Feedback On Helios And Making Sense Of It

[Azamagon]

I made a bigger thread about Sentinels in general, but that post is too big for most people to care about I guess. So, I am now making a quicker, but still very thorough thread focused on Helios.

 

My feedback on it:

 

POSITIVE:

* It looks really, really cool.

* Its sounds are nice and fitting.

* The glaive-flinging is also awesome (when it works). Flinging parts of itself is just ... crazy, in a good way! :D

 

NEGATIVE:

* Helios (meaning: Sun) as its name makes little sense. (I voted for Ictus, which means "strike" in latin). Yeah, I get it, Helios is the greek god that granted sight, which is a connection to the Investigator mod. But this was supposed to be a MELEE-focused Sentinel!

* The Deconstructor and Helios' attack "patterns" are extremely wonky:

1) Base damage of the Deconstructor cannot be upgraded, neither with Killing Blow nor Pressure Point (Tested and confirmed, it neither increases the stats nor does it have any impact in the game (if it was just an UI bug). Also, a little fyi: Reflex Coil and Focus Energy (the chargespeed thingy) has 0 effect on its attacking behaviours either.

2) No matter which weapon Helios uses (!), it starts a really weird and unnecessary cooldown after each enemy engaged in battle: If it starts attacking an enemy within its range, and then the enemy is lost (dies, gets out of range, whatever), Helios gets a 4 to 5,5 second cooldown before it can start attacking a new target again (even if it is the same enemy again). This makes Helios, as a combat sentinel, EXTREMELY SLOW, no matter which weapon it uses!

3) When the Helios finally DOES attack a target, it often misses its intended targets, due to aiming at the top of their heads. Due to that, it ALWAYS misses crouching targets (shoots way above them) and MOAs that stand and shoot (since they crouch a tiny bit when shooting). NOTE: This ALSO happens with ANY weapon Helios has equipped, not just the Deconstructor! Using the Sweeper makes this issue a bit less of an issue, due to its spread. (Extra note: The other sentinels have a similar problem to this, however, since they do not aim for the head but rather at center mass, they tend to hit their targets more easily. This happens in particular against targets laying on the floor and other similar "enemy-repositioning" abilities such as Rhino Stomp, Bastille etc)

4) The Deconstructor weapon only works on Helios (which makes sense due to how it works, but it's bad for diversity)

* Investigator being unique on Helios? While the idea is nice, what the heck is it doing on a melee-focused Sentinel?

* Investigator has several problems besides the above:

1) It scans take very long to do, making personal scans more reliable anyway

2) It scans targets you have already completed in the codex (I heard at least this is getting fixed)

3) When you are done in the codex, what purpose does this ability have after that? It has close to 0 combat use (only MILD useage of helping with some "see through" with the whole orange silhouette thing).

 

WHAT WOULD I DO IF I WERE DE:

* Investigator should only scan non-Codex-completed targets, it should scan friendly targets too (Thanks for pointing this out Lightssout!), the scan should be close to instantly cast when at max rank and it should be a GENERAL abilitymod for ANY Sentinel (like Regen, Guardian etc), not the unique ability for Helios! Some example numbers for Investigator:

-- Range - 25/30/35/40/45/50 meters

-- Scantime -  1,5 / 1,25 / 1 / 0,75 / 0,5 / 0,25 seconds

-- Cooldown - 3 / 2,5 / 2 / 1,5 / 1 / 0,5 seconds

* On top of that, even while Investigator doesn't scan Codex-completed targets, it could still "ping" with the orange hue when any item/enemy is nearby, giving it a function as a mini-"see-through" ability, to help out a bit with your visual perception. That'd give it a nice little in-combat bonus, especially nice for Punchthrough-heavy weapons (like Lanka)!

* I'd suggest two different remake versions of Helios. Both versions have the same intentions: Making its name fit better with its melee theme, and also making it feel more like a meleefocused Sentinel:

 

Version 1:

Weapon - Deconstructor

Ability - Solar Blades

 

* Keeping Deconstructor as its weapon, I'd make it much faster to launch and re-launch (remove the buggy "cooldown" between target acquistions), make it aim better (no obvious derp-misses) and make either PP or KB increase its base damage. Also make more mods useful on it, like Reflex Coil and similar mods could increase its reloadtime, Fury increases rate of fire etc

 

* Solar Blades would be a close range ability (to replace Investigator) which emphasizes highly on its intended meleetheme. Its name is obviously chosen due to the Sentinel having the name Helios... So, here's how Solar Blades could work:

* Whenever an enemy comes within a very close range, Helios strikes out with several long and quite wide fire"blades" around it, attacking enemies at random, within a range greater than its triggering range. Targets are attacked randomly and each "blade" strike can cut through several units at once.

