Retune *all* The Frames! (11/19: Wildfire)

[Elydir]

-snip-

 

Its kinda what paladins or at least knights are though in games, tanks with all kinds of group support buffs and healing.

[TheGrimCorsair]

Its kinda what paladins or at least knights are though in games, tanks with all kinds of group support buffs and healing.

No?

 

There are *plenty* of offensively oriented specs/designs for Paladins and Knights in gaming across pretty much all forms of the medium, usually sacrificing some defensive measure for offense, usually nuking harder. You want the quintessential Paladin-tank? Look at Trinity. Can take huge amounts of damage, reflect it back, nuke a single target into oblivion, and has an excellent burst heal+damage resistance. Her abilities are utterly lacking in any kind of AoE offensive capability, a trait specifically not shared with Oberon.

 

I'll say it again: Oberon is a hybrid with vague themes of "Druid and Paladin", unique where he sits and any overhaul of his kit needs to hit all three of those. He's a ranged support caster, healer, tank, and AoE CC'er all at once. That's also the appeal, and core, of his character. That flexibility to immediately plug any hole in any group, to always have the right answer to any situation a team needs, even if it isn't always the strongest when compared to someone hyper-optimized to do that role.

[Archwizard]

No?

 

There are *plenty* of offensively oriented specs/designs for Paladins and Knights in gaming across pretty much all forms of the medium, usually sacrificing some defensive measure for offense, usually nuking harder. You want the quintessential Paladin-tank? Look at Trinity. Can take huge amounts of damage, reflect it back, nuke a single target into oblivion, and has an excellent burst heal+damage resistance. Her abilities are utterly lacking in any kind of AoE offensive capability, a trait specifically not shared with Oberon.

 

I'll say it again: Oberon is a hybrid with vague themes of "Druid and Paladin", unique where he sits and any overhaul of his kit needs to hit all three of those. He's a ranged support caster, healer, tank, and AoE CC'er all at once. That's also the appeal, and core, of his character. That flexibility to immediately plug any hole in any group, to always have the right answer to any situation a team needs, even if it isn't always the strongest when compared to someone hyper-optimized to do that role.

 

To be honest, I've seen just as many if not more that focus on the defensive applications of paladins. They're front-line fighters built for high offense, yes, but they also wear that plate armor and have those healing abilities for a reason. More damage-oriented than a cleric, more support-oriented than a swordsman.

 

The point of Oberon in this rework is that he remains faithful to his role as a jack-of-all-trades, taking minor functions (like the armor buff or flat healing) that are easily exceeded by other classes specialized in their roles (like Blessing), but combining them to increase their effectiveness to match specialized classes (in the OP, by drawing fire onto himself and staggering the damage intake), while still maintaining a unique identity from a frame like Trinity (who as you said, lacks his damage potential and crowd control) or nukers like Ember.

 

What I'm confused by is your previous mention that you don't want him to just be a buffer, but also wanted Reckoning to remain with the note that it buffs allied damage (even though Smite does just that with the augment).

[taiiat]

taking minor functions

aye, as long as they're not so minor that they're basically useless.

but i think we're all aware of that by now.

[Archwizard]

Something that was pointed out to me recently: As a pirate, it makes perfect sense for Hydroid to be able to pillage enemies for things like bonus orbs and ammo. So long as the actual advantage of gaining mods and resources isn't a factor, I agree, and may consider reverting that augment back with that stipulation.

 

So, for the next point of discussion: Hydroid.

 

Presently he's largely considered to be one of the more lackluster Warframes to play at best, and one of the most annoying on a team at worst. What are his merits?

- Chokepoint-oriented crowd control and area-denial mechanics. However, this gets to excessive levels (as it comprises every skill in his kit), with each of his abilities built to focus on their weaknesses to provide excuses to use the others (typically related to their reliability).

- Personal invulnerability, provided by Undertow. This typically is understated (due to his removal from combat when it activates), but shines during events like the current Tactical Alert (where being able to flip a switch and stop a rocket is great). However, this is often seen as a troll-y mechanic due to its effect on the battlefield.

- Limited mobility boosting, provided by Tidal Surge. However, this becomes moot given the large periods he spends immobile with Undertow, and doesn't necessarily blend well with the ranged abilities of his kit. Additionally, its scaling means he could actually slow himself down by casting it if his Duration is low enough.

- Group support, but only when augmented.

 

The tricky part with Hydroid, I think, is in the fact that his attributes make his entire kit more questionable. What I mean is... he's a pirate, a sea monster, and a water elemental above all.

In RPG terms, what is it to play a pirate? The aesthetic is easy to pin down (and Hydroid has, if nothing else, the aesthetics), but the gameplay is difficult to actually execute beyond that. A paladin is a knight with healing abilities and the ability to smite evil, making him a jack of all trades; a necromancer is a minion manipulator with debuffing abilities, who focuses on overwhelming foes; a ninja is a purely offensive unit who makes up for reduced survivability with evasion. What is supposed to be unique about a swashbuckler with a pistol, in a game where everyone can wield a cutlass and pistol at the same time? This question is exactly why he received so many sea monster qualities to set him apart.

 

The direction that I believe would be the best to salvage the elements he already has, is blending the sea monster and pirate qualities - being able to mode shift into Charybdis, at the cost of his Tenno training.

 

Current thoughts:

- Change the baseline Tentacle Swarm to the augment in the OP: Hydroid calls upon tentacles out of his own body, turning himself into a mobile enemy-spearing unit. Keep Pilfering Swarm with the note that it's limited to orbs and ammo, but can create health orbs too.

- Tempest Barrage's explosions also scale with Power Range. Put more emphasis on Tempest Barrage to perform Tentacle Swarm's function; more consistency.

