Retune *all* The Frames! (11/19: Wildfire)

[Archwizard]

1 hour ago, Azamagon said:

1. So, you mean whatever damage enemies do to an E-shield is now stored inside the E-shield, then casting Shock through a E-shield will buff Shock's damage with that stored damage? That's really an interesting way to make Shock scale a bit better. I like it. This will be dealt purely as Electric damage though, no?
2. Yes please! This also makes it better for those rare players that want to opt out of it (since they only need to backflip half as often).
3. YES. DO THIS, NOW! MUCH better way to change it like this. I'd just like ONE more change to it: No restriction to secondary/melee only, please? It's not carried on the left arm anyway.
   Further; The augment, please add 1/2/3/4 max shields placeable (1 extra per rank, unchangeable by mods). Why? Since allies can pick them up, having a higher shield-placement cap means they can mess with your other shields less easily, even in unintentional moments. More shields allows them to carry one each, while also allowing some shields to remain to defend a stationary target.
4. Only got one question; How long would you suggest this stunning effect to last? Because, while it's cool to have it aid Shock's damage, Discharge is very nifty right now as a CC-tool (even if it only lasts 5-ish seconds, I like it mostly for its panic CC).
   As for the damage-scaling, either one is fine. One is simpler (which is good for a starter-frame), albeit really powerful. The other one has more build-options, and fits with Shock's scaling more organically, but might be a bit complex to add on a starter-frame (Although, Mag is not ultra-simple either so... who cares, heh?)? *shrug* Either way sounds good though.
5. I see why you say tentative, because couldn't this be a bit too powerful, and too spammable? After all, it would create this loop:
   a) Cast Electric Shield and pick it up.
   b) Fuel Electric Shield by letting enemies fire at it
   c) Discharge a group of enemies and stand among them
   d) Cast Shock -> Damage gets boosted by Electric Shield's damage -> Shock zaps enemies who are Discharged -> Discharge damage now (re)fuel's Electric Shield's storage. Continue to cast this empowered Shock until they all die.
   e) Repeat from point c
   
   While I understand you are emphasizing his "alternative to gunplay", this is maybe just a tad too potent? I mean we already have Octavia and Nidus, so maybe I shouldn't be too concerned, heh. Also, the E-shield can run out due to energy-issues, so that holds it somewhat in check too.

Regardless, I really like what you suggested here overall. I'd be down for this no doubt. Very organic and interactive.

1. Purely Electric damage. And not quite as you explained - I purely referred to the damage that's stored within Electric Shield by Shocking it while Volt's passive is active, not enemy damage. On the other hand, that's an opportunity for the augment to shine a little.
2. Yup.
3. I'm actually kinda okay with the bonus trade-offs of both losing your primary, and allowing allies to pick up augmented shields (since if nobody does, that's 10 shields - kind of a lot!).
4. Probably about 8-10 seconds. Twelve is a tad long and I can understand DE's fears, but 8 seconds is a plenty strong stun.
5. Such a feedback loop is actually what I was thinking about. It creates a circuit: Volt to shields to enemies and back. It would allow Volt to use his ultimate in order to briefly supercharge his main attack, and then pick up his shield to retain the bonus as long as he can maintain the cost (or set more shields to multiply the burst, but only reliably save one).

Oh, and a couple extra notes:

• Hold-casting Shock will also highlight/display markers above the targets the next cast will hit. (In order to address concerns about Shock being "random" and "unwieldy". 'Cuz it's not like it's electricity or anything.)
• Tentative: Shock refunds a small amount of energy for every target it chains to.
• Base energy capacity increased to 150->225 to diminish the gap between base and Prime.

Still considering how much of an energy hog such changes should make him, as an intended balancing feature.

Edited December 1, 2017 by Archwizard

[taiiat]

there's never any reason to have our Weapon usage restricted. like a broken record - the vast majority of Secondary Weapons have been better than Primary Weapons for years.
oh no, i've been restricted to my objectively superior Weapon! what a punishment.

whether it's Mobile Defense, Volt, or anything else there's no reason to restrict Weapon usage. hell even dying doesn't have a reason to technically, except for that holding a full size Weapon while bleeding out would look really awkward.

 

Sortie Modifiers is a different matter, not talking about that to be clear. though without a default Melee set always available Gun only Modifiers are also -Mobility in a game that is fundamentally built on Mobility but meh that's a different Thread.

Edited December 2, 2017 by taiiat

[Aquasurge]

As an avid Volt fan/main i would like to add few more things:

To his passive:

Give volt the ability to absorb and discharge electric procs capped at 5 procs. Volt can absorb procs by coming into contact with enemies with electric procs applied to them or running and can discharge a proc by using his weapons or abilities. each time volt absorbs a proc he gains a small amount of energy and bonus stack of 200 electric damage. This would work extremely well with his kit as an offense, utilitarian and defensive tool and would be fitting for his namesake/theme (feedback circuit wink,wink.)

To Shock:

Shock is now able to charge up which will increase the damage by consuming multiple stacks depending on how long the ability is charged for.