* The blades deal damage, staggers them and debuffs the affected targets so they suffer more damage taken from melee attacks.

* Activation range: 2,5 / 2,7 / 2,9 / 3,1 / 3,3 / 3,5 meters

* Striking range: 3,3 / 3,6 / 4 / 4,3 / 4,6 / 5 meters

* Amount of strikes: 5/6/7/8/9/10 strikes

* Strike interval: Once every 0,25 seconds

* Damage per strike: 40 Fire damage

* Melee weakness: 10/20/30/40/50/60% more damage taken from melee attacks (and maybe damage taken from all the Sentinel weapons too, to not pidgeonhole Helios always just using Deconstructor?)

* Melee weakness duration: 6/7/8/9/10/12 seconds

* Cooldown: 15/14/13/12/11/10 seconds.

Usability note: While this ability is lasting, the Sentinel can still shoot with its weapon!

 

Version 2:

Weapon - Solar Blades

Ability - Deconstructor Assault

 

As you maybe can see, this is pretty much the opposite of version 1 (with changes of course)

While this version would probably require a bit more work, it is also more likely to make its weapon equippable by other Sentinels!

 

* Solar Blades would be an entirely new weapon for Helios. It works more like a form of fiery whip/sword, which quickly lashes out against nearby enemies, which can hit several foes at once with each strike! Here are some suggested details:

* Accepts melee mods

* Can hit several foes at once (max 3?)

* Damage: 40 Heat

* Rate of Fire: 1

* Magazine: N/A or maybe 6 attacks

* Reload: N/A or maybe 1 second

* Status: 15%

* Base range: 4 meters

 

* Deconstructor Assault would be a mediumrange ability (to replace Investigator) which emphasizes highly on its intended meleetheme. Here's how I could see it work:

* Whenever an enemy comes within range, Helios shoots out a number of its "glaive"-parts in quick succession, which seeks out to strike a nearby random target, then each part bounces out to additional nearby targets. All launched parts can individually hit the same target, however an individual part can never bounce back to an already attacked target again.

* The "glaives" are now homing, never missing their intended targets!

* Each time a "glaive" hits a target, it deals damage, staggers and debuffs the affected targets so they suffer more damage taken from melee attacks.

* Activation range: 6 meters

* Bouncing range: 3,5 / 4 / 4,5 / 5 / 5,5 / 6 meters

* Amount of parts launched: 1/1/2/2/3/4 strikes

* Amount of bounces per part: 1/2/2/3/3/3 (That means a max of 1/2/4/6/9/12 hits!)

* Damage per strike:  50/55/60/65/70/75 Impact damage

* Melee weakness: 15/30/45/60/75/90% more damage taken from melee attacks (and maybe damage taken from all the Sentinel weapons too, to not pidgeonhole Helios always just using Solar Blades?)

* Melee weakness duration: 6/7/8/9/10/12 seconds

* Cooldown: 20/19/18/17/16/15 seconds.

Usability note: While this ability is launched and is out and bouncing, the Sentinel can still shoot with its weapon of choice!

Edited March 26, 2014 by Azamagon

[Jaawa]

I have similar thoughts about the sentinel, and might I add about the Investigator-ability, the 10 second cooldown is also way too long and its range way too short. I feel the sentinel would be much better suited to scan the enemy before it is in the 20 meter range and then start immediately using its melee ability when the target is scanned. You could also make it so that it only attacks targets scanned in current session and targets that have their codex scans completed. This way you'd have a clear indication of which target your sentinel is going for, and you could do a bit of teamwork with your own sentinel.

[CampingSnake]

 

* Base damage of the Deconstructor cannot be upgraded, neither with Killing Blow nor Pressure Point

The spoiled strike mod doesn't work either. Heavy Trauma (I think that's it, can't remember.) is the only mod that works, as it increases impact damage.

[Lightssout]

Helios also seems not to scan friendly units too.Tried a mission with Friendly Shield Osprays and it did not scan them :(

[Keltik0ne]

I'm not sure the problem with the Helios attack speed is it's weapon: I stuck a hugely forma'd set up for speed dethcube rifle in mine and it fires it single shot, every few secs with long pauses thrown in at random.

 

It's a buggy piece of crap right now, worse than the usual "make it look cool and worry about what it does later" junk they rush out.

[Azamagon]

I have similar thoughts about the sentinel, and might I add about the Investigator-ability, the 10 second cooldown is also way too long and its range way too short. I feel the sentinel would be much better suited to scan the enemy before it is in the 20 meter range and then start immediately using its melee ability when the target is scanned. You could also make it so that it only attacks targets scanned in current session and targets that have their codex scans completed. This way you'd have a clear indication of which target your sentinel is going for, and you could do a bit of teamwork with your own sentinel.

