Friend Can't Play Grineer Tile Sets Any More Due To His Epilepsy.

[-HAKUNA-YOUR-TATAS-]

I don't really know which side to take, but do recognize that it should be investigated.  The bright white flash was annoying with Alad V and when I saw it happening on Grustrag Three I was a bit turned off.

 

We have a catch 22 situation here...  

 

I mean...  It's common knowledge that Epilepsy and flashing bright lights don't mix well.  

 

It's also fairly common to see many video games have disclaimers and warnings appearing shortly after launching the game to give proper warning to people with epileptic conditions.

 

On the other hand adding a function to remove those flashing white lights would be an excellent example of a game developing company making special accommodations for players who have epilepsy.  I haven't heard of any company implementing such functions in game.

Edited March 11, 2014 by sushidubya

[Poptartz]

 

 

I'm not finished.

 

I've spent the last half hour scouring epilepsy information websites looking for it's exact relation to video games and I've come up empty handed.

 

Either the major foundations do not consider video games an issue, or something else is going on here.

http://videogameseizures.wordpress.com/

http://www.jems.com/article/patient-care/stimulus-overload-video-game-e

http://www.epilepsyfoundation.org/aboutepilepsy/seizures/photosensitivity/

 

Took me all of 5 minutes.

[Varzy]

Quite the opposite, I assure you.

It's obvious what you were doing, even if you don't get it yourself. People who place logic above all usually miss the glaring issue that logic itself is based off a set of assumptions from which every judgement is measured.

 

What are your assumptions? You've ignored the testimonies of multiple sufferers of epilepsy and repeatedly scrambled to justify your immediate dismissal of an obvious issue. You only investigated after people called you out on your attitude, ie, you had a personal stake in the matter and felt under pressure. Logically you could have just backed away.

 

I'm skeptical of how it's possible for you to come up "empty handed" here, since videogames and epilepsy risks are... obvious to anyone with a cursory understanding of epilepsy -- changing patterns and flashing lights can trigger seizures. Google photosensitive epilepsy, and start listening to the people here talking about their experiences.

[-HAKUNA-YOUR-TATAS-]

Moved to the proper section.

 

Thank you Tulzscha.  I tried to message you, but couldn't get through for some reason via a PM.

[CWJLee]

I've spent the last half hour scouring epilepsy information websites looking for it's exact relation to video games and I've come up empty handed.

 

Either the major foundations do not consider video games an issue, or something else is going on here.

My brother and I have epilepsy as well, but I'm not as serious as OP's friend. I can tell you that there are different types of epilepsy and seriousness. In my experience they can be separated into different 'triggers'. My brother would collapse and have a serious seizure if he don't have enough sleep or being woken up suddenly. In my case very fast flickering lights, those CRT tv to be precise. Epilepsy could be an unpredictable condition.

 

English is not my first language and I didn't really read your original post in detail, so all the argument after that just confuses me. Anyway I think that's what this forum is for, OP got something wants to express, so other people could discuss, and you can see throughout the thread there's people that feel the same way. If more people have same issue or suggestion, DE will hear eventually.

[(PSN)ariaandkia]

http://www.wired.com/politics/security/news/2008/03/epilepsy

http://www.cnn.com/WORLD/9712/17/video.seizures.update/index.html

 

That didn't take long.

[Archistopheles]

http://www.epilepsyfoundation.org/aboutepilepsy/seizures/photosensitivity/

 

Took me all of 5 minutes.

 

You are savant. This is exactly what I was looking for.

 

People who place logic above all usually miss the glaring issue that logic itself is based off a set of assumptions from which every judgement is measured.

 

 

I'm skeptical of how it's possible for you to come up "empty handed" here, since videogames and epilepsy risks are...

 

Well... There you go. I'm just trying to learn and spark a discussion, however, since we got moved to feedback without official response, it seems that my spark has failed to ignite.

 

So... Lets talk more about it!