- Consider some way to limit the uptime of Undertow (to prevent excessive trolling or AFKing in it) without limiting its effects (to maintain its use as a snap area CC and invulnerability mechanic). Maintain ability interactions with other skills to transform, as noted in the OP.

Edited February 14, 2016 by Archwizard

[Hammahness808]

^ @ Archwizard

Great post, sorry I don't have anything to add but I had to do more than just upvote it.

 

Edit:

I created a "Rework" thread for Hydroid some time ago, with the Ninja concept more in mind.

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/555763-hydroid-20-the-water-ninja/?hl=hydroid

Edited February 14, 2016 by TGKazein

[Elydir]

What is supposed to be unique about a swashbuckler with a pistol, in a game where everyone can wield a cutlass and pistol at the same time?

 

Unless you gave him a stance like Redeemer, where you have a pistol in one hand and a sword in the other.

[--Q--uaint]

I really like most of your ideas here. Of particular note is your thoughts on Bullet Attractor. It's been a fantastic skill with bad mechanics that spoil much of its utility for too long, and your idea cleanly fixes most or all of them. I'd been trying to come up with a good solution for a quite a while, but yours really does take the cake. Bravo.

 

 

Now, onto (hopefully constructive) criticism...

 

I feel your thoughts on Volt are unhelpful to players who like the frame as it is. I propose that Overload be revamped instead of replaced.

Overload stops being focused on direct damage, and works more from the angle of abusing the environment to wreck people. On cast, an expanding wave of electricity proceeds from Volt and has various effects on the things it encounters. The effects persist until Overload ends.

Instead of destroying electronics, it turns them into Teslas with the additional benefit of bringing any victim under Overload's effects.

Allies are treated as the above electronics, with the same periodic lightning bolts that bring the enemy under Overload's effects.

Enemies affected by Overload are damaged over time, significantly less than the current damage tics. These tics are guaranteed to proc Electric, as normal.

 

 

This turns Overload from a p42w skill to a more CC-oriented, but still damaging, ability. It also supports allies by giving them free CC, like Ballistic Battery. Finally, it gives him a few shades of Vauban (since electricity is one of humanity's best tools, I think that fits) in that he can defend an area (using electronics) or an ally with an occasional zap.

My contention is that Overload should have a low drain because it is target-based; if everything effected by Overload dies, the only remaining effect is roughly equivalent to Volt having a Tesla stuck to him that can stunlock. This introduces a tension about where and when to cast the ability, as well as giving a drain-over-time skill a real reason to cancel the ability and recast immediately.

 

I really like your thought of Speed being recastable, but would like to add a note: if Speed is used in a melee-support capacity, it's unlikely that the group will efficiently be able to regroup for another round of Speed. I've successfully pulled it off with voice-comms, but it wasn't perfect even then, and it was very disruptive to the flow of madly flailing at the hapless enemies.

Therefore, I propose that recasting Speed should refresh the duration on all currently-affected allies regardless of distance.

 

 

Concerning Nekros, I like your idea of damage scaling with the enemy's missing health... but it still doesn't entirely fit the theme of the frame. I think a capital addition to Nekros would be a greater level of control over which enemies you end up summoning with SotD. Seriously, it's silly that you should be punished for killing trash mobs by losing your Bombard summon.

Soul Punch could provide that control by forcing its kills to stay at the top of the list until summoned.

The combination of both changes makes Soul Punch a keystone of the kit: Want that bombard in your SotD list, but don't want to have to worry about overwriting him? Drop him to 3/4 health or so, and with good power strength you'll be able to kill him with Soul Punch. The only thing that would lose you your precious Bombard without summoning him now is making too many other Soul Punch kills, which means your queue is probably full of heavy-hitters anyway.

The best thing, IMO, about this suggestion is that it naturally flows from and enhances how you should be using the abilities anyway: Soul Punch is for instant, safe damage/CC against the targets that scare you the most. SotD is harnessing your worst nightmares to help kill your current fears.

 

 

Also, concerning Banshee: recasting Sonar currently just stacks more vulnerable zones on any affected enemies. Why the nerf?

Also, I feel like Soundquake could use some help... and the fact that it destroys lights greatly affects both Volt and Mirage, so I feel like it shouldn't do that.

 

 

Finally, I feel like something Limbo desperately needs is real CC of some sort: it makes all kinds of sense to have the Rift slow all enemies inside it, scaling with power strength, similar to MPrime. This gives Limbo-as-damage-buffer a real place in higher content since he won't be consistently rekt as soon as he pops Cataclysm.

I don't know that he should have the same Speed-style low strength build as Nova, though it would most likely be very amusing.

 

 

EDIT:

Unless you gave him a stance like Redeemer, where you have a pistol in one hand and a sword in the other.

....except that stances are not frame-specific, and a pistol/sword combo would likely be a separate weapon anyhow.

On that note, maybe give Hydroid a huge passive boost to holster rate. That would allow him to transition more seamlessly than others.

 

It's early for me and this isn't really well thought out, just really don't want to see Oberon become solely a buff bot. There's also the issue of scaling where getting allies to take damage will have Oberon's 4 left in the dust in most groups as the game heavily favors outright stopping or avoiding damage in the first place (through CC and killing speed). Put another way, if a tank's job is to reduce incoming damage, something like Nyx or Nova make superb tanks through the big CC powers. Even if Oberon is tough enough to handle the incoming damage at higher levels, it's going to be a tall order to have the power affect enough enemies, even with the boosted aggro from Hallowed Ground, to attack him to make the ability worthwhile.

Hmmmm.... A thought: Instead of simply blinding anyone who hurts an ally, provide a stronger countermeasure. Once every ~3-5 seconds (cooldown is individual, not for the group), damage to an ally's health is nullified entirely. The nullified damage is then re-used as the base damage of a ~1/4 range Reckoning. The damage would scale with power strength, of course.

