Weapons 2.0

[Yezzik]

I know I've mentioned this before in other topics, but it's about time I fleshed it out properly and gave it its own topic.

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Problem 1: Between the various versions of each weapon available, there's simply too much stuff cluttering up the whole list--stuff that could be condensed to save space.

Problem 2: Exclusive items that grant Mastery result in a disparity between the maximum available for different players, which will result in a power imbalance that could last a matter of weeks each time Founders hit a new level of power after the Focus system is released, depending on how much the rate of new releases slows down.

Solution: Combine items that make sense. For example, Ankyros and Ankyros Prime would just become one item--Ankyros--with the Prime item becoming an alternate skin. The Affinity for both weapons would be combined up to the cap of level 30, which would cut the maximum Mastery available from those two weapons to just 3000.

This would fix the GAMEPLAY issues caused by having removed and exclusive weapons, while neither giving nor taking away anyone's Founder gear.

Counter: But what about all the time I've spent levelling and polarising my Prime items!

Solution: Here, have a forma for each time you polarised something that my plan ends up removing.

This is what the list of frames, weapons, etc, would look like if the change goes live:

Acrid

Akstiletto

Amphis

Ankyros (Ankyros Prime)

Ash

Ballistica

Banshee

Bo

Boar (Boar Prime)

Bolto (Akbolto)

Boltor (Boltor Prime)

Brakk

Braton (Braton Prime, Braton Vandal, MK1-Braton)

Bronco (Bronco Prime, Akbronco, Akbronco Prime)

Burst Laser

Burston (Burston Prime)

Carrier

Castanas

Ceramic Dagger

Cernos

Cestra (Dual Cestras)

Cronus

Dakra Prime

Dark Dagger

Dark Sword

Dera

Despair

Deth Machine Rifle

Dethcube

Detron

Djinn

Drakgoon

Dread

Dual Cleavers

Dual Ichor

Dual Zoren

Ember (Ember Prime)

Embolist

Ether Daggers

Ether Reaper

Ether Sword (Dual Ether)

Excalibur (Excalibur Prime)

Fang (Fang Prime)

Flux Rifle

Fragor

Frost (Frost Prime)

Furax

Furis (Afuris)

Galatine

Glaive (Glaive Prime)

Gorgon (Gorgon Wraith)

Grakata

Gram

Grinlok

Hate

Heat Dagger

Heat Sword (Dual Heat Swords)

Hek

Hikou

Hind

Ignis

Jat Kittag

Jaw Sword

Kama (Dual Kamas)

Karak

Kestrel

Kogake

Kraken

Kunai

Lanka

Laser Rifle

Lato (Lato Prime, Lato Vandal, Aklato)

Latron (Latron Prime)

Lecta

Lex (Aklex)

Loki

Machete (Machete Wraith)

Mag (Mag Prime)

Magistar

Magnus (Akmagnus)

Marelok

Mire

Miter

Nekros

Nova

Nyx

Oberon

Obex

Ogris

Orthos (Orthos Prime)

Pangolin Sword

Paris (Paris Prime)

Penta

Phage

Plasma Sword

Prova (Prova Vandal)

Reaper Prime

Rhino (Rhino Prime)

Saryn

Scindo

Scoliac

Seer

Shade

Sicarus (Sicarus Prime)

Skana (Skana Prime, Dual Skana)

Snipetron (Snipetron Vandal)

Sobek

Soma

Spectra

Stinger

Strun (Strun Wraith)

Stug

Supra

Sweeper

Synapse

Tetra

Tigris

Torid

Trinity

Twin Gremlins

Twin Vipers (Wraith Twin Vipers)

Tysis

Valkyr

Vasto (Akvasto)

Vauban

Vectis

Viper

Volt

Vulkar

Wyrm

Zephyr

If my numbers are correct, that cuts the list of available Mastery-giving items down from 172 to 131. That's a hefty chunk. There's likely more things that can be combined in the above list that I've missed, which would cut the list down further.

Only three removed items need to be added back into the game for this to work properly--the Snipetron, the Machete and the Ether Daggers.

