One Thing Certain Players Should Understand

[Otakuwolf]

Is that they can't complain about the game being "too easy" or certain mobs being "too easy" just because they play "cheap".

 

I'll make an example using a personal experience: Last time i solo-ed the Harvester i found him easy, but at the same time i thought "Would it been different if i would have used a "different" weapon than my potatoed and 3 forma-ed Paris with crit build of 14k damage on headshot ? Would it been different for other players not having my same experience in the game nor my same weapons and builds ?"

It probably would.

 

The thing many players fail to understand is "why" this game feels "easy" to them, because it's not hard to understand that if you make experience and upgrade your stuff to insane levels at somepoint everything the game trows at you becomes "easy", and even more if you use "cheap" ways to play like spamming Penta grenades, Nova's MP, or anything with the same effect of a "bomb" in the Neo-Geo shmups.

 

Besides, as i always say "life can be a pain, you can't make it easyer, but if you're a masochist you can make it even more painful".

What i mean is, if you're one of those players going around blasting an entire room and bosses with explosives or "powerful" weapons and want a better challenge, stop for a moment, put down your "monstruosities", and pick up something different, if you want to go hardcore pick your old dear "Braton MK-I, Lato, Skana" and fight on pluto with those instead of going around oneshooting everything in sight with the "better" stuff.

 

Endgame/expert players and most in particular the "hardcore" ones shouldn't complain about the game being "too easy", i can understand that if you reach a certain level of skill you might also want a better challenge, but asking for the whole game to be rebalanced just because you can "oneshot an enemy with a nuke" is not a valid excuse considering that:

1) Not all the players are at your same level of experience

2) Not all the players have your same equipments with your same modifications

3) Not all the players enjoy to use your same equipments and modifications

 

Instead of rebalancing the game i think that what those players need is a completely new challenge that wouldn't involve a complete rebalance of the game but rather the introduction of new "optional" features, like new stages, new enemies, and new features too.

 

Btw, sorry for the bad english.

[Un1337ninj4]

I've been doing Interceptions for a while just helping newbs get past them, I thank you for this post. Those missions tear up the new guys!

[immolator1001]

There are somethings that are too easy however, such as most boss fights with valkyr, provided she can reach the weak spot on the boss she'll wreck everything from Vor to the Grinyu Force.

[Hyunsai]

I agree. I don't really care about the early planets being easy, because that's, well, kinda the point ?

 

The problem is DE said that they didn't want to balance things around 40+ or more than 30 minutes survival / defense, and they keep releasing ridiculous weapons that render everything below this point trivial. How the hell can you release a weapon like Boltor Prime which can do insane damage UNRANKED, and not expect players to find your game easy ? I don't even talk about some frame's powers...

[Maou]

Well Nef Anyo needs a fix, because well, he is just too easy. 

[7grims]

I never understood the it's-too-easy people, Im mastery 15 and I don't see it being easy.

 

Maybe those it's-too-easy people spent too much time on saturn or planets under.

I love survivals in ceres, and staying after the 40m is not easy at all.

[DaftMeat]

(I love this)

[7grims]

How the hell can you release a weapon like Boltor Prime which can do insane damage UNRANKED, 

 

I also don't get you new ppl that are fascinated with boltor prime, boltor was always a good weapon, and the prime haves no special high numbers that are so different then the regular one.

I bet all you guys never realize boltor was so good, and now you all think the prime version is DA THING.

[Virtus_Dei_Est]

i found some flawed logic in you post, let me explain.

 

there i nothing as "cheap" when the devs are not capable to balance their own game.

 

if you can erase an entire stage with an ulti or being able to enter "god mode" with certain frames, is lazy design.

 

you cant blame the players for using the most powerful gear in a game or exploiting the most powerful frames, more in a grinding game as warframe is.

 

what you can do is restrain their ability to do so, as a developer.

