Why Does My Space Ninja Take So Long To Get Off The Floor?

[krisp]

In fighting games you are fighting against other people so it's, technically, an even match. In games where you are playing against game AI it is not so you need to have some disadvantages so they could offer some challenge.

Being outnumbered, enemies appearing behind you and enemies having a lot more hp than you is enough of a disadvantage. Removing control of your character for a full 3 seconds isn't the thing that makes difficulty balanced, nor will it ever be.

[shoudra]

When you can press one button and totally disrupt, kill, occupy all those dozens of AI... nooope.

The challenge comes in avoiding getting hit not after getting hit.

Mak Tzu - Art of Warframe.

In a corpus mission with infinite spawns and you are clearing in front of you and the back was all clear and the boxes spawn new ones right after you cleared the room? I am not being sarcastic but, maybe I am unlucky this happens to me every couple of missions

[Mak_Gohae]

So then why have HP and shields at all if you're not supposed to get hit by anything? Wouldn't the game be way better if you died in one hit?

Not all Tenno are advanced enough to use the Loki Warframe, this is why Excalibur had to be created.

Mak Tzu - The Art of Warframe.

At any rate-Of all the advantages AI can be given you havent provided any reason why the potential to stun lock is a good choice.

The question of stun lock capable or no stun lock capable is not same thing as asking if Warframe should be easy or hard.

It can be a very difficult game without stunlock or it could be a very easy game even with stun lock.

The fear of stun lock teaches a Tenno three things; Be aware of your surroundings, be aware what enemy to dispatch with haste, be aware of what abilities you can use to counter it.

Mak Tzu - The Art of Warframe.

[MJ12]

Not all Tenno are advanced enough to use the Loki Warframe, this is why Excalibur had to be created.

Mak Tzu - The Art of Warframe.

Give me a straight answer. If you think 'inevitably dying if you make a single mistake or have a slight bit of bad luck or decide to fight the Sedna boss and things don't turn out exactly as planned' is an objectively good thing that makes the game more fun and "teaches" players things, why do we have health? Or shields? Shouldn't we just all die in a single hit?

The fear of stun lock teaches a Tenno three things; Be aware of your surroundings, be aware what enemy to dispatch with haste, be aware of what abilities you can use to counter it.

Mak Tzu - The Art of Warframe.

Actually it teaches you one thing:

1. What bad game design is and why it should be avoided.

What legitimate purpose does stunlock serve that being instantly killed wouldn't? (The answer is none). Do you think that random mook enemies should be able to instantly kill you without warning?

Edited March 28, 2013 by MJ12

[zelgaris]

Nothink personal, Mak, but could you write actual useful and informative things without that wannabe-RP BS? Because stuff like

Not all Tenno are advanced enough to use the Loki Warframe, this is why Excalibur had to be created.

is kind of a joke...

The stunlock could be considered as a bad design actually. Giving us a way to evade it, when it happens - even in case of draining some stamina (half of stamina, all stamina?) - could possibly solve the issue.

[Mak_Gohae]

Ok, Commander Mak Gohae is back to explain the very wonderful and wise words of General Mak Tzu.

His words are so great that some times they need further explanation to fully understand them.

That's a wonderful nonanswer that demonstrates exactly what I suspected, that you really are one of those "lrn2play" "elite" gamers who are a toxic &#! cancer on the gaming community in general. And a grognard. I do love the "Mak Tzu" thing, though. You insult Sun Tzu by cloaking your complete lack of actual wisdom in his name.

Give me a straight f**king answer. If you think 'inevitably dying if you make a single mistake or have a slight bit of bad luck or decide to fight the Sedna boss and things don't turn out exactly as planned' is an objectively good thing that makes the game more fun and "teaches" players things, why do we have health? Or shields? Shouldn't we just all die in a single hit?

The wonderful General gave you the OBVIOUS answer to your obvious question. Why do we have shields? To give people a chance to survive. That's all there is to it. Could the game be one hit dead? Sure, but it isnt.

So why are you mad at the obvious and clear answer?

But having shield and health doesnt mean that you will never die, having shields and health means you CAN DIE.

So your job is to best maneuver the battlefield and try to survive. Some times you win and some times you loose. And everyone looses (except the wonderful General Mak Tzu) so dont get mad when you do. Try your best and learn from each mistake.