This would provide a unique functionality: protection for allies that protects more skilled players more, as well as nuking in a vengeful manner. It also provides the amusing gameplay of rewarding a player for jumping into a Bombard rocket by killing the Bombard.

Edited February 15, 2016 by ChronoEclipse

[Archwizard]

-snip-

 

Wow that's a mouthful. Let me see...

 

- Overload wasn't necessarily replaced; the radial damage effect of it is maintained in how Shock is empowered while Supercharge is active, and the empowerment from electrical appliances is maintained (just spread out over the entire area of each burst).

The problem with Overload right now is that its damage relies too much on the electrical appliances; they're one-time use, and often spread out, making them difficult to weaponize as more than a happy accident. As a CC, its role is shared with the cheaper Shock, unless you need a few seconds to revive a target (in which case, EShields are also an option).

As far as creating Teslas with the effect... that's an available option from shocking his Electric Shields. Your idea of turning allies into beacons of the effect is also an addition I selected for Shield Polarize.

 

- As far as Speed's concerned... eeeeeh? If it just refreshed it for the whole party regardless of distance, you would cast Speed at the start of the mission and just never let it fall off. Not to mention how you could cut into your Range and Duration stats...

 

- Fits the theme of the frame no less than the current iteration. In terms of kit, Soul Punch is presently designed to open a single target up to finishers so that you can easily add them to your Shadow pool; in the OP, it becomes the finisher itself, so you don't need to jump to the front lines and can stay behind your wall of zombies. Aesthetically, what is written in the OP also gives him a Touch of Death or Grim Reaping-style technique... while the current iteration of Soul Punch is just a telekinetic attack that makes zero sense in a necromancer's hands.

Having Soul Punch nudge affected targets up to the top of his Shadow list is plausible. The problem with this kind of change is that, between kills performed by Shadows and your prioritized kills with Soul PUnch, you have to be trying very hard to keep track of how many Bombards you've killed recently - and a UI element to indicate it might become invasive with high amounts of Power Strength (since you can hit around 20 targets).

 

- Hmm. Having Sonar stack must have been a recent addition, I'll be sure to clear that one out of the OP. Soundquake will need to be discussed further.

 

- Giving him a CC was the entire point of the Rift mechanic itself - it's just that in some ways it was poorly executed. For this reason I took care to make sure that the replacement for Rift Surge had CC applications, as well as elevating the CC applications of Banish and Cataclysm themselves (including turning one into a snare to catch all of those pesky Speed!Nova-afflicted enemies).

 

- I believe Annon was referring to giving Hydroid an ability similar to Exalted Blade or Hysteria. A holstering passive might be useful to fit his aesthetic, however.

 

- Eh. Complete damage reflection sort of makes his healing effect redundant (and may even play against the mitigation of his armor effect), while making it inconsistent just means that you'll have allies jumping in front of Bombard rockets that won't be blocked because some Lancer shot them first.

 

Unless you gave him a stance like Redeemer, where you have a pistol in one hand and a sword in the other.

 

I already considered that (it's mentioned in the OP), but it sort of downplays his top-level Water elemental aesthetic in favor of giving him a gimmicky weapon.

Edited February 15, 2016 by Archwizard

[--Q--uaint]

- Overload wasn't necessarily replaced; the radial damage effect of it is maintained in how Shock is empowered while Supercharge is active, and the empowerment from electrical appliances is maintained (just spread out over the entire area of each burst).

The problem with Overload right now is that its damage relies too much on the electrical appliances; they're one-time use, and often spread out, making them difficult to weaponize as more than a happy accident. As a CC, its role is shared with the cheaper Shock, unless you need a few seconds to revive a target (in which case, EShields are also an option).

As far as creating Teslas with the effect... that's an available option from shocking his Electric Shields. Your idea of turning allies into beacons of the effect is also an addition I selected for Shield Polarize..

Yes, I saw that the radial damage would be implemented in empowered Shock. That's fine, I suppose, but then does Shock have Overload's current animation?

If so, that's bad because you can't use normal Shock without dropping and recasting Supercharge. If not, it would probably look weird to have the same animation trigger radial damage instead of normal Shock. Also, is it an expanding wave like Overload? If so, that's another reason to not use Supercharge - Shock's instant activation is one of its nicest features.

 

My idea was to make Volt less dependent on the appliances by making allies (and himself, ofc) available for the same effect. Having the appliances not break on use would be pretty much required for my idea to work, and the fact that they stay active for as long as you channel the ability makes them less sensitive to random factors. The appliances being spread out is fine with my idea: pick which one you want to become a turret, and switch back and forth if you need to... or, because Overload's range is crazy high, max out range and use both at once. The thing I'm most worried about here is the fact that some of the newer tilesets don't seem to have many or any appliances at all.

 

My idea for Overload doesn't really fill the same role as Shock because Overload would still have the overly long cast time and expanding wave... but the ability to have (perhaps not perfect, but) sustained CC over a large (and potentially non-contiguous) area, spreading to new targets via appliances and affected Tenno. Also of note is that the affected enemies would be unable to spread Overload's full effects, they can and will chain to new unfortunates if they get a chance (more use of environment to boost the ability).

My Overload concept is basically another take on Firequake-aug'd WoF, with less emphasis on the current location of the caster.

 

Your description of the effect of Shocking an Electric Shield gave me the impression that it was an effect that triggered only on contact with the shield, to give it utility vs melee assailants. I suppose I stand corrected, but they Electric Shields wouldn't be following your allies around finding enemies to zap.

 

It's true that you used the idea of proccing off allies for Shield Polarize, but nothing says it can't be on both. Mag and Volt are kinda sister/brother 'frames, so it makes sense that they'd have some similarities. Also, Shield Polarize is a heal/kill skill, while Overload would have damage as a sideshow to the CC; the abilities' roles have very little overlap.