To Discharge:

give invulnerability on cast - volt is squishy and some times will not have enough energy for an electric sheild. By giving Discharge invulnerability on cast, volt needs less energy to keep himself alive. ala gara (who doesn't really need it but still has it anyway despite having 90% dmg reduction).

also if the damage becomes "overpowered" , let the damage cap be affected by the number of damage instances attacking the target.

Edited December 2, 2017 by Aquasurge

[Azamagon]

12 hours ago, Archwizard said:

1. Purely Electric damage. And not quite as you explained - I purely referred to the damage that's stored within Electric Shield by Shocking it while Volt's passive is active, not enemy damage. On the other hand, that's an opportunity for the augment to shine a little.
2. Yup.
3. I'm actually kinda okay with the bonus trade-offs of both losing your primary, and allowing allies to pick up augmented shields (since if nobody does, that's 10 shields - kind of a lot!).
4. Probably about 8-10 seconds. Twelve is a tad long and I can understand DE's fears, but 8 seconds is a plenty strong stun.
5. Such a feedback loop is actually what I was thinking about. It creates a circuit: Volt to shields to enemies and back. It would allow Volt to use his ultimate in order to briefly supercharge his main attack, and then pick up his shield to retain the bonus as long as he can maintain the cost (or set more shields to multiply the burst, but only reliably save one).

Oh, and a couple extra notes:

• Hold-casting Shock will also highlight/display markers above the targets the next cast will hit. (In order to address concerns about Shock being "random" and "unwieldy". 'Cuz it's not like it's electricity or anything.)
• Tentative: Shock refunds a small amount of energy for every target it chains to.
• Base energy capacity increased to 150->225 to diminish the gap between base and Prime.

Still considering how much of an energy hog such changes should make him, as an intended balancing feature.

1. Just the passive's stored damage? While certainly much better than its current state, that's still just a flat value. Dare I say that it could benefit from BOTH of our suggestions: Stored damage from Volt's passive damage (I'll call this SDVP) AND stored damage from enemy damage dealt (SDED). SDVP would not be consumed by the Shock, but rather just constantly be there to boost Shock's damage, while all SDED is removed once Shock is cast through it.
   Hmmm... I can see how that's too much as well. I guess why that is why you want the scaling to come in via the combo of Shock and Discharge?
2. Considering I still see a bunch comments about people wanting to opt out from it, I can't really see any downsides with this change, really.
3. While I'm "ok" with the downside of the no-primary, it also gets rather stale that way. He has plenty downsides already (energydrain, slower movement speed, much smaller albeit mobile shield). 10 shields is quite a lot I guess, but it's still not as awesome as Frost's default SnowGlobes, in terms of area coverage.
4. That's more than enough for me :)
5. Ah cool, so that was intended, neat. There is just two things that bother me a bit with this design:
   a) While this gives him some scalability, it requires a LOT of micro-management and energy-management to get there, compared to other "alternative to gunplay"-frames, like Nidus (At least if the Shock's E-Shield-bonus was only based on the passive, while also with/instead using enemy damage dealt to the shield it has potential to become very potent, possibly too potent.)
   b) While this circuit-technique is neat, I dunno if DE wants his shield to be used as a battery, rather than to actually use it for what it is; a defensive barrier. If he focuses on dealing damage with this circuit-technique, he will mostly be unable to defend targets with new shields. I'd rather he did NOT have this circuit-technique, at least not via his E-Shield, neat as that may be. If the circuit-technique could be attained in another way, like with the help of his passive (as per @Aquasurge's idea of also charging his passive by getting close to electric proc'd enemies, for example), I'd like it much better.

As for the extra notes; Those are all interesting too (the Shock-energy refund might be a tad much if he gets much better scaling, maybe?).
On a complete sidenote: I forgot to mention, I also liked one of your previous ideas of making Shock cost Shields instead of Energy, but what you have going here is much better. Just wanted to say that real quick regardless :P

So, with the things in mind said above, I'd propose a different take on this (very rough ideas, mind you, most likely far too overpowered):

• Passive - Now this is where his damage-mechanics is centered around. This is how I had it in mind:
  • Fuels the passive via:
    • Running around (like now)
    • Getting somewhat close to Electric Proc'd enemies (to make it not crazy; only procs from Shock and Discharge)
    • Electric Shield's augment (like now)
  • The passive's cap needs to be WAY higher, like 100 times higher at least (as this is where his ability-damage would come from)
  • The passive is only consumed by (and thus only boosts) his Shock or Discharge ability (sorry Volt fishermen!)
• Shock - Works just like now. In addition, Power Duration could potentially alter the number of targets it can chain over to (with a minimum cap of X enemies)
• Speed - As you suggested; Double duration and energycost.
• Electric Shield - Only drains energy over time (not per distance) and pauses the timer of the shield. No longer restricts weaponchoices either.
• Discharge - Works more like you suggested; 8-10 second stun unaffected by Power Duration, but damage-cap removed and the wave works more like M.Prime (scaling with both Range and Duration). Anything else added on top of that that would just be a bonus.