Yeah, I added some better numbers for Investigator. However, I dunno if you saw that I suggested to make it a GENERAL ability, instead of making it the unique one for Helios, thus your other ideas (while nice) don't really matter. Good ideas though :)

 

The spoiled strike mod doesn't work either. Heavy Trauma (I think that's it, can't remember.) is the only mod that works, as it increases impact damage.

Yeah, it's really weird :/

 

Helios also seems not to scan friendly units too.Tried a mission with Friendly Shield Osprays and it did not scan them :(

Added that it should do that! Thanks! :)

 

I'm not sure the problem with the Helios attack speed is it's weapon: I stuck a hugely forma'd set up for speed dethcube rifle in mine and it fires it single shot, every few secs with long pauses thrown in at random.

 

It's a buggy piece of crap right now, worse than the usual "make it look cool and worry about what it does later" junk they rush out.

Aha, so it's the Sentinel itself that attacks weirdly? Interesting catch. And yeah, it's for sure worse than usual. That's certainly saying something! -.-

[Lightssout]

i have found that Helios sometime scans objects/Enemies that I have not seen or is on a higher or lower level then me.

It also seems to scan Enemies that are dead/ just killed and partly scans things then stops for no apparent reason.

 

Not to mention it scans so slow :( 

[Azamagon]

Bump!

 

Figured out better now how the Glaive works with its targetting, and why it feels so slow. Will test more regarding this buggy "retargetting cooldown timer", to see how long this cooldown actually is, when I get back home from work! :)

[Keltik0ne]

Bump!

 

Figured out better now how the Glaive works with its targetting, and why it feels so slow. Will test more regarding this buggy "retargetting cooldown timer", to see how long this cooldown actually is, when I get back home from work! :)

Interesting, I look forward to the result.

[BlueSilkMetallic]

At the moment the sentinel is useless.

Complete useless.

 

Only acceptable solution (for me) that he would replace my carrier would be :

 

scan time : ZERO.

PLUS : he only scans targets with incomplete codex. (I asume realy no one needs 300 barrel scans ....)

 

 

The weapon is ok.

But if it is buffed why not ^^

[CampingSnake]

Bump!

 

I seem to be currently using helios more than my other sentinels. I just like it.

There are alot of obvious bugs that could be fixed, but I still enjoy the sentinel.

 

Using quick return has a positive effect on how much helios attacks (or so it seems)

[Azamagon]

Here are some of the bugs/results I've been getting when testing Helios more extensively:

 

1) Deconstructor damage and modding - It does not in any way get increased by either Pressure Point or Killing Blow (or similar mods). This is not just an UI error. On top of that, Reflex Coil and Focus Energy (its chargespeed thing) has no effect whatsoever on Helios attacking pattern or anything.

2) Helios Retargetting - No matter which weapon Helios uses (!), it starts a really weird and unnecessary cooldown after each enemy engaged in battle: If it starts attacking an enemy within its range, and then the enemy is lost (dies, gets out of range, whatever), Helios gets a 4 to 5,5 second cooldown before it can start attacking a new target again (even if it is the same enemy again). This makes Helios, as a combat sentinel, EXTREMELY SLOW, no matter which weapon it uses!

3) Angle Targetting Problems - Sometimes, especially versus the Infested Chargers, Helios does simply NOT attack at all. In particular if the target is too close or if you are on a particular elevation from it. In particular against Chargers, it seems to be a certain "angle of attack" that just doesn't work on it. (Note: I dunno if this is a similar issue on other Sentinels though, but it seems far less occuring at least, due to them not having the weird "cooldown" between battle engagements)

4) Bounce Modding Impact - Quick Return and Rebound have barely any effect at all on the rate of fire on the Deconstructor. The Deconstructor shoots up to 6 (I think, was a bit hard to confirm) parts at a target before it has to do its reload. However, it can only launch 3 parts at once (then it becomes "naked") as the parts have to return before it can launch the 3 remaining shots in its "magazine" before reloading. Quick Return allows for the parts to return earlier, therefore it does actually allow the Deconstructor to shoot SLIGHTLY faster on a target that requires more than 3 hits at once. But this effect is quite tiny. I recommend using Rebound instead though, as the extra bounces are more useful due to its cooldown between battle engagements (plus the parts' fast travel speed makes them bounce around really fast anyway). All of this was REALLY hard to test out though, it could certainly need more testing. Extra note: Either mod (QR or Rebound) have no effect on the cooldown mentioned in point 2

 

Overall note: HELIOS NEEDS SOME SERIOUS FIXING!

 

Interesting, I look forward to the result.

Well, as you can see in this post, I have some slightly more info now :)

 

At the moment the sentinel is useless.

Complete useless.

 

Only acceptable solution (for me) that he would replace my carrier would be :

 

scan time : ZERO.

PLUS : he only scans targets with incomplete codex. (I asume realy no one needs 300 barrel scans ....)

