Thank You For The Gorgon Wraith

[Volt_Cruelerz]

Why?  Because we finally got an event weapon that wasn't egregiously OP and at least according to the Hot Topics, this sounds like it is the start of a trend.

[meIody-]

Agreed. Event To Win must DIE.

 

Edit: BUT MUH TWIN WRAAAAAAIIIIIITHS!

Edited March 17, 2014 by MorteTacere

[Un1337ninj4]

Agreed. Event To Win must DIE.

 

Edit: BUT MUH TWIN WRAAAAAAIIIIIITHS!

Love my VWraiths >:3 they're very tasty... Fav weapon in-game got upgraded when they released it, since then I've put 8 Forma on...

Edited March 17, 2014 by un1337ninj4

[Calayne]

Now I'm just waiting for my Grakata Wraith and Karak Wraith.

It's pretty awesome that the improvements were mostly on the utility side of the stats. Particularly love the accuracy boost. The gameplay improvements can really make a difference in terms of enjoyment. Always did hate the spread on the original gorgon.

[-GaMeR-]

Thanks for 3K mastery exp :D

[NanoDecerto]

Thanks for 3K mastery exp :D

That's the only reason I bothered with something like Gorgon / Gorgon Wraith

[atpbx1]

It's better than the Gorgon, it's still not a good gun.

[notionphil]

Why? Because we finally got an event weapon that wasn't egregiously OP and at least according to the Hot Topics, this sounds like it is the start of a trend.

While you know I'm a big proponent of balance, I find the gorgon wraith a pyrric victory. The problem with the GW is that the Soma, Brakk, phage, penta, stugg et al are already disseminated among the playerbase. Most are even easily accessible for mid-level players.

Like it or not, we already have a DPS gold standard. Releasing weapons that don't perform near that standard instantly relegates them to mastery fodder, instead of being potential alternatives.

Edited March 17, 2014 by notionphil

[Phobose]

-snip-

I do agree with what you said. This thought process most of the community has on certain weapons is a bit "Narrow minded" (see what I did there?) Just another Mastery gun. I have to disagree. People said that about my Karak, 6 forma's later it's got huge teeth and chewing through waves. Same with my Lanka, it's suddenly turned into a chain lightning sniper rifle 75% status plus crit and crit damage.

GW is real nice. It has the potential to be terrifying. For example, you create a shock gun. It has the status chance and the rate of fire to set off multiple instances of chain lightning on a squad. That's crowd control instantly. And oh boy do I love utility.

[notionphil]

I do agree with what you said. This thought process most of the community has on certain weapons is a bit "Narrow minded" (see what I did there?) Just another Mastery gun. I have to disagree. People said that about my Karak, 6 forma's later it's got huge teeth and chewing through waves. Same with my Lanka, it's suddenly turned into a chain lightning sniper rifle 75% status plus crit and crit damage.

GW is real nice. It has the potential to be terrifying. For example, you create a shock gun. It has the status chance and the rate of fire to set off multiple instances of chain lightning on a squad. That's crowd control instantly. And oh boy do I love utility.

 

I'm a huge fan of utility, and diamond-in-the-rough weapons.  My 'most used' weapon stat goes to the Seer (5 forma). I have a 4 forma Grakata, which i use far more than Soma et al.

 

However, most players don't share our love of weaponized curio, and instead want real world efficacy.

 

For example - I'd love to create a shock gun; however WF won't let me.

 

I can instead create a stun, knockback, bleed, shock gun, which means i'm shocking 25% of the time even in the best circumstances. For a max 25% chance at shocking, I'd guess 90% of players probably feel they are better off with the 60% more DPS the Soma gives, especially with the 4x headshot crit and better ammo efficiency.

 

In DE's defense, I'll say that Wraith weapons aren't mastery locked so...it's not like they should be giving away endgame weapons to people who just started playing. There are better ways to skin that cat, but we'll get there eventually.

[Volt_Cruelerz]

While you know I'm a big proponent of balance, I find the gorgon wraith a pyrric victory. The problem with the GW is that the Soma, Brakk, phage, penta, stugg et al are already disseminated among the playerbase. Most are even easily accessible for mid-level players.

Like it or not, we already have a DPS gold standard. Releasing weapons that don't perform near that standard instantly relegates them to mastery fodder, instead of being potential alternatives.

True, but you can't fix the meta by continually reinforcing it.

 

 People said that about my Karak, 

The Karak is actually one of the best AR's in the game.

[notionphil]

True, but you can't fix the meta by continually reinforcing it.

 

 

Old meta is dead, long live new meta.

 

PMing you momentarily :)

[Calayne]

Old meta is dead, long live new meta.

 

PMing you momentarily :)

 

Hey, don't hide all the juicy bits of the private convo! ;)

[Volt_Cruelerz]

Hey, don't hide all the juicy bits of the private convo! ;)

Hint: I brought up this: link

[Calayne]

Hint: I brought up this: link

 

Dammit, now you just have to talk about it one way or another. 

 

Kinda fits, you're both idea guys, but Volt's definitely more on the numbers side. You guys are like... Peanut butter and jelly. Or Reese's Chocolate-coated peanut butter.

 

Gosh, this Excel seems pretty new, too! I like how it's separated into the appropriate section of DPS or TTK based on the fire-mode/fire-rate. That's pretty awesome. In fact, that's really awesome. Now I'm pretty sure you guys were discussing damage balancing.

[Volt_Cruelerz]

Gosh, this Excel seems pretty new, too!

Actually, not really.  I made it a while ago.  The thing was, I made it and was going to publish it, but then I realized that the fundamental problem with balance in Warframe is power progression.  After that, I just kept it in reserve for a future time because I don't want to put the cart before the horse.

