Procs Should Match Your First Mod Slot [Img]

[notionphil]

With the new ELEMENT+STATUS mods, we can create Status builds with a moderate DPS sacrifice. DE is essentially introducing the first viable build diversity options.

 

However the average weapon deals 5 damage types, so there's only a 1/5 chance your desired proc will actually occur even on a 100% status build! Totally defeats the purpose of building for Status, as it gives you no control over anything!

 

In short, instead of finally allowing you to create numerous viable builds for a single weapon* - it's another layer of RNG. Here's how to fix it!

 

*per faction builds don't count, they are forced, not made.

 

Only the first damage slot in each build should proc. (or first 2, if they combine to make a dual element).

*If there is no damage type mod in the first slot, the weapon will randomly proc between all present damage types as it does now.

 

**If you set your weapon to "single proc" in this manner, your Status chance will be cut in half. Why? Because you are trading off the number of procs you get, for absolute control of your proc. Thus, weapons designed with an element, like the Detron (radiation), will always be king of that proc.

 

Example - amazing infographic by ParadoxBomb
 

 

Case A: Electricity is the only element and therefore procs since it is placed in slot 1

 

Case B: Because slot 2 is left empty (or filled with a non-elemental mod) Electricity in slot 1 still procs. Electricity does still combine with Fire to make Radiation. Cold damage remains on it's own, and does not proc.

 

Case C: Electricity and Fire form Radiation and proc. Cold remains on it's own and does not proc.

 

Case D: Puncture damage procs, and Electricity does not proc.

 

 

What are the Benefits of making this change?

 

The benefits of build diversity are an immediate increase in a player's ability to explore/enjoy their arsenal - and a desire to acquire new weapons to create unique builds with. Think of the possibilities. You'd be able to specifically build a gas proc Grakata, an elec proc amphis or an impact proc Bronco Prime!

 

Or, imagine seeing another player with a Soma and actually WONDERING what his build is! Maybe he went single-proc Cold? So many options to try out!

 

The reduced Status value (and lowered DPS from the status mods) will enforce a trade-off so that your new weapon isn't better - it's just different. For the first time, you'd have numerous viable choices in how to build your weapon - without handicapping yourself by using the 'wrong' factional damage types.

 

This is a simple way to give players meaningful build choice and diversity, with built in tradeoffs and with little overhead.

 

Thoughts?

 

 

Potential Concerns and Edits

 

Feedback from Thelonious - With the introduction of single proc builds, it would be important for the same procs to not stack infinitely with itself, and instead over-write itself. Otherwise we'd end up with 10 bleed DoT's on the same target. I'll leave the numbers out of this one, and suffice it to say that it would need review.

 

Further research (and wiki) shows that some procs do not stack, especially DoT's. This is probably fine in that case - especially with the 50% status reduction. Balance tweaks would need consideration post live.

 

Feedback from Thelonious and Solaris11 - It's important that elemental weapons retain an advantage at their specific proc, over normal weapons using a 'single-proc' build. There should also be more tradeoffs for the single proc. This led to the edit below.

 

**Edit - I added the 50% proc chance in single-proc mode to introduce a tradeoff, remove accessibility of chain proc and most importantly keep the distinct advantage of elemental weapons.

Edited March 24, 2014 by notionphil

[Archistopheles]

The physical damage mods would need to be buffed.

[Zerrien]

I think the whole system needs to be redone. Damage 3.0, when?

 

I believe status procs should be based off the % of total damage. So a 100 Impact, 100 Elec weapon would do 50/50. A 100 Impact, 100 Elec, 1 Slash weapon would do a Slash Proc 1/201 procs.

[notionphil]

The physical damage mods would need to be buffed.

 

I just fixed that so hard :D

 

Edit - added option to allow randomization of procs

Edited March 24, 2014 by notionphil

[(PSN)ShadowDancing-]

Yeah, I noticed the status build for Grakata was much much less effective than Tysis because of the even odds of any of the physical procs.  Too bad.  A status Grakata build has so much fun potential ...

[notionphil]

I think the whole system needs to be redone. Damage 3.0, when?

 

I believe status procs should be based off the % of total damage. So a 100 Impact, 100 Elec weapon would do 50/50. A 100 Impact, 100 Elec, 1 Slash weapon would do a Slash Proc 1/201 procs.

 

That will still equate to mostly random, and not give us any choice.

[Tsukinoki]

The only problem with this suggestion is that it cuts down on some usefulness from the proc mods.

I built a Tysis to have 100% proc chance. I had Cold, and then its built in corrosive.

Both of those procs are increadibly useful and I like the fact that either one can proc on a hit.

Further, what your suggestion would do is completely eliminate the chance that of a single element proc.

Say you, like I did, put on Ice Storm onto a weapon with a high proc chance. It is not possible to put the ice element first and enjoy 100% ice procs because it would combine with the other dual status mods needed to get a gaurenteed proc. I would be forced to suffer with either Viral or Magnetic procs 100% of the time and no corrosive or other procs at all.

I think that would be as step back from what we currently have.