 

 

The weapon is ok.

But if it is buffed why not ^^

Yup. Its attacking is too slow and the scanning is pitifully slow and redundant with its overscanning.

 

Bump!

 

I seem to be currently using helios more than my other sentinels. I just like it.

There are alot of obvious bugs that could be fixed, but I still enjoy the sentinel.

 

Using quick return has a positive effect on how much helios attacks (or so it seems)

Very minimal positive effect (check the top of this post). I recommend Rebound more than Quick Return (as explained above)

[Axterix13]

Very minimal positive effect (check the top of this post). I recommend Rebound more than Quick Return (as explained above)

I'd suggest Whirlwind ;)

[Azamagon]

I'd suggest Whirlwind ;)

Maybe for better aiming on it, but it doesn't do anything beneficial for the buggy "cooldown" either :/ So, it's kind of useless, considering the short attack range on Helios. I'd just mod for elemental damage, Heavy Trauma and Rebound. Whirlwind only if you have no more damage-increasing mods to use.

[Lightssout]

I think they have done quite well with patching it so far.

The little guy seems to have quite a lot of bugs, but he is just  so cute.

 

Has his scan rate been increased?

[Indystruck]

Standing there and watching it miss an enemy who I am standing right behind dozens of times in a row is painful. I had time to alt+tab, grab gifcam, put it over the enemy and my Helios, adjust the recording FPS, press record, waited, saved, cut the gif, and uploaded it...

 

...and the sentinel was still not managing the relatively simple and PRIMARY task of hitting the enemy. Not killing mind you, no, just flat out HITTING the enemy.

[CampingSnake]

Standing there and watching it miss an enemy who I am standing right behind dozens of times in a row is painful. I had time to alt+tab, grab gifcam, put it over the enemy and my Helios, adjust the recording FPS, press record, waited, saved, cut the gif, and uploaded it...

 

...and the sentinel was still not managing the relatively simple and PRIMARY task of hitting the enemy. Not killing mind you, no, just flat out HITTING the enemy.

Mine has scary accuracy...

when he actually attacks

 

He actually got a kill for me in the dojo conclave. I was knocked down, and helios smacked him a few times to finish him.

[NiraMatar]

Version 1:

Weapon - Deconstructor

Ability - Solar Blades

 

* Keeping Deconstructor as its weapon, I'd make it much faster to launch and re-launch (remove the buggy "cooldown" between target acquistions), make it aim better (no obvious derp-misses) and make either PP or KB increase its base damage. Also make more mods useful on it, like Reflex Coil and similar mods could increase its reloadtime, Fury increases rate of fire etc

 

* Solar Blades would be a close range ability (to replace Investigator) which emphasizes highly on its intended meleetheme. Its name is obviously chosen due to the Sentinel having the name Helios... So, here's how Solar Blades could work:

* Whenever an enemy comes within a very close range, Helios strikes out with several long and quite wide fire"blades" around it, attacking enemies at random, within a range greater than its triggering range. Targets are attacked randomly and each "blade" strike can cut through several units at once.

* The blades deal damage, staggers them and debuffs the affected targets so they suffer more damage taken from melee attacks.

* Activation range: 2,5 / 2,7 / 2,9 / 3,1 / 3,3 / 3,5 meters

* Striking range: 3,3 / 3,6 / 4 / 4,3 / 4,6 / 5 meters

* Amount of strikes: 5/6/7/8/9/10 strikes

* Strike interval: Once every 0,25 seconds

* Damage per strike: 40 Fire damage

* Melee weakness: 10/20/30/40/50/60% more damage taken from melee attacks (and maybe damage taken from all the Sentinel weapons too, to not pidgeonhole Helios always just using Deconstructor?)

* Melee weakness duration: 6/7/8/9/10/12 seconds

* Cooldown: 15/14/13/12/11/10 seconds.

Usability note: While this ability is lasting, the Sentinel can still shoot with its weapon!

 

I like this version better as it can be really useful towards people focusing soley on Melee weapons, now that you can have them equipped. It would be really useful against enemies like Infested on Defense or Survival missions since they would have debuffs.

 

I also like the idea of the sentinel ability "investigator" being a general mod instead of specialized since then you could add it to a sentinel that actually works like a Shade so you can get closer to scan without worry of being caught.

[NiraMatar]

Standing there and watching it miss an enemy who I am standing right behind dozens of times in a row is painful. I had time to alt+tab, grab gifcam, put it over the enemy and my Helios, adjust the recording FPS, press record, waited, saved, cut the gif, and uploaded it...

 

...and the sentinel was still not managing the relatively simple and PRIMARY task of hitting the enemy. Not killing mind you, no, just flat out HITTING the enemy.

 

Where did you upload the .gif to? I'd like to see it.