If anyone has any objections to this, I honestly think you're clutching at straws. My plan won't give anyone access to anything they didn't have access to anyway, other than the three re-added items I just mentioned, none of which are game-breaking.

[BrotherIcarus]

Well the biggest problem I see with the solution is that it does not fix anything as it is not broken.

[Davoodoo]

Not like mastery rank adds anything, so i dont understand whats the problem here.

[DrPandisimo]

^^ It's not broken, stop being butthurt that you cant get exclusives

[Yezzik]

It fixes the Founder gear issue, as then people are just arguing over skins.

Unless of course DE make the Founder Primes better--as I heard that was their plan for all Primes

In that case, the Founder gear can have new skins, the existing Excal/Lato/Skana Primes can be released into the Void, and they can both have the same stats.

That should please everyone--Founders keep their exclusives and get revamped skins, Excal fans don't lose out, and nobody has a stat advantage that other players can't get too.

stop being butthurt that you cant get exclusives

Someone clearly didn't read the last paragraph of my original post.

Not like mastery rank adds anything, so i dont understand whats the problem here.

Fixes potential problems with Focus before it goes live. Edited March 19, 2014 by Yezzik

[DrPandisimo]

Someone clearly didn't read the last paragraph of my original post.

Fixes potential problems with Focus before it goes live.

 

You realise, as it stands, there are only 3 guaranteed exclusive weapons/frames that add up for a measly 12,000 mastery points. All of the other "exclusives" will probable be obtainable sometime in the future. Besides, its a co-op game, who cares if someone has 1 more focus or whatever it is than you do, its not like it makes any difference what so ever. 

[Daemon-of-Dirt]

The existence of primes is kind of what gives the end game a point right now.  I for one would be much less likely to do void missions just for skins.  You do more for them, they take more time, the stat advantage adds game diversity.  Yeah, there are a couple exclusives out there, but you missed out.  Oh well.  It's incentive to watch the next event.  Your idea will take away game diversity, while making the 'level playing field' that takes away the fun of knowing you have something someone else doesn't.  We call it different things, but admittedly part of the fun of the prime is that I am DONE with braton, but braton prime is far prettier AND hits harder.  The Wraith skinned items are a clear sign of a player that has been around for a while and invested in the game.  Time in a game gets rewarded, or players lost interest. I know that the Strun Wraith is an exclusive item with exclusive damage I would love to get my hands on, and if they implemented your idea either that damage would become the Strun Damage (and other values, etc)  or they would all just be stock struns and nigh impotent.  At that point, the issue is more with weapon stats than skins.  Honestly though, I have no problem with people for having a better strun, because there are more events, and hey, now I have a better Gorgon.

 

 

 

Besides, its a co-op game, who cares if someone has 1 more focus or whatever it is than you do, its not like it makes any difference what so ever. 

 

Amen

Edited March 19, 2014 by instig8r

[Davoodoo]

I really doubt that de wont add cap on focus and let it work with mr16+.

[TonyFoot]

You assume that the founder's gear issue is still an issue. It's not. DE is standing firm on the no-release decision. Move on.

 

edit: While I stand firm on the point that exclusives should remain just that, I do agree with alternate stat skins on weapons to remove the feeling of wasted time on certain guns when releasing, say, a new prime. No more wasted potatoes/forma!

Edited March 20, 2014 by TonyFoot

[Yezzik]

You assume that the founder's gear issue is still an issue. It's not. DE is standing firm on the no-release decision. Move on.

 

Does nobody actually read my posts before replying? Here, I'll quote the most important bit for you.

 

 

 

My plan won't give anyone access to anything they didn't have access to anyway, other than the three re-added items I just mentioned, none of which are game-breaking.

 

Those three items? Ether Daggers, Machete, Snipetron. I wouldn't be getting the Founders' gear; this plan merely renders the Mastery difference for unavailable items null and void, which takes away all possible gameplay problems present and future caused by having weapons not everyone can get.

 

In other words, you'd have the Lato Prime skin if you were a Founder of the appropriate rank, the Gorgon Wraith skin if you'd done Tethra's Doom well enough, etc. The Machete and Snipetron would have to be made available again because their alternate forms were also removed, and the Ether Daggers don't have one anyway.