 

 

as long as DE decide to work again with that concept they talked about in a devs tream of matching players of similar levels, or "conclave" (i know is crap but is the only measurement we have at the time), the game will never be balanced.

 

i should cripple myself to make the game challenging? no.

the devs should make the game challenging for every player based on their level? yes.

 

if you visit mercury the planet should escale to your level, is non sense to have a level 15 player alongside with a new player.

 

and before someone says "i like to help new players", well, you can add some type of sponsor program to the game, thats another discussion.

 

TL:DR: The game is easy because is not working toward balancing the levels of the players in a match, but this is not an issue the players should fix, but the devs.

[FunkDoctaSpock]

This is a very valid point (OP's). Like the DEVs said this is a combat sandbox game. Past a certain level of gear you'll need to make up your own challenges. People claiming the game is too easy just fail at challenging themselves in a creative and fun manner.

Edited March 16, 2014 by FunkDoctaSpock

[FunkDoctaSpock]

I also don't get you new ppl that are fascinated with boltor prime, boltor was always a good weapon, and the prime haves no special high numbers that are so different then the regular one.

I bet all you guys never realize boltor was so good, and now you all think the prime version is DA THING.

I have 4 forma in my Boltor, was my working horse back when armor ignore was NEEDED to do high level grineer. But you say the BoltorP is the same ? It's isn't man. It has twice the damage, faster re-load speed and rate of fire ;)

 

What I don't get is those players who never liked the Boltor because of its "slow" projectiles but now that it has "top DPS" NEED that weapon :D

[DiabolusUrsus]

i found some flawed logic in you post, let me explain.

 

there i nothing as "cheap" when the devs are not capable to balance their own game.

 

How is that a flaw in his logic? That's your opinion, and you can't possibly back that up.

 

if you can erase an entire stage with an ulti or being able to enter "god mode" with certain frames, is lazy design.

 

you cant blame the players for using the most powerful gear in a game or exploiting the most powerful frames, more in a grinding game as warframe is.

 

what you can do is restrain their ability to do so, as a developer.

 

While I agree that DE doesn't make the best design choices when it comes to balancing, I can and most certainly will blame players who not only exploit the most powerful gear available, but use that as a benchmark for difficulty when that same gear is not available to the people balance changes will affect the most. It's okay to ask for more of a challenge. It's not okay to completely disregard the needs of people who don't have as many shiny toys.

 

as long as DE decide to work again with that concept they talked about in a devs tream of matching players of similar levels, or "conclave" (i know is crap but is the only measurement we have at the time), the game will never be balanced.

 

i should cripple myself to make the game challenging? no.

the devs should make the game challenging for every player based on their level? yes.

 

True. That's not what I'm taking issue with, though. Should you have to cripple yourself to make the game challenging? No. Whether or not forma-ing your weapon once or twice rather than eight times can be considered "crippling" yourself is debatable, however. The only thing being criticized in this thread is people who advocate ultimately harmful balance changes based off of personal whims and dissatisfaction.

 

if you visit mercury the planet should escale to your level, is non sense to have a level 15 player alongside with a new player.

 

and before someone says "i like to help new players", well, you can add some type of sponsor program to the game, thats another discussion.

 

TL:DR: The game is easy because is not working toward balancing the levels of the players in a match, but this is not an issue the players should fix, but the devs.

 Responses in bold.

Aside from that, HOLY MOTHER OF... SOMEONE WHO UNDERSTANDS THE CONCEPT OF NOT FORGETTING ABOUT NEWER PLAYERS. Someone who thinks that assuming you yourself are the centerpiece of all balance considerations is misguided! Someone who is mindful of differences between individual levels of skill and experience!

 

What really, really kills me is that the same players whining for more of a challenge throw screaming tantrums whenever someone suggests nerfing their powerful gear a bit instead of buffing all of the enemies to compensate. They must definitely understand the concept of balance.

You have made my day with this thread.

