[Guide] How Not To Emblem: A Cautionary Tale.

[holyicon]

I would like to disagree with the OP on one point: You should NOT use Bicubic Sharper for downscaling like this. Bicubic, Bicubic Smoother, or Bilinear will give better results in nearly all cases when downscaling. The sharper variant is actually more useful for upscaling.

 

 

<snip>

  

That actually depends on when you're downsampling, if your layers are merged before or after, and the overall color content of the image.

I recommend bilinear sharper, without merging your layers, before you export the 128x128.png. Because of the difference in some applications between in-editor interpolation and export interpolation. I can't tell you WHY some of them use a different method, it could be an issue with the order in which the export down-samples vs merging layers? But for what I've worked on, that setting has consistently worked the best.

Though you are very correct, that it's likely not the best setting for all images or layer compositions. I can append my advice to include that caveat.

Could be the difference in our software or version? I use Photoshop CS4.

Also, do you mind if I site your emblems in the OP? Players may benefit from it. I'll make sure to credit you and include what imaging software you used to achieve your success with your method.

 

[egregiousRac]

  

That actually depends on when you're downsampling, if your layers are merged before or after, and the overall color content of the image.

I recommend bilinear sharper, without merging your layers, before you export the 128x128.png. Because of the difference in some applications between in-editor interpolation and export interpolation. I can't tell you WHY some of them use a different method, it could be an issue with the order in which the export down-samples vs merging layers? But for what I've worked on, that setting has consistently worked the best.

Though you are very correct, that it's likely not the best setting for all images or layer compositions. I can append my advice to include that caveat.

Could be the difference in our software or version? I use Photoshop CS4.

Also, do you mind if I site your emblems in the OP? Players may benefit from it. I'll make sure to credit you and include what imaging software you used to achieve your success with your method.

 

 

I have found identical results in Photoshop CS3-CC. Having never used the export system for anything other than animated GIF (I always downsample beforehand and then use the standard Save As), I don't know anything about those artifacts.

The tip to not use Bicubic Sharper is coming from it doing nothing but introduce artifacts via running an uncontrolled sharpen filter on the image.

Here are examples using one of the emblems I showed before:

Blown Up 2x (Click on it. the forum is making it smaller again, messing up the clenliness):

From left to right: Bicubic Sharper, Bicubic Smoother, Bicubic, Bilinear, Nearest Neighbor

 

From a technical standpoint, Bicubic is the most accurate of these. Bicubic Sharper and Bicubic Smoother are a combination of standard Bicubic and other filters. Bilinear is a simpler algorithm, dating from times when Bicubic was too intensive.

Looking at the samples, artifacts are clearly visible in the Sharper sample. Smoother and standard Bicubic are nearly identical. Bilinear has some issues with aliasing diagonals, and Nearest Neighbor is a bad idea for obvious reasons.

 

You are welcome to use my emblems as examples. That is why I provided them.

For reference, they were both produced at very high resolutions and then scaled down. The one I used as an example here was a 3700x3700px 3D render in Rhino3D 5 with the built in renderer. It was then edited in Photoshop and finally scaled down for final upload.

The other one, as with most that I have done, was drawn in 2D in Rhino. Any vector application would do, but that is what I am comfortable with. I then export extremely high resolution rasterizations (usually around 6000x6000px) of each element separately. I bring those into Photoshop to do coloring, shading, and any other detailing or text work I need.

[holyicon]

On 2/18/2016 at 3:06 AM, egregiousRac said:

 

I have found identical results in Photoshop CS3-CC. Having never used the export system for anything other than animated GIF (I always downsample beforehand and then use the standard Save As), I don't know anything about those artifacts.

The tip to not use Bicubic Sharper is coming from it doing nothing but introduce artifacts via running an uncontrolled sharpen filter on the image.

<snip>

You are welcome to use my emblems as examples. That is why I provided them.

For reference, they were both produced at very high resolutions and then scaled down. The one I used as an example here was a 3700x3700px 3D render in Rhino3D 5 with the built in renderer. It was then edited in Photoshop and finally scaled down for final upload.

The other one, as with most that I have done, was drawn in 2D in Rhino. Any vector application would do, but that is what I am comfortable with. I then export extremely high resolution rasterizations (usually around 6000x6000px) of each element separately. I bring those into Photoshop to do coloring, shading, and any other detailing or text work I need.

Thanks for the demos.

For my part, I pulled out an old copy of "Photoshop 4" and those results are more consistent with your examples when using the conversion export option.

Given that, I'll append my recommendation to just "Bicubic" for the Export option to be inline with "Bicubic" for the internal resampling.

