Retune *all* The Frames! (11/19: Wildfire)

[tnccs215]

45 minutes ago, blaes said:

no to cooldowns. the devs are trying to avoid them, with reason : they break the pace of the game.

your other suggestion (reduction on every ability energy cost) seems better to me.

Apparently, not even DE agrees with that for the moment. Otherwise, Focus wouldnt have cooldowns.

Cooldowns only "break the pace of the game" if they are poorly implemented. And they break it has much as lack of or excessive Energy cost.

Energy Vampire, as it stands, breaks the pace of the game substantially more than cooldowns.

[blaes]

about well of life :

that solves all the problems (target no visible enough, target instakilled, target "expired" (ie : left 2+ rooms behind)), except one :

the person needing the heal generally needs it fast, not ideal when they need to

1) expose themselves to shoot the target in the middle of a pack, resulting in endangering an already weakened player

or

2) backtrack to a previously cleared room (where a target is still activated) to avoid exposing themselves, breaking the pace of the game for said player, and potentially isolating him from the team

2bis) wait for the team to clear the pack so he can heal quietly, same consequences as 2)

 

but that problem is already present on the current well of life, and the modifications you suggested seem pretty solid to make well of life decent.

a possibility would be to make the heal an AoE (on top of your modifications), and delete the heal from blessing, leaving it a pure protection ability.

 

about cooldowns :

yes, they put a cooldown on focus abilities. the result is that those abilities are pretty much only used for the passives (and the actives are just a situational bonus, when they are unlocked at all), and players in pub asking others to wait before starting the mission so that they can have their focus passives activated (seen that a good number of times in sorties).

Edited March 27, 2016 by blaes
clarification

[tnccs215]

12 minutes ago, blaes said:

snip

Well, the act of attempting to kill an enemy, whenever, wherever, exposes someone. I dont think the exposition of players is an important drawback-- I see it more as a trade off. Risk, and you get healed. HOWEVER, removing blessings healing properties is... Interesting. And if that was implemented, I agree that making it aoe (and maybe even removing the heal limit. Maybe).

Regarding backtracking: That is why I introduced multiple possible wells of life. It will fall upon the trin to ensure that the team is healed when it must: But be too generous and there will be consequences.

Edited March 27, 2016 by tnccs215

[Archwizard]

It's funny, Trinity players whine so much that she gets nerfed so often, but when you examine the issues of the game on a grand scale, you really understand why she does.

7 minutes ago, tnccs215 said:

Apparently, not even DE agrees with that for the moment. Otherwise, Focus wouldnt have cooldowns.

Cooldowns only "break the pace of the game" if they are poorly implemented. And they break it has much as lack of or excessive Energy cost.

I think Focus is the reason why they didn't want other abilities to have cooldowns - it makes Focus more distinct, and goes towards making the energy cost more important (since you're limited by "I need 50 energy to cast this" rather than "I just need to get 50 energy every 30 seconds").

[tnccs215]

53 minutes ago, Archwizard said:

It's funny, Trinity players whine so much that she gets nerfed so often, but when you examine the issues of the game on a grand scale, you really understand why she does.

Agreed, but I actually can see their point... A bit.

She is a goddess. She needs nerfs. To EV and Blessing, specifically. And her other powers (specially WoL) would do well with some tweaking -- though not obligatorily nerfs. But I suppose their cry is due to the fact that trinity has little effect on the battle field. In the end, what's the use of having eternal energy if none of your abilities demand spamming and use after use (Blessing should be a "OH SH!T" power, not what we have now)? She has very little effect in a lot of things beyond energy and healing. She does not buff, she does not debuff, she does not CC, she does not kill. All she does is give energy and Heal. And those might be incredibly powerful things: But they aren't a lot. In the end, take her this, and you take her everything. They are afraid, I believe, she'l be sent to oblivion. And lets be honest: With too hard nerfs, she just might.

However, her current state is way worse than that hypothetical irrelevance. A useless frame is dead weight and a waste of potential, no doubt. But it also doesn't break the game and creates toxic environments of repetition and cheese. An overpowered frame does.

