The Grineer Are Too Weak By Themselves. I Know, Let's Add Death Traps!

[Rettycombine]

I hate them because they completely ruin the flow of Warframe, i want to be able to slide and shoot and bisect enemies while remaining in a good speed, i don't want to stop every 5 seconds to play "Where's the broken light"

[Artistical]

I'll post this here because it has the "HOT" prefix.

So, I took the time to walk through a level and take screenies of every unfair instance of a trap. At first I didn't even know what caused them, but as soon as I knew, I shook my head in disbelief at how much BS it is.

Ok, let's begin:

First, a barrier trap. But the sensor is nowhere to be seen (the particle effect got in the middle, but it wasn't visible anyways):

http://i.imgur.com/vdxhRGx.jpg?1

I had to get this close to find the sensor:

http://i.imgur.com/o53gMjg.jpg?1

Later on, I got zapped. I did see the lightning come from above and front...

http://i.imgur.com/cMEJkDI.jpg?1

Could it be?

http://i.imgur.com/otccNti.jpg?1

Yup. I had been zapped from an angle I couldn't see the light from.
Then this one. As soon as I got zapped, I stopped moving (I fumbled a bit with the screenshot key, that's why I have no electric
effect):

 

http://i.imgur.com/Yg1mqqL.jpg?1

 

If you look to the left of the circular window near the middle, you can barely see the light fixture. Here it is:

http://i.imgur.com/FuPKrXc.jpg?1

Then this beauty. You can see the sensor...

 

http://i.imgur.com/kP0RRYb.jpg?1

 

...but it can't be shot...

 

http://i.imgur.com/nAtBAKX.jpg?1

 

...unless your crosshair is in a very specific place.

 

http://i.imgur.com/FQzv8EE.jpg?1

 

And finally, this one. Here, you can see I'm zapped (didn't fumble this time :D)

http://i.imgur.com/aY5hvAS.jpg?1

The light, as it turns out, was on the OTHER SIDE of the archway (if you look closely to the minimap, you can see it)

http://i.imgur.com/Keyqu9Y.jpg?1

So, there's that. Those are lightning traps that are absolutely and completely unavoidable. And that is not counting the one where, in the module with a cylindrical room in the middle and four doors around it, I jumped inside and got insta-killed by four lightning traps inside. As for the barriers, it almost turns them into a very cheap puzzle of "guessing the pixel" to kill the sensor. Breaks the speed of the game, and therefore, makes it less fun. Is not good to walk around having to stop every step to perfectly aim at the sensor, or getting downed by lightning traps that are impossible to evade. I did this run with a purposefully weak frame, Excalibur, level 20, with Vitality only. As you can see on the screenshots, the health slowly goes down. This happened on Earth, a level 10-15 system, where a Mag or a Loki is going to get their asses handed to them if they try anything, even more so without a Sentinel to refill their shields. So, yeah DE, fix this please :)

 

P.S. Sorry for links, don't know how to insert images in the forum...

[Nachino]

Broken lights could get their damage reduced or drain shields instead (Like laser doors) and the amount of lights per room should be reduced.

The sensor doors are okay i guess since they are easy to spot, but unlike cameras there`s no way to avoid the effects on energy when you walk through, you can only destroy the sensors maybe they could act like cameras, they activate the door trap when detected.

[ScorpDK]

15-20 damage on shields sounds more than enough for a LIGHT. It's not like we wandered into a room with electrified flooring meant to kill trespassers, but a bad case of Grineer maintenance that, strangely enough, does NOT affect them at all (even if their own doors kill them).

[Xyana]

Firstly, MOST IMPORTANTLY, Galleons are the tileset for Mercury. The idea that newbies are facing this is painful. I'm finding them a bit overwhelming and I've got tricked out gear. I do not want to imagine what baby excals suffer when they hit these--they do more damage to me than excal has health+shields below r12.

This. One thousands times this. Had this been in place when I first started, I'd have thought twice about even continuing to play Warframe. I feel it will discourage new players from continuing on with their adventures in the game. No one likes constantly dying, especially when new to a game. I feel it gives the wrong impression to a new player on how the game will go for the rest of the time they play. New players need to be encouraged to continue, not to leave. 

Edited March 8, 2014 by Xyana

[Nachino]

Loki MastPSSUU...(Dead) BROKEN LIGHT BULB MASTER RACE!