As immolator1001 said, though, there are some things here and there that bear legitimate claim to some rebalancing in terms of overall difficulty. Sergeant Nef Anyo, for example. Even before his eventual overhaul, he could use some buffs.

[LunarWind]

This is something I remember discussing back in Update 7.0

 

People put on maxed Serration, maxed elemental damage, maxed Redirection, and Lotus-only-knows what other absurdly powerful mods.

Then they claim that the game is too easy, and the devs need to make more difficult content.

 

This is, in my mind, akin to playing DOOM 2 with god-mode and infinite ammo cheats, then claiming that the game is too easy.

 

That was even before Forma, but now it has become truly laughable.

People spend so much time steadily increasing their power far beyond the enemy's capabilities, then complain that they have reached the point of trivializing most content.

[Volt_Cruelerz]

Here's the thing though, unless I'm in the minority and other players can mind control each other to prevent other players from using those weapons, challenge will naturally be arbitrary.

Also, I think most people that complain about being too easy acknowledge that noobs have a hard time.

Edited March 16, 2014 by Volt_Cruelerz

[Virtus_Dei_Est]

 Responses in bold.

Aside from that, HOLY MOTHER OF... SOMEONE WHO UNDERSTANDS THE CONCEPT OF NOT FORGETTING ABOUT NEWER PLAYERS. Someone who thinks that assuming you yourself are the centerpiece of all balance considerations is misguided! Someone who is mindful of differences between individual levels of skill and experience!

 

What really, really kills me is that the same players whining for more of a challenge throw screaming tantrums whenever someone suggests nerfing their powerful gear a bit instead of buffing all of the enemies to compensate. They must definitely understand the concept of balance.

You have made my day with this thread.

As immolator1001 said, though, there are some things here and there that bear legitimate claim to some rebalancing in terms of overall difficulty. Sergeant Nef Anyo, for example. Even before his eventual overhaul, he could use some buffs.

 

 

maybe my english is so broken that i cant make myself clear, lets try again (also you answered all of the points but not the important one)

 

"if you visit mercury the planet should escale to your level, is non sense to have a level 15 player alongside with a new player."

 

again, i am not forgetting about new players, what i am saying is that you can't level anything based on, at the same time, the experience of new players and veterans on a game.

 

you have the best gear? you should be matched with players of the same level (and the planet should be escaled to that difficulty also), you have the worst? same logic.

 

only with that you can avoid all the nerf this buff that whining around.

 

you are trying to make everything available for everyone, regardless if they are being playing for an hour or months, thats impossible.

Edited March 16, 2014 by omega_phoenix

[MisterUltimate]

I don't have any formas in my 10 Warframes. I don't have any weapons with more than one, and my favorite, the Tetra, has zero. Absolutely nothing in that wall of assumptions applies to me. Yeah, the game gets easy after a while, and you know what? That's not a problem with the game. It's a problem with us, and what we are expecting at this point in development.

Why? The game isn't finished. There are entire systems (melee 2.0, Focus, etc) that haven't been implemented yet. Things are constantly being tweaked and rebalanced. Dev Streams have mentioned new factions, new areas of the solar map, an alliance system for clans (that works), and on and on. Seems like almost double the content we have now. So, if the difficulty for what we have now ramps up, imagine how gonad shrivelingly hard is that new content going to be?

Many players (which until recently included me) are calling for an end game to remedy the lack of difficulty. That will probably happen, but most likely not until the game is in a reasonably finished state, where the majority of what the devs would consider must haves are in place an working.

In the meantime, I've decided that just because I was overzealous and blazed through the content that is there and have trouble grinding to get new weapons when I don't really need anything else isn't anyone's fault but my own.

That first trip through the solar system? Yeah, pretty tough. Getting my first frame to 30? Seemed like it took forever. Afterwards, even on a brand new frame, not so much. Is it supposed to be? Nah.

