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Procs Should Match Your First Mod Slot [Img]


notionphil
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@notionphil

Have you been host or client when testing?

I've only tested it single player or when hosting in a group, but a 100% proc chance corrosive tysis with 150% multishot has procced corrosive for every single shot. I see the corrosive icon pop up next to all damage numbers and the corrosive effect plays over the enemies every time. Out of 210 trigger pulls each one procced corrosive 2 to 3 times.

 

I have been hosting every time - however, I have been doing my testing with less than 100%. Obviously that adds randomness, and I could just be on a bad-streak :)

 

However, I'm noticing numbers which appear to be quite far off of the mark when dealing with 30-40% status....it seems to proc more like 10-20% of the time. It's quite possible that 100% is coded to differently than lower values - have you done any lower status testing?

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@notionphil

I'll do some more testing at lower chances later today when I am able to, but when I was testing it around 50% I was getting on average 1 proc per trigger pull, which is to be expected. I will need to do more testing at various levels of proc chances, but I was referring both to you and the post you quoted because I have verified that 100% proc chance works as stated.

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Could kill any enemy by just blasting them with the bleed tysis, regardless of their various armors and invincibilities.

 

No need to ignore mechanics if you'd like to kill enemies - just use any of the guns that already do 3x to 10x as much damage and are used by an overwhelming portion of the player base.

 

13K DPS+ tends to 'ignore' shields pretty quickly as well!

 

 

Still not sure why you think making all builds do the same thing would encourage diversity

 

Your slash build is the perfect example of this one.

 

You make a slash tysis bc you'd like to 'avoid gameplay mechanics'

 

I'll make a heat tysis becuase I like to watch crewmen dance

 

he'll make a radiation tysis because he wants to see his enemies turn on their friends

 

she'll make a cold tysis to watch grineer do the robot in slow motion...

 

they'll make a corrossive tysis to get a 100% proc rate instead of the 50% we all have

 

Then we all get together and have a tysis party (or a various soma build party, etc)

 

(Some other guy will still be using Soma/Penta/Ogris/Brakk/Boltor P full DPS build - because he'd like to kill more efficiently than all of the above, but he's not invited to our party)

Edited by notionphil
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Your slash tysis is the perfect example of this one. You make a slash tysis, I'll make a heat tysis, he'll make a radiation tysis, she'll make a cold tysis! It's a tysis party!

But it's not more diversity, because every single tysis with a slash in the first slot will do the same thing, and then it's just a matter of what things give the most damage buff.

 

It effectively reduces the number of builds to 13(one per d-type). You put your thing in the slot, and then just chuck on all the best/most-efficient damage multipliers you own. That means all builds would be identical except for a single slot, the first one. =/

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But it's not more diversity, because every single tysis with a slash in the first slot will do the same thing, and then it's just a matter of what things give the most damage buff.

 

It effectively reduces the number of builds to 13(one per d-type). You put your thing in the slot, and then just chuck on all the best/most-efficient damage multipliers you own. That means all builds would be identical except for a single slot, the first one. =/

 

Oh don't be so literal :)

 

Build diversity* = the player's ability to impact his weapon's effect on gameplay

 

*[via the abridged WF dictionary that I just made up]

 

Tysis non-withstanding, lets not pretend most people are currently building their ogris/penta/soma/brakk towards a 1/3 chance at a 1/5 chance of their desired status proc. They're doing exactly what you're saying - building for damage vs faction because that's the only thing worth building towards now.

 

Using the 'wrong' elemental type is simply too harsh of a DPS penalty to counter a random chance at a random proc.

 

Single-proc allows you to build towards other things besides DPS - sure, you can build a pure DPS Soma to be the best killing machine. Or you can build a less efficient but more fun Gas Soma. Or a considerably more noisy and show Elec Soma.

 

Options my friend, options which are currently and sorely lacking.

Edited by notionphil
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But what if instead of one combined element (or 2 in the case of some rainbow builds, like Viral/Radiation for Grineer) good against one specific faction, you had 3?

 

Or if you could just put one combined element and not have Rainbow builds at all. But multiple choices for the single element that you can put with. 

And even a free slot for say, physical damage, pure utility, or another faction-specific mod (i.e bane mods)

 

Or both at the same time. You can put one combined element among a choice of 3, plus the multiple choices of single elements that goes with (2 per combined element, that makes 6 choices per faction), plus the choice of one Physical mod according to your weapon and/or the faction you're facing.

 

More than that, it also does affect procs through the choice of elements. You still won't have full control over procs, but you chose them according to personal choice (rather defensive or offensive, CC's or damage procs), and every one of them matters.

 

In most cases, you wouldn't even lose any dps.

 

What do you think?

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But what if instead of one combined element (or 2 in the case of some rainbow builds, like Viral/Radiation for Grineer) good against one specific faction, you had 3?

