Frost Revisited 3/3/2014

[Rakosta_Kai]

Would the level of armor on the Snow Globe be based on the users armor level?

If so, would it be able to be modified by armor enhancing mods like Steel Fiber?

That would be a very viable change if that's the case.

 

My only concern, in that case, would be it's griefing viability as an ill mannered Frost player could run around depositing Globe shaped tanks all over the map that people can't shoot through.

 

Would you consider making each successive cast of Snow Globe start a timer on the previous Globe to keep that from happening?

 

I'd also ask that Freeze benefit from having it's Rank 3 Hold for a longer period than Rank 2 so that the need for Power Duration is removed altogether.

Increasing Freeze's projectile speed or adding some additional utility to not punish missed shots would also be helpful.

If projectile speed isn't or shouldn't be changed... Would you consider allowing the projectile to create a "freeze patch" that could conceivably setup the slow effect in a small area? Freeze has some great utlity in solo play, but that utility is greatly reduced in group play. The damage buff to it, while noticeable, isn't considerable enough to justify it's mod slot in group play scenarios. It's supposed to be equatable to FireBlast but it punishes missed shots more and and it's effects can be completely negated by other players or hyperactive sentinels. 

 

Anything you can do to help make Freeze more viable would be appreciated.

[RedPrimed]

Hey I pointed that out in my mods post on how nothing has armor value good to see its going to have

[tris1]

removing the timer from snow globe is a gd idea however just by doing this and adding armour to the globe I doubt this will make me even play the frame again. this would still be outbalanced by how iron skin works aswell as rhino has abilitys which don't seem to have hardly an cons to his skills for using any mods

 

such as iron skin

 

mobile

blocks all damage

blocks all procs

blocks all staggers

no duration

small area of effect

 

then you got snow globe not including the timer

 

large attracts way more damage and bullets

not mobile

blocks all certain damage

doesn't block staggers

doesn't block procs

 

this is still a big difference no matter if you take the timer off otherwise your going to have snow globes every where you go. frost will also still be next to useless as his other abilities still do not make a difference adding damage is just an over site

 

so instead I propose

 

snow globe: increase the slow range as the globe gets bigger, make it so it stops all damage and proc's like iron skin

 

freeze: like many keep asking add a aoe freeze in a cone shape or effect the targets around the main target that was hit

 

ice wave: have it so its effected by range mods which makes it longer and wider

 

avalanche: I see no cc ability still, unless that's due to me not using a stretch/overextend mod which means its still a bug and should just be given as a default to avalanche

 

this gives frost some pro's to his ability's instead of just massive cons

[Rhundis]

I definitely support the removal of the duration timer if there is going to be a health limit involved. But like others have suggested I recommend limiting the amount of time it can be used down to 3 or 4, with the 5th one canceling out the 1st upon activation. This gives you the ability to have multiple without too much trolling players. However, I'm not too worried about trolls, been playing this game since open beta and I have to say the community is great.

[FunkDoctaSpock]

I remember when DE did a similar thing concerning Mag's "Pull". The community clearly stated they wanted "pull" V2 back. DE acknowledged that fact, yet almost 6 month later, nothing has been done. Good luck with the globe Frost users, my Mag is still waiting for that day that the glorious pull v2 will return. Haven't used her ever since ...

[Nitresco]

Remove duration. Cap at one globe. Duration mods increase globe cap at a rate of +25% duration = 1 additional globe out at any time.

 

And make sure Fleeting Expertise doesn't give you a negative cap.

[Dovahjim]

If the globe can be killed, then it shouldn't be able to be killed by a timer.

Nekros' Army of the Dead die from a timer and damage too.

[Metsudo]

Adding armor will help a bit, but it still has an issue with scalability. Enemy damage scaling will mean there will always be a point where the globe will be all but useless regardless of armor. This issue applies to all the skills (defensive and offensive) that are based around a fixed number effect. Because infinite wave/survival exists, scalable skills are always going to be rated higher than fixed ones.

 

Armor for Warframes doesn't scale like the enemies does so it's an issue. Even Valkyr with a steel fiber mod can get shredded really quickly but at least she is mobile and has a human sized hit box, snow globe has neither of these and so will take much more fire.