 

Examples include:

• frequency of the flash (that is, how quickly the light is flashing)
• brightness
• contrast with background lighting
• distance between the viewer and the light source
• wavelength of the light
• whether a person’s eyes are open or closed

The frequency or speed of flashing light that is most likely to cause seizures varies from person to person. Generally, flashing lights most likely to trigger seizures are between the frequency of 5 to 30 flashes per second (Hertz).

The likelihood of such conditions combining to trigger a seizure is small. However, to be safe, photosensitive individuals are advised to keep at a distance from TV screens and to place other lights in the surrounding area to lower the contrast between the brightness on the screen and the background. These conditions protect the viewer and are easy to obtain during TV viewing but not while playing video games or when randomly exposed to strong environmental lights. Therefore, other protective devices or strategies may be needed.

[LoGicMoTion]

You are savant. This is exactly what I was looking for.

 

 

Well... There you go. I'm just trying to learn and spark a discussion, however, since we got moved to feedback without official response, it seems that my spark has failed to ignite.

 

So... Lets talk more about it!

 

Examples include:

• frequency of the flash (that is, how quickly the light is flashing)
• brightness
• contrast with background lighting
• distance between the viewer and the light source
• wavelength of the light
• whether a person’s eyes are open or closed

The frequency or speed of flashing light that is most likely to cause seizures varies from person to person. Generally, flashing lights most likely to trigger seizures are between the frequency of 5 to 30 flashes per second (Hertz).

The likelihood of such conditions combining to trigger a seizure is small. However, to be safe, photosensitive individuals are advised to keep at a distance from TV screens and to place other lights in the surrounding area to lower the contrast between the brightness on the screen and the background. These conditions protect the viewer and are easy to obtain during TV viewing but not while playing video games or when randomly exposed to strong environmental lights. Therefore, other protective devices or strategies may be needed.

CAUTION:

This is coming from a guy that does not have epilepsy.

[(PSN)ariaandkia]

I do hope they deal with this, but DE seems to take their time when it comes to dealing with people with medical conditions. Hell I'm pretty sure they still haven't added that color blind mode they promised like 6 months ago.

 

Being colourblind, and not being able to tell an locked locker from an unlocked locker, is not even close to be as serious as the game causing seizures to some people. I can't speak on behalf of DE, but considering the amount of feedback they cover, it's pretty obvious that they care about the player community, and that they try their best to satisfy players.

 

 

 

What on earth are you on about? That is absolutely irrelevant how people feel. Copy pasting a wiki page doesn't make you right by default.

 

This is an important matter that people can now discuss. A lot of people are already agreeing with OP, which means the issue is a real concern that should be taken into concideration. Again, it does not matter if its him or his friend posting this. The message is the same.

 

Luckily, I play mostly by sound and use sight primarily for reading, but ever since the UI 2.0, I now can't tell when someone is down and needing a revive unless someone tells me.

 

Or maybe if they are in certain parts of my screen, but generally I can't even tell.

 

But being unable to see certain things and being harmed are two different things.

 

Someone mentioned in another thread that the flashing has been lowered.  Is this true?

[Archistopheles]

CAUTION:

This is coming from a guy that does not have epilepsy.

 

Do you have anything else to add?

 

 

Someone mentioned in another thread that the flashing has been lowered.  Is this true?

 

IIRC there was outdoor lightning and flashes that got toned down in a recent hotfix, but that was the PC version.

 

Hotfix 12.4.1

 

CHANGES:

Changed lightning effect in Shipyards to not be so bright and offensive.

Edited March 11, 2014 by Archistopheles

[-HAKUNA-YOUR-TATAS-]

CAUTION:

This is coming from a guy that does not have epilepsy.

 

Dude...  SO WHAT?  I don't have it either, but I care about it.

 

I get it man.  You like this game, but there's a part of it that puts you at a health risk and you're serious about getting the word out.

 

But being overly aggressive and harsh doesn't make anyone's points any more effective.

 

Let's all stick to the topic at hand rather than attack each other.

