Retune *all* The Frames! (11/19: Wildfire)

[Methanoid]

they said in the last devstream that the abilitys are largely different/contrasting on purpose, imho as opposed to changing what we have i'd prefer it if we had more than 4 abilitys to choose from (2 extra, then 2 more extra much later, totaling 6-8), however even with the larger ability pool only allow a max of 4 to ever be fitted at once.

 

the ability positions/order could also affect which of your buttons/keybinds activate them (not far off sentinel precept locations or elemental damage mods), this would suit various people who expressed the desire to have whatever ability they want on specific keybinds.

 

this way people have a selection of abilitys to choose from and can tailor the frames to their own personal tastes and theres becomes less of a 1-2 setup cookie cutter selection that many frames have now.

[ThePresident777]

Missions 2.0, play style sand boxes, one size does not fit all.

[Break-Away]

I think Excalibur could use a melee damage buff when using radial blind. I mean, I'm using like 50 energy for a CC that only stuns for a few seconds. Why not add in a buff for when I go in their swinging? Plus he's the sword master. I don't think he should be out-done by the likes of Loki, Ash, etc.

Edited March 23, 2014 by Break-Away

[Archwizard]

@Azamagon (since your posting inside of a quote means I can't just quote you)

 

Generic mods:

At that point, there'd be no point to the Power In Use error - the only viable limitation to abilities would be a target limit, which would get repetitive really fast. It would encourage spam, AND take away from the diversity of skill limitations (Chaos affecting everything once is a strong counterpoint to Bastille affecting a few targets at any time, giving both frames separate niches in spite of having the same role). At least through this solution, you have to make the choice of losing one ability whilst doing so.

 

Banshee:
The thing is, as a sniper archetype, her "range" should come from her weapons while her skills should create openings, rather than just giving her a ranged blast attack like every second caster. Acoustic Mine creates openings. What you're proposing would just be a ranged attack, which would be a bit redundant given her focus.

 

Ember:
I'm assuming it would affect status chance in a similar rate to its effect on Heat damage - which at max rank, is a 3.5x multiplier. If you halved Fire Blast's status chance, you'd still guarantee a mass knockdown (with high damage) every combo.

 

Frost:
Your "Mind Control" example may only affect one target, but it affects them for nearly 3 times as long and gets damage and a decoy out of them. As I recall, Freeze doesn't have that much effect on Bosses anyway? If it does, I'd say that you'd be right in having it reduced from a 12 second freeze to a 2 second stun - but against standard enemies a reduction would be unnecessary.

 

Nekros:
Okay, to clarify: Necrosis is not a means of adding souls to Nekros' soul cache, it's a way for him to steadily accumulate an army of minions. Each of those minions is indirectly affected by Power Duration, the rate at which their health decreases; "ending it prematurely" using the generic mod you're so eager to nix, in terms of health loss, would mean they die.

The "Power Duration" limitation on the generic mod is just a way to not have permanent effects like Radial Disarm - or even ones you have little control over, like stuns and status procs - completely wiped, but anything less is hit. It creates diversity to have a Nekros want to use the mod less than a Nyx would, or at least for different reasons. Using it would not affect Nekros' soul cache, but it would obliterate any active minions, clear his Terrifies and DoT.

 

Nyx:
You aren't understanding it. Overwhelm, if it doesn't kill the target straightaway, is still only as effective as Psychic Bolts: You have a maximum potential, for 50 energy, of hitting one target for 1200 damage, or up to 6 targets for a mere 200. No damage debuff, no mass chain reaction explosion that hits everyone in the room. You could build up the effect more and more on that target, but keep in mind that 1) your allies will be damaging that target too which would NOT contribute because it only copies Overwhelm's, 2) bolts can still stray to other targets, 3) it's costing you 50 energy per cast which would cost you an awful lot to spam (especially if, as a Nyx, you're built for Duration and don't have the corrupted mod), and 4) I for one am assuming it would be a smaller blast radius than any ultimate.

 

Saryn:
I'm less hung-up on Contagion being melee oriented, than I am on her having particularly "heavy" stats. They're not exactly indicative of someone meant to stay on the back-line - and her speed isn't indicative of someone meant to be dodging a lot of shots.

 

Valkyr:
Playing a berserker should be risky - that's kind of the point of the "health damage taken->weapon damage dealt" (which is, on its own, enough reason to limit her CC) and "sacrifice defenses->damage output" mechanics. A true berserker should revel in being in the middle of the fray, bathing their blades and claws in their enemies' entrails!

[Azamagon]

@Alright, no more responses in the quotes :P

 

Generic mods:

Maybe, but I personally still think the Power in Use is extremely annoying, mainly when there is just one target left. For example on Nyx's Chaos, I'd rather ditch the current effect on that target and cast it anew on a big incoming group. Having to sacrifice a modslot for something that is that niched, urgh, so annoying! Considering how annoying I think Power in Use is though, yeah, I'd for sure use the mod, on every single character it could be useful on, but it would still suck that you'd have to sacrifice a modslot for something that should just be baseline. In my opinion that is.

 

Banshee:

I know what you mean, but I meant it like this:

Sonic Boom - The main emergency skill to keep enemies away from you.