What is in place is there to help players learn the game mechanics in a reasonably challenging way to prepare for the good stuff. Yep, it's taking it's time getting here, but it'll be done when it's done.

So, until then, I'll play when someone in my clan needs a hand, recruit new players to the clan to teach them the ropes, and catch the live streams so that we get the focus system, the badlands, the negative zone, and the sizzler, I'll be ready.

[DiabolusUrsus]

maybe my english is so broken that i cant make myself clear, lets try again (also you answered all of the points but not the important one)

 

"if you visit mercury the planet should escale to your level, is non sense to have a level 15 player alongside with a new player."

 

again, i am not forgetting about new players, what i am saying is that you can't level anything based on, at the same time, the experience of new players and veterans on a game.

 

you have the best gear? you should be matched with players of the same level (and the planet should be escaled to that difficulty also), you have the worst? same logic.

 

only with that you can avoid all the nerf this buff that whining around.

 

you are trying to make everything available for everyone, regardless if they are being playing for an hour or months, thats impossible.

 

Agreed 100%. It's just that you didn't actually find any flaws in the OP's logic, and half of what you were saying was opinionated. Players are definitely partly to blame when they find ways of testing the absolute limits of the game and try to use those limits as part of balance consideration. That's all.

 

I agree with your proposed solution for the time being, as well. It's a good quick-fix, but you yourself acknowledged that the conclave/level scaling systems that are in place are pretty bad right now. Those need to be changed before a scaling system can become the end-all solution to balancing concerns. Kinda screws over trying to rank up new weapons, though.

For the most part we are coming from the same place. I was being a bit nit-picky, though, so you have my apologies for that.

[DiabolusUrsus]

Here's the thing though, unless I'm in the minority and other players can mind control each other to prevent other players from using those weapons, challenge will naturally be arbitrary.

Also, I think most people that complain about being too easy acknowledge that noobs have a hard time.

 

I'm not discounting the existence of that majority, Volt, but I'm inclined to say that they are a rather tacit group that is unfortunately overshadowed by an obnoxiously verbal minority.

[Nagisawa]

Is that they can't complain about the game being "too easy" or certain mobs being "too easy" just because they play "cheap".

 

I'll make an example using a personal experience: Last time i solo-ed the Harvester i found him easy, but at the same time i thought "Would it been different if i would have used a "different" weapon than my potatoed and 3 forma-ed Paris with crit build of 14k damage on headshot ? Would it been different for other players not having my same experience in the game nor my same weapons and builds ?"

It probably would.

 

The thing many players fail to understand is "why" this game feels "easy" to them, because it's not hard to understand that if you make experience and upgrade your stuff to insane levels at somepoint everything the game trows at you becomes "easy", and even more if you use "cheap" ways to play like spamming Penta grenades, Nova's MP, or anything with the same effect of a "bomb" in the Neo-Geo shmups.

 

Besides, as i always say "life can be a pain, you can't make it easyer, but if you're a masochist you can make it even more painful".

What i mean is, if you're one of those players going around blasting an entire room and bosses with explosives or "powerful" weapons and want a better challenge, stop for a moment, put down your "monstruosities", and pick up something different, if you want to go hardcore pick your old dear "Braton MK-I, Lato, Skana" and fight on pluto with those instead of going around oneshooting everything in sight with the "better" stuff.

 

Endgame/expert players and most in particular the "hardcore" ones shouldn't complain about the game being "too easy", i can understand that if you reach a certain level of skill you might also want a better challenge, but asking for the whole game to be rebalanced just because you can "oneshot an enemy with a nuke" is not a valid excuse considering that:

1) Not all the players are at your same level of experience

2) Not all the players have your same equipments with your same modifications

3) Not all the players enjoy to use your same equipments and modifications

 

Instead of rebalancing the game i think that what those players need is a completely new challenge that wouldn't involve a complete rebalance of the game but rather the introduction of new "optional" features, like new stages, new enemies, and new features too.