 

Or if you could just put one combined element and not have Rainbow builds at all. But multiple choices for the single element that you can put with. 

And even a free slot for say, physical damage, pure utility, or another faction-specific mod (i.e bane mods)

 

Or both at the same time. You can put one combined element among a choice of 3, plus the multiple choices of single elements that goes with (2 per combined element, that makes 6 choices per faction), plus the choice of one Physical mod according to your weapon and/or the faction you're facing.

 

More than that, it also does affect procs through the choice of elements. You still won't have full control over procs, but you chose them according to personal choice (rather defensive or offensive, CC's or damage procs), and every one of them matters.

 

In most cases, you wouldn't even lose any dps.

 

What do you think?

 

I would love a drastic re-write towards less faction-centric damage types, and will even go ahead and post this old concept An Elegant Damage Solution.

 

If you had:

 

-several elements that were good vs each faction

-Proc was split according to damage dealt

-more ways to manipulate damage dealt (converter mods: "convert X% of phys damage to Y% elemental damage and vice versa)

 

that would be a very attractive solution IMO. However, good luck getting that passed through congress - damage types appear pretty settled at moment.

 

EDIT - it's good to tradeoff some DPS in exchange for either status chance, or proc specificity to force choice. If you want a single (or predictable) proc, you should be giving something meaningful up (like 50% less procs, or some DPS).

Edited by notionphil
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I like the idea overall...

 

While your idea would definitely bring a measure of real diversity, it would basically make those godly high status weapons offer predictable (not a bad thing) status procs, I'm just wondering how those weapons with low status chance percentages would synergize with this system.

Would they become pure DPS weapons at this point or could they be modified.

Maybe a new type of Forma just for Status and/or firing speed and status could be added.

If I'm showing my ignorance, please don't laugh at me too hard. xD

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I like the idea overall...

 

While your idea would definitely bring a measure of real diversity, it would basically make those godly high status weapons offer predictable (not a bad thing) status procs, I'm just wondering how those weapons with low status chance percentages would synergize with this system.

Would they become pure DPS weapons at this point or could they be modified.

Maybe a new type of Forma just for Status and/or firing speed and status could be added.

If I'm showing my ignorance, please don't laugh at me too hard. xD

 

great question.

 

With the new elemental + status mods coming out, even an avg status weapon(10%) can sacrifice up to 30% of its max DPS for a total of 50% status chance. That would be reduced to 25% if you were using single procs, still a viable source of procs but certainly not the constant stream you'd find with high-status or elemental weapons. That is intended.

 

Status is (or should be) a factor in weapon balance, so some weapons with very high DPS/low status such as the Soma will always have a low status and the DPS tradeoff isn't worthwhile.

 

However - weapons like that tend to do so much damage that you'd be using single-procs just for fun anyway.

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I would love a drastic re-write towards less faction-centric damage types, and will even go ahead and post this old concept An Elegant Damage Solution.

 

If you had:

 

-several elements that were good vs each faction

-Proc was split according to damage dealt

-more ways to manipulate damage dealt (converter mods: "convert X% of phys damage to Y% elemental damage and vice versa)

 

that would be a very attractive solution IMO. However, good luck getting that passed through congress - damage types appear pretty settled at moment.

 

EDIT - it's good to tradeoff some DPS in exchange for either status chance, or proc specificity to force choice. If you want a single (or predictable) proc, you should be giving something meaningful up (like 50% less procs, or some DPS).

 

Yes, and I mentionned each of the points you raised in our long discussion here :p

 - Damage table rework, so that several elements are good against each faction

 - The more of one element You have equiped, the better the proc chance of said element [elemental damage]/[total damage]*100 = proc rate 

 - You just have to rework Physical mods so that they work like elemental mods, like before.

 

I still haven't figured why it's not the case already. I know they wanted to keep us from building around AP, but since it doesn't work the same at all, I don't get it. There is probably a good reason for it, but I can't get my head around it. Feel free to enlighten me if you do know.

 

And Steve did mention a potential rework of the table during a recent livestream. We all know there are major flaws in the concept.

Like enemies of a same faction having different resistances/weaknesses. Do they really expect us to have our secondary built to deal with one or 2 specific enemies, and swap weapon each time? I can understand in the void, but anywhere else? 

 

RE to EDIT: there are already the new dual mods for that, and elemental weapons. 

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Yes, and I mentionned each of the points you raised in our long discussion here :p

 - Damage table rework, so that several elements are good against each faction

 - The more of one element You have equiped, the better the proc chance of said element [elemental damage]/[total damage]*100 = proc rate 

 - You just have to rework Physical mods so that they work like elemental mods, like before.

 

I still haven't figured why it's not the case already. I know they wanted to keep us from building around AP, but since it doesn't work the same at all, I don't get it. There is probably a good reason for it, but I can't get my head around it. Feel free to enlighten me if you do know.