Sonar - The main damage-boost

Silence - The preemptive protection for Banshee

Resonator Bomb - The main ability to keep a group of enemies at their current positions, even at longer ranges, so you can snipe more easily. I'd consider it the same as your Acoustic Mine, just launchable. It would just make her flexible and fulfill her longranged role better, rather than only really using it as another closerange emergency skill (even if you could do that too). If necessary, reduce the damage instead, so it becomes more of a ranged CC-skill.

That way, her main source of damage would still be from her weapons. Sonar would amplify the weapons, RBomb would just make sure you can take your time and use your weapons, but not just at close range like your idea would.

 

Ember:

Alright, sounds good. Just wasn't clear enough imo.

 

Frost:

Sounds good too. Was mainly concerned about bosses here though.

 

Nekros:

I know it's not a means of adding to the soul cache. I know it's a seperate potential army-creating tool. But that's not what I'm trying to say: Without the "ending prematurely"-mod, you could only apply it to a living target, then you can't reapply it to any other target until that first target dies. With the mod however, you could switch it to another living target, even if the first one hasn't died, at the cost of losing the effect on the first one. That's the only thing that mod should affect for him. It should have no effect whatsoever on the ones he already have converted, as I'd consider them not part of the skill anymore, they are more like a "subskill" to the main application-skill, thus unaffected by the mod's effects. Otherwise, that mod would just be a downright stupid one to have on him. Those kind of aweful anti-fun designs should simply be left out of the game.

 

Nyx:

Ahaaaa, ok now I think I got what you mean. What I first understood was:

* Shoot Overwhelm on a bunch of random targets. Take one of those targets: The target is hit for 200 damage, leaving it with, say, 800 health left. All that 800 health will be what is considered for the explosion, if you damage him during the "debuff" I thought it applied.

Now I think I understood you better though:

* Shoot a target with Overwhelm. The target is hit for 200 Overwhelm damage. When killed, it deals 200 aoe-damage.

Take another target, hit by 600 Overwhelm damage. When killed it deals 600 aoe-damage.

If that is what it means, yeah, then I guess it would be totally fine. Sorry for misunderstanding so much. Have a little problems understanding English sometimes, it's not my native language (yeah, bad excuse, I know :P)

 

Saryn:

Like I said, she is a bit problematic. You'd consider her melee, but she is slow and has no gapcloser, but at least with Molt, she has a means of getting in to fights more or less unscathed (if you use it right). I'd personally make her a mix of both our versions: A pseudo-elusive and quite tanky melee+caster character.

Which is also why I suggested this:

- Venom Shroud (old Contagion), instead of being a useless group buff, boosts her melee with poison and provides her with your Allure-stuff too: A following gas-cloud and damage mitgation.

- Molt remains, and also clears debuffs from her. If used after applying Venom Shroud, the Molt also gets the Venom Shroud bonuses (gas cloud and damage mitigation).

- Miasma leaves a cloud behind at the place it was cast, which blocks line of sight for enemies. This would be another indirect form of a gapcloser, which synergizes very well with both Molt and Venom Shroud.

 

Valkyr:

Yeah, I know. That fits a Berserker very well. Paralysis is risky to use. Warcry and Hysteria lets her thrive in the all the riskiness. Ripline lets her get in to the risky fights. But, as it is right now, maybe she is TOO risky with just those changes? Making Ripline just SLIGHTLY less dangerous to use upon a miss would still be fitting, as she ruthlessly pulls herself into battle, slamming past whatever is in her way. But no, it wouldn't exactly be a necessary bonus, just something I thought would be a cool thing for her, so she can just launch herself into an enemy group and start her savagery without really being bothered by the ones she pass by.

Edited March 23, 2014 by Azamagon

[Archwizard]

Banshee:

I know what you mean, but I meant it like this:

Sonic Boom - The main emergency skill to keep enemies away from you.

Sonar - The main damage-boost

Silence - The preemptive protection for Banshee

Resonator Bomb - The main ability to keep a group of enemies at their current positions, even at longer ranges, so you can snipe more easily. I'd consider it the same as your Acoustic Mine, just launchable. It would just make her flexible and fulfill her longranged role better, rather than only really using it as another closerange emergency skill (even if you could do that too). If necessary, reduce the damage instead, so it becomes more of a ranged CC-skill.

That way, her main source of damage would still be from her weapons. Sonar would amplify the weapons, RBomb would just make sure you can take your time and use your weapons, but not just at close range like your idea would.

 

Nekros:

I know it's not a means of adding to the soul cache. I know it's a seperate potential army-creating tool. But that's not what I'm trying to say: Without the "ending prematurely"-mod, you could only apply it to a living target, then you can't reapply it to any other target until that first target dies. With the mod however, you could switch it to another living target, even if the first one hasn't died, at the cost of losing the effect on the first one. That's the only thing that mod should affect for him. It should have no effect whatsoever on the ones he already have converted, as I'd consider them not part of the skill anymore, they are more like a "subskill" to the main application-skill, thus unaffected by the mod's effects. Otherwise, that mod would just be a downright stupid one to have on him. Those kind of aweful anti-fun designs should simply be left out of the game.

 

Saryn:

Like I said, she is a bit problematic. You'd consider her melee, but she is slow and has no gapcloser, but at least with Molt, she has a means of getting in to fights more or less unscathed (if you use it right). I'd personally make her a mix of both our versions: A pseudo-elusive and quite tanky melee+caster character.