 

Btw, sorry for the bad english.

Dood, I've been saying this for months.

 

I'm a casual player, really, I am.  but I have over 500 hours in this game, and although I'm a middling player (I've not had much in the way of Forma, I think I've only reset one weapon, and my Excalibur twice) I can see how the game can by a little rough on most new players.  And most of the guys who claim the game is easy, also have about the same amount of play time, but have had a decent spread of catalysts, reactors and forma among a decent amount of Frames to play with, so their experience is going to be much different.  They're pretty well beefed up.  Most toys, and beginner players aren't.

[Virtus_Dei_Est]

Agreed 100%. It's just that you didn't actually find any flaws in the OP's logic, and half of what you were saying was opinionated. Players are definitely partly to blame when they find ways of testing the absolute limits of the game and try to use those limits as part of balance consideration. That's all.

 

I agree with your proposed solution for the time being, as well. It's a good quick-fix, but you yourself acknowledged that the conclave/level scaling systems that are in place are pretty bad right now. Those need to be changed before a scaling system can become the end-all solution to balancing concerns. Kinda screws over trying to rank up new weapons, though.

For the most part we are coming from the same place. I was being a bit nit-picky, though, so you have my apologies for that.

 

Np, mate.

 

just sayed about the flaw in logic because:

 

for what i can read, the OP says that players should auto regulate themselves to make the game challenging, and by my logic no one ever, most in a game, can restrain himself for using the best gear the game can offer (only a few will, and in my opinion is the dev work to do regulate this, not us) , so asking for something like that seems too utopic to achieve in an online game (gamers playing nice and by the rules, by their own choice).

 

also, yes, conclave sucks, but separating the new player experience and the veterans is the only way i can see to settle once and for all the Nerf/Buff war between players in warframe .

 

but i knew after i posted that the "flaw in logic" will sound too agressive, was not the intention

Edited March 16, 2014 by omega_phoenix

[kubbi]

I agree. I'm a mastery 15 and pretty much obtained and formaed the best weapons for max damage. So I play defence or survival because the further you go, the more challenging it gets. The further you go the more chaotic and exiting it gets. I love it.

[Lorche]

I have some quip with your points, but overall.......nicely said, TC

 

Here's my take on this.

I think we all agree, so far, that players are easily fall into using a weapon that actually meant to use for later level. After forma-ing the said weapon multiple times, and blazing through all planets, they then complain the game are too easy because they don't realized that they're fall into a trap. Is it all the truth about end-game players? Nope. Not all 'endgame' players are reaching the 'endgame' with this way. Some are legitimately level weapons until there's no weapon left to master. For them, what's the next step? End-game content. They have Void to remedy that need for "end-game content". But how long it was since the release of the Tier 3 of Void? Players who are played longer than me probably already tasted the T3 and conquered it. For me, T3 is still a challenge. For them? not so much. And the actual end-game content are under work. So basically, they have nothing to do until that happened.

 

Artificial difficulties can be used, but again, it's a band-aid solution.

When people running out of ideas for 'artificial difficulties'? We'll have the same talk again. Over and over.

 

On the other hand, we have Venus. This planet makes many new players complained that the game was too hard because the MK-1 Braton suddenly have a noticeable drop in performance to Corpus; while actually the Damage 2.0 system are kicking in full force, and they don't even told in details about it. While DE intended to use Codex to help them, we all know too well how that goes. Not to mention some people with high MR refuses to listen or answer to "new Excal" questions on either region chat or in-game (usually in our shooting ground, Appolodorus). That forces them to use external source of information (Did i need to mention how 'civil' the comment section there?), and easily fall into the 'trap' I already mentioned above. So the cycle continues.

 

We need to show them ropes of the game, not showing them 'easy mode'. Yeah, some may see this as a pain, but when you taught them the 'proper' way, they will enjoying the game more.