 

Here's an idea. Give snow globe a maximum number of hits it can block before breaking (not damaged based hits), with innate regeneration on its hit points when not under fire. This would give it better survivability as well as meaning that it would take sustained fire from the enemy to break it. Make it a single cast skill so that it can't be stacked. With these changes the skill would scale at an even rate regardless of enemy level and the players would need to actually engage the enemy while snow globe is up so that it doesn't break quickly. It also wont be instantly broken by high damage shots. Power mods increase Hit points, duration timer still kept on too.

[IIJetfireII]

Removing the globe timer ain't bad, but the problem is, some ppl like using it for un-necessary reasons or messes it up at a wrong place and they make our shots completed blocked.

 

In my suggestion, Frost should be able to use his globe in similar to ice leader's globe. This way the trouble's won't be there, after the duration timer of globe is removed.

Edited March 4, 2014 by IIRodimusprimeII

[-CM-Sean]

or you could just change it back!!!

 

http://strawpoll.me/1231707

[Bobsplosion]

Nekros' Army of the Dead die from a timer and damage too.

They can shoot.

[Kethus]

-snip-

 

I fully support Psychosist's ideas, but in case DE is dead set on keeping the Globe's health then Frost should be able to maintain it.

 

The first version I have in mind is more simple: in case of unlimited duration and one globe limit, then casting Snow Globe while inside the globe itself should add health to the already existing defense equal to the max globe health, or a persentage of it, that can be stacked without limits. This will still have scaling issues and enemies at high levels will be able to shatter it before it can be repaired, but will be much better than the current solutions.

 

The second version sounds complex, at least to me, because no other powers I know of work that way. This could possibly be an idea for an eventual Powers 2.0? Anyway, DE will be the judge of that, here it is: Casting Snow Globe while Frost is inside would make the globe invulnerable and would stop its timer, while forcing the caster to remain stationary and continuously draining his energy. Pressing the button again, or running out of energy would reset the globe's health and timer back to their original values. While channeling the skill, Frost would be either unable to use weapons at all, or only use secondary weapon with one hand, much like carrying the datamass. This keeps the globe's health and duration, while still scaling with the enemy, albeit for a very limited time.

[(PSN)mkjt88]

I just want to see the health of the orb included in the timer. If the globe dies from its health the duration timer still shows its up. Have the health affect the timer by taking its tme down quicker as it's getting damaged or if the duration is removed just show the health where the timer is. And i like the idea of having one globe at a time.. Maybe even 2 i know it can come in handy to still have it on the pod and need one for hordes if you need to revive allies. Either way two max but one would be ok also. These things would really make this power better for everyone. Now rather they remove duration or not I'm not going to complain but like said above i am so for it as we can remove duration mods and build for his reach and strength better which all of his skills would benefit from.

EDIT: Quick thought about having frosts globe follow him like leaders.. I am against this completely. People are talking about it being hard to shoot when globes are spammed but i think this would be worse.. Frost having a big ole globe that he can move in front of you with or stand in front of a small area where a horde comes from will block everyone from shooting that direction. At least when stationary it's only one spot and if they remove unlimited globes being able to be laid it will be even better stationary. Moving around is trouble in my eyes. It will only benefit frost and no one else. Imagine 2 or 3 frosts with big globes running around the map making it so hard to have places to be able to shoot. Please stray from this idea.

Edited March 4, 2014 by (PS4)mkjt88

[Tali]

Removing the globe timer ain't bad, but the problem is, some ppl like using it for un-necessary reasons or messes it up at a wrong place and they make our shots completed blocked.

 

In my suggestion, Frost should be able to use his globe in similar to ice leader's globe. This way the trouble's won't be there, after the duration timer of globe is removed.

This!

[(PSN)mkjt88]

You think a moving shield wouldn't make it hard to shoot? Imagine a frost or even two running around with globes.. This would block you from shooting anything if he's in front or even a few meters around you. I just see this being worse than having it stationary. I just think it needs to only allow one maybe two globes to be created at once.

[superbot34]

Perhaps instead of attempting to work around snowglobe, improve it against Grineer. As we all know, snow globe is near useless against Grineer as Napalms and Bombards AoE blasts and procs can still reach you easily inside. Your team will die by your feet inside of your "impenetrable" globe as they are set on fire and knocked out by blast and fire procs.