EDIT:

Just saw your edit to your post. And with a change like that I can see this working out nicely. Being able to specify "I want only this element to ever proc from this gun" or going "I dont care what procs, let them all have a chance!".

Though it still leaves the problem that you cant force it to proc only cold or only heat, if you want to use the dual mods from the events for the highest chance possible, and that you either lower yoru chance to proc or be forced to only proc dual elements.

Edited March 13, 2014 by Tsukinoki

[LukeAura]

I think it may need a little more thought than that, but it's definitely a good discussion to start. 

You could make a procc slider, and custom tune your procc chances. So you don't have to deny the possibility of your second element, or your physical damage proccs to happen. I doubt that would happen though. A more simpler version would be to just reorder the elements in the UI, throw one to the top and it proccs most often, the rest scale down from there. 

You could make it based off of their damage. The more damage you stack towards one element, the more that element is likely to procc over the others.  

I agree though, if we can't have at least semideterministic proccs the whole procc system doesn't do much good. 
 

[notionphil]

The only problem with this suggestion is that it cuts down on some usefulness from the proc mods.

I built a Tysis to have 100% proc chance. I had Cold, and then its built in corrosive.

Both of those procs are increadibly useful and I like the fact that either one can proc on a hit.

Further, what your suggestion would do is completely eliminate the chance that of a single element proc.

Say you, like I did, put on Ice Storm onto a weapon with a high proc chance. It is not possible to put the ice element first and enjoy 100% ice procs because it would combine with the other dual status mods needed to get a gaurenteed proc. I would be forced to suffer with either Viral or Magnetic procs 100% of the time and no corrosive or other procs at all.

I think that would be as step back from what we currently have.

 

Please read the OP - you can definitely make a single element proc, or have all procs like it does now.

 

You would put ice first, and then hells chamber second, and your weapon would proc ice 100% of the time.

 

OR you want to have cold/corrosive procs, like now? put hells chamber first and the weapon will proc exactly as it does now.

 

EDIT - Ninja'd by Tsukinoki...his comment came before my initial fixes to OP ;)

Edited March 13, 2014 by notionphil

[Tsukinoki]

@notionphil

Please see my edit.

You edited your post as I was typing that and I didn't see it.

It still has the small issue that you cant put a single element first (like cold) and a dual element later in the build using the dual mods from the events to enjoy the highest proc chances of single elements (namely cold) and instead have to put dual elements first if you want to use the event mods to get a decent status chance.

That is just an issue of the current system where the layout of the mods affects the elements though...something that I think should be changed so that order isn't important, but that is neither here nor there.

All in all with that edit your idea is a pretty solid one.

Edited March 13, 2014 by Tsukinoki

[notionphil]

I think it may need a little more thought than that, but it's definitely a good discussion to start. 

You could make a procc slider, and custom tune your procc chances. So you don't have to deny the possibility of your second element, or your physical damage proccs to happen. I doubt that would happen though. A more simpler version would be to just reorder the elements in the UI, throw one to the top and it proccs most often, the rest scale down from there. 

You could make it based off of their damage. The more damage you stack towards one element, the more that element is likely to procc over the others.  

I agree though, if we can't have at least semideterministic proccs the whole procc system doesn't do much good. 

 

 

You know me Luke, I like to keep things as simple as possible :)

 

A slider = new UI elements = prob not gonna happen, even though it would be better.

 

My initial thought was as you suggested, a system where proc chance would equal the mods position in your build. But you know what? We have 3 weapons. 3 procs total is enough, and if you want a random chance at all procs, you can still do that.

 

Sometimes less is more.

[LukeAura]

@notionphil

Please see my edit.

You edited your post as I was typing that and I didn't see it.

It still has the small issue that you cant put a single element first (like cold) and a dual element later in the build using the dual mods from the events to enjoy the highest proc chances of single elements (namely cold) and instead have to put dual elements first if you want to use the event mods to get a decent status chance.

That is just an issue of the current system where the layout of the mods affects the elements though...something that I think should be changed so that order isn't important, but that is neither here nor there.

All in all with that edit your idea is a pretty solid one.

I think his idea is based on the assumption we will be getting element mods for heat and cold damage just like the recent event ones.

Yeah I know you Notion(Know you, Notion. That was weird to say in my head). ;)

Simple is very important but I'm not sure this can be simple and reach the level of effectiveness needed to overcome dps builds. Occam's Razor I battle thee again.

Edited March 13, 2014 by LukeAura

[notionphil]

@notionphil

Please see my edit.

You edited your post as I was typing that and I didn't see it.

It still has the small issue that you cant put a single element first (like cold) and a dual element later in the build using the dual mods from the events to enjoy the highest proc chances of single elements (namely cold) and instead have to put dual elements first if you want to use the event mods to get a decent status chance.

 

Understood, and thanks for the feedback.

 

My thoughts are that Forma would allow you to manage almost all use-cases to customize your build. There would be some minor limitations, but this would really open up an entire new dimension in build diversity.

 

What weapon/ele would you build first? :)

[Tsukinoki]

@LukeAura

The issue is that with the Tysis and both event mods you can get 100% proc chance, and are gaurenteed to inflict a status ailment on the enemy.