I think she needs a rework. Even more than Volt, or Mag, or Equinox, or Banshee, or whatever. Only when Trinity is balanced, and pizzas get cooldowns, we can consider removing thinks such as cheese masters nullifiers and sapping ospreys.

 

54 minutes ago, Archwizard said:

It's funny, Trinity players whine so much that she gets nerfed so often, but when you examine the issues of the game on a grand scale, you really understand why she does.

I think Focus is the reason why they didn't want other abilities to have cooldowns - it makes Focus more distinct, and goes towards making the energy cost more important (since you're limited by "I need 50 energy to cast this" rather than "I just need to get 50 energy every 30 seconds").

mh... Maybe. Still, extreme measures for extreme cases. However, I really wont insist because you do are right: Congruency throughout the board is pleasent, and my idea is just one between... Well, many.

[Archwizard]

Made a reddit thread to discuss Trinity further.

So far I seem to be in a war with people who think there are "bigger cases of power creep" than her, to which they act like the statement is self-explanatory.

[tnccs215]

12 minutes ago, Archwizard said:

Made a reddit thread to discuss Trinity further.

So far I seem to be in a war with people who think there are "bigger cases of power creep" than her, to which they act like the statement is self-explanatory.

AAaaah, the "there are more important things to discuss, therefore you shouldn't discuss this because apparently forums and reddit only allow one topic to be discussed at a time" argument.

We gotta love deniers, dont we?

[tnccs215]

Well, since this topic already derailed a lot inits life time, I suppose I can derail it a bit more:

I suppose we can all agree that healing is rather lacking around warframe, being reduced to some key frames (with various levels of success and exploitivity) and consumables. However, it is impossible for your common tenno to heal themself without either being accompanied by one of said healing frames, or by having stockpiled in quite an amount of consumables... Or, without having life strike.

Being more direct, what do you think about making some variation of life strike inmate to channeling? It is no secret channeling needs a rework (cost must be dps based and not hit based, more variation on damage multiplier, better mods, etc), and I believe this could be a good change. It would grant some level of self healing to all frames (specially useful for newer players), and it would buff melee a bit. Of course, it might be a too cheap band aid fix.

what do you think?

[blaes]

so, rework proposal for trinity :

the point would be to avoid redundant powers / to separate the different functions on different powers, and making it all around a little more balanced.

keep in mind that all her powers need to be reworked simultaneously for it to be viable.

 

1) Well of Life :

becomes the sole healing ability from trinity. no more redundancy between well of life and blessing. it becomes a cheap, effective heal, that requires interaction.

the skill functions the same in principle (heal based on damage done to the target), but with several tweaks to make it viable:

- when someone hit the target, the heal is applied on AoE. every ally in range is healed. the one needing a heal doesn't need to expose himself.

- target is invincible : all damage is stored, and applied when the ability ends.  no more target getting instantly killed, before someone can get in range, and needing immediate recasting.

- better target designation : visual flash similar to focus boosters when ability is cast, with a marker when the target isn't in direct line of sight. when in line of sight, the target glows with a powerful aura (visible through enemies if applicable). the target is also suspended higher in the air (ideally, the feet of the target should be roughly level with the head of other units). easy to spot, easy to hit.

finally, either :

a) recasting well of life prematurely detags the current target, applies stored damage and allows next cast to tag a new target

or b) 4 targets can be marked with well of life at any time (one target per cast). duration cannot be ended prematurely, you need to wait for the natural expiration of the ability for the damage to be applied.once the 4 targets limit is reached, you need to wait for the oldest cast to expire before you can cast it on another target.

EDIT :

- The heal is applied at the moment someone hit the Well of Life target, and is applied to everyone in range. It only depends on the damage the target would suffer if it were not protected by Well of Life. The fact it is protected means that its health is always full while well of life is active, which means that there is a limit to healing, equal to the max life of the target, per hit. But if you hit it again, since the target is still at max health, you can heal again for up to max_target_health.

- Overhealing goes into shields, seemed pretty obvious to me since in my suggestion Blessing (and its shield refilling component) disappear. We need a way to restore shields to support frames that rely more on shield than health. No native overshields though. That should be the work of the augment (as you suggested, switching well of life and vampire energy current augments).

 

 

2) Energy vampire :

here again, the objective is to increase interactivity while keeping it effective.

