Procs Should Match Your First Mod Slot [Img]

[notionphil]

While I like the idea, I'm not sure if you need to limit it to only the first element to pop out.  I think it could be reasonable to allow it to proc more if you had more elements attached.  I know it's less elegant, but a raw toggle could be useful...

 

Raw toggle might be too much control - depending on the implementation, we'd be able to cause duals to proc which aren't even on the weapon.

 

Whats the UI you have in mind, toggling mod slots themselves?

[Volt_Cruelerz]

Raw toggle might be too much control - depending on the implementation, we'd be able to cause duals to proc which aren't even on the weapon.

 

Whats the UI you have in mind, toggling mod slots themselves?

Basically... mouse over a mod and a little slider comes out of it.  Mouse down to it and there'd be a toggle on it.  Maybe other options could be thrown on there as well.

[Varzy]

Just realised that by having the element that procs in the first slot, it means that if there's two or more elements the proc element will never be dealt as actual Damage. Ie, having electric, heat and cold will deal radiation and cold Damage and proc electricity, but it'll never deal electric and blast.

There's two ways to respond to this. First, we leave it be and have it be an inherit sacrifice you make in order to get the proc you want. The second way, have the mod slot that prioritises proc be the last slot on the top row or first in the bottom row, enabling other elemental mods to go either before or after it.

Edited March 19, 2014 by Varzy

[notionphil]

Basically... mouse over a mod and a little slider comes out of it.  Mouse down to it and there'd be a toggle on it.  Maybe other options could be thrown on there as well.

 

I think DE could come up with a clean UX for it....but what about duals proccing that aren't on the weapon?

 

Dual procs are the most powerful.

 

If we allow non-used duals to proc, we're essentially allowing every single element to proc on every build...we've gone from not enough choice to, maybe...too much choice.

[Volt_Cruelerz]

I think DE could come up with a clean UX for it....but what about duals proccing that aren't on the weapon?

 

Dual procs are the most powerful.

 

If we allow non-used duals to proc, we're essentially allowing every single element to proc on every build...we've gone from not enough choice to, maybe...too much choice.

Perhaps.  I'm not terribly strongly attached to the idea.  I just don't think it's necessary to knock out every other proc aside from the first.  I feel like allowing the player to choose would be good.

[notionphil]

Just realised that by having the element that procs in the first slot, it means that if there's two or more elements the proc element will never be dealt as actual Damage. Ie, having electric, heat and cold will deal radiation and cold Damage and proc electricity, but it'll never deal electric and blast.

There's two ways to respond to this. First, we leave it be and have it be an inherit sacrifice you make in order to get the proc you want. The second way, have the mod slot that prioritises proc be the last slot on the top row or first in the bottom row, enabling other elemental mods to go either before or after it.

 

 

As you said...it's a puzzle. :)

 

[elec] [heat] [cold] [----]

 

Proc: Elec

Damage :Radiation, Cold

 

-----------

 

[elec] [----] [toxic] [heat]

[cold]

 

Proc: Elec

Damage: Viral, Blast

 

 

We are assuming 2 dual ele builds, so 4 eles if you want full control of procs

[notionphil]

Perhaps.  I'm not terribly strongly attached to the idea.  I just don't think it's necessary to knock out every other proc aside from the first.  I feel like allowing the player to choose would be good.

 

I actually like the concept of one proc per weapon OR total randomness. We have 3 weapons. It makes the choice more meaningful IMO.

 

I do tend to keep things more simple than some would prefer...but at its core, this idea is about giving us control over procs, hopefully with one proc per weapon, and access to all of our damage types.

[Volt_Cruelerz]

We have 3 weapons. 

I guess that's a fair point.  If you want those other procs, just swap weapons.

[Thelonious]

So basically you want the proc system we had before Damage 2.0? 

 

Did you ever wonder why the physical damage and Proc mechanics were designed in the first place?

Did you ever wonder why the proc rates were so low at first?

Did you ever wonder why ALL the physical weapons in the game have at least 2 physical damage types?

Did you ever wonder why they added physical damage types to the flux rifle? (was only bleed at first)

 

One answer to all those questions: 

 

To avoid having a 100% chance of getting one specific proc. 