 

 

- As far as Speed's concerned... eeeeeh? If it just refreshed it for the whole party regardless of distance, you would cast Speed at the start of the mission and just never let it fall off. Not to mention how you could cut into your Range and Duration stats...

That was definitely the point, though I see why you object. I suppose it's also stepping on Eternal War's toes. Oh well.

 

 

- Fits the theme of the frame no less than the current iteration. In terms of kit, Soul Punch is presently designed to open a single target up to finishers so that you can easily add them to your Shadow pool; in the OP, it becomes the finisher itself, so you don't need to jump to the front lines and can stay behind your wall of zombies. Aesthetically, what is written in the OP also gives him a Touch of Death or Grim Reaping-style technique... while the current iteration of Soul Punch is just a telekinetic attack that makes zero sense in a necromancer's hands.

Having Soul Punch nudge affected targets up to the top of his Shadow list is plausible. The problem with this kind of change is that, between kills performed by Shadows and your prioritized kills with Soul PUnch, you have to be trying very hard to keep track of how many Bombards you've killed recently - and a UI element to indicate it might become invasive with high amounts of Power Strength (since you can hit around 20 targets).

That's... what I was saying? I was saying it's closer to fully fitting the theme of the 'frame, but not entirely there yet. Thinking about it a bit more, I think your idea is about as close as you could get without completely changing the power. Also, telekinesis is a generic magic thing, and necromancers are just specialized wizards. I don't see you complaining about Slash Dash's power of flight not fitting Excal's sword theme :P (I jest, but Soul Punch's theming isn't terribly problematic; making it synergize with the rest of his kit better is my focus here.)

 

Why is it more important now how many Bombards you've killed recently? You did not suggest in the OP that there would be a UI element added to track the summon list, and neither did I. My idea is just a nice buff that works organically with the kit.

If there had to be a UI element added to help you track, all I'd do is put a number on top of Soul Punch (like the duration counters) that displays how many prioritized kills you have stored.

 

 

- Giving him a CC was the entire point of the Rift mechanic itself - it's just that in some ways it was poorly executed. For this reason I took care to make sure that the replacement for Rift Surge had CC applications, as well as elevating the CC applications of Banish and Cataclysm themselves (including turning one into a snare to catch all of those pesky Speed!Nova-afflicted enemies).

Hmm. Maybe I just don't entirely understand how your new ability and mechanics work.

TBH, I feel that the Rift CC's Limbo about as much as his enemies, making him somewhat less useful than a 'frame with no abilities at all. Particularly given his squishiness.

Regardless, my idea here was based on my experience running T4S with a high range/strength Limbo. I had a very strong damage buff that gave me hilariously high damage.... but it was utterly unnecessary up until the point where popping Cataclysm on enemies just got me killed. At that point, I pretty well had two options: 1) Pop Cataclysm from hiding, let my allies kill with the damage buff while I twiddle my thumbs. 2) Hide in the Rift, play the normal Limbo rezzbot game (a role for which low-ish duration and trash efficiency are... unhelpful).

Since I was tired of dying randomly, I picked #2. I still managed to convince the squad that Limbo wasn't utterly useless, but it was almost the absolute worst build for that kind of play I could reasonably make.

 

 

- I believe Annon was referring to giving Hydroid an ability similar to Exalted Blade or Hysteria. A holstering passive might be useful to fit his aesthetic, however.

...oh. I suppose that could work, but IMO we have too many of that kind of ability already. I suppose if it was unique enough..... HEH. Give him an Exalted Anchor with chain included. That would be hilarious and potentially awesome.

 

 

- Eh. Complete damage reflection sort of makes his healing effect redundant (and may even play against the mitigation of his armor effect), while making it inconsistent just means that you'll have allies jumping in front of Bombard rockets that won't be blocked because some Lancer shot them first.

It's not complete damage reflection, it has gaps. Since it would have the Reckoning effect on enemies and probably have a visual effect to indicate when the protection is ready, I don't think that should be a problem.

Perhaps a more prudent implementation than single-hit would be Nullifier bubble style. Minimum number of hits to go down + slight grace period. When the shield pops, the Reckoning goes off with all the absorbed damage (potentially lots of it, if the ward can regenerate after being partially depleted) and the previously-protected person can now fully benefit from Oberon's armor buff and the knowledge that he's unprotected for the next ~5 seconds.

I think it's workable, and gives him both active defense of party members as well as a scaling-damage nuke ability. Sounds like a paladin skill to me.

 

EDIT: formatting/consistency

Edited February 15, 2016 by ChronoEclipse

[taiiat]

Give him an Exalted Anchor with chain included.

with a Cannon on the other end of the Chain?

lol.

 

screw your Gunblade, Hydroid has a Gun...whip?

[Aquasurge]

I'm all out of helpful for the day, but...

 

SHARKNADO

yes, laser-eye shooting sharks swimming in a water tornado for hydroid - grineer shipwreck confirmed.

[SolidAcid]

Ivara should have Artemis bow arrow customization?

[Phyrak]

Hydroid sounds good

Though, I would love if his 4 was a full on water transformation into some sort of cthuhulu

Then with the 4 being used - his one should turn into a tentacle whip akin to the bloodborn dlc squid people

Have it as finisher + bleed would be rad

[BeardyKyle]

Not really a big hydroid player, like his look but never liked is kit. So here's some suggestions from someone who's know very little abt the frame.

Jet cutter (pirate mode) - hydroid uses his hand like a pirate pistol and fires a pressurized stream/bullet of water from his fingertip capable of cutting through armor and flesh. Does puncture dmg, knockback and punch through.

Tidal surge (surfer mobility mode) - hydroid surrounds himself in a wave and does a shoulder charge knocking down and disorienting enemies, enemies who survive are stunned for a short time and take x3 electricity damage for the duration. Toggle ability where hydroid loses parkour movement but is able to ride the wave, giving him surfing mobility. Imagine fire walker but with surfing.