Which is also why I suggested this:

- Venom Shroud (old Contagion), instead of being a useless group buff, boosts her melee with poison and provides her with your Allure-stuff too: A following gas-cloud and damage mitgation.

- Molt remains, and also clears debuffs from her. If used after applying Venom Shroud, the Molt also gets the Venom Shroud bonuses (gas cloud and damage mitigation).

- Miasma leaves a cloud behind at the place it was cast, which blocks line of sight for enemies. This would be another indirect form of a gapcloser, which synergizes very well with both Molt and Venom Shroud.

 

Valkyr:

Yeah, I know. That fits a Berserker very well. Paralysis is risky to use. Warcry and Hysteria lets her thrive in the all the riskiness. Ripline lets her get in to the risky fights. But, as it is right now, maybe she is TOO risky with just those changes? Making Ripline just SLIGHTLY less dangerous to use upon a miss would still be fitting, as she ruthlessly pulls herself into battle, slamming past whatever is in her way. But no, it wouldn't exactly be a necessary bonus, just something I thought would be a cool thing for her, so she can just launch herself into an enemy group and start her savagery without really being bothered by the ones she pass by.

 

Banshee:

The advantage of Acoustic Mine is that you can set it pre-emptively. The sole limitation to that effect would be the limited range, but at worst that just puts emphasis on Banshee's stealth role and increased speed. There'd be no point to the delay if it had range and vice versa, and combining the two would probably be a bit too complex for one skill anyway.

 

Nekros: 

I'll stick that to the list of "maybes", since you make some good points. At the same time though, it might be imbalanced to give Nekros a potentially unlimited army and no drawbacks to casting a revocation.

 

Saryn:

Personally, I feel combining Overheat with Contagion would just be way too much for any one skill. Although I will admit, the Venom Shroud/Molt combo does look very tempting - being able to transfer buffs to Molt as well as debuffs would create very interesting synergy, especially with effects like Guardian Oath.

 

Valkyr:

Oh, that sounds easy enough to do. We already do that with the jump-kick, so it wouldn't be imbalanced at all to just put her in that mode while she's being pulled.

 

And your English is better than many native English speakers I've met.

Edited March 24, 2014 by Archwizard

[Annon5150]

I think Excalibur could use a melee damage buff when using radial blind. I mean, I'm using like 50 energy for a CC that only stuns for a few seconds. Why not add in a buff for when I go in their swinging? Plus he's the sword master. I don't think he should be out-done by the likes of Loki, Ash, etc.

 

He already does! All players get a stealth modifier using melee on blind enemies.

[Archwizard]

I can't get behind the proposed Oberon changes. Part of it is that Guardian's Oath looks like it would scale horribly, being overpowered at low levels and irrelevant at high levels. Beyond that it's too similar to Link, and in the whole I don't think changing skills whole cloth is a direction to be taking when his existing skills still have potential. I'll have a think about it.

 

I understand that the flat value of Oath would make scaling a potential issue, but at the same time the flat value encourages you to still use scaling mitigation effects like the Puncture proc; if it just reflected X% of damage taken right off the bat, any amount of CC or mitigation used by your teammates would weaken the damage of the reflection rather than supplementing the protective effect.

 

I wouldn't call it too similar to Link either; Link channels all of the damage received by one character into a limited number of nearby targets (regardless of who's actually shooting you) before blocking the damage to Trinity herself, while Oath blocks part of the damage received by all Tenno before channeling it back into their sources; the effect is weaker per-person, but nearly as cost-efficient in terms of how much of the group is protected.

Edited March 24, 2014 by Archwizard

[Warlord1400]

I have an idea for Banshee! How about change Sonic Boom into a Sonic Tunnel, and call it Shockwave? The ability can bounce off any surface and knock down enemies, even collect them! Plus multiply the damage, it's not worth using if it can't even kill. Even if it is only a utility :p Thanks for reading! i know that this thread is really packed

[Azamagon]

Banshee:

The advantage of Acoustic Mine is that you can set it pre-emptively. The sole limitation to that effect would be the limited range, but at worst that just puts emphasis on Banshee's stealth role and increased speed. There'd be no point to the delay if it had range and vice versa, and combining the two would probably be a bit too complex for one skill anyway.

 

Nekros: 

I'll stick that to the list of "maybes", since you make some good points. At the same time though, it might be imbalanced to give Nekros a potentially unlimited army and no drawbacks to casting a revocation.

 

Saryn:

Personally, I feel combining Overheat with Contagion would just be way too much for any one skill. Although I will admit, the Venom Shroud/Molt combo does look very tempting - being able to transfer buffs to Molt as well as debuffs would create very interesting synergy, especially with effects like Guardian Oath.

 

Valkyr:

Oh, that sounds easy enough to do. We already do that with the jump-kick, so it wouldn't be imbalanced at all to just put her in that mode while she's being pulled.

 

And your English is better than many native English speakers I've met.

Banshee:

Ah, but I didn't take that away from my version! It would still be useable as a preemptively placed mine (as it doesn't go boom until it has landed on a surface and then an enemy gets close to / is in its proximity radius), I just meant to make to take your version as it is and make it launchable at range (and detonateable at any time as well, so you CAN trigger it midair if you want, for a more interactive skill). Nothing else!

 

Nekros:

How about this then: You have a max amount of targets that can be created with Necrosis, then let's say, Power Range, affects that cap? Because currently, you idea doesn't interact with Power Range at all anyway, no?