[Llyssa]

Fun stuff: Tonight I tried a nightmare alert, twice. First time, before reaching the core's blue ring to activate the waves, I was killed by a single broken light, INSTANTLY, with an r30 frame. I just left, and restarted.

 

Second time, I brought a clannie and some taxi n00bs. We heard an electric sizzle during the loading screen, and loaded in DEAD.

 

That's right, we were all killed by a broken light before the mission even started.

 

Whiskey

Tango

Foxtrot.

[ZetaplusC2]

hah maybe this is the endgame content they were talking about. the damage seems to scale with level be it mission or player, if some people are getting hit 10 and others 800. this must be a way for DE to make old players leave and pave the path for second generation players. because god damn it im not touching the galleon until these are removed. (ive been hit nearly 1k)

[Hyunsai]

Oh wow, they seriously intend this to be in Mercury ?

 

I agree with the posters above, and encountered many unavoidable energy door traps. I don't do this tileset anymore unless I ve got Rhino.

 

Well, perhaps it's the goal, 3 or 4 Rhinos per team in this new tileset ? It's almost already the case, so keep on the good balance job, DE !

[Lukedu_]

Grineer can mantain barrier doors that are more effective than the high-tech laser doors from the Corpus, but can't fix lights (that for some reason only target their enemies).

[LordMidnightX]

yah it is stupid, also the door thingys can't be shot and destroyed with stugg 

[Acherontic_]

This is becoming a massive problem, for someone who plays loki a lot, its absurd that I have to sacrifice aspects of a good invisibility build, JUST to put on a mod like redirection so I dont get insta-killed by lights, it makes soloing literally impossible, especially for a frame like Loki, with under 300 shields and health, and is focused on moving fast! now, moving fast only gets you killed faster, as you have a higher chance of hitting multiple lights in quick succesion.

 

AND GOD HAVE MERCY ON YOUR SOUL IF YOU GET HIT BY A LIGHT WHILE FIGHTING EVISCERATORS OR HEAVY GUNNERS

 

I am deeply saddened that I can hardly play a grineer mission that isn't earth with my favorite frame, for fear of being one shot by a damaged lightbulb,

 

Lets also take into consideration that we are highly advanced, skilled, and all powerful cyborg space ninjas, and we can be insta-killed by a lightbulb.

[psyanide]

Just the... idea... the concept... 

 

It's like whoever is coming up with concepts at DE just pulls this kind of crap out of their thumb while stoned. 

 

- Awhile ago, it was the Corpus/Grineer able to cut off the oxygen supply to the surface of a planet. 

 

- As an add on to that, the fact that the Infested were trying to 'choke you out' in the same manner???

 

- Project Tethra - We are stealing Vay Hek's cores, essential to his plans, in order to destroy them. Grineer response? DESTROY THE CORE BEFORE THEY DO!!! I mean, getting the item jacked is not enough, they plan on blowing up themselves and the entire installation, rather than letting us do it, quite neatly out in space, 5 minutes later. Could have easily side stepped this stupidity by having us, the Tenno, taking the Cores for our own purposes in the future. I mean, we retro-engineer and adapt their weaponry and Detonite tech already, would stealing more of their tech for our own use have been such a massive stretch of the imagination?

 

- Bullets can make you bleed, even if they never touch you! (Bleed Proc through Shields, for those wondering)

 

- Broken electrical lights are so amped up and high voltage that they can arc out and kill you at 20 paces. Not only that, but they have a badass, hard coded friend/foe recognition system that allows Grineer to pass by unharmed... THEY ARE BROKEN LIGHTS FFS!!! Not turrets, not automated defenses - just broken, farking, light fixtures. Why in the hell are they THE most dangerous thing in the game? 

 

You have such good concepts for death traps and hazards in the Derelicts. Why not continue the trend? Hazards that turn on and off, highly visible and avoidable hazards that restrict movement/traversal choices. 

What you have done is turned all the Grineer Galleons into minefields, with the most insulting bit being that we are being soundly beaten by shoddy maintenance. 

Edited March 11, 2014 by psyanide

[Countess_Hapmuhr]

I have absolutely no problems with the new Grineer doors, at this point I definitely like them over the Corpus doors since they're easier to turn off while keeping momentum. I think the corpus doors need to be reworked in a similar manner since right now, having to shoot out three cameras is just tedious.