Actually it teaches you two things:

1. What bad game design is and why it should be avoided.

and

2. How 'toxic customers' can ruin games by rabidly defending objectively bad mechanics simply because they suffer a bit less from them so they can laugh at the people who are frustrated at them and delude themselves into thinking this makes them worth something as a person. Or that other people are less 'advanced' or 'skilled' than they are.

But keep going, keep demonstrating to everyone on this forum why you're a toxic customer whose desires seek solely to drive other people away from this game for your own self-aggrandizement.

There are too many ways to avoid getting stun lock to call this bad game design.

1. Lotus tells you they are coming.

2. They make a specific sound.

3. They are colored in a specific way.

4. You can avoid the wave by jumping.

5. You now have Sentinels that can slow them.

6. You can use one of you many abilities to avoid, kill, stop them from performing the attack.

I am not saying that you can avoid 100% of the time every encounter... but you have enough tools to give yourself an edge almost ALL the time. If you do get some horrible combination of things you will die, we are not all as great and General Mak Tzu, but those are rare events and if you use all your tools available those will only happen when the game decides to give you that perfect storm.

[Splosions]

The fear of stun lock teaches a Tenno three things; Be aware of your surroundings, be aware what enemy to dispatch with haste, be aware of what abilities you can use to counter it.

90% of the time when a game dev discovers that something can "Stun Lock" a player, it gets removed or at least nerfed. The phrase "Stun Lock" has a very very negative conotation with it, indicating, no one ever finds any enjoyment with it. It doesn't make the game more fun or chalenging, only teeth grindingly frustrating. Devs do well to know this and avoid creating such stun lock situations.

It is one thing to be oneshot by a large explosion or cool skill that you should have avoided. It is something else entirely to get repeadedly tapped to death and not be able to do anything about it. You just sit there at your keyboard helplessly watching your HP bar go down as if it was just a timer to your upcomming death.

Edited March 28, 2013 by Splosions

[Ronyn]

The fear of stun lock teaches a Tenno three things; Be aware of your surroundings, be aware what enemy to dispatch with haste, be aware of what abilities you can use to counter it.

Mak Tzu - The Art of Warframe.

Correction-The fear of the damage one can suffer during a stun lock teaches a Tenno three things; Be aware of your surroundings, be aware what enemy to dispatch with haste, be aware of what abilities you can use to counter it.

A lot of ways the enemy could harm us will teach us those same things.

You have not provided a reason why stun lock in particular is the right choice.

Take ninja gaiden for example-If certain enemies knock you down they can activate a ground attack that is devestating to you.

After this devestating attack you are knocked clear and can get up.

Thatground attack is a very scary thing so one tries very hard not to get knocked down. In the event that you are knocked down you try very hard to get back up quickly so the enemies cannot get you with this attack.

Same lesson learned, far less time without player control.

There are too many ways to avoid getting stun lock to call this bad game design.

So any punishment that can be avoided is automatically a good punishment for a games design?

Going back to my fighting game comparison, any of the moves done by your opponent can be avoided but the better games are designed in such a way that if they arent avoided it doesnt create a one sided, "long term" loss of control situation.

My point is simple. Loss of player control is not fun or dynamic.

With all of the options a developer can use there is no reason why loss of control has to exist for a player to have to apply tactics and quick reflexes.

[MJ12]

I see Mak_Gohae is still avoiding the core issue that I so kindly made obvious by comparing it with random one-hit-kills-that dying from stunlock balls or whatever is approximately as fun and takes about as long as the death penalty. Actually worse. Because if they just instantly killed you they wouldn't waste my time showing me the stagger animation.

But hey, let's just be smug about how other players are having trouble with a terrible game mechanic so we can feel better about ourselves. Like my pre-edit post said, "toxic customer".

Also sure you can "use abilities" or dodge. With zero margin of error. That's the entire point of why stunlock is bad! You don't have the tools to keep the advantage, you make one tiny mistake and poof. Might as well abort the mission.

[shoudra]

Honestly, rollers when they are only 1 or 2 are annoying but managable. However, in a mobile def. mission or kela I might be unlucky but, 4-5 will completely stun lock me in a group until I am dead. Yes, you can aoe them I personally am not asking for big changes just make them a little bigger to make them easier to hit or slow them down a bit so newer players or those who have bad aim have a chance to help team members take them down. Nothing really big or drastic.

Besides, the point of the thread is to add a little more interactivity to your space ninja make them feel more organic and not an old man getting up. I think we forgot about that!

Edited March 28, 2013 by shoudra