 

Saryn:

Just make it an "Overheat" that doesn't have its damage mitigation scale with Power Strength, then it'd be fine I guess? And yeah, having Molt copy buffs from Saryn as well as take the debuffs away from Saryn really opens up some potentially fun and interesting gameplay interactions, of which we always could use more :)

 

Valkyr:

Yeah, I just thought of skipping the need to do the manual airkicking :P

 

And thanks for the comment about my English ^_^

[Dalu__Ka]

Nothing more to add basically. These changes will bring Warframe to the next level.

[RadiantProxy]

I liked most of them, especially the changes to Ash, Nyx and Sarin.

Hm, people would whine if Necros' Desecrate would go, heh. On the other hand, a longer-living undead companion sounds like so much fun.

I don't know about Oberon's immobile heal power. It would be useful in the Defense missions, but everything else is very fast paced for a whole squad to gather on one carpet of fairy sparkles in order to heal a little. Maybe, if the carpet would do splash heal in a radius, much like the Team Heath Restores, radius scaling with the Stretch mod...

[RealPandemonium]

I think ability retuning discussion should be focused on retuning skills rather than making up new skills.  Take what we have now and modify it slightly to make it more satisfying.  The game is pretty good as it is, but it could be better.  It doesn't need to be a different game

[(PSN)OniWarrior]

First of all, I totally agree that all frames should have some synergy within their skill set. However, I don't think that every frame needs to be rigidly locked to a specific theme or archetype. Many gamers have been wanting new and imaginative gaming experiences for some time. By having some frames that are maybe inspired by certain themes, but unique in their own right, it gives the developers more creative freedom and us a newer, fresher gaming experience.

Now, as for your ideas. There is a lot to go through here, so I am going to have to digest them in smaller, bite sized chunks when I have time. I am not going to put my feedback to all of your ideas in this reply, in some cases because I have not yet had time to read them, in others because i have not yet tried those frames and thus cannot truly compare your suggestions to the current skills.

Ash

Much of what you suggest for Ash I agree with in principle. I personally believe that being the most ninja-esque frame he should have skills that enable him to make better use of the in game stealth mechanics, allowing for a more "true stealth" approach than the "faux stealth" provided by invisibility. I also like the idea of using a critical boost in some way. My ideas (in the link below) basically seek to address the problems in a slightly different way towards the same goal.

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/190231-my-ideas-for-ash/

Saryn

Pretty much spot on!

The only thing I'm not so sure on is your replacement for Molt. While I think she needs a gas based attack to round out her set, i think a gas grenade of some form would be better. It would be quick cast, low cost. It's damage would be low, but it would briefly stagger enemies in it's range (choking animation). This would allow Saryn to close into melee range a little easier. The gas grenade could possibly de-buff those enemies so that they are more susceptible to status procs.

Oberon

Changing Smite to radiation/puncture I like. It would certainly make him even more anti-grineer than he is now, but the weakening effect from the puncture proc would be good. One thing I would add is that it should knockdown the target and those hit by the secondary projectiles. You do, after all, smite down your enemies, do you not? This would give Smite a small scale cc and would help you keep targets on Hallowed Ground. As far as Hallowed Ground goes, simply allowing a chance for radiation to proc would solve a lot of it's problems. One enemy turning on another would keep both within it's aoe. Adding a healing effect would definitely add to team synergy. A melee tank sitting on Hallowed Ground, attracting enemies onto it while being healed by it so as to keep on fighting is very cool.

I personally wouldn't ditch Renewal, just modify it. If Hallowed Ground now heals allies, Renewal could provide a short duration team buff that provides protection from leader and ancient's de-buffs. You could also allow it to instantly revive downed allies at the cost of a percentage of your current health. This of course would need some careful balancing work to stop it being game braking.

Nekros

Unfortunately this one I have to completely disagree with. Nekros has some great potential with his current skills, they just need some work. Having two skills that create minions I think is too much when you only have four to play with. What it seems you are trying to create is a minion master based not on necromancy, but on voodoo with a Romero twist. You would, I believe, be substituting one problem for another. Instead of the current problem of being removed from the action whilst you run around desecrating groups of dead bodies, you would be removed from the action constantly micro managing your undead army. That's not to say I dislike all of your ideas, I just think that they would be better utilised elsewhere. I have seen others asking for an infested themed warframe and Necrosis would fit perfectly. Infecting a enemy with a modified version of the technocyte virus that transforms the victim into an infested minion upon death, the type of infested you get being based upon the enemy afflicted. Soul Feast's vampiric nature would also be a good replacement for Trinity's Well Of Life.

Nekros' theme, to me, seems to be more Scion of Death than anything else, which his current skills fit well but need some work. Soul Punch should lose it's knockdown and unreliable aoe. Instead it should have a small area stun caused by the dislodged soul wailing in anguish as it tries to re-enter it's body. It should also permanently tag the enemy so that when it dies, by any means, it is added to the summon pool for Shadows of the Dead. Up to three tags could be active at once and any soul added to the pool via Soul Punch would get priority when summoning. Terrify should keep it's casting limit but lose it's enemy limit. Afflicted enemies should only run a short distance before cowering. This would allow for more tactical play options or let you simply kill them with greater ease as other cc skills on other frames do. With Desecrate, I like it's idea, just not it's execution. Someone else (sorry, can't remember who) suggested that it should be a buff that Nekros casts upon himself that pulses the effect periodically. This would obviously need some balancing work, but it would allow you to perform the same task as it does now while letting you be a more active participant in the game. As for Shadows of the Dead, more control over what your shadows are doing is definitely needed, I would suggest have them react to your waypoint, for example, waypoint the cryopod and they space themselves in a defensive ring around it, waypoint an enemy and they focus their attacks on it. This would enable you to quickly direct them to where they are needed then let you focus your attention elsewhere.