The following is a copy of a post from the Warframe Wikia i made:

"Example 1: Snow globe is significantly larger than iron skin (iron skin is just the user) and in turn will usually take all or most incoming damage, depleting very quickly in most cases. This does not make snow globe "useless" but it requires placing in corners or behind tall walls to avoid damage that might not even be directed at you, in order to recharge shields/reload, etc.

Example 2: Unlike ice Leaders, whose snow globe can travel with them, frost's cannot, meaning the usefulness is limited when required to move around. Often frost is chosen for Defense, Survival, or other missions of that sort, where defense is critical. Frost by definition is a defense frame, primarily due to snow globe covering more then just himself. However, the immobility of it coupled with its set damage pool proves less effective.

When comparing ultimate powers: Rhino and Frost both have high damage, AoE ultimate powers. Frost will quickly cast a freezing avalanche around surrounding enemies, stunning them then freezing them. Rhino does a similar thing, although it will essentially "freeze" the enemies for a period of time while doing damage. When frost's power is over, enemies will be allowed to move around immediately afterwards, whereas with rhino you are free to move around/take cover after using said power.

But how to fix these problems?

A start, would be to fix the way snow globe behaves. One solution, would be to allow the snowglobe to "spawn" smaller snowglobes around teammates. Say my main snow globe can hold back 5,000 total damage. When near a teammate, a snow globe will appear on them, both will become 50% smaller, and repel 50% less damage (going by how much the original has left to block) and so on. Which of course means, making snow globe mobile, OR, making teammate's versions mobile.

Teammates could run into the globe, after 'x' seconds, the larger globe will slowly get smaller and smaller as the player inside grabs some of the freezing frost, until 50% of the original is taken, in which the player may leave with the temporary protective globe around them.

Even better (to avoid 3 pluto's running around the map) is to simply apply the inside freezing wind effect to players, instead of a new globe (similar to Zephyr's turbulence power) which will slow enemies that get close to players, without protecting them. This could be explained by stating "players inside will have their warframes supercooled, allowing temporary freezing auras" in the mod.

In either case, the original snow globe will not be able to move, and the original caster cannot gain this movable bonus.

This would solve the major problem with snow globe, but will still not fix the fact that napalms and Bombards still can hurt you with their AoE explosions and procs. Still, it is a better solution then simply making snow globe stronger, a nerf was needed but it created more problems than solutions.

Edited March 4, 2014 by superbot34

[JonathanJupiter]

I vote for option number 2.

[Clawtank96]

1) Have the Armor value apply to health of the Snow Globe

Make it power mods affect the armor level of the globe.

[(PSN)ShadowDancing-]

I remember when DE did a similar thing concerning Mag's "Pull". The community clearly stated they wanted "pull" V2 back. DE acknowledged that fact, yet almost 6 month later, nothing has been done. Good luck with the globe Frost users, my Mag is still waiting for that day that the glorious pull v2 will return. Haven't used her ever since ...

 

except Pull vNow is great and useful all the time.  Not being what you want is different than being sufficiently useless on high level missions that you can just forma the snow globe slot away and not miss anything.

[WhiteCopain]

or you could just change it back!!!

 

http://strawpoll.me/1231707

Don't think you get the entire point to the change...

 

 

 

 

 

I wish people would stop asking for the buff to be anything but armor. The whole point of it being armor is to actually encourage the use of it. But you guys just want to use your same thousand HP/shield with super long range super damage at no energy cost build. You don't want to even try a different build :V..

[(PSN)IIIDevoidIII]

The only way I can see to make snow globe scale with enemy levels is to change the HP/damage model.  Instead of what we have now, I would suggest that every snow globe be able to support a certain number of "hits".  The actual amount of damage that the rocket/laser/bullet would do to the globe is irrelevant, just the number of times that the globe is struck.  This would have a couple of interesting consequences:

 

1) Scalability - A level 1 trooper does the same damage to the globe as a level 35 trooper, but the globe "will" fall eventually.

2) Strategy - It would be important to target enemies with shotguns and rapid fire weapons over snipers and bombards due to the number of hits the globe would take.  This creates a situation where you could make tactical decisions in the game that affect your team's success.

3) Power Strength mods would still affect the globe, it would simply grant more hits before it dissipates.

 

If this has already been suggested before, my apologies.  I didn't see it anywhere so I thought I'd throw it out there.