Edited March 11, 2014 by sushidubya

[taiiat]

CAUTION:

This is coming from a guy that does not have epilepsy.

just because you've never been to the moon doesn't mean that you can' read detailed information recorded on it and have a pretty good knowledgebase on it. 

 

 

it's a shame that Archistopheles got flak when he was effectively doing Digital Extremes' job for them. trying to research the problem so it can be fixed, preferably without complete removal of the content.

[Varzy]

Examples include:

• frequency of the flash (that is, how quickly the light is flashing)
• brightness
• contrast with background lighting
• distance between the viewer and the light source
• wavelength of the light
• whether a person’s eyes are open or closed

The frequency or speed of flashing light that is most likely to cause seizures varies from person to person. Generally, flashing lights most likely to trigger seizures are between the frequency of 5 to 30 flashes per second (Hertz).

The likelihood of such conditions combining to trigger a seizure is small. However, to be safe, photosensitive individuals are advised to keep at a distance from TV screens and to place other lights in the surrounding area to lower the contrast between the brightness on the screen and the background. These conditions protect the viewer and are easy to obtain during TV viewing but not while playing video games or when randomly exposed to strong environmental lights. Therefore, other protective devices or strategies may be needed.

 

Highlighting "These conditions protect the viewer and are easy to obtain during TV viewing but not while playing video games or when randomly exposed to strong environmental lights."

 

That's exactly what OP is talking about -- the flashing lights from the Broken Light trap in the Grineer tileset is affecting people.

 

Yes, only a small percentage of players are affected, but Warframe has tens of thousands of players - even a small percentage amounts to hundreds of people having (stressful and potentially life-threatening) seizures because of this facet of the game.

[Varzy]

Dude...  SO WHAT?  I don't have it either, but I care about it.

 

I get it man.  You like this game, but there's a part of it that puts you at a health risk and you're serious about getting the word out.

 

But being overly aggressive and harsh doesn't make anyone's points any more effective.

 

Let's all stick to the topic at hand rather than attack each other.

 

just because you've never been to the moon doesn't mean that you can' read detailed information recorded on it and have a pretty good knowledgebase on it. 

 

 

it's a shame that Archistopheles got flak when he was effectively doing Digital Extremes' job for them. trying to research the problem so it can be fixed, preferably without complete removal of the content.

In fairness, people who have actually been to the moon -- and therefor done the training and the education and endured grueling space flight and have experienced the lesser gravity and seen the blue marble through their own eyes... should probably be taken more seriously than someone who spent like an hour reading about it on the internet.

 

First-hand sources should be sought before second and third hand ones.

[taiiat]

should probably be taken more seriously than someone who spent like an hour reading about it on the internet.

 

First-hand sources should be sought before second and third hand ones.

then we're waiting for the people that are firsthand to explain their problem, note exactly what factors trigger it or worsen the effect, and what can be done to fix the problem with avoiding complete removal of content as much as possible.

 

'this is bad remove it' is a start, but it's not that helpful.

[DarthRevan84]

He's currently in mod que which prevents him from freely posting on the forums otherwise he wouldn't have asked for help. This is a serious topic that does need to be looked at for the player bases' health.

I highly doubt it would affect the player bases health even if they didnt fix it (which im sure they will) maybe 0.2% or so of the player May suffer from the same problem.

[Archistopheles]

it's a shame that Archistopheles got flak when he was effectively doing Digital Extremes' job for them. trying to research the problem so it can be fixed, preferably without complete removal of the content.

 

Sometimes you gotta break some eggs to get anywhere.

 

 

Highlighting "These conditions protect the viewer and are easy to obtain during TV viewing but not while playing video games or when randomly exposed to strong environmental lights."

 

That's exactly what OP is talking about -- the flashing lights from the Broken Light trap in the Grineer tileset is affecting people.

 

Yes, only a small percentage of players are affected, but Warframe has tens of thousands of players - even a small percentage amounts to hundreds of people having (stressful and potentially life-threatening) seizures because of this facet of the game.

 

All those things already exist in the game <3

 

I'm try desperately to separate the two problems in this thread.