 

And Steve did mention a potential rework of the table during a recent livestream. We all know there are major flaws in the concept.

Like enemies of a same faction having different resistances/weaknesses. Do they really expect us to have our secondary built to deal with one or 2 specific enemies, and swap weapon each time? I can understand in the void, but anywhere else? 

 

RE to EDIT: there are already the new dual mods for that, and elemental weapons. 

 

IMO we'd need to be able to remove damage% from our weapons too, at the cost of DPS. If players want to turn the Soma into a 20% pure Radiation proc'er at the expense of 60% of their DPS, the game should encourage that.

 

I would def love to see a fleshed out idea for the damage table. Those 75%'s need to go...don't quote me on that :P

 

RE physical mods not being 'fixed', I have two thoughts. It's not as easy as some may think.

 

1) +Elem mods scale off of base damage and don't increase it. +Phys mods would have to do the same, or it would really cause an actual catastrophe.

 

Thus, we now have a paradox in the system. My slash mod increased my slash by 90%, but that didn't improve my "base damage"? But when I boost slash by 90% with serration, it does improve my base damage?!? I thought all of my physical WAS base damage?

 

You'd need to call it "bonus slash" etc. Not horrible, but a bit clunky perhaps.

 

2) They don't want to increase the damage cap - 3 new +90% mods might give more DPS to some weapons. Someone who can do math will be better suited to predict if this would happen.

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IMO we'd need to be able to remove damage% from our weapons too, at the cost of DPS. If players want to turn the Soma into a 20% pure Radiation proc'er at the expense of 60% of their DPS, the game should encourage that.

We already discussed that. I don't think DE sees it that way. Soma was likely built around the idea of a crit build, and nothing else. It seems it's their idea of build diversity (for now)

I would def love to see a fleshed out idea for the damage table. Those 75%'s need to go...don't quote me on that :P

Or, more popular proposal, more 75% should be available to chose...Quote DarknightK for that

I think Damage 3.0 needs to come, as said in the first page of the thread.

Along with that, Armor 2.0/3.0 as well as Resistances 2.0. They're still just horrid and ungodly contradictory. I shouldn't have to be punished for using an element/proc that is effective against one health bar, but not against a shield or armor bar. Less resistances, more weaknesses.

It's on you now Dark, for better or worse :p

RE physical mods not being 'fixed', I have two thoughts. It's not as easy as some may think.

1) +Elem mods scale off of base damage and don't increase it. +Phys mods would have to do the same, or it would really cause an actual catastrophe.

Thus, we now have a paradox in the system. My slash mod increased my slash by 90%, but that didn't improve my "base damage"? But when I boost slash by 90% with serration, it does improve my base damage?!? I thought all of my physical WAS base damage?

You'd need to call it "bonus slash" etc. Not horrible, but a bit clunky perhaps.

2) They don't want to increase the damage cap - 3 new +90% mods might give more DPS to some weapons. Someone who can do math will be better suited to predict if this would happen.

Oh, I think I figured it out. The answer could be, again, weapon diversity.

If mods scaled off of base damage, you could make any physical weapon have 2 dominant physical damage type.

Example: 10 slash; 2 puncture; 2 impact on a pistol becomes 10; 10; 1 with a 60% puncture increase.

Therefore negating the pinciple of weapon damage specialization.

But that doesn't explain why there is such a discrepency in % among the different weapon slots. only 30% for rifle, while pistols get 60, and melee gets 90%.

It's like Damage 1.0 and AP mods all over again. Remember when AP mod for pistol was only 30% for some reason, while Rifle was 60? Until it got buffed to 90%, for some other obscure reason.

Edited by Thelonious
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But that doesn't explain why there is such a discrepency in % among the different weapon slots. only 30% for rifle, while pistols get 60, and melee gets 90%.

It's like Damage 1.0 and AP mods all over again. Remember when AP mod for pistol was only 30% for some reason, while Rifle was 60? Until it got buffed to 90%, for some other obscure reason.

 

That is just legacy. We have to assume mods 2.0  (or balance 2.0) is coming 'Soon' and they're probably going to clean house. There are so many 'clerical' issues like that floating around.

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When concerning bleed dots, they should totally stack(But with diminishing returns), and fall off as Bleeds do in GW2. You can have up to X stacks of Bleed procs applied, but each one has its own separate timer; That way, you aren't doing Rolling Chains (See: DoT Photographing in WoW) to keep the numbers at max, or worse...Always rising higher.

 

These are great points for DE to consider in the future, if procs became a significant source of damage.

 

However, right now, anyone with access to these builds will at least have a Soma/Ogris level of DPS - so they'll be nearly insta-killing everything outside of very late wave defense/survival, which DE claims not to balance for.

 

At moment, DoT's will barely have a chance to fire off, let alone stack.

 

However, I'd hazard to guess we'll be seeing a bit more high level action with the advent of Badlands :)

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