 

Because being able to chain stun, chain stagger, chain knockback, chain any CC, or even chain AOE attacks (gas/electric) and chain bleed (old flux) with any weapon is not good design/balance.

They removed the ability for enemies to stunlock/staggerlock us, it's only fair we can't either.

They implemented AOE weapons, it's for you to use them, and not for you to mod your pistol into a rocket launcher (extreme example, but you get the message).

 

And that's what the proc mechanics we have now do. 

 

 

I'm not saying it's perfect, but I have to agree the old proc system was badly easy to exploit:

 - guaranted cold procs made everything you hit weak as a mollusk

 - guaranteed fire and electric procs were free CC.

 

And I'm not saying your idea is bad, but knowing that the proc system was implemented to avoid exactly what you're suggesting, I can only say, the most politely possible:

 

Not gonna happen.

Edited March 19, 2014 by Thelonious

[LukeAura]

To avoid having a 100% chance of getting one specific proc. 

As long as they don't mess with the numbers of procc chance. It wouldn't.

This doesn't dictate total frequency of what proccs. But what proccs only when a procc happens.

If I have 100% electric procc geared Soma. 

It's only hitting 7% of its shots as that procc. 

And the AoE weapons are vastly more effective at their AoE powers than the proccs would ever be.

[notionphil]

So basically you want the proc system we had before Damage 2.0? 

 

Did you ever wonder why the physical damage and Proc mechanics were designed in the first place?

Did you ever wonder why the proc rates were so low at first?

Did you ever wonder why ALL the weapons in the game have at least 2 physical damage types?

Did you ever wonder why they added physical damage types to the flux rifle? (was only bleed at first)

 

One answer to all those questions: 

 

To avoid a 100% chance of getting one specific proc. 

 

Because being able to chain stun, chain stagger, chain knockback, chain any CC, or even chain AOE attacks (gas/electric) and chain bleed (old flux) is not good design/balance.

 

Ahem...

 

Castanas, Phage, Lanka, Ignis, Synapse, Dual Ichor, Detron, Tysis, Stug, Prova, Lecta, Acrid,Torid, Scoliac...All have a 100% chance of getting one specific proc.

 

Some even proc the more powerful Dual elements. Pretty sure DE is not afraid of single proc weapons.

 

The answers to all of your questions is: the current proc system is a work in progress which is why we're getting new +60% status mods that also have DPS.

Edited March 19, 2014 by notionphil

[Tsukinoki]

@Thelonious

And then you're argument kinda falls apart when you get a corrosive modded tysis with additional cold or blast and 100% proc chance.

With that setup, depending on the damage you are dealing per element, its quite common to go through an entire mission and proc blast on every single enemy in the level and keeping them all CCed and on the floor.

And if they aren't knocked down their armor is reduced.

How is that really any different?

I can also just mod it with corrosive and get 100% corrosive shots.

EVERY single shot will reduce enemy and boss armor till they have none left.

Thats basically damage 1.0 with how it handled elements....

Thats a 100% gaurentee of a single proc on every single shot that I fire. And with multishot that is a guaranteed 2, and maybe even 3, corrosive procs per target per trigger pull.

So you're argument doesn't really hold up all that well...

And giving players choices and control over their weapons is rarely, if ever, a bad thing.

Edited March 19, 2014 by Tsukinoki

[Varzy]

So basically you want the proc system we had before Damage 2.0? 

 

Proc system before guaranteed multiple procs. You had electrocuted, frozen enemies on fire. Didn't make sense. This is proposing to nerf your damage output (with the status+elemental event mods, etc) to increase the chance of getting a proc, and when a proc happens it's either a specific one or the current setup of a random from a list of 5.

[Thelonious]

Ahem...

 

Castanas, Phage, Lanka, Ignis, Synapse, Dual Ichor, Detron, Tysis, Stug, Prova, Lecta, Acrid,Torid, Scoliac...All have a 100% chance of getting one specific proc.

 

 

You misunderstood: I meant literally 100% proc chance  of getting one specific proc. 

As in, you can get one specific proc, and only the one you want, every shot. Even only every other shot is huge, for an automatic weapon. But afaik, you can't atm. 

 

Hypothetically, your suggestion, and all of those dual stat mods, would make it possible with most weapons in the game.

 

 

@Thelonious

And then you're argument kinda falls apart when you get a corrosive modded tysis with additional cold or blast and 100% proc chance.