[BloodCarnival]

I just go..."OH WTF!! What was that? How the heck am I suppose to see that?" cause y'know sometimes the sparking lights are on the other side of the door and you can't shoot it or go too close to it or else it'll flash you. So most of the times I just ignore them and start sprinting through doors and get flashed at like celebs appearing at a red carpet or something. I don't see the purpose of those lights either other then to troll you with 1000 suns. I don't know why they react to you either. At first I thought it must have something to with metal and then I thought..."isn't Grineers wearing metallic armors too?" I'm probably off topic but just saying. Woop Dee Doo Dah.

[taiiat]

I don't see the purpose of those lights either other then to troll you with 1000 suns. I don't know why they react to you either.

i don't either. when we were told about them, that sounded neat. broken lights here and there, imperfect lighting, some places would be well lit, others no lighting, some places would have partially working ones.

 

and... then this. not what i envisioned at all.

 

 

I highly doubt it would affect the player bases health even if they didnt fix it

ignoring customers is the fast track to bankruptcy. many Companies have learned this in the past. repeating the same mistakes when we have precedent to learn from seems like a needless waste.

Edited March 11, 2014 by taiiat

[Varzy]

then we're waiting for the people that are firsthand to explain their problem, note exactly what factors trigger it or worsen the effect, and what can be done to fix the problem with avoiding complete removal of content as much as possible.

'this is bad remove it' is a start, but it's not that helpful.

All those things already exist in the game <3

I'm try desperately to separate the two problems in this thread.

I'm lost for words at your willful ignorance. Several people have cited the exact issue, the Broken Lights trap which did not exist already in game. That is exactly what the topic is trying to discuss. They want the sudden, jarring flashing when these traps are triggered to be toned down.

Do you want them to run the games a couple more times, see what precise effects send them into painful migraines or even seizures? Think about what you're asking, honestly.

Edited March 11, 2014 by Varzy

[Archistopheles]

Do you want them to run the games a couple more times, see what precise effects send them into painful migraines or even seizures? Think about what you're asking, honestly.

 

You're being equally outlandish. Why in the world would I want that?

 

I'm trying to get to the core of this discussion, while keeping it alive, and you're poking me like I'm in charge of fixing it!

[Varzy]

You're being equally outlandish. Why in the world would I want that?

 

I'm trying to get to the core of this discussion, while keeping it alive, and you're poking me like I'm in charge of fixing it!

Core of the discussion? From the beginning you've been trying to dismiss this issue entirely. This opinion is a "logical fallacy, an appeal to emotion", thus the point is invalid. That issue is already present in-game and thus can't possibly be a problem <333

 

Don't you realize you're not furthering discussion at all? You're distracting it because you want the last word rather than heed the accounts actually made in this very topic.

 

Sup forums, as you read in the title one of my friends has epilepsy which is affected by the new grineer lights. Currently he is in mod que which means he can't post this himself until a mod gets on but this is a very important subject matter so I figured I'd post it for him.

Currently all grineer tiles with the new lights are unplayable for him due to his epilepsy. He gets horrible migranes which stops him from progressing through the level. The new lights should be looked at ASAP to avoid possible seizures from him and other people afflicted with epilepsy. The last thing we need is someone dropping dead trying to farm for detron.

 

 

^ I have epilepsy myself , so I can understand how he feels. Although I only have a problem when it is numerous lights going off and its dark. 

I have to agree that toning it down a bit would be a large help.

 

 

I agree.

It was a dumb addition to the game.

I literally cant believe they all sat at the office table talking about these lights saying oh wow,

This is a fantastic idea.

NO DE this was a terrible move awful no im not defending on this one

I refuse to play any grineer tileset until this is fixed.

I dont want to be scared to turn a corner in every match i play to trigger my epilepsy and have my room mate find me twitching on the floor.

Come on DE. Jeez

 

 

Your not smart.

No, this needs to be addressed now this isnt emotion

DO YOU REALIZE I CAN DIE FROM THIS FLASH?!

No get off your high horse, your being so ridiculous right now.

