Retune *all* The Frames! (11/19: Wildfire)

[LukeAura]

Wait... did we have the same idea for Sound Quake separately?

... Spooky.

It seems so. 

I think it's just a natural relation of the sniper/archer archetype to have a form of proximity mine defensive measure though. 

[Annon5150]

I have an idea for Banshee! How about change Sonic Boom into a Sonic Tunnel, and call it Shockwave? The ability can bounce off any surface and knock down enemies, even collect them! Plus multiply the damage, it's not worth using if it can't even kill. Even if it is only a utility :p Thanks for reading! i know that this thread is really packed

 

Sounds like the anti-moas ability. Could be cool, but that'd defeat the point since her current 1 gives her the range advantage.

[LukeAura]

Someone should probably make a Banshee megathread already.

[Ttariel]

Yeah i can run with that.

[Foxxar]

I might be able to live with the rest, but your ideas for Valkyr are........ no offense, but not good.. Why would someone use an ult that was a guaranteed death sentence (you would end Hysteria with no shields and 1 HP), and why is a melee berserker healing the group? Isn't that already covered by Trinity and Oberon? Valkyr is better off the way she is.

[theammostore]

I might be able to live with the rest, but your ideas for Valkyr are........ no offense, but not good.. Why would someone use an ult that was a guaranteed death sentence (you would end Hysteria with no shields and 1 HP), and why is a melee berserker healing the group? Isn't that already covered by Trinity and Oberon? Valkyr is better off the way she is.

Better incentive than right now, which is you end it with full shields and health minus a little bit based on how many people were shooting you and were left standing. This would actually give you a reason to make sure to kill everyone, and make it an actual berzerker style ability, as instead of going at it for a little while and then stopping and running away towards the end, you would want to run in and kill every single thing you could find to make sure it was clear for you to heal up after the ability ends.

[LukeAura]

I might be able to live with the rest, but your ideas for Valkyr are........ no offense, but not good.. Why would someone use an ult that was a guaranteed death sentence (you would end Hysteria with no shields and 1 HP), and why is a melee berserker healing the group? Isn't that already covered by Trinity and Oberon? Valkyr is better off the way she is.

Berserkers typically are kill or be killed. So she should either be dead, or have every enemy around her dead, running and hiding can't be an option to avoid both. They also tend to have health regeneration through kills/damage powers, Valkyr's would just be a party buff version. It would only work in combat and require a very risky form of it as well so trinity and Oberon's would still hold a lot of value as more general purpose and long range healing. It would also help give her synergy between warcry and hysteria. With a berserker, it's all about staying in the critical zone sweetspot god-mode-of-damage while keeping just enough health to stay alive. Archwizard's take on this for warframe is a little rough but it is certainly better. 

Valkyr would be better off the way she is if she wasn't Valkyr. Berserkers don't tank, support, and hide. 

People support and tank for the berserker until the berserker gets an opening to start the chain of live to kill, kill to live, live to kill. Etc. 

[Archwizard]

I might be able to live with the rest, but your ideas for Valkyr are........ no offense, but not good.. Why would someone use an ult that was a guaranteed death sentence (you would end Hysteria with no shields and 1 HP), and why is a melee berserker healing the group? Isn't that already covered by Trinity and Oberon? Valkyr is better off the way she is.

 

"You would end Hysteria with no shields and 1 HP" if you just mindlessly spam her super-mode, sure. If Warcry heals based on the amount of damage she deals AND her damage increases based on damage taken, however, the feedback loop will heal her for a substantial amount and work in tandem with Paralysis' CC to keep her alive. Higher risk (skill ceiling), higher reward (power ceiling).

 

I edited the OP for clarity on the Warcry healing though - her attacks don't heal the whole group, she merely gives everyone a buff to do that for themselves. Her rallying cry is intended to encourage players to use their melee attacks, and works in tandem with other melee damage buffs like Contagion and Speed.

[billthebetta]

OP, I love all of this. It's not enough to say just this, but it's probably the general consensus.