With that setup, depending on the damage you are dealing per element, its quite common to go through an entire mission and proc blast on every single enemy in the level and keeping them all CCed and on the floor.

And if they aren't knocked down their armor is reduced.

How is that really any different?

I can also just mod it with corrosive and get 100% corrosive shots.

EVERY single shot will reduce enemy and boss armor till they have none left.

Thats basically damage 1.0 with how it handled elements....

Thats a 100% gaurentee of a single proc on every single shot that I fire. And with multishot that is a guaranteed 2, and maybe even 3, corrosive procs per target per trigger pull.

So you're argument doesn't really hold up all that well...

And giving players choices and control over their weapons is rarely, if ever, a bad thing.

 

Yes, but as I explained above, you can't get the one you want. you get procs every shot yes, but not always blast for example. There is still a (minimal, I agree) trade-off in equiping multiple elemental damage mods.

I will add that Tysis is kinda the exception to the rule: it's a weapon designed around procs. But imo, fairly balanced in the fact that it deals less damage/dps than other guns. You trade raw damage for procs: a utility weapon. A bit like the Grataka now. 

 

The problem is when you're able to do the same as Tysis (like chain blasting a group of enemies) with ANY weapon in the game. Well, almost all of them, you still need a minimum base status chance.

What's the point of Tysis then? Or any new proc weapon released, if any?

 

I'm just suggesting that the randomness of procs may be a necessary evil to insure firearms in general are balanced against each other, and even against warframe CC abilities.

I may be wrong, time will tell.

 

I wouldn't be surprised if DE's sense of balance screwed up everything completly.

I mean, 60% proc chance on a mod when the normal mods give only 10-15%. Jeez.

Proc chance could become their new base for Power Creep...

Edited March 19, 2014 by Thelonious

[notionphil]

You misunderstood: I meant literally 100% proc chance  of getting one specific proc. 

As in, you can get one specific proc, and only the one you want, every shot.

 

Hypothetically, your suggestion, and all of those dual stat mods, would make it possible with most weapons in the game.

 

Right, and what is your evidence that DE doesn't want that, or finds it too powerful? That was your point; but I see nothing to support it.

 

The Phage, for example, arguably the game's highest DPS weapon, can be easily built to proc Viral 100% of the time that it procs. It can also be built to proc nearly 100% of the time once the new mods are all out.

 

Why do you think DE is hesitant to allow other weapons to do that? Clearly, if they found single elemental procs too powerful, they wouldn't already have made it possible, with the strongest Proc, an incredibly powerful weapon.

 

EDIT - OK i see you are talking about 1 proc, 100% of the time. The Tysis can do that, again no reason to think DE doesn't want that.

 

The problem is when you're able to do the same as Tysis (like chain blasting a group of enemies) with ANY weapon in the game. Well, almost all of them, you still need a minimum base status chance.

What's the point of Tysis then? Or any new proc weapon released, if any?

 

The point of Tysis (or any high status gun) is that it will actually be able to get to 100% status chance. That's the exact same benefit it has now...but its even better as you'll be able to get the proc you want 100% of the time.

 

I would actually USE my Tysis if this were a thing. The Grakata's status advantage over more damaging guns would actually be a viable differentiation factor.

 

Don't forget, this will never be an option "with any weapon in the game". With an average 10% status gun, you'll lose about 30% DPS for putting all of these 4 ELE+STATUS mods on, and you'll still end up with less than 40% status.

Edited March 19, 2014 by notionphil

[Varzy]

 

Don't forget, on an average status gun (10%), you'll lose about 30% DPS for putting all of these 4 ELE+STATUS mods on, and you'll still end up with less than 40% status.

This is the critical thing to consider. You're limiting your DPS by 30%. Reliably knowing what procs you'll get is the reward here.

 

Damage 1.0 had guarenteed multiple elemental procs in addition to maximised builds. With this idea, it's a decision between reliable single procs or DPS>

Edited March 19, 2014 by Varzy

[DiabolusUrsus]

Alternate suggestion:
Enable double procs of one physical damage type, and one elemental damage type.
Whichever physical damage type makes up the highest proportion of the weapon's damage will proc.
Whichever element is placed first (top left to bottom right) on the mod loadout will proc.
Other damage types will add their multipliers, but never proc. If the gun procs, both the physical and elemental damage type proc.