If I wanted to make it proc cold the best I could do is 80 percent (that's assume a cold/status dual mod). And while that is pretty damn reliable I prefer getting a guarantee of something if I can.

My complaint is really a small nitpick of the way in which elements automatically combine. I would prefer being able to put on, in any order, Cold and heat and poison and go "I want Viral and Heat" or "I want Blast and Poison" without having to change the mods order around.

@notionphil

I would go for a Radiation Tysis build with your system. It would be a decent pocket Nyx at that point, with gaurenteed radiation procs on each shot. And it would be decent against heavy grineer.

Edited March 13, 2014 by Tsukinoki

[notionphil]

@LukeAura

The issue is that with the Tysis and both event mods you can get 100% proc chance, and are gaurenteed to inflict a status ailment on the enemy.

If I wanted to make it proc cold the best I could do is 80 percent (that's assume a cold/status dual mod). And while that is pretty damn reliable I prefer getting a guarantee of something if I can.

My complaint is really a small nitpick of the way in which elements automatically combine. I would prefer being able to put on, in any order, Cold and heat and poison and go "I want Viral and Heat" or "I want Blast and Poison" without having to change the mods order around.

@notionphil

I would go for a Radiation Tysis build with your system. It would be a decent pocket Nyx at that point, with gaurenteed radiation procs on each shot. And it would be decent against heavy grineer.

 

I would absolutely love an electric Grakata....*daydream*

 

I agree with you and Luke that a new UI could better solve this problem, but for purposes of discussion/understanding I will keep the proposal barebones.

[LukeAura]

@LukeAura

The issue is that with the Tysis and both event mods you can get 100% proc chance, and are gaurenteed to inflict a status ailment on the enemy.

If I wanted to make it proc cold the best I could do is 80 percent (that's assume a cold/status dual mod). And while that is pretty damn reliable I prefer getting a guarantee of something if I can.

My complaint is really a small nitpick of the way in which elements automatically combine. I would prefer being able to put on, in any order, Cold and heat and poison and go "I want Viral and Heat" or "I want Blast and Poison" without having to change the mods order around.

Ah I see what you mean now. Basic elements can't reach the full procc. 

A friend of mine had the idea of 'linking' mods together in the mod loadout. Would require nothing more than a tap/double tap and a small line graphic to represent the link, then elements could be combined regardless of priority as long as they sat in an adjacent slot. 

[Zerrien]

That will still equate to mostly random, and not give us any choice.

 

I don't think choice is needed. In the current iteration of Damage 2.0, it's obvious DE wants some randomness to the system. At least make it more predictable. To force 100% of a specific proc isn't... I don't see it being implemented, like that, ever, given how things currently are.

[notionphil]

I don't think choice is needed. In the current iteration of Damage 2.0, it's obvious DE wants some randomness to the system. At least make it more predictable. To force 100% of a specific proc isn't... I don't see it being implemented, like that, ever, given how things currently are.

 

I definitely disagree - choice is sorely needed in WF.

 

We can barely even choose what elements to put in our build, there's simply a right element combo for each faction, with a -75% penalty for having the wrong "choice".

 

This is a simple place to add meaningful choice.

[Tsukinoki]

@notionphil
I understand wanting to keep it barebones and I think that your idea is a very solid and good idea.
Hopefully this will catch DEs eye at some point as this would definately give us more choice, which is very much needed in this game.

[notionphil]

hmm should this thread be in Weapon Feedback?

[LukeAura]

I'm not sure it relates to weapons per se. But the mod system. Which I suppose is an indirect extension of weapons in this case. 
Tough call, might need an official moderator ruling on that. 

[Davoodoo]

I could agree with that idea if it would proc only equipped mods status.

 

You wont proc physical dmg without any mods, but when you put jagged edge you can now proc slash, you put fever strike you can now also proc poison. That way we could still have versatility and be able to choose what procs would happen.

Edited March 14, 2014 by Davoodoo

[Liminal]

I'd give the player the choice of which proc the player wants. Choices = fun :D

[Killerdude8]

They first need to Fix the Status Proc itself.

 

As it is, A pure Corrosive Tysis with 100% Status, does NOT proc corrosive(or anything for that matter) every shot, As it SHOULD be doing.

[notionphil]

I could agree with that idea if it would proc only equipped mods status.

 

You wont proc physical dmg without any mods, but when you put jagged edge you can now proc slash, you put fever strike you can now also proc poison. That way we could still have versatility and be able to choose what procs would happen.

The problem is that we're kind of pigeon-holed into specific builds vs certain factions to make the weapons efficient. You literally lose 75% damage if you're not using the right element. So customization is very limited as to what you can put on your weapon - which is why letting us choose proc is at least some level of customization.

 

If you have to put a jagged edge on your weapon, you're already losing probably 15% dps. Having said that, DE needs to fix physical mods so they stack on base damage*, which would at least lessen the impact of that problem.

 

*FYI - i think no elemental/phys mods should add damage and all should add customization...but that's a post for a different day.

Edited March 14, 2014 by notionphil