[Archwizard]

Honestly I'm surprised I haven't gotten more complaints about Ash. Part of me feels I could've been more... innovative, imaginative with him, although I suppose I did address the major two points.

[kaboomonme]

Honestly I'm surprised I haven't gotten more complaints about Ash. Part of me feels I could've been more... innovative, imaginative with him, although I suppose I did address the major two points.

You could. I suppose they just weren't interesting enough for people to comment on it yet. It's not overwhelmingly bad, yet not extremely good either.

[LukeAura]

@Ash comment

They're a little uninspiring. But I think everyone more or less knows how to fix Ash, or the general direction Ash's abilities have to progress.

Shurikens hitting more target and with a minor debuff.

Teleport gaining added utility, larger AoE stun range/Melee boost/Free targetting.

Bladestorm hitting enemies on the fly in some fashion.

Every one pretty much knows what the Ash-suggestion buffs are if they're any good.

Reading over Oberon:

Smite's particle need a little tracking on bounces, as it seems like in a lot of maps they just end up getting bounced in to the ceiling and lost. They don't have to auto snipe, but just made so that they head in the general direction of enemies.

I think with Hallowed Ground, giving it the Heal is nice but it's a little small to both be damaging enemies and healing allies. Needs a size increase, but maybe also make it a stop-and-go. Every second spent on it applies a 5 second HoT buff, up to X seconds. So it allows players to sit and charge a long lasting HoT, or just run over for a quick boost.

Guardian's Oath, I like the idea. but I think an HoT already fulfills the role of keeping health up from smaller, weaker attacks. If it could be retooled to be the defense against heavy hitters that might make more sense with Hallowed Ground.

No ideas of Reckoning? Not even a simple change to the puncture/Radiation combo as well?

Edited March 28, 2014 by LukeAura

[(PSN)OniWarrior]

Valkyr

On the whole I think your ideas here are very interesting and although I enjoy playing Valkyr as she is now the changes you propose would give her some more depth. The only gripe I have with it is removing the health regen from Hysteria. Doing so would make her ultimate useless on its own, relying upon Warcry to prevent you from dying the moment Hysteria ends. This effectively gives her ultimate a 175 energy cost, meaning you would have to level her high enough to equip Streamline, Flow or both before you can use Hysteria effectively.

I would suggest leaving the health regen on Hysteria and leaving the armour buff on Warcry but change it so that Valkyr gets the same percentage increase as she does now, but teammates get the same armour value boost that Valkyr gets. For example, a Valkyr with 600 armour casts a max rank Warcry and the whole team gets a 300 armour boost. This may provide a more meaningful way of allowing the team to engage in melee, because a warframe with low base armour would still take more damage than they could heal if Warcry gave team health regen.

Using a Warcry that boosted armour with Hysteria would also provide an new dynamic to their combined use. The increase in armour would reduce the rate at which your attacks gained strength in exchange for a faster attack speed, thus making the activation of Warcry something that would need to be timed well to achieve optimal performance.

[LukeAura]

Valkyr

On the whole I think your ideas here are very interesting and although I enjoy playing Valkyr as she is now the changes you propose would give her some more depth. The only gripe I have with it is removing the health regen from Hysteria. Doing so would make her ultimate useless on its own, relying upon Warcry to prevent you from dying the moment Hysteria ends. This effectively gives her ultimate a 175 energy cost, meaning you would have to level her high enough to equip Streamline, Flow or both before you can use Hysteria effectively.

That would be solvable by reducing Warcry's cost.

Hysteria is also an ult, you shouldn't be using it without the absolute necessity. If you're about to die, pop it for extended invulnerability at 1 health. It also gives a large boost to damage as health drops.

[Archwizard]

I think with Hallowed Ground, giving it the Heal is nice but it's a little small to both be damaging enemies and healing allies. Needs a size increase, but maybe also make it a stop-and-go. Every second spent on it applies a 5 second HoT buff, up to X seconds. So it allows players to sit and charge a long lasting HoT, or just run over for a quick boost.