 

The LIGHTS though, I'm sorry DE for the harsh words, but they're absolutely absysmal. I don't understand the motivation for them right now since they're an annoyance that can't be avoided, does huge amounts of damage and that only affects you. It's the worst possible implementation of an environmental hazard yet.

 

My suggestion for rebalancing them would the following:

 

- They need to be visible, telegraph them to the player with both sound and graphics

- Also, having a light shoot only once is unrealistic, shooting them out should be the option to disable them.

- Less is more, keep them limited to a few per mission

- Fairness, it needs to hit everyone, even if it doesn't hit the enemy as hard as it hits you.

- Remove the blinding light, go back and buff Disruptors instead, they make more sense as being disruptive visually. (which right now, they aren't)

 

Edit:

 

Also, a gameplay statement: With these lights, it feels like navigating the claymore minefield without a mine detector. And yes, that part REALLY sucked in Metal Gear 1 for the NES. (but once you find the detector.....)

Edited March 11, 2014 by Hap-muhr

[virgatetomb]

It'd be a real shame if a scorpion was to drag you into a room full of lights.

[Llyssa]

As for corpus doors: You can do a quick slide to avoid them completely as any frame, most movement skills send you through them unharmed, and putting a molt or a decoy in them allows for safe passage--there's actually non-combat methods of avoidance. Grineer doors do not have this.

 

Further, corpus doors won't light up if no one is detected by a camera, so being invisible or choosing your pathing well fixes it. More over, they're bright green bars on a map set that NEVER uses bright green lighting. Lastly, if you *fail* to avoid a corpus door, you aren't screwed for the rest of the mission, just knocked down and deshielded for a few seconds.

 

Compared with unavoidable, always on, color-matching grineer doors that give permanent setbacks, it's a bit of a bad joke.

 

Oh, and on a technical note: All of these traps DO show up on a codex scanner. So if you don't mind walking along very slowly with a scanner in hand, you have a "detector" option.

[AuroraSonicBoom]

maybe they could act like cameras, they activate the door trap when detected.

 

But then their effectiveness of punishing rushers, which - let's be honest - is the main purpose of the mechanic, would be severely impacted.

 

Personally I love the new mechanic because it's very effective in slowing down coptering/rushing(for the most part) while allowing players moving at normal speeds to deal with the traps or take they can't reach a light or get too close without recognizing the lightning sparks.

 

The only thing I'd improve upon are scaling the damage if possible to hit players for a percentage of their shields/health instead of a fixed number to not encourage choosing tanky frames further and making the sparks slightly more noticeable, both visually and auditive. Better visual and audio cues would also help new players, drawing their attention to these lights without reducing the effectiveness of them slowing down rushers.

 

Oh, almost forgot. If there are enough resources in your department to implement this, I'd think about generating a side branch somewhere within the first third of the map tree that is about 3 or so tiles long with a special control room at the end players can hack to turn off the power, neutralizing all of those light traps and security doors. The time it takes to get to the room though has to be equal or slightly higher than rushing through the map. If it's just a console on the main path that needs to be hacked it would again impact the purpose of those traps severely.

Edited March 11, 2014 by AuroraSonicBoom

[Llyssa]

-snip-

The thing is, the best way I've found to deal with them is to have a random pug and just stay back a room or two, letting them get killed and de-energized and whatever else. It's not discouraging rushing, it's discouraging teamplay. SO much easier to just let them lemming into this crap and then wander in to whatever's left. Also, great reason to bring a rhino or valk in your party: just instruct them to run full speed through the level, and they'll take care of all of the traps for you!

 

Let me repeat that, more simply put: I NOW HAVE A REASON TO ENCOURAGE SOMEONE TO BE A RUSHER ON MY TEAM.

 

That is EXACTLY the opposite of what you're saying. If they get killed or whatever, I can go pick them up. I'm sure as hell not going to be in the same room as them to share my chances as deahtrap fodder, and because of how the doors work, they're going to kill them all for me ahead of time.

 

The game should not encourage rushing, nor make players want to encourage rushing, and it DEFINITELY shouldn't make teamwork seem like a bad idea.