This is the idea I'm finding to be most practical over other ones that I have read, and sector24 spells it out quite nicely. Say, 150 base shots destroy the globe, and level out 200, 300, 450, respectively would be a far better take on the non-invincibility of the globe.

[WhiteCopain]

This is the idea I'm finding to be most practical over other ones that I have read, and sector24 spells it out quite nicely. Say, 150 base shots destroy the globe, and level out 200, 300, 450, respectively would be a far better take on the non-invincibility of the globe.

450 Bullets taken to make it vanish on something that doesn't really have a cooldown and can easily be made dirt cheap would just be taking it back to god mode. An Entire wave of mobs might shoot 150 bullets if they're lucky and you're all sitting inside the globe while the other three players are playing Excalibur without Blind (IE no AOEs)

[Cr4p]

The current changes to snow globe don't work as intended. It was stated that the idea was to make it so frost was not tied to one spot just to cast snow globe over and over, but with the weakened snow globe, frost's mobility is actually lessened even more, because now you have no idea when the snowglobe might go down, and at higher level play it goes down much more frequently requiring the frost to be present to recast to protect objectives.

 

So the change has made it so the frost doesn't even get the 20 or whatever seconds of roaming around he used to be able to do without worrying the defense objective would be completely defenseless at range.

 

I'm not sure how to modify snow globe to make him more mobile without destroying one of the more unique abilities in the game and I think turning frost into a mobile CC tank seems pointless, we already have Rhino for that.

 

I guess a big part of all of this balancing of frames comes down to, do the devs expect every frame to be equally well suited to every situation or do they expect certain frames to excel in certain situations and not be as well suited to others (which is more or less the way it is now, and which I personally don't think is a bad thing. It makes it so each frame has a sort of purpose and makes for interesting combinations of different frames in teams, and also gives incentive for players to have multiple/all frames, which one way or another eventually puts money in DE's pockets (for slots if nothing else)).

 

My personal vote is still revert snowglobe to what it was (at least until a better solution/alternative is found), but since the dev's have shown a very strong resistance to reverting big changes up until now (rhino, infested removal, decoy, molt, etc.) I won't hold my breath, but the current change has actually forced frost to be LESS mobile and more reliant on constantly respamming snow globe, not less. :/

 

One "solution" I can think of, is a bit larger scale than just frost, but its the idea of adding multiple ability sets (or less desirable but possibly still workable, ways of modifying abilities) for frames.

 

For example, alternate versions of snow globe mods, which do slightly different things, like damage enemies passing through the globe rather than reflecting bullets, or radiating a sort of fear effect that repels enemies failing whatever passes for saving throws in this game (or alternatively additional mods that can be used to modify skills in this way, although with the lack of mod slots already, this is a much less feasible option for players).

 

The idea could obviously be expanded to other frames, e.g. alternate versions of ember abilities using different elements instead of fire (heat) to make her more viable against heat resistant enemies and such.

 

If the dev's are looking to make the frames less specialized and more, any frame can be useful anywhere sort of thing, seems like maybe that would work for me (although at that point one starts to wonder what the point of different frames would be).

Edited March 4, 2014 by Cr4p

[Zagrax]

My frost revisit thoughts.

 

Impale - Fires a high velocity ice spike with innate puncture that does 250/500/750/1000 puncture/cold damage that can pin enemies to walls, slows if it doesn't kill.

 

Cold Snap - AOE Cone that freezes solid all enemies caught in it for X seconds, and amplifies all damage taken while frozen by 1.5 (this ability is phenomenal as it scales similar to nova!)

 

Snow Globe - Invulnerable for 1/4th the duration, possibly give us some sort of visual indicator of breakage to allow for more precise recasting when under stress. Make it boatloads tougher.

 

Avalanche - This is great, keep it where it is.

[(PSN)IIIDevoidIII]

450 Bullets taken to make it vanish on something that doesn't really have a cooldown and can easily be made dirt cheap would just be taking it back to god mode. An Entire wave of mobs might shoot 150 bullets if they're lucky and you're all sitting inside the globe while the other three players are playing Excalibur without Blind (IE no AOEs)

Then scale it down, it was just provided as an example. maybe cap it at 200 (shotgun based weapons will use a lot of the durability).