EDIT: And I'll more strongly reccomend internal downsampling before exporting.

EDIT 2: Incidentally, "Bicubic Sharper" does not run a sharpen filter. It adjusts the value of interpolation between each pixel to be more on the conservative side. Likewise "Bicubic Smoother" allows more blending from adjacent pixels.
The "artifacting issue" a.k.a. pixel bleed arises when you're cramming over 1000 or so pixels into 10 pixels or even less. When using "Bicubic Sharper" there's an overcorrection. It can have somewhat similar results as using the "Sharpen" filter command, but arrives there in a completely different way.
The differences are in the values used during the interpolation, rather than an added filter pass. And since Export merges layers BEFORE downsampling, that's why I suggested Sharper for exports. The old post said use Bicubic as the system general setting. But I admit, that could have been more clear.
Downsampling as you export has so many issues, interpolation being one of them.
 

Edited February 23, 2016 by holyicon

[EnzoVulkoor]

So why does the preview not update when you use a new file?

So hidden deep in 5th page google search was my answer. DE caches the images for 30 minutes. So if you are checking to see how it looks on the preview.. Wait 30 minutes between each upload.

Shame we can't get some sort of render test thing going with the Steam's SFM.

 

Edited April 1, 2016 by KuzmaVolkov

[holyicon]

3 hours ago, KuzmaVolkov said:

So why does the preview not update when you use a new file?

If I understand you correctly, you mean the Preview of your emblem on the Excal Image when submitting for your Clan, before you pay the 150 Plat.

If so, that might be a recent issue with the Emblem Submittal process due to Digital Extreme's new hardware/software they just got for the site. You may want to submit a support ticket. This thread is for the imaging of the Emblem itself. The submittal process is a technical issue, sorry :(

[Wylph]

I only found this thread after I submitted. I did downscale from a high res and so on and in the preview it falsely displayed as being perfect. I even avoided using any kind of 3D effects and used basic flat vectors.

It turned out like utter trash. I'm not paying for it again. Utterly bleak after finally dropping the plat on this after 3 years of playing.

 

 

Edited April 1, 2016 by Wylph

[holyicon]

7 hours ago, Wylph said:

I only found this thread after I submitted. I did downscale from a high res and so on and in the preview it falsely displayed as being perfect. I even avoided using any kind of 3D effects and used basic flat vectors.

It turned out like utter trash. I'm not paying for it again. Utterly bleak after finally dropping the plat on this after 3 years of playing.

 

 

Yikes! that's such a BA Emblem too, utter shame. Makes me mad all over again.

And unfortunately I've had no luck with the Tennogen app getting the An Emblem to look right as a "Skin" for the purposes of testing in a near-game-engine environment; hopefully, in the future they'll give us a hardpoint to import Emblems for that specific purpose. Until then, we've only got this sticky.

Thanks for the images tho, and hope it helps even more people.

[egregiousRac]

14 hours ago, Wylph said:

I only found this thread after I submitted. I did downscale from a high res and so on and in the preview it falsely displayed as being perfect. I even avoided using any kind of 3D effects and used basic flat vectors.

It turned out like utter trash. I'm not paying for it again. Utterly bleak after finally dropping the plat on this after 3 years of playing.

 

 

You don't need to pay to fix it. Contact support and work with them. They will happily re-upload fixed versions.

A couple things I am noticing there in the things you posted:

• You have some drop shadows and glow going onto the transparent background. Due to how the blending works, this can actually cause an enormous increase in bloom. I would select the chaos star and apply that as a mask to the white layer. You can then limit that mask to only hide effects, not the layer itself.
  • I would probably remove the glow altogether, leaving only the drop shadow. The glow simply muddies the composition.
• Your primary element is pretty much pure white right now. You could tone that down slightly by using a soft bevel to a pale yellow color. That would maintain apparent brightness while reducing technical brightness, which would cut down the bloom.
• It also appears that there is a bit of white sticking to the outside of the chaos star. Stick a black background behind it in your image editor and you should be able to see them. They may be faint, but cleaning them up is important.

Anyways, I hope that you can solve the issues with it and get it looking awesome. It is a very cool design.

[holyicon]

On 4/1/2016 at 5:02 PM, egregiousRac said:

You don't need to pay to fix it. Contact support and work with them. They will happily re-upload fixed versions.

- snip -

I'm gonna have to look into this.

If that's true, it's a change that was made after much of the work I'd done in my OP, and wasn't made aware of. As I had to pay to resubmit as was explicitly indicated by the submittal page at the time.