Edited March 21, 2014 by Yezzik

[TonyFoot]

Those three items? Ether Daggers, Machete, Snipetron. I wouldn't be getting the Founders' gear; this plan merely renders the Mastery difference for unavailable items null and void, which takes away all possible gameplay problems present and future caused by having weapons not everyone can get.

 

In other words, you'd have the Lato Prime skin if you were a Founder of the appropriate rank, the Gorgon Wraith skin if you'd done Tethra's Doom well enough, etc. The Machete and Snipetron would have to be made available again because their alternate forms were also removed, and the Ether Daggers don't have one anyway.

 

 

okay, my bad, should have been more clear.

 

DE has stated that the founders gear (Stat altering items that are exclusive) will remain exclusive. It wouldn't matter if they were items or skins, they would still belong to a certain group of players and still give them a stat boost.

 

I'm merely using the exclusive founder's gear as an example to illustrate the following: They can't retract the mastery, ranks, or statistical advantages those items would have already given those members, even if said items were converted to skins.

 

Nothing anyone can do about mastery that has already been awarded, and DE won't roll back the mastery or the stats for fear of a massive flame war (bet on it, its happened with Brakk and several other items). It's too late to deal with that particular "problem" with the solution you have proposed.

Even if all the current exclusives were converted to skins, and all future exclusives were changed to stat-skins as well, the exclusive mastery is already in the pool. Your solution doesn't solve the "mastery problem" (which isn't even a problem, as exclusive mastery doesn't even blip the radar when you look at the required points for ranking up past MR10).

 

Let's say your "solution" is implemented: The mastery is already in the pool, doesn't even bestow enough for a new rank past MR4 (and basically can't be seen past MR10). Granted the exclusive pool isn't geeting any bigger, but it doesn't matter, because once you hit MR8 there's very little point to any further mastery.

 

Let's take focus into account: even if there would, somehow, be enough exclusive mastery to bestow a new rank, It's ONE rank, granting you, perhaps, MR16 (or, accounting for future gear releases, 17 or even 18) and it doesn't even matter, because there's going to be 6 focuses, and since you unlock a focus (edit: focus slot) every 2 ranks (word of Steve), Mastery stops counting after MR12.

 

Seriously. The difference between MR12 and MR13 is non-existant. No difference in focus, gear, bonuses, unlocks, or exclusives.  And every rank after that, right now and for the foreseeable future is as negligible as MR13. Once you've got MR12, everything else is peacock feathers.

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That said, I DO agree with the whole "alternate weapons as skins" idea, not to level the playing field (because it shouldn't even necessarily be level anyway [ CO-OP GAME GUYS]) but because that would mean putting at least SOME value back into the originals, and returning some old favourites back to the playing field (you can still get gorgon through login though [i think]). No more wasted potatoes, forma, or time.

Edited March 21, 2014 by TonyFoot

[Yezzik]

If it can't be removed from the Founders, then it could be added to everyone, so everyone gets the benefit of having levelled all removed and exclusive items to 30. The only "downside" to this that I can see is that players will start with enough Mastery to hit rank 3 or something.

 

Honestly, after thinking about it, I don't care if someone gets a stat boost from X item I'll never get--it's not like I don't have access to powerful Primes of my own.

 

It's when they have access to power levels I can't reach, that's when things get irritating.

[TonyFoot]

If it can't be removed from the Founders, then it could be added to everyone, so everyone gets the benefit of having levelled all removed and exclusive items to 30. The only "downside" to this that I can see is that players will start with enough Mastery to hit rank 3 or something.

 

Oh, so, those mastery tests, and the intro-tutorial, and the biggest jumps in power unlock, those can just go down the drain as well, can they?

 

A lot of work went into those. Granted, they could use a touch up or three, but there's not a snowball's chance in Hek those are getting tossed.

 

 

It's when they have access to power levels I can't reach, that's when things get irritating.

 

I literally just explained that the exclusive mastery doesn't give restricted access.