[Noble_Cactus]

That pinging Desecrate was VKhuan's suggestion. The pulses would either have to be very fast, or the aura would have to automatically Desecrate bodies with which it comes into contact. Otherwise, it's worse off than the current Desecrate.

 

And yeah, that's Nekros' big issue. He's a micro class... in a game that doesn't promote micro. It's much easier to implement a minion master/zookeeper in another ARPG like Diablo or a TPS like Warcraft because your minions either simply follow the caster around and swarm the enemy when in aggro range, or the player can select a group of minions, assign them to a hotkey, and then direct those groups toward waypoints. Our Waypoint button would be the best option in the limited tools available to us, I suppose.

Edited March 26, 2014 by Noble_Cactus

[Archwizard]

Unfortunately this one I have to completely disagree with. Nekros has some great potential with his current skills, they just need some work. Having two skills that create minions I think is too much when you only have four to play with. What it seems you are trying to create is a minion master based not on necromancy, but on voodoo with a Romero twist. You would, I believe, be substituting one problem for another. Instead of the current problem of being removed from the action whilst you run around desecrating groups of dead bodies, you would be removed from the action constantly micro managing your undead army. 

And yeah, that's Nekros' big issue. He's a micro class... in a game that doesn't promote micro. It's much easier to implement a minion master/zookeeper in another ARPG like Diablo or a TPS like Warcraft because your minions either simply follow the caster around and swarm the enemy when in aggro range, or the player can select a group of minions, assign them to a hotkey, and then direct those groups toward waypoints. Our Waypoint button would be the best option in the limited tools available to us, I suppose.

 

Well you say 2 skills for the same role might be much, but then you look at frames like Trinity, Nyx, all of the elementals, etc as they are now, and you come to realize that just because they have two or more abilities with the same end-goal, they each have different effects and purposes.

(YMMV on Well of Life of course.)

 

Point is, I definitely think there's a niche for having two skills that perform the same purpose... sometimes, but including cases like this. Necrosis would allow you to tag enemies that you're definitely not going to get the killing blow on, while spawning a different breed of minion in itself - there's a little-known issue with Nekros players who choose to maximize Shadows of the Dead by sniping heavy units and ignoring smaller ones, which Necrosis is designed to tackle by allowing them to feel free to tag the big guy with something else and keep killing. It all comes out to Necrosis giving the player a more gradual effect while Shadows is a snap boost.

 

Honestly, I think it would work out just having the group focus-attack enemies you zoom in on. Unless you're going for stealth play, having the minions give you some extra single-target firepower when you're already performing precision attacks can go a long way, and if you're not going for any form of precision then they can just do their own thing and cause mass chaos. The only things it wouldn't be able to do is split off groups or command them to sit down on the cryopod.

The end-goal here is that the only micro-managing revolves around keeping them alive if they mean that much to you (which is what his non-reanimating skills are for), while directing them becomes a passive effort. Selecting a target for Necrosis would be no more effort than casting Soul Punch.

 

Setting waypoints all the time to direct them would get kind of annoying more than anything else.

[nekrojiji]

Valkyr doesn't have stealth damage bonus (or ....you can't "realy" use it because of the stupid stealth attack prompt).

 

Valkyr, now, IS a berserker. Berserkers are not caracterized by low defense, but by a high pain threshold. That's exactly what Hysteria acomplishes.

 

If you read the little lore on Valkyr you see there about Warcry and Hysteria. Her very high armor comes from the lore too. She feels less pain as a result of what she went through in the Zanuka Project. 

 

Warcry can be changed to buff her allies with the same armor buff as she gives herself(the value calculated as % of her armor), so not only Frost, Rhino and Saryn benefit from it.

 

I like your Idea for Ripline. More, in Hysteria it should deal slide damage augmented by the skill.

  

Hysteria is the most balanced invulnerability in this game and doesn't need a change. The fact that you have to use Rip Line to have mobility is not OP it's just ability synergy. I hope more frames will have this.

 

Paralysis needs to either lose the stealth attack prompt or a total change.

 

 

 

I like your Loki ideas with the decoy and barel switch teleport.

 

I like your idea with Volt's shield. (Finaly a person who plays warframe with full detail and sees how anoying that shield can be)

 

A lile  the other ideas too ..... including the main idea that all warframes should be able to be good solo and great in synergy with team mates.

[(PSN)OniWarrior]

The problem with Necrosis is that it would be as unreliable as Soul Punch's current aoe is now. As a #1 skill the energy requirement would have to be low. This would mean that any damage dealt to have a noticeable effect, the duration would have to be very short. Alternatively the duration could be substantial but the damage per tick would be negligible. Either way, raising the minion would solely depend upon your weapon or an ally killing it before the effect wares off. By applying a permanent tag that would guarantee that minion is ready when needed with Shadows of the Dead you would both provide a reliable method of obtaining heavy minions and free up a power for something that could add a little more diversity to his skill set.