Undertow - not sure what this ability does besides create a puddle and make him invincible, and heal him I think? Keep it as is cause of my lack of in...BUT adding some synergy with his fourth.

Kraken (exalted sea monster mode) - hydroid creates six tentacles on his back and two on his arms and has new melee animations, imagine whip combos but with tentacles. Using his 1 while this is active fires 8 jet cutters at as many enemies as can be targeted. Using undertow will create a puddle and store the kraken tentacles in it to defend a spot while u are free to move around and use weapons, and u still get some benefits from undertow being active like health regen. Think effigy but with a smaller tentacle swarm. Deactivating undertow will return to kraken mode.

His 2,3,4 are all drain abilities that stack

Edited February 15, 2016 by BeardyKyle

[--Q--uaint]

enemies who survive are stunned for a short time and take x3 electricity damage for the duration.

Oh, cool. I hadn't thought of that. +1.

[Archwizard]

-snip-

 

- No to the animation, yes to the wave. More targets per cast at the cost of the instant effect, gives you some reason not to have Supercharge perpetually active.

 

- Think of it this way: If Volt had a way to attach Teslas to allies, it would diminish the value of Vauban's ability to attach Teslas to allies.

 

- Necromancers are specialized wizards, yes, but with enough facets on their own to make wasting one of those slots on a generic wizard ability (amongst other wizard-like Warframes, mind) sort of a waste of potential. But, not relevant.

I mention a UI element because, if the player has express control over what is in the composition of their next Shadows cast, then it matters that the player know what he's summoning (as opposed to having limited control over the composition due to its influence by in-game AI and being forced to roll with it).

 

- It's not really fair to say that Limbo is CC'd by the Rift. While yes, he can't fight enemies on the opposite side, he has absolute control over who or what he brings with him and an ample supply of energy to make sure he never has a limit to that advantage.

In one manner, Cataclysm can be used to create an arena through which he can channel the bonus of his Rift Surge, but as you said, it's offset but his low survivability. The idea presented in the OP is that Cataclysm could alternately be used to temporarily invert his abilities - a mass snare for when he's out of the Rift, through which Banish can be used to snipe enemies in the material plane, at the cost of the damage buff provided by Rift Surge (now merged into Rift Walk). For personal defense, his Rift Gate can keep enemies confused while he maneuvers around them, in case he does choose to convert it into an arena he can snipe upon from within the Rift.

Really, it's a matter of increasing Limbo's versatility, and the consistency of the Rift. His present skill ceiling only allows room for two strategies, as you mentioned, and I intend to give him more.

 

- I meant that the reflection was 100% for one hit and 0% for the four hits that followed: Complete reflection, but inconsistent.

The bubble thing could maybe work? But it sounds far too complex and focused on minute details of calculation to maximize. Part of the key of Warframe's class design is keeping things simple enough for players to comprehend, yet broad enough to utilize in multiple scenarios.

Edited February 16, 2016 by Archwizard

[--Q--uaint]

- No to the animation, yes to the wave. More targets per cast at the cost of the instant effect, gives you some reason not to have Supercharge perpetually active.

 

- Think of it this way: If Volt had a way to attach Teslas to allies, it would diminish the value of Vauban's ability to attach Teslas to allies.

If the animation is removed, then you again have the problem of not being able to do the stuff in the cinematic trailer.

 

Supercharge, as an ability, is pretty lame. Note how there's only two benefits that aren't "change another power's effect."

Buffing duration of procs is already another frame's passive ability, and works for all procs.

Getting power strength from appliances is kinda cool, but only benefits you if you cast other powers.

 

Even neo-Saryn, who's utterly dependent on ability synergy, still actually does something significant when you cast any one of her powers.

 

Yes, giving Volt the ability to attach Teslas to allies diminishes Vauban's uniqueness... but not to a large extent.

Teslas can be spammed; neo-Overload would grant at most one per target.

Teslas' purpose is to directly protect an object or area. Neo-Overload's would be to spread the CC, so that maintaining the ability continues to be worth the cost.

I think that it's reasonable to rework that, though. Instead of effectively Tesla'ing allies, affected allies would be able to spread the effects of Overload by meleeing.

 

This brings me to a thought for a passive for Volt: give a % of all melee damage he deals back to him as shields. My initial thought here was either 1%, or 10% with no spillover into overshields. Both in tandem would also work. This would help solidify his role as a melee-focused, shield-focused frame (as a bit of an alternative/supplement to lifestrike).

 

Also, relating to your thoughts on ability interactions: Shocking Speed could easily be co-opted into Supercharge's effects on Speed. Another idea is to add a Landslide-ish zoom-to-target mechanic on all Supercharged-Speed-enhanced melee attacks.

 

I really dislike the idea of making Electric Shield act like Energy Shell while Speed is active. Those using Electric Shield to protect Mobile Defense objectives would protest, I think.

Also, the mechanics of AoE in this game favor the ability to make an obstacle between you and a Bombard, then back up so the AoE doesn't still hit you.

Another thing to think about would be making Electric Shield's damage bonuses scale with Power Strength.

 

 

I mention a UI element because, if the player has express control over what is in the composition of their next Shadows cast, then it matters that the player know what he's summoning (as opposed to having limited control over the composition due to its influence by in-game AI and being forced to roll with it).

I really don't see where you're coming from. Having more control =/= having more information, and having the prioritization would improve QoL for Nekros players (particularly if your bonus damage for missing health is implemented) even if nobody knew that it worked that way. They'd use Soul Punch to finish off priority targets, and in turn get to summon them however much trash they killed before their next SotD cast.