So, that left him nearly untouched in regards to his abilities, except for his passive. And those changes to his passive are the key to his newfound power; He can refuel his passive with getting close to Electric Proc'd enemies, only being close to Shock/Discharge-struck enemies refunds 50% (per enemy!) of the passive's storage. This allows him to do the "circuit"-technique, without necessitating an E-Shield being present. E-Shield would instead be more complimentary, as in, allowing him to get close to the enemies more safely. His Speed ability further helps with this, allowing him to run in quicker.
If running around to refuel/boost your passive from Electric Proc'd enemies is too risky, E-Shield's augment is where it's at (or, could ofc be used on top of getting close to enemies), since now you can stay at range and fuel your passive with the damage of your enemies (thus also allowing some form of scaling, depending on his passive's cap).

Please, tear this apart as much as you can, as this was just a really rough idea which I want to be picked at, so that we maybe could find a good way to make him a true "alternative to gunplay", finding that sweet spot so he is neither too complex nor too powerful/easymode.

Edited December 2, 2017 by Azamagon

[Archwizard]

15 minutes ago, Azamagon said:

While this circuit-technique is neat, I dunno if DE wants his shield to be used as a battery, rather than to actually use it for what it is; a defensive barrier.

Well, the way I see it is mostly a matter of "two birds, one stone."

The two major complaints about picking up Electric Shield right now pertain to its cost (which actively attacks the rest of his kit), and the fact that it still has a maximum Duration on top of that cost (despite a complete ability to just make a new one before the shield fades, creating a nonsensical annoyance). I wanted to resolve that by turning the Shield into a pure toggle while Volt is carrying it.

I just realized there was an opportunity there, since A) under the above change, a well-managed shield could be carried by Volt indefinitely (while still providing only partial cover, and preventing use of other weapons as a tradeoff), B) the shield already acts as a damage amplifier for other ranged attacks (rather than just a shield), and C) the shield already stores a portion of Shock's damage (allowing it to double as a trap or anti-melee barricade). I took all three together to their logical extreme, which seemed like a more intuitive means to create scaling (rewarding combinations he already performs) than introducing something new to his kit.

Bear in mind that the rate at which Virulence increases in damage actually uses a similar method - it only goes up by a flat amount with each stack, just with the potential to go up several stacks in one crowd or before one target dies. While Volt would have more worries about cost, the majority of Nidus' kit is self-serving, built entirely in order to afford himself the most damaging Virulence casts in the fastest minor; Volt has superior utility outright, which would be balanced against the greater cost to charge him up quickly (which, between up to 6 shields multiplying the same cast, could be done with comparable expedience entirely on Volt's own merits, without needing to resort to scaling off of the target's damage), lower survivability and the potential for greater loss.

[Azamagon]

59 minutes ago, Archwizard said:

Well, the way I see it is mostly a matter of "two birds, one stone."

1) The two major complaints about picking up Electric Shield right now pertain to its cost (which actively attacks the rest of his kit), and the fact that it still has a maximum Duration on top of that cost (despite a complete ability to just make a new one before the shield fades, creating a nonsensical annoyance). I wanted to resolve that by turning the Shield into a pure toggle while Volt is carrying it.

2) I just realized there was an opportunity there, since A) under the above change, a well-managed shield could be carried by Volt indefinitely (while still providing only partial cover, and preventing use of other weapons as a tradeoff), B) the shield already acts as a damage amplifier for other ranged attacks (rather than just a shield), and C) the shield already stores a portion of Shock's damage (allowing it to double as a trap or anti-melee barricade). I took all three together to their logical extreme, which seemed like a more intuitive means to create scaling (rewarding combinations he already performs) than introducing something new to his kit.

Bear in mind that the rate at which Virulence increases in damage actually uses a similar method - it only goes up by a flat amount with each stack, just with the potential to go up several stacks in one crowd or before one target dies. While Volt would have more worries about cost, the majority of Nidus' kit is self-serving, built entirely in order to afford himself the most damaging Virulence casts in the fastest minor; Volt has superior utility outright, which would be balanced against the greater cost to charge him up quickly (which, between up to 6 shields multiplying the same cast, could be done with comparable expedience entirely on Volt's own merits, without needing to resort to scaling off of the target's damage), lower survivability and the potential for greater loss.

Overall, yeah, I can see what you are saying.

Before I go into saying my ideas here, I want you to understand my stance on Volt:
I am someone that uses Volt mostly for his utility (i.e. his Defensive shield, Speed and CC), rather than for his offensive potentials, so I personally don't mind how his ability-casting damage comes through. But I can see others, who would like to use him as such, would be bothered by his inability to use the full extent of his utility if going for damage. *shrug*

That out of the way:

1) I'm not opposing this in the least (as you might've noticed). The fact that his picked-up shield has a drain AND still has a timer is incredibly cumbersome to deal with. What you have suggested is something I have suggested in the past as well, so I obviously really agreed with what you are saying here :P

2) I like your idea (and your thoughts here), so I was thinking of a way how to do everything you suggested for him (including keeping your "battery-shield" idea), while making it slightly less risky in regards to losing your superfueled E-Shield, while also allowing him to use his whole kit to the full extent (mainly, being able to place different shields elsewhere). With that in mind, I had this simple idea:

What if casting Shock or Discharge on/through a shield also refreshed the duration of it?