I'll be appending the OP with the relevant correct info when I have time to investigate, and if there's even any confirmable information I can gather without having an emblem currently in the process of needing a support review. >.>;; 

[egregiousRac]

5 hours ago, holyicon said:

I'm gonna have to look into this.

If that's true, it's a change that was made after much of the work I'd done in my OP, and wasn't made aware of. As I had to pay to resubmit as was explicitly indicated by the submittal page at the time.

I'll be appending the OP with the relevant correct info when I have time to investigate, and if there's even any confirmable information I can gather without having an emblem currently in the process of needing a support review. >.>;; 

I know that I made adjustments via support after my first emblem turned out to be a flashlight. The rules on the submittal page say you have to pay for resubmission, but they want us to be happy. As such, fixing emblems that turned out horrible is logical.

[Wylph]

On 01/04/2016 at 10:02 PM, egregiousRac said:

You don't need to pay to fix it. Contact support and work with them. They will happily re-upload fixed versions.

A couple things I am noticing there in the things you posted:

• You have some drop shadows and glow going onto the transparent background. Due to how the blending works, this can actually cause an enormous increase in bloom. I would select the chaos star and apply that as a mask to the white layer. You can then limit that mask to only hide effects, not the layer itself.
  • I would probably remove the glow altogether, leaving only the drop shadow. The glow simply muddies the composition.
• Your primary element is pretty much pure white right now. You could tone that down slightly by using a soft bevel to a pale yellow color. That would maintain apparent brightness while reducing technical brightness, which would cut down the bloom.
• It also appears that there is a bit of white sticking to the outside of the chaos star. Stick a black background behind it in your image editor and you should be able to see them. They may be faint, but cleaning them up is important.

Anyways, I hope that you can solve the issues with it and get it looking awesome. It is a very cool design.

Thanks for the tips and compliments. I started removing effects over the weekend. The glow on the wolfs head was supposed to light up the edges slightly to prevent conflict with the various warframe colour schemes. I think because of the multiple overlapping layers was why I had colour bleeding out.

I also submitted a ticket to support last week but they've yet to reply. The lack of official support/ guidance on this is a bit frustrating.

Once I have a chance to fix up the design again I'll post it here and you all can tell me if it'll work.

[Wylph]

I've been waiting over a week for support to reply to me. Working on different ideas for the design now without white preferably!

[The_Archimedian]

Does it have to be exactly 128 x 128 square, or not more than 128 x 128?  The emblem I want is a shield so it needs to be rectangular.

[egregiousRac]

2 hours ago, SilentSabre6 said:

Does it have to be exactly 128 x 128 square, or not more than 128 x 128?  The emblem I want is a shield so it needs to be rectangular.

The file must be 128x128. The image can be any dimensions within that, as long as it is padded with transparency out to 128x128.

[Wylph]

So support finally replied and I got another opportunity to upload. Made it really plain and simple this time and avoided white. The eyes are grey to avoid the bloom. It's not exactly what I wanted but this will do. Will post back once it's implemented in game again.

 

 

The alt version I prefer but I'm not sure it would turn out well.

 

[Wylph]

It looks a lot sharper in game. Tured out quite well except for the slightly thicker lines. This could be down to compression or simply the red was too bright. I scaled down from 4k x 4k canvas and used bicubic smoothing. If anyone needs any more info or whatever just say.

I think I could've been more experimental with layers and transparency now I understand how the image renders in game.

 

             

Edited April 21, 2016 by Wylph

[holyicon]

On 4/21/2016 at 0:03 PM, Wylph said:

It looks a lot sharper in game. Tured out quite well except for the slightly thicker lines. This could be down to compression or simply the red was too bright. I scaled down from 4k x 4k canvas and used bicubic smoothing. If anyone needs any more info or whatever just say.

I think I could've been more experimental with layers and transparency now I understand how the image renders in game.

Sorry you had to lose the fire. But it still looks badass. And thanks again for keeping up with the updates and fighting for your emblem. ^^

I'm sure others will benefit from your effort.

I can add your results to my top post if that's okay with you?

Edited April 22, 2016 by holyicon

[Wylph]

On 22/04/2016 at 6:57 PM, holyicon said:

Sorry you had to lose the fire. But it still looks badass. And thanks again for keeping up with the updates and fighting for your emblem. ^^

I'm sure others will benefit from your effort.

I can add your results to my top post if that's okay with you?

Sure add away.

One thing I will say is if people are using a line design, make them really thin as the bloom thickened my lines x3 even with a darkish red. The clarity also varies between level types because of the different lighting types! I may re-do it again at some point then will post back again if I do.