My only worry here would be scaling missions, where a Nekros player fills up his queue at 2 min, stops killing with Soul Punch, then casts SotD at 30 min. Perhaps a 10+ level gap would override priority?

 

Basically, I disagree. Like I said, simply knowing how many prioritized targets he has stored, and knowing what targets he'd use Soul Punch on (something he should know going into the mission), will give the Nekros player all he needs to know without cluttering up the screen.

That said, it's your topic. You do you ;3

 

 

- Limbo

I still don't know what you mean by Rift Gate keeping enemies confused. I do see now how it increases his survivability in a unique way, though.

I feel like there are more things that should be added/changed, but I don't know what they'd be. I guess I'd just need to play around with it to fully figure out what I think.

 

 

 

- I meant that the reflection was 100% for one hit and 0% for the four hits that followed: Complete reflection, but inconsistent.

The bubble thing could maybe work? But it sounds far too complex and focused on minute details of calculation to maximize. Part of the key of Warframe's class design is keeping things simple enough for players to comprehend, yet broad enough to utilize in multiple scenarios.

Nullifier bubbles already exist. It'd be based on that, and just reward you for catching heavy hits on the bubble instead of yourself.

Regarding focus on minute details making maximization difficult, I entirely disagree.

Being a channeled power, duration/efficiency would work on the drain.

Duration should probably also affect the radiation procs and how long the blind lasts on the Reckonings.

The Reckonings' base damage would be determined by <ability rank modifier>*<damage absorbed by the bubble>, and scale normally from there with power strength.

Range would boost the Reckonings' AoE and blind radius.

The bubble itself would probably have its HP pool augmented by power strength, but just as easily not be.

The downtime between Reckoning and bubble return would be unmoddable, as would be the size of the bubble.

 

All of this is pretty cut-and-dried, with scaling mechanics directly ripped from other abilities.

 

 

The more I think about Exalted Anchor, the more I like it. I'm thinking it would have relatively unique mechanics: does NOT scale with melee mods, and has relatively low damage. In return, every strike ragdolls, and it deals pure finisher damage.

Finally, the center of the anchor would be a shotgun that scales with shotgun mods.

The stance would be a horrible lovechild of High Noon and Defiled Snapdragon.

As for name... Midshipman's Hope? Hue....

Edited February 16, 2016 by ChronoEclipse

[Archwizard]

-snip-

 

- Overload animation could remain on the cast of Supercharge, or even be recycled as an augment to Supercharge. Technically the animation in the trailer isn't 100% accurate anyway (as it presents Volt as capable of floating the entire time).

 

- I'd considered having Supercharge be able to increase your damage instead of Power Strength (overall, it just means it swaps the benefit from Speed to Electric Shield). However, I considered the main point of Volt: He has always been advertised as a potent "alternative to gunplay", and I wanted to keep an emphasis on the use of his abilities to maintain that.

 

- Here's the thing: Having Volt emit electrical shocks from allies... is already something he can do. As you mentioned, it's called Shocking Speed.

In fact, half the ideas you mention of having allies deal bonus Electrical damage are things Volt can already pull off, between Electric Shield as a baseline and the Shock Trooper augment. The idea of the rework was to make him the Black Mage of the starters (to Mag's White Mage and Excalibur's Fighter), not simply relegate him to yet another group buffer/debuffer.

 

- Not sure your passive really fits for him, to be honest. Sure, Speed encourages melee, but shields have always been more of Mag's domain. As the Electrical Warframe, his passive should have something to do with enhancing electrical effects.

 

- Your snap-to target version of Supercharged Speed is... interesting. May consider swapping it in.

 

- Having the ability to lift Electric Shield has been a community request longer than Energy Shell has been around. Without that capability, Volt's kit has no sense of direction; Speed gives him a green light, Electric Shield gives him red. It absolutely should be in his rework to blend the two, it's only a matter of how he attains it.

Further, the effect as written in the OP is only when you cast EShield while Speed is active. It's a mode shift: If you're running around you can carry it, and if you let it fall you can bunker down. It wouldn't affect any shields that were cast before you tap Speed; just drop it and run.

 

- I'll throw in the prioritization. Wasn't really against arguing it, just the inevitable secondary requests attached.

 

- By "confuse", I mean in the same sense as how enemies are confused by the effects of Switch Teleport, looking around and pondering where they are and how they got there.

As far as "more", Limbo's kit already has a fair bit with the Rift mechanic, it's mostly a matter of adding some consistency and removing (or expanding upon) redundancies.

 

- Nullifier bubbles exist, and relatively few people understand exactly how they work. A player should never be given an ability they can't understand both the benefits and weaknesses of intuitively.

Besides, half the main defense of Nullifier bubbles is that they have a limit on the amount of shrinkage they can suffer in a single frame, which is reinforced by the amount of damage 1-4 Tenno can inflict at once. Enemies typically come in droves, with common units who use automatic weapons.

The other half is that we're too threatened to enter the barrier because of the cost of abilities. Enemies have no such quarrels, and a lot of melee units between Grineer and Infested who would roll their eyes at the shield instead of hacking it up.

 

- We're not going with Exalted Anchor. Didn't give a sword-and-board to Oberon because there are almost too many "substitute weapon" abilities already.

[DrBorris]

Hydroid's 4 is just bad. I can tell you really tried to take the tentacle concept and make it into something useful, but at some point you need to just let things go. Hydroid is a water frame, an awesome concept with tons of possibilities and what does DE do with it? Constrict its abilities to a "pirate" theme (that is not even acknowledged in any material at this point). Maybe it is just me, but I would rather have a water frame than a pirate frame.

 

Just let the tentacles die.

 

Sure, they could be reworked into something good that does not directly overlap with his 1, but why not do something that actually fits into his in-game story... water (not some weird portal master).

 

Just some random ideas...