That way, you still have to carefully manage a superfueled E-shield with your energy to keep up its potential power indefinitely, while also allowing him to occasionally put down that superfueled E-shield down for a moment or two, so he can place other shields to defend something else etc.
With that, I think your suggestion of ramping it up slowly via transfering only the passive's value from each Shock (making it similar to Nidus' slow buildup indeed) is completely fine. Because then you have a slow buildup, but it's also not TOO cumbersome to keep up the E-shield's life. The risk of losing all of it is still there (dieing, falling off the world, Nullifiers, among other things). And then, his E-shield's augment, while incredibly potent for this, also wouldn't be as overpowered as it would be in my suggestions.

So, what do you say?
Your suggestions + Letting Shock or Discharge refresh the duration of E-shields? Imo, that strikes a pretty good balance of management versus ease of use + not restricting his kit's potential.

EDIT:
Also, as per this thread's showcasing and discussion: https://forums.warframe.com/topic/888606-theoretical-analysis-of-the-effects-of-the-removal-of-volts-discharge-cap-video-added/
I honestly think Discharge needs to be tampered with quite carefully, but first and foremost needs to be consistent. I think what @Mudfam says is good; Rather low duration and low damage (at base), but let scale fully with duration, and make it scale with enemy density and remove ALL the caps. Meaning, good against crowds, rather bleh against singular/few enemies (which is more Shock's job, especially with your suggestions via its interactions with E-shield) and always consistent in its useage.

Edited December 2, 2017 by Azamagon

[Gurpgork]

3 hours ago, Azamagon said:

But I can see others, who would like to use him as such, would be bothered by his inability to use the full extent of his utility if going for damage.

You only really have to give up damage for utility if you are trying to use his abilities themselves directly to deal damage. His strongest damage potential comes from Transistor Shield and its ridiculous synergy with Hunter Munitions, which can give you slash procs that tick for about 40k. 

But I digress. 

Edited December 2, 2017 by Gurpgork

[Archwizard]

On 12/1/2017 at 3:46 AM, Archwizard said:

In light of today's "buff", some new thoughts:

• Shock inherits any damage stored within Electric Shields it fires through.
• Speed cost and duration both doubled.
• Electric Shield no longer has a cost per meter traveled while being carried. Carrying the shield once again incurs an energy cost per-second, but also pauses the ability timer until set down or the shield is recast. Damage stored within a shield may be stacked.
• Discharge reworked: Volt releases an electrical wave that is affected by Range and Duration a la Molecular Prime. Enemies struck by the wave are continuously stunned and receive Electric damage over a period affected by ability rank ONLY; no longer has a damage cap. Either:
  • Whenever a target is struck by Shock, they discharge a burst of damage to nearby enemies for a percentage of their maximum health and shields. OR
  • All instances of Electric damage received by affected targets will be discharged to nearby enemies.
• Tentative: These enemy discharges will contribute damage to Electric Shields in range.

It dawned on me that not only would pausing the ability timer while carrying Electric Shield be a simple QoL fix to a major complaint about the ability, but it also provides him with the perfect opportunity to create and carry a battery at all times.

Another potential iteration, combining some of my pre-buff and post-buff thoughts:

• Shock inherits the critical damage multipliers of any Electric Shield it passes through. Hold-casting Shock will gradually consume Volt's shields in order to increase the damage of the following cast, a la Scarab Swarm.
• Speed cost and duration both doubled.
• Electric Shield no longer has a cost per-meter traveled while being carried. Carrying the shield once again incurs an energy cost per-second, but also pauses the ability timer until set down or the shield is recast.
• Discharge reworked: Volt releases an electrical wave that is affected by Range and Duration a la Molecular Prime; base radius reduced. Enemies struck by the wave are continuously stunned and receive Electric damage over a period affected by ability rank ONLY; no longer has a damage cap. Any Electrical damage dealt to targets affected by Discharge will be added to the remaining DoT upon and arc damage from those targets.

While admittedly a reduction in damage potential and as compelling as the battery is, I realize it's pointless to write Volt off solely as an alternative to gunplay so long as his shields amplify ballistic damage - but considering his first ability and passive both deal flat damage, critical buffs would actually work considerably in his favor. 
The idea of Volt casting Discharge and then just burning through everything he has in quick succession to chain damage across the battlefield... still rather works as a caster playstyle, particularly with the flat damage of his passive (which would charge every tick simultaneously) and any of the augments at his disposal (hello Capacitance+Shock synergy).

Now the real question, is whether the DoT steps too deliberately on Mag's toes.

[Archwizard]

And for Gara:

• Shattered Lash's uncharged attack now throws the blade, becoming a Puncture projectile (affected by melee mods) with Punch Through. Hold attack unchanged.
• Splinter Storm now has a maximum number of applications that may be active at one time, affected by rank. The field no longer pushes enemies away, and applies its damage bonus to any enemy within the glass field when cast on an enemy. 
• Spectrorage mirrors will "bind" to the first target that damages each, causing the two to share a health pool. 
• Mass Vitrify's panels are affected by the maximum health, shields and armor of all enemies frozen by the cast.

The only concern remaining in this is how to deal with Gara's Touch of Death, or if it even needs to be addressed in the first place. Personally I think a good way to deal with it would be to have the damage bonus of Splinter Storm deplete to replenish the health of Mass Vitrify panels in range - but on the other hand, the increasing damage is not only a method of damage scaling (as if Gara necessarily needs that...) but also the only incentive to use its synergy with Mass Vitrify.