 

TL;DR version:

- Are there some players who go 'easy mode' on certain setup and complaining that the game was too easy? Yes.

- Do they need to shut up? Yes

- Do end-game players need to know that end-game content are in-progress? Yes

- Does the mastery level requirements on some ''cheap-weapon" need to be tweaked? Maybe.

- Should players teach the ropes to their new brethen? Yes

- Do we need another tier of Void to rearrange the loot and adding challenge until the actual end-game content? Yes

Edited March 16, 2014 by Lorche

[Virtus_Dei_Est]

TL;DR version:

- Are there some players who go 'easy mode' on certain setup and complaining that the game was too easy? Yes.

 

Agree, who's fault is that? i say the developers.

 

- Do they need to shut up?.

 

No.

everyone is entitled to give their opinion.

 

- Do end-game players need to know that end-game content are in-progress? Yes

 

what does changes to know this? the game will be unblanced as hell except for this new "endgame" modes.

 

 

- Does the mastery level requirements on some ''cheap-weapon" need to be tweaked? Maybe.

 

no.

 

the game should adapt to the players, not the other way around.

even with the mastery locked weapon you will have a level 15 with a newcomer in mercury, that should not happen.

 

- Should players teach the ropes to their new brethen? Yes

 

optional, but again the devs should train newcomers into the game, not players.

you want to help new players? great, but should not be a must.

[Lorche]

 

- Are there some players who go 'easy mode' on certain setup and complaining that the game was too easy? Yes.

 

Agree, who's fault is that? i say the developers.

 

Well, not 100 percent are the developers' fault. Yes, they make cheap weapons.

But why players know about it and abuse the hell out of it?

Because mouth to mouth recommendation. It makes certain weapon more popular or less popular.

New players heard this, and use this as their goal. Then, the cycle continues.

 

No.

everyone is entitled to give their opinion.

 

I must admit, my responses are kinda harsh on that one. I don't want rob their rights to state opinion, but I want them to take a reflection on their

foundation of complaints before stating their opinion.

- Does the mastery level requirements on some ''cheap-weapon" need to be tweaked? Maybe.

 

no.

 

the game should adapt to the players, not the other way around.

even with the mastery locked weapon you will have a level 15 with a newcomer in mercury, that should not happen.

 

And changing the mastery level is one way of developers to adapt against players who abuse the current game system.

As for the second point, the upcoming lobby system hopefully fixed that.

 

- Should players teach the ropes to their new brethen? Yes

 

optional, but again the devs should train newcomers into the game, not players.

you want to help new players? great, but should not be a must.

 

And they did it pretty badly atm. So, until they repair the tutorial, who else to to teach them? Players.

Besides, isn't teaching new players ropes of the game a common thing? Unless things have changed in 2013.........

[Virtus_Dei_Est]

@Lorche.

 

my point is being developers fault to not give the context for these weapons.

 

if you release a weapon that obliterate every enemy in the game, every player will be running scorching everything.

 

also i can go to mercury and slay Vor with a mastery locked weapon, Vor in that case should be at my level to present a proper challenge.

 

is devs fault to not give the proper enviroment to use these weapon (thats why i keep repeating myself about the planets escaling to the level of the players in it, everyone being able to go to any place in the game is a nightmare to balance, i would dare to say impossible to achieve)

 

as you say the lobby system would be a solution (similar level players matched + planet adapting to that level).

 

as for the last part, even if everyone becomes terrible persons and decide to not help new players, the game should still be able to teach them, thats was my point.

 

what i am actually afraid of , i note this after all the writting in this thread is:

 

if the players decide to fix the things by themselves as the OP suggest (by restraining the usage of high gear weapon or frames for example), DE wont balance anything

If every player help the newcomers, they will never get a proper tutorial,

 

so even people whining could be annoying, is necessary.

 

 

i hope that DE, now that they stopped with the weapon thing every wednesday, can focus on these issues instead.