2 possibilities :

a) it receives the same treatment as well of life, minus the AoE effect. if you want energy, you hurt the target.

or b) it is cast on a target, consuming its life to reduce energy consumption of players in range, allowing for better than 75% efficiency.

efficiency boost would be something like 30%/40%/50%/60% not affected by power strength, multiplicative with your warframe efficiency. that means that at best (with max warframe efficiency and max rank energy vampire), you could reach 90% final efficiency (energy consumption = (100% -75%)*(100%-60%) = 25%*40% = 10%). with only 35% efficiency (max fleeting plus max streamline plus max blinnd rage for instance), you could reach 74% final efficiency.

Energy Vampire damages the target as follow : finisher damage equal to 100%_target_life / duration_in_second per second. at the end of the duration, the target is dead. cannot be cast on boss/mini boss (including juggernaut, bursa, sentient, stalker, grustag, zanuka hunters, etc).

EDIT : Energy Vampire stores damage dealt to the target and apply it at the end of duration or when the ability is dispelled by recast (like well of life suggestion). here it could be cast on bosses/minibosses, but wouldn't be able to stun them.

12 hours ago, Azamagon said:

Thinking of WoL and EV's augments, they could almost be swapped:

WoL aug could allow overhealing of your shields turning into overshields.
EV aug could make it so that kililng a target while it is affected by EV has a chance (possibly 100%?) to spawn an ENERGY orb. This gives you a way to restore energy with the ability again, but now it requires allies to run and pick up the orb, rather than just mindlessly receive energy from far away, so they can't just huddle inside Frost's Globe safely, or whatever.

really good idea, especially with version B of my energy vampire suggestion.

 

 

3) Link :

not much change here in the principle : it still redirects a portion of the damage towards nearby enemies. the protection is also extended to allies in range though.

- link also opens a channel on allies in range*, affected allies redirect 75% (standard link reduction) of the damage they take to trinity, who redirect all of that damage to the 3 enemies affected by link. channel toward allies and channel towards enemies should have different colours, so we can easily identify them.

- *allies affected : 3 possibilities

a) 1/2/2/3 allies affected (same as enemies),

or b) 3/5/5/7 to account for sentinels/kubrows.

or c) simply all allies in range, regardless of ability level.

that would limit the damage reduction potential (99% is a bit much), while keeping it useful. i say 75% reduction cause it's the current value, but that could be tweaked if necessary (so that she can still bring a competitive protection, but not a map-wide quasi-immunity).

EDIT : considering other damage reduction abilities (such as shatter shield and eclipse) can go up to 95% reduction, link could give like 30%/40%/50%/60% damage reduction at rank 0/1/2/3, boosted by power strength up to 95% max.

 

4) Blessing :

team protection and heal have been reintegrated in other abilities, which means that this slot can be freed for something else entirely. i don't have a particular idea at the moment, so it still needs to be designed : soft crowd control, damage buff, other utilities, state changing ability (aka equinox), possibilities are vast.

Edited March 28, 2016 by blaes

[Azamagon]

44 minutes ago, blaes said:

so, rework proposal for trinity :

the point would be to avoid redundant powers / to separate the different functions on different powers, and making it all around a little more balanced.

keep in mind that all her powers need to be reworked simultaneously for it to be viable.

 

1) Well of Life :

becomes the sole healing ability from trinity. no more redundancy between well of life and blessing. it becomes a cheap, effective heal, that requires interaction.

the skill functions the same in principle (heal based on damage done to the target), but with several tweaks to make it viable:

- when someone hit the target, the heal is applied on AoE. every ally in range is healed. the one needing a heal doesnt need to expose himself.

- target is invincible : all damage is stored, and applied when the ability ends.  no more target getting instantly killed, before someone can get in range, and needing immediate recasting.

- better target designation : visual flash similar to focus boosters when ability is cast, with a marker when the target isn't in direct line of sight. when in line of sight, the target glows with a powerful aura (visible through enemies if applicable). the target is also suspended higher in the air (ideally, the feet of the target should be roughly level with the head of other units). easy to spot, easy to hit.

finally, either :

a) recasting well of life prematurely detags the current target, applies stored damage and allows next cast to tag a new target

or b) 4 targets can be marked with well of life at any time (one target per cast). duration cannot be ended prematurely, you need to wait for the natural expiration of the ability for the damage to be applied.once the 4 targets limit is reached, you need to wait for the oldest cast to expire before you can cast it on another target.