[CafePots]

awsome

[(PSN)aiptekfanboy]

On console with rail conflicts dead it makes it pointless to do anything clan related

[Reifnir]

I'm actually surprised that the whole "upload an emblem" business is not getting more bashing. It should.

We're paying close to $10 (in case no discount was available) for something that should be free, and worst of all, it costs the same amount to change it.

And since the page preview is inaccurate and in-game preview is absent, you *are* likely to have to re-submit. This is beyond bad. I can get it when wiki research is required to learn stuff about frames, weapons and such. It's normal. But when you have to dig the forums for a lecture on how exactly is the Preview of a paid feature lying to you, it's simply disgusting.

There *needs* to be a proper in-game preview (same as Dojo color picker, at least), plain and simple. 

[holyicon]

On 6/24/2016 at 3:41 AM, Reifnir said:

I'm actually surprised that the whole "upload an emblem" business is not getting more bashing. It should.

We're paying close to $10 (in case no discount was available) for something that should be free, and worst of all, it costs the same amount to change it.

And since the page preview is inaccurate and in-game preview is absent, you *are* likely to have to re-submit. This is beyond bad. I can get it when wiki research is required to learn stuff about frames, weapons and such. It's normal. But when you have to dig the forums for a lecture on how exactly is the Preview of a paid feature lying to you, it's simply disgusting.

There *needs* to be a proper in-game preview (same as Dojo color picker, at least), plain and simple. 

  
Well, I tried to keep the initial post as upbeat as I could. In the hopes that SOMEBODY on the dev staff would be moved, not by negativity, but by a sense of community commiseration, or heck, even empathy.

As far as this feature being free... somebody on staff still needs to review the Emblem for content approval. Granted this only takes about 30sec per emblem and they only need to sit for about an hour a week to do it.
I assume the cost itself is to prevent spam, but in a perfect world it would be about 15 plat: just enough to cover staff cost. 150 imho is profiteering especially when it's also the resub cost.

I would like (and have made several suggestions) that the TennoGen tool in Steam support Emblem Previews. Since that would be a lot easier to implement than in the actual game itself (along with improving the lighting in TennoGen). But an actual in-game option would be best solution, something here the Warlord could upload it to the dojo for a 5min preview and the whole clan could see it: on Arm Emblems and Flags... but this is Pie-in-the-Sky thinking, is it not?

 

So... I TRY to keep things upbeat... but if you think I should bash...

Spoiler

Sometimes I wonder if the devs are reluctant to take or address the really good suggestions, not because we lowly players below them and overestimate the value of our suggestions, but because the devs are afraid they could never live up to our vision of their game if they tried: or maybe they are just mad they never thought of it themselves, and are resentfully withholding good ideas from being implemented?

Or maybe, it's because we suggest things here, and not on the all-important, glorious SUBREDDIT... which is clearly the forum that gets the bulk of the dev's attention. Bloody favorite child. A pox upon your subreddit! Fie, I say! Fie!

 

[Reifnir]

Well, I just felt the need to vent after seeing 300 plat go down the drain - the first time I didn't know about  "try fiddling with filters in Photoshop before uploading" (and got a jagged, overexposed nightmare as a result), the second - when even the post-gaussian blur sample did not tell me how it would look in game. At least after the first round of tweaks it looks decent on Dojo standards. Not on shoulder emblem, though, so I guess that will have to wait a LONG time till I consider upping the count of wasted plat to 450 and make another attempt. 

Maybe by the time Warframe goes from its current lengthy "beta" into "official" release they'll think of something. Maybe. 

[holyicon]

32 minutes ago, Reifnir said:

Well, I just felt the need to vent after seeing 300 plat go down the drain - the first time I didn't know about  "try fiddling with filters in Photoshop before uploading" (and got a jagged, overexposed nightmare as a result), the second - when even the post-gaussian blur sample did not tell me how it would look in game. At least after the first round of tweaks it looks decent on Dojo standards. Not on shoulder emblem, though, so I guess that will have to wait a LONG time till I consider upping the count of wasted plat to 450 and make another attempt. 

Maybe by the time Warframe goes from its current lengthy "beta" into "official" release they'll think of something. Maybe. 

  

You might want to try going through the Zendesk options as discussed in ----== Part 5 ==---- and in Page 3 of this thread. You """should""" _(maybe) be able to get another crack at getting the Emblem right. But unfortunately (like mine) the 300 plat is gone. I'm still kinda sore too. And I totally understand the venting.

Edited June 28, 2016 by holyicon

[Vyra]

god, i wanted to upload a clan logo but reading all those troubles and incompatiblities i rather stuck with that lotus emblem...