[Calayne]

Actually, not really.  I made it a while ago.  The thing was, I made it and was going to publish it, but then I realized that the fundamental problem with balance in Warframe is power progression.  After that, I just kept it in reserve for a future time because I don't want to put the cart before the horse.

 

Wow. It's got Burston Prime, though, so it can't be too old. But it's pretty simple, compared to your other spreadsheet, though it does give a very nice, condense overview.

 

Any chance that any DE member commented on anything regarding that? The damage balancing thing, I mean. Seems like a pretty big thing they'll want to know about, considering they've taken such a large step in Melee 2.0.  I figure a little number tweaking would be something their mathematicians and designers will be able to verify, tweak, and then apply.

 

The Excel sheets you've made are basically proof of what's wrong with the number game in Warframe. I think it's in their best interest to correct that. 

[Volt_Cruelerz]

Wow. It's got Burston Prime, though, so it can't be too old. But it's pretty simple, compared to your other spreadsheet, though it does give a very nice, condense overview.

 

Any chance that any DE member commented on anything regarding that? The damage balancing thing, I mean. Seems like a pretty big thing they'll want to know about, considering they've taken such a large step in Melee 2.0.  I figure a little number tweaking would be something their mathematicians and designers will be able to verify, tweak, and then apply.

 

The Excel sheets you've made are basically proof of what's wrong with the number game in Warframe. I think it's in their best interest to correct that. 

As I said, I haven't published it, so no.  DE doesn't know about it.  To be honest, I wonder if they have any spreadsheeters.  Historically, common sense numbers changes just haven't happened.  This may be changing with the way things have been headed as of late, but who knows?  Even if I literally handed this to them, unless they have spreadsheeters that understand it, it's meaningless.  Of course, niche definition is only relevant if difficulty isn't arbitrary...

[notionphil]

Dammit, now you just have to talk about it one way or another. 

 

Kinda fits, you're both idea guys, but Volt's definitely more on the numbers side. You guys are like... Peanut butter and jelly. Or Reese's Chocolate-coated peanut butter.

 

Gosh, this Excel seems pretty new, too! I like how it's separated into the appropriate section of DPS or TTK based on the fire-mode/fire-rate. That's pretty awesome. In fact, that's really awesome. Now I'm pretty sure you guys were discussing damage balancing.

 

DE has made some tentative steps towards balance as of late. Volt and I are noticing the trend and are discussing a few ideas to take the conversation about balance, and what it means to the next level.

 

Volt is far more analytical than I - any numbers I generate are wild approximations and would require several passes through Volt's spreadsheets to be sanitized for player use :)

 

I think my strength is in looking at the same situation as everyone else, and seeing a completely different problem and solution.

[LukeAura]

So is Notion_Cruelerz the new greatest super hero duo of the forums? 
You two should get a theme song and capes syandanas.

[notionphil]

So is Notion_Cruelerz the new greatest super hero duo of the forums? 

You two should get a theme song and capes syandanas.

 

I call "Not Sidekick"!!

 

Seriously tho, the forums definitely have a number of 'super posters'....dispersed across a variety of factions. Hopefully the 'Forces of Balance' will overcome and keep WF on it's path towards genre-defining game status.

[Calayne]

I call "Not Sidekick"!!

 

Seriously tho, the forums definitely have a number of 'super posters'....dispersed across a variety of factions. Hopefully the 'Forces of Balance' will overcome and keep WF on it's path towards genre-defining game status.

 

Mmyeah. I'll Amen and hear hear to that, brother Notion. A toast to the "Forces of Balance". 

 

Also, I definitely agree with your analysis of yourself and Volt :P  You two are complimentary forces. 

 

But it actually despairs me to see how many people are against balance. It's quite ridiculous. The arguments they put up for it is just... strange. It makes me want to choke myself until I turn blue and froth at the mouth. I won't go into that here. No one else needs the stress of recalling those.

 

Here's to hoping that DE gets the balance right on ALL guns, nerf or buff! And I'm reasonably sure for such a big company, they gotta have math guys... One way or another, they'll have them... right? If not, Volt could give them a crash course of damage and balance! He's done it for a thousand posts, at least, in the forum itself.

[LukeAura]

But it actually despairs me to see how many people are against balance. It's quite ridiculous. The arguments they put up for it is just... strange. It makes me want to choke myself until I turn blue and froth at the mouth. I won't go into that here. No one else needs the stress of recalling those.

I'm a very vindictive person, it's not one of my better qualities and very much a pain to keep in restraint. So they rile me up pretty badly as well. At times like those I throw a crash test dummy in to on coming traffic. Best purchase of my life. 

I'm sure they do have math guys, or at least mathematically skilled people working there, but I'm not sure the problem is so much the math as it is the thought process and idea guys that are making the math a nightmare for the math men. 

 

[Volt_Cruelerz]

Here's to hoping that DE gets the balance right on ALL guns, nerf or buff! And I'm reasonably sure for such a big company, they gotta have math guys... One way or another, they'll have them... right? If not, Volt could give them a crash course of damage and balance! He's done it for a thousand posts, at least, in the forum itself.

Just to be clear, math guys != spreadsheeters.  One of my friends from high school that I keep in contact with is a math guy.  He's great for ideas and brilliant in all things mathematics (one of the sleep every day in calculus, still ace everything kind of people), but he'd never bother going through the effort of spreadsheeting.  He, like the devs have seemingly done historically, would just eyeball it.  To balance by the numbers, you need people that are good at and like working with giant spreadsheets.

 

 

And I think it's probably closer to 2500 of my 3k were related to balance ;)

Edited March 17, 2014 by Volt_Cruelerz