I know that for the time being this is horribly unbalanced, but it's a rudimentary idea that needs building off of.

[notionphil]

Alternate suggestion:

Enable double procs of one physical damage type, and one elemental damage type.

Whichever physical damage type makes up the highest proportion of the weapon's damage will proc.

Whichever element is placed first (top left to bottom right) on the mod loadout will proc.

Other damage types will add their multipliers, but never proc. If the gun procs, both the physical and elemental damage type proc.

I know that for the time being this is horribly unbalanced, but it's a rudimentary idea that needs building off of.

 

Once DE fixes physical mods, it will work fine with the proposed system. You won't lose DPS by putting on a physical mod, and you could just put it in the first slot.

 

EDIT - if that ever happens, which it may not - bc then we'd be able to stack even more DPS.

 

EDIT2 - solution. DE releases Physical + Status mods that cap at 60% and scale off of base dmg. That way, they can't increase our DPS cap any more than the new element mods, which are already in the ecosystem.

Edited March 19, 2014 by notionphil

[Thelonious]

 

The point of Tysis (or any high status gun) is that it will actually be able to get to 100% status chance. That's the exact same benefit it has now...but its even better?

 

Don't forget, on an average status gun (10%), you'll lose about 30% DPS for putting all of these 4 ELE+STATUS mods on, and you'll still end up with less than 40% status.

 

Isn't the Tysis already able to get 100%? Anyway, I just explained that there is a fairly obvious trade-off for Tysis: it's weaker

And you can factor multishot in your calculation: which pushes the status chance to around 50%.

Which again, is huge for an automatic weapon with a fire rate of 10.

That's like 5 procs per second. 5 of one single proc type per second, with your suggestion.

Imagine: 5 bleeds, or 5 electric procs, or 5 of any proc you chose.

That's just crazy!! I know we all like big numbers, but I hardly see how it can be considered a dps loss.

And balancing weapons with that in mind. Ooooh the nightmare.

 

Not to mention that in the comparaison, you're only considering a weapon forma'ed multiple types, that can equip ALL the rainbow of normal elemental mods. And since those dual mods are way cheaper, most players actually gain dps with those mods, without having to forma the sh*t out of their weapons. 

You do get a dps loss inevitably, but certainly not 30% for the average player. 

 

This is the critical thing to consider. You're limiting your DPS by 30%. Reliably knowing what procs you'll get is the reward here.

 

Damage 1.0 had guarenteed multiple elemental procs in addition to maximised builds. With this idea, it's a decision between reliable single procs or DPS>

 

That's the thing with the actual proc mechanics already.

The more elemental mods you equip, the more damage you do, but the less chance you have to get one specific proc. Balanced. Somehow.

[Varzy]

That's the thing with the actual proc mechanics already.

The more elemental mods you equip, the more damage you do, but the less chance you have to get one specific proc. Balanced. Somehow.

Right. The higher the damage, the less chance you get to have any specific proc. But the opposite isn't true outside of elemental weapons designed for high proc.

 

What this topic suggests is to add another layer onto the existing system, letting you nerf your damage in order to get a specific proc. Gives players more diversity and options in modding.

[notionphil]

Isn't the Tysis already able to get 100%? Anyway, I just explained that there is a fairly obvious trade-off for Tysis: it's weaker

And you can factor multishot in your calculation: which pushes the status chance to around 50%.

Which again, is huge for an automatic weapon with a fire rate of 10.

That's like 5 procs per second. 5 of one single proc type per second, with your suggestion.

Imagine: 5 bleeds, or 5 electric procs, or 5 of any proc you chose.

That's just crazy!! I know we all like big numbers, but I hardly see how it can be considered a dps loss.

And balancing weapons with that in mind. Ooooh the nightmare.

 

 

Firstly, just to be clear I'm not trying to bash on you. I appreciate your feedback, which will help remove any potential flaws from the concept.

 

1) Most of the points you are making are related to status chance in general. They will still happen regardless if we are able to choose our proc.

 

 

2) The most important thing to remember is, with the exception of Viral, all of the other procs have a similar overall power. Bleed is about as useful as Blast, which is about as useful as Elec...you get the idea.