-An "exalted" form where Hydroid becomes a CC god and has a bunch of abilities that replace his melee, bullet jump and primary that are water themed and stop enemies from doing anything.

-A toggled massive swirling wall of water around Hydroid that absorbs all projectiles and traps all enemies into its swirl (DoT)until it is de-toggled, Hydroid can move at Prowl speed while active.

-A Vortex/Undertow (Water spouts/whirlpools?) hybrid that can be cast multiple times.

 

These all probably suck, but for a water frame Hydroid's ult is rather... not water-y.

[--Q--uaint]

- I'd considered having Supercharge be able to increase your damage instead of Power Strength (overall, it just means it swaps the benefit from Speed to Electric Shield). However, I considered the main point of Volt: He has always been advertised as a potent "alternative to gunplay", and I wanted to keep an emphasis on the use of his abilities to maintain that.

That's fine... but it'd still be the only ability in the game that literally doesn't do anything.

Also, can you imagine the feeling of a new player going "Yes! I finally unlocked Supercharge! Let's see my 'frame's true potential!" only to see literally nothing happen when they press 4. It's very counterintuitive to the rest of the game.

 

- Here's the thing: Having Volt emit electrical shocks from allies... is already something he can do. As you mentioned, it's called Shocking Speed.

In fact, half the ideas you mention of having allies deal bonus Electrical damage are things Volt can already pull off, between Electric Shield as a baseline and the Shock Trooper augment. The idea of the rework was to make him the Black Mage of the starters (to Mag's White Mage and Excalibur's Fighter), not simply relegate him to yet another group buffer/debuffer.

It's not actually the same; Shock Trooper and Electric Shield both grant bonus damage for the purpose of killing faster. Shocking Speed grants close-range, short-term CC and damage. Neo-Overload would grant long-term CC.

 

Excalibur fits more into "warrior-god cast in steel and fury" than "fighter." Mag is a Red Mage, if anything.

 

- Not sure your passive really fits for him, to be honest. Sure, Speed encourages melee, but shields have always been more of Mag's domain. As the Electrical Warframe, his passive should have something to do with enhancing electrical effects.

Yes, but Volt is billed as an "alternative to gunplay" and one of his abilities is one of the stronger buffs to melee that exists. At the same time, he's got average health and low armor. This passive gives him a little more incentive to go use that attack speed boost.

Regarding theme, electricity and magnetism are two sides of the same coin. I don't see a conflict here.

 

- Having the ability to lift Electric Shield has been a community request longer than Energy Shell has been around. Without that capability, Volt's kit has no sense of direction; Speed gives him a green light, Electric Shield gives him red. It absolutely should be in his rework to blend the two, it's only a matter of how he attains it.

Further, the effect as written in the OP is only when you cast EShield while Speed is active. It's a mode shift: If you're running around you can carry it, and if you let it fall you can bunker down. It wouldn't affect any shields that were cast before you tap Speed; just drop it and run.

Fair enough. I'm not opposed to the option of being able to use Electric Shield on the go, but making it tied to Speed is a bad plan. Just make it a hold-cast like for Quiver.

 

I've been struck by another idea for an Overload rework: play off his current affinity for nuking crowds.

Overload would make the expanding wave that procs electricity and does damage over time... but much less than currently.

Overload would be a channeled skill with a high drain, and all damage dealt by the ability is tracked. (For reasons, it could even now support the trailer animation, looping until you release.)

Upon release of Overload, the total damage done by the ability would be dealt to all enemies in the ability.

Realistically, the above statement would have the qualifier of a modifier like 0.2/0.4/0.6/0.8x the total damage dealt.

It would be still a p42w skill, but would require a bit of time to build up enough damage to actually kill (especially with almost everything resisting electric) that simply running through a level spamming it wouldn't do much.

It would also scale very nicely against tightly-packed crowds, since the DoT will be proccing, which will chain.

 

 

- By "confuse", I mean in the same sense as how enemies are confused by the effects of Switch Teleport, looking around and pondering where they are and how they got there.

So they'd be "confused" whenever they touched the Gate?

Also, it'd be nice if you provided a little clarification on things like whether the Gate has a duration or other such things.

 

 

- Nullifier bubbles exist, and relatively few people understand exactly how they work. A player should never be given an ability they can't understand both the benefits and weaknesses of intuitively.

Besides, half the main defense of Nullifier bubbles is that they have a limit on the amount of shrinkage they can suffer in a single frame, which is reinforced by the amount of damage 1-4 Tenno can inflict at once. Enemies typically come in droves, with common units who use automatic weapons.

The other half is that we're too threatened to enter the barrier because of the cost of abilities. Enemies have no such quarrels, and a lot of melee units between Grineer and Infested who would roll their eyes at the shield instead of hacking it up.

I suppose I see your point there, though I grasped very quickly without research that full auto >>>> everything else for null-slaying.

The benefits and weaknesses of the bubble consist of effectively one thing: the bubble will protect you for about the same amount of time regardless of enemy level.

I think it'd be fair for the bubble to take a "hit" and proc impact on anything trying to walk through. It would only count as the minimum amount of damage for the purposes of the Reckonings, but it would CC anybody trying to melee you before Reckoning-ing them.

 

An alternative formulation would be a base ~30% damage reduction on allies, with damage taken being stored and a Reckoning being distributed on health damage. There'd have to be a cooldown or something on that, though.

 

 

- We're not going with Exalted Anchor. Didn't give a sword-and-board to Oberon because there are almost too many "substitute weapon" abilities already.

Aww :c

*mumble grumble*Supercharge*mumble grumble*

[Archwizard]

-snip-

 

- I'm always considering adjustments to maintain the integrity of the ability; however, the fact remains that Overload on its own is a fairly redundant ability. Frankly, CCs like "Neo-Overload" are a dime a dozen (especially with Shock to perform the same stun), the "environment boobytrapping" effect has been tried with Sleight of Hand (which would affect more on each map, given how spread out appliances are), while the oft-suggested ability to supercharge his own powers offers something new to his kit.