As for the manner in which to manoeuvre your minions around. I can see how using your aiming may be a little more fluid, but I can also foresee some problems with it too. Being a third person shooter, the camera is much closer to you than most games that have some form of minion master. The camera then moves in even closer when you aim, making it far more easily obscured by your shadows, other players or pieces of scenery. This would of course interfere with the actions you are trying to get your minions to perform. You can also pretty much forget using sniper rifles. The use of your waypoint may seem more fiddly at first, but it would provide more of a fire and forget approach to using your minions for specific tasks.

But do me a favour, try not to get too hung up on the one frame which I had some (hopefully constructive) criticisms. It is after all just a difference of opinion. For the most part I like your ideas for the other frames I mentioned and suggested some of my own that I would hope bolster yours.

Please don't think that I am being overly negative just to be an annoying. I am only trying to provide well thought out feedback. In the end I want what you want, balanced, well rounded warframes that offer fun and diverse play styles.

[Tatersail]

I like most of these ideas, but I think its simply too much for for DE to do.

 

Alot of it will require fresh coding, and new abilitys, that will be at first, buggy, and the community will no doubt find ways to exploit them to to be "game breaking"

its a huge amount of work, it takes almost a month for slight tweaks to 1 of the powers on one frame, and there is a huge community backlash against any sweeping changes.

 

DE need to focus on making money, which means making new frames, new weapons, and keeping players interested with new content, melee systems etc.

Fixing / adding polish to existing frames will not make as much money, as focusing on new content.

 

 

 

I am sure DE have metrics on how many times each ability has been used, % playtime on frames, shots and % usage on guns.

yet we still have things like Acrid, Soma, Ogris.   

I think the sad fact is, leaving Acrid as the most powerful weapon for over 6 months, didn't loose them any money, so it wasn't a priority.

 

Cynical post over :)

Edited March 26, 2014 by Tatersail

[Archwizard]

The problem with Necrosis is that it would be as unreliable as Soul Punch's current aoe is now. As a #1 skill the energy requirement would have to be low. This would mean that any damage dealt to have a noticeable effect, the duration would have to be very short. Alternatively the duration could be substantial but the damage per tick would be negligible. Either way, raising the minion would solely depend upon your weapon or an ally killing it before the effect wares off. By applying a permanent tag that would guarantee that minion is ready when needed with Shadows of the Dead you would both provide a reliable method of obtaining heavy minions and free up a power for something that could add a little more diversity to his skill set.

As for the manner in which to manoeuvre your minions around. I can see how using your aiming may be a little more fluid, but I can also foresee some problems with it too. Being a third person shooter, the camera is much closer to you than most games that have some form of minion master. The camera then moves in even closer when you aim, making it far more easily obscured by your shadows, other players or pieces of scenery. This would of course interfere with the actions you are trying to get your minions to perform. You can also pretty much forget using sniper rifles. The use of your waypoint may seem more fiddly at first, but it would provide more of a fire and forget approach to using your minions for specific tasks.

But do me a favour, try not to get too hung up on the one frame which I had some (hopefully constructive) criticisms. It is after all just a difference of opinion. For the most part I like your ideas for the other frames I mentioned and suggested some of my own that I would hope bolster yours.

Please don't think that I am being overly negative just to be an annoying. I am only trying to provide well thought out feedback. In the end I want what you want, balanced, well rounded warframes that offer fun and diverse play styles.

 

The thing about Necrosis is, the DoT isn't the main focus so much as a pre-death byproduct to the minion-raising effect, a la Molecular Prime's debuffs (as opposed to "Contagion", which would/does focus on damage and AoE; Necrosis could tick for constant 1s and still fit the vision for it). The debuff could do anything, I just like the idea of the target slowly wasting away from disease while it's active (hence the name, which refers to premature cell death). You could have an ability that just feeds souls directly to Shadows of the Dead, but then at worst you increase the effective cost of Shadows (especially at higher levels), and at best you have to mod both or neither at all times to make use of either. Turning it into a standalone ability increases build diversity; it's not a bad thing to have to break out your weapons, especially given Nekros' energy cost requirements.

 

And no, you're perfectly in the right to be concerned. I'm not taking it personally, I'm just addressing the concerns you listed (because I've had a lot of time to think about 'em). If we hammer it out enough, it'll make a sturdier sword.

[LukeAura]

Valkyr, now, IS a berserker. Berserkers are not caracterized by low defense, but by a high pain threshold. That's exactly what Hysteria acomplishes.

 

If you read the little lore on Valkyr you see there about Warcry and Hysteria. Her very high armor comes from the lore too. She feels less pain as a result of what she went through in the Zanuka Project. 

Berserkers typically are high health->low armor. The pain threshold is in their ability to take massive amounts of damage, not mitigate it down to nothing. And as they take the damage, then the mitigation comes, but usually in the form of a health regen. Making them increasingly harder to kill, relying on the building of rage, kills and taking damage to keep on building rage, restoring health/mitigating damage to take the damage again, and getting more kills, as long as they manage their kills and health to always keep them in the sweet spot of the chain. Don't kill enough, and they run out of juice. Kill too quickly, and the next enemies don't get here in time to keep the chain. Get too low on health, and you're susceptible to dying from hard hitting long range enemies, too high and you leave the critical zone your chain of skills is dependent on. Surprisingly Berserkers tend to be a more tactical and graceful manipulation of skills and timing than your typical swordsman/Finesse-warrior class. 