Guardian's Oath, I like the idea. but I think an HoT already fulfills the role of keeping health up from smaller, weaker attacks. If it could be retooled to be the defense against heavy hitters that might make more sense with Hallowed Ground.

No ideas of Reckoning? Not even a simple change to the puncture/Radiation combo as well?

 

Hallowed Ground:

I was actually thinking of changing the casting conditions of it so that it would be a circular area cast at the targeted location (so you could drop it under allies who are engaging foes), but I wanted to see the reaction to the rest of the skillset because I revamped it further. That and I wasn't sure I wanted to promote more back-line casting...

 

Guardian's Oath:

It's a bit difficult to retool something for stronger attacks, since you basically have to make it scale to a percentage of the attack itself, which would then make Smite's Puncture proc counter-intuitive to using the reflection for any damage purposes (doubly ironic for being, at its forefront, a damage skill) AND create a clone of Link or Turbulence, but remade to affect the whole party.

Can it be done? Maybe, but it would need an extra limitation to balance being able to affect the whole group, like a limited number of total hits it can reflect instead of a per-hit cap (which would then be obliterated by faster, weaker attacks without any form of mass slow and ONLY be useful against Infested). 

Granting, this is all if we just want to make it affect all party members equally, which is a complaint I tried to address by taking the armor out of Warcry. You could do something with armor or health or shields instead, but a flat amount is useless to the better-endowed frames (for armor in particular due to diminishing returns) and a scaling amount is useless to the squishier frames.

 

Edit: So the obvious solution is to give it some kind of dynamic scaling. Like Snow Globe - just use your healing before you cast the effect, and crowd mitigation after.

 

Reckoning:

Was more focusing on making the other three abilities, really. Reckoning's the sole ability in Oberon's skillset I've seen people say they enjoy using - although I'm not sure how to (or even if I should) address the killing blow requirement on health orbs. I don't think it's necessary to change it to Puncture damage, partially because it gives Smite a unique facet and partially because it makes sense for it to have some direct CC potential when it's slamming people into the ground face-first.

Edited March 29, 2014 by Archwizard

[(PSN)OniWarrior]

That would be solvable by reducing Warcry's cost.

Hysteria is also an ult, you shouldn't be using it without the absolute necessity. If you're about to die, pop it for extended invulnerability at 1 health. It also gives a large boost to damage as health drops.

That still wouldn't solve the problem with Hysteria being unusable as a standalone skill. If you are just starting to use Valkyr it wouldn't matter how low you set the energy cost for Warcry, your total energy reserves would be too low to cast both. It is also at those low levels that she is most in need of her ultimate, when her survivability is so low. If you were to activate Hysteria when your health is already low you would be unable to boost your attack power very high because you have less health to lose before incoming damage is ignored when only 1hp remains. This is a death sentence for low level Valkyrs and would likely turn most players away from using her. The suggestions made in the original post seem designed to take Hysteria from panic button to being the corner stone of her arsenal, making her what many would consider a to be true berserker. In that instance Hysteria would need to be a complete package that would provide synergy with her other skills, not be dependant upon them.

[Nagisawa]

And remove bladestorm. Something else please.

 

:D

No.  Leave my Bladestorm alone.  Ash is my Solo time away from other 'players'.

[Azamagon]

That still wouldn't solve the problem with Hysteria being unusable as a standalone skill. If you are just starting to use Valkyr it wouldn't matter how low you set the energy cost for Warcry, your total energy reserves would be too low to cast both. It is also at those low levels that she is most in need of her ultimate, when her survivability is so low. If you were to activate Hysteria when your health is already low you would be unable to boost your attack power very high because you have less health to lose before incoming damage is ignored when only 1hp remains. This is a death sentence for low level Valkyrs and would likely turn most players away from using her. The suggestions made in the original post seem designed to take Hysteria from panic button to being the corner stone of her arsenal, making her what many would consider a to be true berserker. In that instance Hysteria would need to be a complete package that would provide synergy with her other skills, not be dependant upon them.