 

Giving players the ability to proc [elec, elec, elec] instead of [elec, bleed, gas] is not going to suddenly make them OP. It will however make them happy, and give them a meaningful choice.

 

 

3) As Volt_Cruelerz said to me in PM, "the most powerful status of all is dead". Think about that.

 

Making enemies dead is very, very easy once you get a Soma/Ogris/Penta etc. All of the blast procs in the world [with~30% less DPS] probably won't make it any easier - but it will make it more fun.

 

 

4) If Procs currently stack, making them not stack/stack less would be a good idea. If anything their duration should reset. I have seen Bleed overwritten for example.

 

In fact, that would make [elec, elec, elec] less DPS effective than [elec, bleed, gas], but still give us 900x more control and more fun. That is what this idea is about, not trying to get more DEEPS.

 

note - also remember status % is not accurate, a 40% grakata (which is my one of my main weapons) procs about 15% of the time. We won't see a normal weapon chain stunning a crowd indefinitely, even with this change.

Edited March 19, 2014 by notionphil

[Thelonious]

-snip-

 

That's the issue here phil. 

Being able to chose our procs like you suggested could (and would in most cases) largely increase our dps.

 

I'm sorry, but when I read your OP and see example B, that's just Radiation+Cold damage (already great against high level grineer by itself), with CC and aoe damage on top.

 

That's a tad too much don't you think? 

Edited March 19, 2014 by Thelonious

[notionphil]

That's the issue here phil. 

Being able to chose our procs like you suggested could (and would in most cases) largely increase our dps.

 

I'm sorry, but when I read your OP and see example B, that's just Radiation+Cold damage (already great against high level grineer by itself), with CC and aoe damage on top.

 

That's a tad too much don't you think? 

 

You are imagining a fantasy example where a Soma has a 100% elec proc. Yes, that would be OP. No, that's not what will really happen in game.

 

 

 

1) Most guns will still have low status chance even after these mods

 

Remember most guns will still have an actual-in-game proc rate* of around 15%-20% with the status mods on.

 

*The status screen proc is not correct, in game research indicates it's about 2x inflated. Please go test it yourself in game (with anything other than Tysis).

 

 

 

2) Low or Avg Status guns will lose DPS, because they rarely proc - and most guns have low/avg status.

 

Letting us choose the effect of 1.5/10 of our shots, at the cost of ~30% of our DPS is not going to boost DPS.

 

Take a Boltor Prime, with 10% status, throw all these mods on it for 34%. It will actually proc about 16%.

 

You've lost 3.4K damage per second and 500 damage per shot, just to get to ~15% in-game-proc.

 

Now, please explain how being able to have 2 of every 10 shots proc the element you want (say elec) is going to get that 3.4k damage per second back, and then add to it.

 

 

 

3) What about high status weapons? Will they become OP?

 

Yes, high status weapons might possibly get higher DPS than they do currently, but still nowhere near the DPS of the standard guns that are far more commonly used [soma/penta/ogris/phage/etc/etc].

 

Even when all 4 status mods are out, there are only a few weapons which will have an on-paper 100% proc rate - tysis, magnus, grakata, grinlok, etc. They are all relatively weak.

 

So yes, Tysis might(or might not) get a jump from 6k to 8k, or even 9k (don't forget its base is now 4.5K, down from 6k)! Watch out Vasto(10K)!

 

Are you worried that akmagnus(13kDPS, 10K after these mods) is going to start outdamaging the Brakk(30kDPS)?

Edited March 19, 2014 by notionphil

[Varzy]

Also, not really sure what's bad in giving weapons a DPS buff in this way. If anything it'd improve weapon balance by giving lower DPS weapons an extra boost in viability through Cc and extra damage while Soma/Brakk/etc benefit relatively less.

Edited March 19, 2014 by Varzy

[notionphil]

Also, not really sure what's bad in giving weapons a DPS buff in this way. If anything it'd improve weapon balance by giving lower DPS weapons an extra boost in viability through Cc and extra damage while Soma/Brakk/etc benefit relatively less.

 

exactly. Most mid/high weapons would lose DPS by taking a status build bc the procs are so infrequent.

 

Low DPS high status ones could theoretically get a boost, but even so they won't even get near the top-tier.

Edited March 19, 2014 by notionphil