[ACULonSeer]

[Removed]

Edited December 10, 2017 by ACULonSeer

[Gurpgork]

[Removed]

Edited December 10, 2017 by Gurpgork

[ACULonSeer]

Okay, lets just pretend i said nothing about toxic lash.

RIPLINE:

If there was one ability that has terrible ramifications if used incorrectly, it would have to be ripline. If you miss your target by an inch with ripline you get yanked to THEIR location. Since i use it mainly to remove support enemies from their protectors, that means i just accidentally threw myself into a horde of infested, right at the feet of the Healer i was aiming at. I suggest being able to switch Ripline's firing mode like Quiver, where mode1 is grappling hook and mode2 is harpoon. Hitting an enemy with grapple does nothing, same with harpooning the environment. This would allow the ability to be used much more tactically, as well as prevent the occasional miscast. Multi-function abilities already exist, so this should definitely be added.

 

[Gurpgork]

1 hour ago, ACULonSeer said:

Okay, lets just pretend i said nothing about toxic lash.

Very well. 

[FinalplayerRyu]

Nove, Molecular Prime:

Instead of 200%, all primed enemies receive 150% damage and all other effects be removed. No Movement speed reduction, no attack speed reduction, no explosion upon enemy death.

Its my personal poster child of most things that are wrong about Warframe. I am really not certain why that ability has been kept the way it is for so long, 200% damage would already be a fantastic ability on its own, doubling the dps of the whole team. Why do enemies have to explode in addition to that and worse: why do they have to be slowed down in both movement and attack speed all at the same time? 30% is the base reduction, but noone plays her at the base, its either 75% which results in like an estimated 85-90% effectiveness reduction for enemies or negative 30% for faster enemies. In general i think the cap on speed reduction should in ballpark around 30-50% for everything. All that effectiveness in a single ability that covers most if not the whole battlefield.

Just for clarity, because i am sure someone will bring it up: endless mission hours in are a bad argument as its something that hardly anyone ever does and the real endgame that i see played most often revolves around lvl100 enemies which also become little vulnerable kittens waiting for their heads to be smashed in by overpowered gods we call Warframes.

[Terrornaut]

As someone with over 800 hours on Ember that has tried different builds for long amounts of time, the ember rework is clearly spotted as coming from people who don't play Ember much and know what she does.

Ember scales. When people build her ineffectively for duration and efficiency, yes, she accomplishes nothing and doesn't scale because she isn't doing anything and then now has to rely on firequake. She becomes very inefficient when built for high efficiency because you are building for quantity on long lasting spam-not-necessary abilities.  Firequake is nice but anyone who says its near required on her is playing this overkill efficiency build that does nothing but hey, free energy (quantity over quality)!

Don't tickle enemies, kill them!

Accelerant would be entirely and utterly ridiculous if it boosted other damage types. Sure I'd love it, but being able to boost all sources of damage by over 8x (my current multiplier with accelerant and flash accelerant) would be criminally nonsensical. As it is now I chew through level 100 heavily armored mods, and when a heavy comes around and I start stripping armor, they're dead in seconds.

Fireball could do a lot more, and is redundant and doesn't do anything beyond provide an emergency proc while reloading (which has saved me many many times, I'll admit), and fireblast is just bad and never necessary so i won't argue that.

If you aren't putting heat on weapons as Ember, do not even comment on her kit. Plain and simple. She requires unity in how she is put together to do well, and what she boosts in heat damage will pretty much always outdamage things like corrosive and radiation (though building her for corrosive and heat status is the most damaging way to go, not radiation even on 75% rad boosting enemies). 

With power strength, you boost your weapon damage up incredibly, have guaranteed consistent heat procs from wof (even with low enough power strength to get 65% on a wof tick, thats still near 200% chance every second) to keep enemies stuck, and keep in mind, wof damage is pretty ridiculous because its doing its damage per tick (about 3 a sec) and another +50% of its own damage every second. If i strip a fair chunk of damage off a l100 bombard or gunner, that's 8-12k damage per tick, really about 25k+heat proc adding another 6k or so for around 30k damage per second. Thats while cc'd in place, and while I'm shooting them with much more damage (take a Tigris damage for example and put heat on it and accelerant it and see what happens), or while I'm void dashing and stripping armor and being immune to damage.

Throw in firequake once you have power strength and you're acceleranting mobs and now you've got (for me) 8x ground finisher damage while killing everything around you. You will be out finishing Inaros and Valk while doing more overall damage, at all levels when your allies are also suffering from scaling due to armor.

How is that not scaling?

I'm not trying to be a rude arrogant &#! but if you say Ember doesn't scale you plainly havent tried to make her scale, or looked at and done math and know how things work out in WF. If i can drop Heavily armored targets in under 5s with aoe powers alone, and one shot light armored powers with an ability just used for lulz, how is that not scaling?

When played for scaling damage, there are very few frames and players in a position to outdamage and (more importantly) outkill an Ember, and basically then they have to out aoe her (long term banshee r quake, long range saryn with high toxin procs, chroma using amprex or atomos or other aoe weapons, a very efficient ash). Pretty much all frames thar have big damage boosts also give Ember that same damage boost, so, hell, go ahead and outmelee loki and other invis frames while you're at it.