There are a lot of ultimates out there that don't do anything if all you do is Press 4. Hek, it really just encourages me that more players wouldn't instantly nuke the map.

 

- There's enough distinction between "electricity" and "magnetism" to make them separate elements with separate effects, represented by separate Warframes. Ice is just frozen water, perhaps Hydroid should be able to freeze enemies? Heat is just another form of kinetic energy, should Rhino be able to set enemies on fire with his Charge?

 

- Threw the mobile Electric Shield on as the effect of Supercharging it.

 

- The new idea for Overload... sounds an awful lot like Maim. Only with worse damage scaling.

 

- They'd be confused any time Limbo teleports using the gate if they were focusing on him. "Now you see me~" "Huh? Where'd he go?"

 

- Sounds like you're getting closer to Warding Halo now, only bigger.

 

- Supercharge literally doesn't even substitute a weapon.

Edited February 16, 2016 by Archwizard

[--Q--uaint]

I play Volt a lot, and it's never felt redundant. (Barring instances where I min/maxed the range to be so trash I couldn't hit anything with it)

Even if there are Warframes that don't actually do anything when you press 4 (only one I can think of is a Nekros with no kills, and that hardly counts), those aren't the starter 'frames.

I'm willing to agree my ideas are bad and I should feel bad, but I don't think Supercharge is the best way to go with Volt. Particularly with being a starter, his #4 needs to do something aside from boosting other abilities. An easy solution would be to give him another #2 and just roll Speed into Supercharge.

 

 

Your line-drawing is a little undermined by the fact that Volt is a shield-focused frame. If he wasn't, I'd have never come up with that passive for him.

Frost is "cold," not "ice." Hydroid's abilities with water do not imply that he should be able to manipulate temperature... though incorporating steam or ice might be cool and help his kit, actually.

I think it'd be absolutely reasonable for a (particularly if super high speed/range) Rhino Charge to set things on fire. That's how the physical rules work. Magic doesn't have to ignore physics, and is frequently more entertaining when it doesn't.

 

 

- They'd be confused any time Limbo teleports using the gate if they were focusing on him. "Now you see me~" "Huh? Where'd he go?"

Oh, right. That's... kinda a weird mechanic. Maybe make it an augment? Call it "Warp Gate" or something...

 

 

- Sounds like you're getting closer to Warding Halo now, only bigger.

Fair point. I still like the idea of "absorb damage, then Reckoning" rather than just distributing piecemeal blinds.

 

 

- Supercharge literally doesn't even substitute a weapon.

It fits with the weapon ults in that it's a mode-shift with no "instant effect," only boosting other actions.

Also, actual weapon ults all make it super-clear that you now have a swaggin' new weapon... I can't think of a good way to tell the player "You should go and use other powers now that you have this one on" with good visual communication.

Another thing is that ults are frequently a good thing to drop right as you go down, so your teammates have some cover to rez you... Supercharge has nothing of the sort.

 

 

PS: I thought of some abilities that "do nothing" on cast.

Defy. Even then, you don't need to cast another power to get it to help you in any way/shape/form.

Nova's first power, when minimized on duration, also does nothing. But that's doing literally nothing, rather than its stated effect being to do nothing on its own. Plus, you also really have to try to get that to happen. Not only does minimizing duration trash all of her other abilities, but it's quite difficult and costly to do.

Another contender is Mend... which a large portion of the community is already whining about. We don't want another Mend.

Edited February 17, 2016 by ChronoEclipse

[taiiat]

Another thing is that ults are frequently a good thing to drop right as you go down, so your teammates have some cover to rez you... Supercharge has nothing of the sort.

this pinhole way of thinking drags the game down.

 

Warframes have 4 Abilities. as long as the first one or two are useful without Mods, it literally doesn't matter what Ability is on what button.

'ult' is a term that should not belong in Warframe. this implies that as the number button is higher, an Ability MUST be universally superior to the ones before it.

 

that is mindbogglingly destructive for the game. Warframes should have 4 Abilities that are distinctly useful, have some synergistic relations with each other, but don't just supercede each other in order to fit some League of Legends Character Model when, last i checked, this isn't a MOBA.

 

similarly, Energy Costs should not be automatically 25/50/75/100. Energy Costs should be logical in context of the Ability that's in that slot.

 

 

 

there is no good reason why Warframes could, should, or Dr.seussaplould follow some strict model that's made for a completely different type of game.

it artificially limits the capabilities of every Warframe and also contorts their Abilities into every button being more mapwipe AoE Blast than the last one in order to actually fill that complete supersession Character Model.

 

Edit:

this isn't really directed towards you specifically, but to everyone - for the love of everything, if you actually care about Warframe, don't treat Warframe Abilities like a MOBA. treat them like Warframe.

Edited February 16, 2016 by taiiat

[ShogunGunshow]

I'd like to see Bladestorm remade, honestly. Something like:

 

"Ash uses the energy in his suit combined with Orokin chemicals to release an obscuring miasma with a radius of X meters. Within the fog, Ash's melee strikes have dramatically increased lunge, lock on, and deal Finishing damage. Enemies within the fog are confused, likely to attack each other, and suffer a dramatic hit to accuracy when attempting to shoot Ash."

 

But then I realize I'm basically combining Smoke Screen and Teleport together.

 

Maybe something with Dopplegangers, instead. Dopples do damage, and if Ash receives fatal damage while they're up, a Doppleganger is consumed and Ash is restored to full health and shields (bonus points if the dopple 'poofs' into an environmental object a la substitution technique). But then it's basically a reflavored Atlas ult that has a survivability component attached. The AI would have to be extremely aggressive to be worth it.