Although I do like the idea this is some kind of zen-berserk form of armor.

[(PSN)OniWarrior]

The thing about Necrosis is, the DoT isn't the main focus so much as a pre-death byproduct to the minion-raising effect, a la Molecular Prime's debuffs (as opposed to "Contagion", which would/does focus on damage and AoE; Necrosis could tick for constant 1s and still fit the vision for it). The debuff could do anything, I just like the idea of the target slowly wasting away from disease while it's active (hence the name, which refers to premature cell death). You could have an ability that just feeds souls directly to Shadows of the Dead, but then at worst you increase the effective cost of Shadows (especially at higher levels), and at best you have to mod both or neither at all times to make use of either. Turning it into a standalone ability increases build diversity; it's not a bad thing to have to break out your weapons, especially given Nekros' energy cost requirements.

 

And no, you're perfectly in the right to be concerned. I'm not taking it personally, I'm just addressing the concerns you listed (because I've had a lot of time to think about 'em). If we hammer it out enough, it'll make a sturdier sword.

Ahh...I think we may have got our wires crossed:)

I thought you meant that the de-buff that raises them from the dead lasted the same duration as the viral dot, thus my concerns.

As for my idea of tagging enemies, the idea is that you would still add souls to the summon pool by killing enemies but tagging one serves two purposes. The first is to guarantee that if another player, either intentionally or unintentionally, steals your kill against a leader/heavy they are still yours to summon. The second would be to ensure that the ones you want to summon first would be summoned first because enemies added by Soul Punch would be given priority over the random selection of those added by just killing them. You would still be able to use Shadows of the Dead without Soul Punch in the same way you can now, but using Soul Punch would just help customise your squad of the dead without having to worry about weaker enemies you kill knocking the souls you want out of the summon pool.

[Noble_Cactus]

A few notes on Banshee's skills:

 

Sonar - It'd be nice if this was an aura that followed her around like you currently have set up for Silence. Assuming she's sending out Sonar pulses over the course of the skill's duration, anyway. The 'flavor' would be that she's sending out constant sound that would ping back to her, like a submarine or a bat. Note that this would NOT re-roll the weakpoints with each pulse. That would just make the skill inconvenient.

 

Acoustic Mine - I like this idea, but I'm trying to think of how this could be more... sniper-friendly. Your current idea would work well as protection, though she'd need to run outside the circle to take full advantage of it. Could the location of the mine be targetable? I have a feeling it would would have trouble placing the mine where you want, especially given this game's clunky targeting system. Aiming right at that Heavy Gunner to cast Soul Punch? Too bad, you're getting torn to shreds because you were a pixel off. Then again, this is also an issue with the game more than it is with individual skills. Or you could be able to place the mine at a location without an active target, though outside Vauban, we don't really have this kind of skill. And then it would just be Bastille that could be deployed at longer ranges. Hmm.

 

For the visual effect, maybe instead of the rumblings we have now with Sound Quake, the new skill could emit a high-pitched blast of noise. This either procs Blast or cause enemies to hold their heads like they do when hit by Chaos. It'd make sniping much easier than having them stumble around.

 

As mentioned by LukeAura in the Silence/Sonar thread, some kind of mobility would help her as a sniper/stealth and assassination class.

 

Anyway, good work on the thread.

Edited March 26, 2014 by Noble_Cactus

[LukeAura]

As mentioned by LukeAura in the Silence/Sonar thread, some kind of mobility would help her as a sniper/stealth and assassination class.

*kicks down the door*

Someone rang. 8|

I really enjoy the idea of Banshee.

but she's closer to being a CC/support frame than a stealth/sniper class right now.

Unfortunately she doesn't really have room in her kit for both silence/sonar/and a mobility skill.

Barring the addition of extra skills, in which she can become a custom fit to tastes.

My favourite idea is to replace silence, but give it a special teleport+aggro draw/aggro redirection to an Echo 'decoy' at the initial location that draws enemy aggro based on the noise Banshee creates. So it's essentially recreating the effect of silence, based on making noise, in a situations, with a free teleport to get up in to sniper spots.

My ideas on her from a couple weeks ago.

The Sniper-Banshee

The primary problem I've found with Banshee is that her kit is both clunky, and far too spread out. She lacks any real sort of synergy in her powers that she can make use of, while lacking in the overall stealth department. The primary changes with Banshee will be QoL/Flexibility, and stealth improvements.

Sonic Boom;

A handy cheap on energy CC skill, knocks foes down. It's effective, and plain. This is her close range emergency skill for when sniping fails. But due to the nature of enemies pathing and aggro, they'll be right on her again when they get up.

Suggestion; Enemies hit by Sonic Boom have their aggro reset due to sustaining significant concussive damage. An improved stealth mechanic, if you move out of sight before enemies get back up you have effectively reset the situation, enemies will return to standard patrols until another source of aggro appears. it give this ability options, is it a CC, or a pseudo stealth tool?

Optional: Could also potentially hinder detection ranges.