 

2) Energy vampire :

here again, the objective is to increase interactivity while keeping it effective.

2 possibilities :

a) it receives the same treatment as well of life, minus the AoE effect. if you want energy, you hurt the target.

or b) it is cast on a target, consuming its life to reduce energy consumption of players in range, allowing for better than 75% efficiency.

efficiency boost would be something like 30%/40%/50%/60% not affected by power strength, multiplicative with your warframe efficiency. that means that at best (with max warframe efficiency and max rank energy vampire), you could reach 90% final efficiency (energy consumption = (100% -75%)*(100%-60%) = 25%*40% = 10%). with only 35% efficiency (max fleeting plus max streamline plus max blinnd rage for instance), you could reach 74% final efficiency.

Energy Vampire damages the target as follow : finisher damage equal to 100%_target_life / duration_in_second per second.

cannot be cast on boss/mini boss (including juggernaut, bursa, sentient, stalker, grustag, zanuka hunters, etc).

 

3) Link :

not much change here in the principle : it still redirects a portion of the damage towards nearby enemies. the protection is also extended to allies in range though.

- link also opens a channel on allies in range*, affected allies redirect 75% (standard link reduction) of the damage they take to trinity, who redirect all of that damage to the 3 enemies affected by link. channel toward allies and channel towards enemies should have different colours, so we can easily identify them.

- *allies affected : 3 possibilities

a) 1/2/2/3 allies affected (same as enemies),

or b) 3/5/5/7 to account for sentinels/kubrows.

or c) simply all allies in range, regardless of ability level.

that would limit the damage reduction potential (99% is a bit much), while keeping it useful. i say 75% reduction cause it's the current value, but that could be tweaked if necessary (so that she can still bring a competitive protection, but not a map-wide quasi-immunity).

 

4) Blessing :

team protection and heal have been reintegrated in other abilities, which means that this slot can be freed for something else entirely. i don't have a particular idea at the moment, so it still needs to be designed : soft crowd control, damage buff, other utilities, state changing ability (aka equinox), possibilities are vast.

1) Well of Life

Your Well of Life idea, with restriction A (recasting well of life prematurely detags the current target, applies stored damage and allows next cast to tag a new target), sounds like a very solid rework! Add to it:

* There should be no limit to how much healing you can get out of the WoL target (unlike now). After all, when the duration ends the target will (most likely) be instantly killed by then (especially considering all the potential overkill), so there is still a limit to how much healing you can get out it by natural means.
* Overhealing goes into shields, possibly also overshields?
* The WoL-target also emits an aura, which causes you and your allies to suffer less damage taken, but not by absurd amounts (max 50%?). It could even function by having a base amount of damagereduction, which then could be boosted by attacking the target (with cap on the damagereduction of course). WoL requires effort to utilize, so it should thus be heavily rewarding as well!

I really like this version of WoL, it could certainly work!

2) Energy Vampire

Your version B, making Energy Vampire grant allies multiplicative energy efficiency, which goes past the efficiency cap, actually sounds like a decent way to make it do its function (help with casting) without being so insanely OP (due to not granting unlimited energy).

Version A is how it used to work though, and it was considered rather bad, for obvious reasons.

Thinking of WoL and EV's augments, they could almost be swapped:
WoL aug could allow overhealing of your shields turning into overshields.
EV aug could make it so that kililng a target while it is affected by EV has a chance (possibly 100%?) to spawn an ENERGY orb. This gives you a way to restore energy with the ability again, but now it requires allies to run and pick up the orb, rather than just mindlessly receive energy from far away, so they can't just huddle inside Frost's Globe safely, or whatever.

3) Link

Redirecting damage from allies, to Trinity, then to her linked enemies sounds like a good idea... for an augment. I think Link is fine as is, really.