 

edit: restricted access to higher rank, that is.

Edited March 27, 2014 by TonyFoot

[Yezzik]

Actually, now I've had time to think on it, it's not like the Mastery involved needs to be given away right away.

Instead, say you got it as a reward for clearing the whole starmap as it stands now.

And as for restricted access to higher ranks, there will be moments in time--for weeks, even months at a time--when exclusives DO make the difference between Focus levels.

[TonyFoot]

And as for restricted access to higher ranks, there will be moments in time--for weeks, even months at a time--when exclusives DO make the difference between Focus levels.

 

No, they won't. I keep telling you, Focus is completely unlocked at MR12, and ALL players, exclusives or no, are currently capped at MR15. And if someone does have exclusives, they still have to level them to get that mastery, so progression is unaffected as well.

 

I get what you're saying; if DE keeps releasing weapons then we'll approach the next rank cap, and exclusives will breach it first. But even if exclusive mastery could bestow MR16, or any further ranks, there wouldn't be any point, as there is no difference in power levels between 15 and 16. None. Nadda, zilch, zip.

 

MR16, and beyond, would, at this point, be just another form of an event/founder's badge.

[Yezzik]

Focus is completely unlocked at MR12,

 

Where did you learn this information?

[Axterix13]

I know I've mentioned this before in other topics, but it's about time I fleshed it out properly and gave it its own topic.

---

Problem 1: Between the various versions of each weapon available, there's simply too much stuff cluttering up the whole list--stuff that could be condensed to save space.

Problem 2: Exclusive items that grant Mastery result in a disparity between the maximum available for different players, which will result in a power imbalance that could last a matter of weeks each time Founders hit a new level of power after the Focus system is released, depending on how much the rate of new releases slows down.

The problems with your problems:

#1.  Eventually, the goal is for us to be able to hit Mastery level 30.  That is going to take even more items.  A lot more items.  Additionally, new toys to play with are what is used to keep people playing.  The number of items will only increase.  Your proposed solution won't solve much in the long run.  UI improvements would be what is needed here (like different sorting options for weapons, the ability to mark them as favorites, etc).

 

#2.  Mastery past a certain point doesn't matter currently.  That a Founder or someone who did more events than me can hit 16 while I'm still capped at 15 just doesn't matter.  And in the long run, it won't matter either, because we'll all be able to hit 30.

[TonyFoot]

Where did you learn this information?

 

I forget the number, but on one of the livestreams where Steve talked about focus, he named six (6) focuses in which Tenno could level up and gain experience in. He stated that his goal was to have a focus unlocked and/or equipable every two (2) mastery ranks.

 

6focuses x 2ranks-per-focus = 12 ranks

 

Math.

[Yezzik]

I forget the number, but on one of the livestreams where Steve talked about focus, he named six (6) focuses in which Tenno could level up and gain experience in. He stated that his goal was to have a focus unlocked and/or equipable every two (2) mastery ranks.

 

6focuses x 2ranks-per-focus = 12 ranks

 

Math.

 

Interesting. Focus is sounding more and more like a limited hotbar into which you can place a bunch of skills you'd ideally really want, rather than the talent tree system I envisaged it as to start with.

 

Seems a bit redundant, though, given the devs also talked about wanting to add in generic abilties any frame could use--unless this is how they plan on doing it.

[nekrojiji]

Not like mastery rank adds anything, so i dont understand whats the problem here.

 

Mastery rank will matter with the new focus system.

[TonyFoot]

Interesting. Focus is sounding more and more like a limited hotbar into which you can place a bunch of skills you'd ideally really want, rather than the talent tree system I envisaged it as to start with.

 

Seems a bit redundant, though, given the devs also talked about wanting to add in generic abilties any frame could use--unless this is how they plan on doing it.

 

 

focus will get a talent tree, one for each individual focus, and, from what I can tell so far, all affinity not directed to a piece of gear or a Warframe goes to focus. dunno the specifics after that. All I know is that focus may or may not be an activated mode, will have a talent tree. the talent tree could also only be active during "focus mode." that's what we've got so far.