freeze effects act like this:

- Freezing enemies render them immobile for duration.

- The effect can be prematurely broken by causing more damage than certain % of max. health in one hit. Depends on skill power but it is tiered like this: Fire/Physical/Blast, all other elements except Cold, Cold. Every tier needing double the % to break the state, cold cannot break it. For example fire, physical and blast needs to hit for 20% max. health to break it, others 40%, cold cannot break it.

- Enemies frozen have certain % debuff against physical and blast damage types. This is pure damage bonus againt them, not a decrease to resistances. Completely dependant on ability power. Fire element based attacks suffer half this effect in reverse (so 40% bonus to blast means 20% minus to fire as the encasing ice protects the target from the fire).

- If the duration is up, the enemies suffer "slow" effect for standard duration (like when Cold's status effect kicks in).

- If the effect is broken prematurely by damage, the target is knocked to the ground, those standing around him will suffer blast and/or impact damage from the shattering ice.

- If the effect is broken prematurely by damage, the damage is applied first (thus gains the whole bonus %), then the effect breaks. Even if the target dies, the ice shatters thus damaging those around.

- Bosses cannot be frozen but they are slowed to a complete halt at first and gradually "thaw out", preferably during half of the original time limit. The incoming damage debuff is applied to them as well, though the effect is halved since they are not completely frozen. I consider Stalker and kin bosses.

- Diminishing returns apply, repeated usage of this effect on the same enemy will yield decreased duration of effect.

This way it seems at least remotely logical and has tactical depth too (fire easily breaking the ice but having's it's effect weakened, cold not getting bonus but not breaking the effect at all, etc.).

- -

1. Freeze

So what I would do with it - endorsing the use of Frost as a CC frame:

Range: 50m, 3m aoe on impact location, enemies further away from the center of this aoe suffer weaker effects (decreased duration of effect and only slow when too far away), latter affected by power range mods.

- No initial damage.

- Enemies in 3m aoe (affected by power range mods) are frozen in place for 5/7/9/11 seconds (affected by duration mods).

- Frozen targets suffer incoming damage buff as mentioned above, increasing every kind of physical and blast damage dealt to them by 25/50/75/100%, affected by power strength mods. Fire damage is weakened by half the amount, again, as mentioned above.

- Prematurely breaking frozen status damages (cold and impact damage, 20/40/60/80) and knocks down those in range (the same 3m aoe + power range mods).

- After frozen status dissipates (either normally or prematurely) enemies are affected by cold's status, slowing them for a standard duration (like in case of weapon Cold status effect).

 

2. Ice Wave

Ice Wave was never really a specifically good damaging power (only adequate that looked "cool") I believe it could too use some rework. Yes, it was changed to apply slow to the enemies or whatnot but since originally it has applied cold damage and at that the status chance was 100%, it's only as good as it was and that's not really that good.

Currently Avalanche is simply outclassing it, much more worth that energy cost than 2 Waves. So:

- Ice spikes form on the ground, enemies hit by the growing shards (when the shards spawn) get knocked to the ground.

- The spikes stay, like some kind of ice trap, any enemy touching them gets damaged and slowed, cold damage, cold status effect - renewed as long as they are touching, after leaving area it dissipates normally.

- The damage could be like this: 60dps - 140dps for 5 seconds. Only the damage and range changes with upgrading the ability, the duration is only changed by power duration mods. The damage is counted as Damage per sec thus with higher duration the overall damage grows too. On a sidenote, damage should only partially consist of cold damage since in case of ice spikes, getting skewered might be a bit more of a problem than getting a cold.

- Intensify-like mods could affect the strength of the slowness effect too - it seems fairly logical.

 

3. Snow Globe

I'm one of those that actually think that the nerfing of the Globe was a logial and acceptable step. No I don't like how it was nerfed but I admit I like it even this way more than how it was. It was an invulnerable cover which you could shoot through effectively providing ranged immunity except railguns and explosions (latter is more of a bug or a simple miss in design, as it feels illogical if the other things are kept out). It made Frost into the "globeframe" with no skills whatsoever apart from Globe. It was a very narrow role it played. Though this has passed, it passed in a wrong way. Now Frost has literally nothing that differs him from others, the globe is weak as hell. Armor might help it but since we know how effective that was on Valkyr, I doubt it's the good way to solve the problem.

 

Winterhail/Blizzard/Snowstorm

Description: Frost takes control of the surrounding moisture, forming it into a raging storm of razorsharp ice, hindering ranged attacks and damaging enemies that venture inside.