 

Battling together, side-by-side, working together to destroy opponents? That's great. That's what we want. Hanging back while everyone else gets light-nuked because it's the smartest move? Not cool at all, but something I find myself doing, rather unintentionally(I'm purposely moving slower to check for traps they may have missed anyway...)

[apcha]

What's wrong with rushing? Life is too short and the warframe missions are too repetitive. and you have to farm for nearly everything missions after missions in this game! If rushing is so bad, ban using the Volt frame first. If the game should not encourage rushing, it should not stress so much on farming in repetitive missions endlessly.

 

And i totally agree with others that the newly added traps are game breaking and annoying. The flash visual effect hurts players' eyes! This time, DE's rushing of those new stuffs is really a bad idea.

Edited March 11, 2014 by apcha

[Xyana]

What's wrong with rushing? Life is too short and the warframe missions are too repetitive. and you have to farm for nearly everything missions after missions in this game! If rushing is so bad, ban using the Volt frame first. If the game should not encourage rushing, it should not stress so much on farming in repetitive missions endlessly.

 

And i totally agree with others that the newly added traps are game breaking and annoying. The flash visual effect hurts players' eyes! This time, DE's rushing of those new stuffs is really a bad idea.

I don't really understand the big deal with rushing either. If you don't want to rush a mission, solo it or go with friends/clanmates. Really, lets face it, after you've finished the solar chart the only reason to do missions that can be rushed are alerts and farming a boss for whatever you want from it. Survivals and defense missions aren't rushable and if you want to argue "I want to level a new weapon" you're best to go solo a mission anyway. 

Edited March 11, 2014 by Xyana

[Llyssa]

I don't really understand the big deal with rushing either. If you don't want to rush a mission, solo it or go with friends/clanmates. Really, lets face it, after you've finished the solar chart the only reason to do missions that can be rushed are alerts and farming a boss for whatever you want from it. Survivals and defense missions aren't rushable and if you want to argue "I want to level a new weapon" you're best to go solo a mission anyway. 

Actually, to be flat, rushing screws over your ENTIRE TEAM. So, realistically, if you want to rush, YOU should be the one going solo. It's not fair of you to screw up things for everyone else.

[AuroraSonicBoom]

Yeah, I'm sorry but those traps don't encourage rushing. What you think people will resort to requires coordination, something the average pug doesn't possess. If there are three people playing normally and one guy rushing ahead, we have a team of three and a solo player. You're basing your assumptions on the premise that getting rid of those traps is most effective with a rusher in the group, which is wrong. You need someone to take a point that can take the hit or just shoot the things before they go off, both of which don't require coptering to hell and back.

 

Rushers gonna rush either way.

[vomder]

There is nothing wrong with rushing, nor does it create problems for teammates. There is absolutely no reason ever to go through a level like molasses. They need to be improving on the whole movement area of the game because it's to slow as it is now.

 

If DE is so against rushing, just remove all stamina mods, running, sliding, wall running, make all the frames 100% slower and increase enemy counts 1000%

[Llyssa]

There is nothing wrong with rushing, nor does it create problems for teammates. There is absolutely no reason ever to go through a level like molasses. They need to be improving on the whole movement area of the game because it's to slow as it is now.

 

If DE is so against rushing, just remove all stamina mods, running, sliding, wall running, make all the frames 100% slower and increase enemy counts 1000%

Yes, it does. When you enter new rooms, you trigger the spawns of said rooms. If you then LEAVE that room without killing anything, the spawns remain! They take the closest interesting target, which is not the guy running away as fast as he can.

 

That way, the rusher gets maybe a few stray shots fired at him, and his entire team gets to do 3 player mode against an endless sea that's many, many multiple times the size it should be, and in amounts and levels balanced for a team of 4 to be taking one room at a time. They are screwed. Getting swarmed with countless armies when you open a door and dying instantly because of it is being screwed.

 

Rushing screws your team. Period.

[Llyssa]

Yeah, I'm sorry but those traps don't encourage rushing. What you think people will resort to requires coordination, something the average pug doesn't possess. If there are three people playing normally and one guy rushing ahead, we have a team of three and a solo player. You're basing your assumptions on the premise that getting rid of those traps is most effective with a rusher in the group, which is wrong. You need someone to take a point that can take the hit or just shoot the things before they go off, both of which don't require coptering to hell and back.

 

Rushers gonna rush either way.

There's no coordination required to let someone else wander ahead and run into traps for you.