Sonar:

A powerful damage boosting skill. It's very clunky though, despite having large range it is single cast and Banshee centered, hindering the use and flexibility Banshee can get out of it. The Premier snipers aid in her arsenal, but not usually worth its cost.

Suggestion; Improve its flexibility. Becomes an aura that persists for its duration, enemies that enter the field will get tagged. Leaving the field doesn't remove a highlight, reentering overwrites old one with a fresh one. weakpoint highlights are permanent even after Sonar ends.

Options; On top of becoming a persistent aura there are other casting changes that are possible, each with varying bonuses and points, range, duration and damage bonus aren't static and would be adjusted depending on preferred option.

Castable at range, a true sniping field, would become the longest range ability ever.

Centered on cast location just like now, Snipers hunker down, set up your zone and hold it(Just don't die of old age), would probably be the strongest of all but the most restrictive.

Centered on Banshee, will be effective regardless of changes in situation. Totally in your control where it goes and when.

Castable-twist. If placed on a target, follows that target. Set up on an enemy and have him move it for you, becomes set when he dies, or place it on an ally and support them from afar! No matter where they are.

Silence:

Oh yes, this can of worms. My solution is to essentially replace it, but keep to its essence. So may I introduce,

Echo: A teleport+Aggro draw. Great for getting in to tight places, out of situations. Or drawing foes to a location. Banshee teleports in direction of cursor, and leaves behind an echo of herself. The Echo takes in Banshee's current aggro, and any time Banshee is detected based on noise, that aggro is drawn to the Echo instead. The Echo has no physical form, enemies and allies pass through it as well as gunfire. It's not a tank or wall though. Hop in to a Vantage point and group enemies while you snipe them. Great follow up from a Sonic Boom. Great grouper for Sonar.

Optional: Enemy projectiles passing through an echo turn on friendly fire.

Sound Quake:

I think we all know the problem with Sound Quake. The channel. Now, the simple option I could give would be to remove the channel, or make it cancellable. Let's add a little more spice than that.

Suggestion: Banshee condenses an acoustic proximity mine. When enemies approach too close, it triggers, unleashing a devastating Sound Quake. It would have cast options similar to Sonar. Castable at range, deployable at current location, or castable and target sticky.

Damage would likely be reduced but stagger/blast procc rate increased. Prep a Sound mine and keep it nearby for protection while you snipe. Or throw it out as a trap to catch foes. Maybe slap it on your Rhino buddy and have him charge through enemies for a super charge?

Edited March 26, 2014 by LukeAura

[Archwizard]

Ahh...I think we may have got our wires crossed:)

I thought you meant that the de-buff that raises them from the dead lasted the same duration as the viral dot, thus my concerns.

 

That's... because they are (unless you mean the actual post-death "zombified" effect, which has no set duration). I never said they weren't, and you were absolutely right in assuming that. But you can cast the DoT at any time, including right before the target dies; the damage is just a pre-death consequence of the debuff, to edge the target a little further to that post-death effect. I always assumed it'd be low damage if it had any substantial duration, as you can see from the link to my other thread in the OP, and increasing Power Duration would lower the output anyway.

But Necrosis would otherwise do exactly the kind of tagging you're referring to with Soul Punch - only instantly, instead of requiring the extra time, energy, or kills to cast Shadows of the Dead. Replacing Soul Punch entirely is basically just me cutting out the middle man.

 

Sonar - It'd be nice if this was an aura that followed her around like you currently have set up for Silence. Assuming she's sending out Sonar pulses over the course of the skill's duration, anyway. The 'flavor' would be that she's sending out constant sound that would ping back to her, like a submarine or a bat. Note that this would NOT re-roll the weakpoints with each pulse. That would just make the skill inconvenient.

 

Acoustic Mine - I like this idea, but I'm trying to think of how this could be more... sniper-friendly. Your current idea would work well as protection, though she'd need to run outside the circle to take full advantage of it. Could the location of the mine be targetable? I have a feeling it would would have trouble placing the mine where you want, especially given this game's clunky targeting system. Aiming right at that Heavy Gunner to cast Soul Punch? Too bad, you're getting torn to shreds because you were a pixel off. Then again, this is also an issue with the game more than it is with individual skills. Or you could be able to place the mine at a location without an active target, though outside Vauban, we don't really have this kind of skill. And then it would just be Bastille that could be deployed at longer ranges. Hmm.

 

For the visual effect, maybe instead of the rumblings we have now with Sound Quake, the new skill could emit a high-pitched blast of noise. This either procs Blast or cause enemies to hold their heads like they do when hit by Chaos. It'd make sniping much easier than having them stumble around.

 

I set Silence up as the aura because it already has a cooldown even if it doesn't hit enemies. You could trade the casting condition in the OP to be on Sonar, I suppose, but I find this is a more interesting fix to an annoying mechanic on an ability people already have issues with.

 

As for Acoustic Mine, the idea was that you would be able to precast it, then wait for an enemy to stumble onto it and snipe them while they're trapped inside, with the side-benefit of being able to drop it instantly to make a non-channeled version of Sound Quake as it is now. I could definitely put a note in the OP to have it do the same head-grabbing stagger animation as Chaos though.

 

As for mobility, she's already above the average stat budget with her increased speed...

 

*kicks down the door*

Someone rang. 8|

 

Wait... did we have the same idea for Sound Quake separately?

... Spooky.

Edited March 26, 2014 by Archwizard