Frost creates a storm made of icy shrapnels, dealing cold and slash damage to those inside, while weakening ranged attacks passing into/through the globe.

Range: 5m, affected by power range mods.

Duration: 30s, affected by power duration mods.

Damage: 15/30/60/90 per second, half slash, half cold damage (thus the overall damage is way lower than Ember's FireBlast), affected by power strength mods.

Enemies are slowed by 40/50/60/70% (or 67% on top if that had any meaning to be 67 instead of plain 70%).

Damage mitigation from ranged attacks is 30/40/50/60%, affected by power strength mods (if not affected, then it needs to go way higher).

Would be nice if shots interacting with (entering/spawning within) the storm would have a chance to be stopped (rockets still explode). Preferably the same % as for damage mitigation. If the 2 effects together might seem too strong or complicated, I would choose the latter with 44/56/68/80% as probability chance to intercept a ranged attack.

 

This way we get a worthy T3 ability which is still way less illogical and "absolute defense" than the original Snow Globe while MUCH more useful than current one.

 

4. Avalanche

Avalanche itself is not a bad ability by nature it's just that we have seen the near-exact same ability on other frames, countless times. It's nothing creative, only a large aoe damage spell, like that of Saryn, Mag etc. - even Volt is different since his Overload hold the possibility of higher damage thanks to the objects around, and Rhino has his "aftereffect" of floating enemies, making his über a "small" bastille for the recently (or soon to be) deceased. In fact Avalanche is like a reverse version of Rhino's stomp, first stunning, then damaging. But pretty much that's all the difference.

 

Here comes the "I would do the following" part:

Make Avalanche into something like Molecular Prime, an ability not dealing damage by itself (for MP you have to start killing the enemies since the effect only deals aoe damage if affected enemy dies - after then though... well you have seen dominos, so you get the idea).

 

Description: Summons a treacherous landslide of ice that instantly freezes enemies in the vicinity rendering them immobile and highly vulnerable to incoming physical and cold damage.

Range: 15/18/22/25m, affected by power range mods.

Freeze duration: 7/10/13/16s (affected by power duration mods).

Otherwise same as in case of Freeze, detailed above.

Edited March 5, 2014 by K_Shiro

[Phoenix86]

Managed to give you an upvote by accident but actually you deserve it for being creative.

Though I overall loath the idea of so many damage skills, yours isn't solely that. Your stats are brutally high though - doing that much damage, freezing, having such a range and obviously hitscan effect, even healing your stuff... that is simply brutal. Even half the amount is too high, especially for that energy cost.

But it wouldn't be so bad to see a channeled skill at last.

 

lol, thx i guess? :)

 

Ya well, numbers are just examples obviously because when i use "XX" ppl ask for numbers, when i put numbers ppl say "too much, too low" xD

[Mactax]

make cold damage regenerate globe health

The idea of such skill synergy is brilliant.

[Varzy]

As people have said, removing Duration will cause a lot of griefer activity. Perhaps duration should be buffed instead to about 40 - 45 seconds so you don't really have to worry about duration?

 

Armor affecting SG is a good idea, but Frost might need an armor buff. Cold attacks healing or regenerating the globe (Like Frost's Freeze) should be considered too for better synergy akin to accelerant.

[Jag272]

Agree with whats been said so far really, duration needs to go and a cap on how many can spawn, im thinking 2 globes at once at most. Most defense missions require only the one globe with the exception of the cave which requires two without any range mods equipped. The duration change has to happen though in my opinion.

 

The armour idea also seems nice to me, though possibly frost needs more armour however if armour will still work in combination with power strength buffs i think his armour is probably quite good already.

[GhostWOlf995]

The timer was still implemented? The heck? I never noticed due to how fast it goes down. 

 

EDIT : Anyway, don't look at numbers because Devs should know before us that numbers do absolutely nothing in the higher levels. What we need from him is Utility. The utility he was stripped of. 

 

Here are some suggestions for utility :

 

> +25%, 50%, 100% damage when shooting from inside the globe. 

> When it breaks, it will stun enemies inside the globe and enemies surrounding the globe for 5/8/10 seconds.

> +25%, +50%, +75% damage boost (like Rhino roar) while inside the globe.

> When cast, all enemies within a set range will be slowed down. 

> +50%, +100%, +150% cold damage when shooting from inside the globe outwards.

I like all of them :D