Edited December 10, 2017 by Terrornaut

[taiiat]

9 hours ago, FinalplayerRyu said:

Nova, Molecular Prime:
Instead of 200%, all primed enemies receive 150% damage and all other effects be removed.
Its my personal poster child of most things that are wrong about Warframe. I am really not certain why that ability has been kept the way it is for so long, 200% damage would already be a fantastic ability on its own, doubling the dps of the whole team. Why do enemies have to explode in addition to that and worse: why do they have to be slowed down in both movement and attack speed all at the same time?

30% is the base reduction, but noone plays her at the base, its either 75% which results in like an estimated 85-90% effectiveness reduction for enemies

yes, Prime has always been a very convenient situation of bringing Damage Multipliers and CC at the same time. it does the vast majority of what Players would ever want as one Ability.
that being said, if all it did was apply a Damage Multiplier, it would be a terrible Ability. no spectacle, doesn't do a whole lot, Et Cetera. making the Ability boring and single purposed isn't a solution for a too good to be true Ability.

uh, no. 75% slow makes Enemies exactly 75% slower and 75% less effective. estimated 75% because it's exactly 75%. not 74%, not 76%. 75%.

8 hours ago, Terrornaut said:

Ember scales.

and while I'm shooting them with much more damage

Throw in firequake once you have power strength and you're acceleranting mobs and now you've got (for me) 8x ground finisher damage

Flash Accelerant

no, that isn't scaling. that is stacking as much Power Strength as you can and then relying on Energize & Energizing Dash + Energy Pulse to use the Warframe. instilling a situation that the Warframe is incapable of sustaining, and then trying to pretend that is the logical way to use something.
that isn't "scaling". that's dealing some extra Damage, to raise the maximum Level that your Abilities are effective. at a very much not linear curve, much less so.

"this is good because in this one specific way that relies on accessories and a Powercreep Augment it is more effective than otherwise" is not a useful argument. that exactly shows that there are problems, if you need to hyper specialize something to make it perform well, that shows something is wrong.

flat values aren't scaling. period. because that's a fact.

 

you create a poor example, where you're relying on a Weapon which already Kills the Enemies without issue, so that the Weapon is doing just as much if not more work in your situation.
as well as removing Armor through an exterior means is off topic to this subject.

 

World on Fire is not a Melee Weapon. you don't make a strong argument when you say everyone else in the world but you is wrong but then are wrong yourself.

Flash Accelerant is stupid and a select few Players that are cancer to this game were able to whine and inbox spam a select few Staff Members until they made Flash Accelerant apply the shared Damage to Ember, making it a required Mod rather than a Co-Op Mod.
i'm so glad that this Community has some Players that are so offensive and rude to berate Staff Members until they get something stupid that shouldn't happen.

[taiiat]

(why exactly did this double post? meh w/e)

Edited December 11, 2017 by taiiat

[Endless_Destruction]

A mechanic scales if its objective effectiveness increases with enemy level, keeping its relative effectiveness constant.

Following this logic, Loki does not scale. All his powers are equally effective at level 10 as well as at level 1000, but they don't increase in objective power. His abilities function independent of enemy level. (side note, would love more warframes with abilities that function like this)

Furthermore, I would argue Nidus does not scale. His power ramps up, but at a much higher rate than enemy power level, and he hits a cap of 100 stacks. Nidus' objective effectiveness stays constant after that, while his relative effectiveness drops.

An example of a warframe that does scale is Octavia-her Mallet is dependent upon enemy damage which is some function of enemy level. Its relative effectiveness stays constant with enemy level. It can be argued that Hydroid scales as well-his Undertow deals more damage without a limit: the more time an enemy spends submerged, the higher the enemy level is likely to be, and the more damage they will take, ergo providing damage output that increases with level.

Now Ember: Ember does not scale, because her objective effectiveness is constant: she will deal x amount of damage at enemy level 10 as well as at enemy level 1000. Her relative effectiveness decreases as enemy level increases.

People seem to be using "scales" strangely-they use it to refer to abilities that seemingly function well at enemy levels much higher than one would normally encounter. In that sense, yes Ember can "scale," but that is an improper use of the word.

Edited December 11, 2017 by Endless_Destruction

[taiiat]

1 hour ago, Endless_Destruction said:

A mechanic scales if its objective effectiveness increases with enemy level, keeping its relative effectiveness constant.

Following this logic, Loki does not scale. All his powers are equally effective at level 10 as well as at level 1000, but they don't increase in objective power. His abilities function independent of enemy level. (side note, would love more warframes with abilities that function like this)

Furthermore, I would argue Nidus does not scale. His power ramps up, but at a much higher rate than enemy power level, and he hits a cap of 100 stacks. Nidus' objective effectiveness stays constant after that, while his relative effectiveness drops.

Utility Effects don't scale technically yes, but for the purposes of a Video Game they do in the sense that their Effect does not decrease with Enemy Level.

while Nidus Scales and doesn't at the same time as he does have 'Scaling', but to a limited degree. more of a gray area IMO.