I actually understand what you are saying here, and thus I propose this:

* Warcry gets the health on (melee?) damage done, as Archwizard suggested

* Hysteria grants Valkyr with quite a decent amount of health regeneration

 

Warcry boosts Hysteria, but Hysteria can still stand alone to utilize its "health damage taken = more melee boosted" without any need to RELY on Warcry, especially not on lower levels of gameplay, where the health regen would help the most.

 

So, what do you say about that? :)

[Scintilus]

I approve this thread! +1

[Archwizard]

I actually understand what you are saying here, and thus I propose this:

* Warcry gets the health on (melee?) damage done, as Archwizard suggested

* Hysteria grants Valkyr with quite a decent amount of health regeneration

 

Warcry boosts Hysteria, but Hysteria can still stand alone to utilize its "health damage taken = more melee boosted" without any need to RELY on Warcry, especially not on lower levels of gameplay, where the health regen would help the most.

 

So, what do you say about that? :)

 

Sounds fair, actually, although I feel it might be too many health regeneration abilities... but you have a point that being forced to use Hysteria with Warcry would up the effective cost of her ultimate.

Edited March 29, 2014 by Archwizard

[Azamagon]

Sounds fair, actually, although I feel it might be too many health regeneration abilities...

Doesn't have to be a crazy regen though. Just, say, 1/2/3/4 hp per sec for each rank respectively (or even less if that is considered too high). Not too much, but nothing to scoff at either, especially not on lower levels where she needs all the help she can get.

[XenosInfinity]

I support all of these, especially the Oberon suggestion... Guardian Oath is exactly the sort of skill I'd like to have running into a firefight, and I'd feel considerably less like I'm wasting my energy healing people who never bother to take cover whilst they regenerate.

[ThePresident777]

I enjoy spamming abilities, it's one of Warframe's major draws for me.  So, I don't appreciate any across the board reduction in spam.  In fact, a lot of the abilities that people consider broken, I consider not broken at all and I don't wish to see them nerfed across the entire game.

 

My suggestion to DE is to make the missions into sandboxes with each one(or a set of them) tailored to a particular play style, psycology, customer base, etc.  Get to know your customer.  Then make then a product that satisfies them, in this case, Warframe missions.  You can not satisfy mutually exclusive opinions with compromise.  There is no common ground between mutually exclusive opinions therefore compromise between them is a fail. 

 

I wish Warframe players would realize this and stop driving Scott to drink!  No wonder he keeps wondering, "How can I make this painful?"  You're all tormenting the poor man!

[Annon5150]

Smite's particle need a little tracking on bounces, as it seems like in a lot of maps they just end up getting bounced in to the ceiling and lost. They don't have to auto snipe, but just made so that they head in the general direction of enemies.

I think with Hallowed Ground, giving it the Heal is nice but it's a little small to both be damaging enemies and healing allies. Needs a size increase, but maybe also make it a stop-and-go. Every second spent on it applies a 5 second HoT buff, up to X seconds. So it allows players to sit and charge a long lasting HoT, or just run over for a quick boost.

Guardian's Oath, I like the idea. but I think an HoT already fulfills the role of keeping health up from smaller, weaker attacks. If it could be retooled to be the defense against heavy hitters that might make more sense with Hallowed Ground.

No ideas of Reckoning? Not even a simple change to the puncture/Radiation combo as well?

 

At that point you may as well just make Smite follow enemies and drop HG entirely for GO, cuz it doesnt keep enemies on the carpet long enough

[Archwizard]

I had an epiphany about Ash, but it would require dropping the Shuriken aspect entirely for something else and moving Teleport into its place.

 

Any debuff ideas?

 

Edit: Scratch that, it's a bit bizarre and would probably remove the "teleport anywhere" effect people want so much.

Edited March 30, 2014 by Archwizard