 

 

My brother and I have epilepsy as well, but I'm not as serious as OP's friend. I can tell you that there are different types of epilepsy and seriousness. In my experience they can be separated into different 'triggers'. My brother would collapse and have a serious seizure if he don't have enough sleep or being woken up suddenly. In my case very fast flickering lights, those CRT tv to be precise. Epilepsy could be an unpredictable condition.

 

English is not my first language and I didn't really read your original post in detail, so all the argument after that just confuses me. Anyway I think that's what this forum is for, OP got something wants to express, so other people could discuss, and you can see throughout the thread there's people that feel the same way. If more people have same issue or suggestion, DE will hear eventually.

 

The core discussion here is that the broken light traps are harming players. Effects are unpredictable, and range from migraines to potential seizures and death. They need the special effects toned down.

 

There isn't a deep conversation that needs to be made, no truth to uncover. This is just a matter of health and safety for potentially hundreds, maybe thousands, of players.

Edited March 11, 2014 by Varzy

[taiiat]

Do you want them to run the games a couple more times, see what precise effects send them into painful migraines or even seizures? Think about what you're asking, honestly.

think about what you think others are asking, honestly.

 

the fix, is not to just remove everything. so those who have this unfortunate condition, should explain what it is that causes the probem, specifically what causes it. yes, we know that Epilieptics are susceptible to flashes of light. but that doesn't help anything happen faster.

 

if you want a speedy change, do the paper work for Digital Extremes. what is the problem? what's a good way to go about fixing it? are there any other instances that are similar to this that could also be an issue? what are good ways to go about fixing any of them? 

would a smaller, slower transition be more beneficial? a smaller faster one? would a different color help? what about particles instead of a camera effect? what about pulsating glows?

 

there's so many questions that can and should be answered before any change is tackled. the less paperwork Digital Extremes needs to do, the more changes can happen, and the faster they can happen. because the workload can be small enough to fit alongside what the main projects already are.

[Archistopheles]

Core of the discussion? From the beginning you've been trying to dismiss this issue entirely. This opinion is a "logical fallacy, an appeal to emotion", thus the point is invalid. That issue is already present in-game and thus can't possibly be a problem <333

 

Don't you realize you're not furthering discussion at all? You're distracting it because you want the last word rather than heed the accounts actually made in this very topic.

 

The core discussion here is that the broken light traps are harming players. Effects are unpredictable, and range from migraines to potential seizures and death. They need the special effects toned down.

 

There isn't a deep conversation that needs to be made, no truth to uncover. This is just a matter of health and safety for potentially hundreds, maybe thousands, of players.

 

Well now I can't have a discussion with you because you said I had to have the last word...

 

Why in the world would a game company either knowingly add effects that cause epileptic seizures, or knowingly ignore posts concerning effects that cause them?

 

People get sued over that...

 

The community mod even moved it to Feedback! As if it's not a health cocern at all, but rather a player-preference!

 

Oh, the Audacity! We should start a forum-riot and boycott DE until they fix it because some guy told us he his friend was getting migraines!!

Edited March 11, 2014 by Archistopheles

[-HAKUNA-YOUR-TATAS-]

Well now I can't have a discussion with you because you said I had to have the last word...

 

Why in the world would a game company either knowingly add effects that cause epileptic seizures, or knowingly ignore posts concerning effects that cause them?

 

People get sued over that...

 

The community mod even moved it to Feedback! As if it's not a health cocern at all, but rather a player-preference!

 

Oh, the Audacity! We should start a forum-riot and boycott DE until they fix it because some guy told us he his friend was getting migraines!!

My sarcasm radar isn't clear... Lol.

And I'm gonna get logicmotion angry for saying this, but I did PM a mod to have the thread moved from GD. NOT because I wanted it to lose popularity, but because I genuinely feel it's important feedback, which well... Belongs in the feedback section.

Guys... Believe it or not... The feedback forums are tons more important than general discussion. GD is a place for us players to talk about Warframe to each other.

(Archi my reply isn't directly aimed at you. Lol.)