[Archwizard]

I believe I've posted a rant about this before, but to address @Endless_Destruction and @Terrornaut:

I arrange abilities into four primary categories:

• Static Damage effects are things like your classical Fireball: Once you've locked in your mods for the mission, then aside from external buffs - no matter how or where you use it - the only thing that affects its output is the enemy's resistance to it (in other words, its damage can only go down on its own - which is why I don't include stacking abilities like Virulence in this category until it reaches its ceiling, which takes considerable time). This category also includes things like Freeze's initial or Well of Life's ongoing flat cap, or Spectrorage and Molt's fixed health pools; if an enemy's level increases, these effects cannot meaningfully keep up with enemy damage output.
• Static Utility effects are closer to Loki's kit. Things like invisibility, invulnerability, mobility or crowd control; no matter what level enemy you use them on, their effect on the AI stays the same. Scott's strategy to deal with the shortcomings of Static Damage is to attach status effects (frequently with CC potential) to the effects.
• Scaling Damage is dependent either on the enemy level directly, or the amount of damage you can pump into them before they die. The damage output of Absorb and Shadows of the Dead obviously scale with the enemy output or resistance, but Iron Skin and similar skills would also count since their health pools are affected. Shield Polarize at its peak was an extreme example, and even today we have Finisher attacks like Snow Globe that can inflict massive damage to targets. Antimatter Drop is also an example: sure it deals a flat amount of damage outright, and each drop necessarily has a ceiling, but even without the augment its damage potential can be easily adjusted to fit the situation, scaling with your damage.
• Scaling Utility is a broader category, but it basically covers any %-based non-"direct damage" effect; things that become more valuable as enemy level increases. Damage buffs and armor reduction effects scale to you or your team's output and have an equal multiplier on TTK as level increases (5x damage is 1/5th the kill time). Mitigation and armor effects not only increase the value of a health pool, but significantly diminish the value of enemies.

Note that some abilities can fit in multiple categories at once; for instance, Molecular Prime can fit in three categories between the explosion damage, slow debuff and damage buff.
(Ultimately, where an effect like Mind Control lands (being a crowd control and a source of scaling damage) is irrelevant to this discussion.)

Now, aside from the debate on whether Static Utilities and Scaling abilities completely eliminate the intended effect of enemy level increases (ie the ongoing Loki and current Gara debates), the major point of the current discussion relevant here is this: 

In what cases are Static Damage effects considered justified versus being underpowered?
Something like Renewal keeps up in part because of utilities like the armor buff multiplying this healing, but bear in mind that the ability to continuously apply its healing as needed means you can efficiently mend greater wounds for additional energy from the same cast. On the other hand, the damage of a skill like World on Fire has a maximum level of effectiveness at best which (in the grand scheme anyway) barely shifts with mods, and serves as a mere vehicle for status effects at worst - which wouldn't be such an issue, if Ember didn't have 3 direct damage skills that deliver the same status effect (which also deals flat damage, but doesn't stack).
The major consideration for this category is ammo economy; a skill like Fireball is massively inefficient compared to a gun not only in terms of stat allocation and available damage multipliers, but the time and cost to dish out the number of Fireballs needed to kill an enemy of considerable level compared to the amount of ammo needed to do the same. Virulence and Antimatter Drop have a base and ceiling to their damage, but by the time they reach it they exceed most weapons, Antimatter Drop multiplies the value of each shell of ammo spent on it, and Virulence's ability to restore its own energy cost makes it highly efficient until it reaches that point, putting it at no risk.

Edited December 14, 2017 by Archwizard

[taiiat]

short inspired snippet of a thought - i'll flesh this out... some other time. getting on paper for now.

riddle me this, what if the Damage values of Fireball,Firebast,World on Fire were significantly reduced, with a 'Passive' which makes her Fire DoT scale from 100% of the Fire Damage value, rather than 50%.
then, any applied Fire DoT Ember deals, also adds 1% of the current Health of the Enemy to what the Fire DoT scales from.

plus applying Fire DoT from Fireball,Fireblast,World on Fire on an Enemy would do the 'flame strengthening' mentioned earlier, in no particular order that the number of Fire DoT applied from each separate Ability would increase the strength of the DoT. probably +50% for each, meaning that hitting an Enemy with all three Abilities means a DoT for 2.5x of what any one of them would be. this should also achieve being able to always override existing Fire Status with stronger ones because each additional separate one makes the DoT stronger than it was from the previous.

 

sounds neat but needs a full math tree to see if it ends up in a good place that is flexible and useful.

Edited December 14, 2017 by taiiat

[Archwizard]

On 12/13/2017 at 7:54 PM, taiiat said:

-snip-

So, if I'm understanding what you're saying, the DoT inflicted by her abilities deals 1% of the target's health over time and stacks if you use her other abilities.

Sounds like an interesting way to blend in the multiple sources of Heat damage she has, but to be honest I'm not really sure about this one.

The concept of her having reduced base damage but a stacking HP-scaled effect actually puts her closer to a case of (for lack of a better term) "true" scaling - having her effectiveness be wholly dependent on enemy level - which is not necessarily a good thing. Sure, it gives her more theoretical output at higher levels, but A) the reduced base damage leaves her significantly weakened at lower levels (which aims to address the World on Fire issue but makes Ember more difficult to level and affects her other abilities simultaneously, so she has no more incentive to use them either) and B) the fact that she's hinging everything on a low-value DoT requires both significant time and energy (particularly in crowds), where Heat procs aren't consistent in actually CCing targets till they burn to death (and if they were it would arguably be OP).

Plus it leaves the player with little distinction between the three abilities for practical purposes beyond "you must use ALL of them for max effect" like Saryn gets, and actually encourages keeping World on Fire up at all times.

[taiiat]

11 hours ago, Archwizard said:

So, if I'm understanding what you're saying, the DoT inflicted by her abilities deals 1% of the target's health over time and stacks if you use her other abilities.

 

so she has no more incentive to use them either
hinging everything on a low-value DoT requires both significant time and energy
where Heat procs aren't consistent in CC

 

Plus it leaves the player with little distinction between the three abilities for practical purposes beyond "you must use ALL of them for max effect" like Saryn gets
and actually encourages keeping World on Fire up at all times.

pretty much, so if we reduced the Base values by like 60%, DoT scales full. applying all three sources of Fire Status would deal 2.5x Damage, plus Headshots if you Headshot with Fireball. whether the Headshot would deal double overall (for 5x) or double the bonus that Fireball gives (so 100% instead of 50%) is up for debate.

note that this includes the Base Damage and scaled values, so (160 + 160 + 80 + 3%) * 2.5 (or 3/5x for Headshot with Fireball).

at any rate, Fire Blast still needs to be 40-50E anyways - like, regardless it just has to happen. but yes, you will be spending Energy. i'm pretty okay with every Warframe having some sort of method to refund bits of Energy, because it lets them have Abilities be more interesting and used together, rather than having to rely on being the rocket ship all by themself. anything less isn't really going to address 'the purpose of having small Abilities' like Fireball or Sleight of Hand or Spectral Scream or.... well you know the ones i'm talking about.

 

interesting, fair points. the sort of counter points i was looking for.

 

let's be honest, of those, Fire Blast and Accelerant are the only ones with distinction anyways. the others are just magical Damage. and i don't see a problem with using all of the Abilities in Combat situations having the best results anyways. the results of half mixtures or lone uses just needs to be useful too.
don't really have much problem with World on Fire being able to be active for long periods - it comes with downsides that could be made relevant provided the Ability itself doesn't just stroll through the Solar Map. because the opportunities presented by Ember really being all about the Fire and doing things with it would only be a stronger theme, and pushing for Abilities having more use + optional depth that you are rewarded for is what i  want out of any Video Game anyways.

 

infact just the other day i saw a clip about Fighting Games that had one point i found really interesting and important there - i don't really care for Fighting Games but, i agreed with the notion that removing 1 Frame length windows in Combos for 3 Frame is unnecessary... and that instead having things built on 3 Frame normally with extras on top of that for 1 Frame is the best of all worlds. you get accessibility and flexibility, but you still have the total depth and mastery involved. you make it easier to use, but still have that challenge to master.

Edited December 20, 2017 by taiiat

[Archwizard]

On 12/20/2017 at 2:56 PM, taiiat said:

let's be honest, of those, Fire Blast and Accelerant are the only ones with distinction anyways.

Exactly. And just reducing her other parts to raw damage doesn't provide them with any more distinction at all.

The fact that they already don't have any is a point I wish to resolve.

On 12/20/2017 at 2:56 PM, taiiat said:

and i don't see a problem with using all of the Abilities in Combat situations having the best results anyways.

There's a difference between building a kit in preparation of scenarios where all four abilities are practical and can compound upon one another (like Loki), and creating a kit where all four abilities must always be used in tandem to get a fixed, predetermined mileage (like Saryn). The former encourages tactical use and rewards tactical response/creativity with a frame's kit; the latter sets a ceiling and penalizes you for not spending 150+ energy per group (regardless of ease of regaining that energy), making each ability a chore.

Warframe isn't a Fighting Game. We manage resources for basic attacks and regularly deal with massive crowds of enemies two to three times our level in a OHKO race. Any significant change to the pace of combat has to be weighted against the time and energy required to pull it off, and the long-term reward - and I don't think your recommendation of scaling would pay off for quite some time.

Edited December 22, 2017 by Archwizard

[taiiat]

5 hours ago, Archwizard said:

There's a difference between building a kit in preparation of scenarios where all four abilities are practical and can compound upon one another (like Loki), and creating a kit where all four abilities must always be used in tandem to get a fixed, predetermined mileage (like Saryn). The former encourages tactical use and rewards tactical response/creativity with a frame's kit; the latter sets a ceiling and penalizes you for not spending 150+ energy per group (regardless of ease of regaining that energy), making each ability a chore.

and what is this difference? is the fact that there's numbers attributed that makes Abilities that are useful alone, but better together 'awful', while on Loki it's "omg better than sliced bread"?

because it's an identical situation, except one has defined numbers, rather than no numbers and only being told "yeah this does some other stuff if you use it together, figure it out".
or are we referring to just Miasma? because Miasma is a terrible Ability anyways, so if that is the entire hinging point, then fine - it's the other 3 Abilities that saying as such doesn't make sense.