4) Blessing

I have a rather simple idea for it. What if it remained as an unlimited range ability, but was an inefficient, but still partywide heal, so it turns more into a PANICBUTTON? Say, if it healed a couple of hundred health and shields, and gave some not-very-long-lasting tank-inducing buff to the team? Maybe a teamwide "Iron Skin" kind of barrier, so it helps those that are actually in need of helping (rather than being abusable for longlasting 99% damage reduction like now). Say something like this:

Within an unlimited range, it restores 50/100/150/200 health and shields to all allies and also grants them a Blessing Barrier on them, which works similarly to Rhino's Iron Skin, but the invulnerability part only lasts 2 seconds (unmodifiable by duration?) and has a very low base health, say, just 25/50/75/100 health AND the Barrier also has a limitted duration on all affected allies. Say, 8 seconds at base? (This should be modifiable with duration)

To reward people for sticking around: Allies within 50 meters range (affected by power range) have 50% more health and shields restored, and the base health of the Blessing Barrier is increased by 100%.

Blessing is still useable as a panicbutton, is still decent for SOME healing, but is not nearly as abuseable, and WoL is FAR more -efficient- at healing and general damagereduction. This way, both skills can be used in tandem, rather than one purely obsoleting the other: Blessing grants a brief, but quickly applied and reliable safetynet, while WoL brings a more efficient and powerful healing and damagereduction, but which requires more effort from both Trin and other players.

*shrugs*

[--Q--uaint]

On 3/26/2016 at 1:36 AM, taiiat said:

they will, the minimum duration to Smite an Enemy goes up to 3 1/8 seconds with those Durations. up from 1.5 seconds.

Energy would already be metered, so it’s just to make Smiting less efficient at Killing, without removing it because it’s neat synergy and a strategy i approve of employing for taking out the odd trouble Enemy. just not mowing down waves with it.

besides, i didn’t say anything about shooting the Target and Killing it not acting exactly as it does now.
and making Energy Vampire only scale positively creates the opposite problem. now we're back to 100% of Trinities using 3 Duration Mods to get as much Duration as possible. we had enough of that when Blessing turned off the game. it’s totally okay for Players to specialize their Abilities, as long as they aren’t wrecking the Warframe (or the game).

 

if we want to focus on people running Macro’s - which i'm not really at all - Energy from Vampre being metered already means Trinity is gone out of that hypothetical Mission. it'll get replaced with Pizzas and Focus though. but, suddenly what was free does not cost a lot and is a negative Resource trend… yay?

the primary goal shouldn’t be to spite some Players, even if it’s obvious they shouldn’t be doing something. improving Gameplay and adding cool things should be the primary focus, with spiting abusive stuff as bonus points.

Wow, unintended wall of text incoming. Sorry lol.

Sorry I missed your post before. I dunno why.
Making the Pinch take longer is fine, IMO.
The problem with letting EV work as it currently does with the target being killed makes the change moot from the “Draco” point of view. The point is to kill as many enemies as possible in as short a time as possible. The fact that the EV target is one of those enemies and will give the full energy when it dies is gravy. The fact that the enemy would take longer to give them the energy they want if it didn’t die? Totally irrelevant.

I don’t believe we'd be back to 100% of Trinities using all 3 duration mods if EV scales positively with duration. Continuity is gravy, sure. Constitution is expensive mod energy-wise, with a lower benefit to duration than Continuity. These points make it more of a min-maxers' thing, especially since there’s a lot of other useful mods that could take that slot. Narrow Minded? Don’t make me laugh. Narrow Minded reduces range. Range is the primary concern of most EV builds, generally more so in meta groups. If that change was made, I might consider an “uber-EV” build that maximizes energy gain… but my primary EV build wouldn’t touch Narrow Minded with a 10-foot pole.

As a sidenote, I feel like Continuity (and other positive power stat mods) should probably always be a positive mod for any Warframe, since it’s a trap for newer players if it’s not. I think it is interesting to have a power stat that’s useful minimized or maximized, but the way the mods are set up seems to go against that notion. DE seems to be going both ways. They add interesting uses for negative stats in some cases, but also mitigate the issues with having high stats in other cases.
I feel like every power that is maximized directly by negative stats should have a just-as-compelling build using positive stats… Molecular Prime and power strength is a fantastic example here. EV and duration is basically the opposite.

I didn’t see you saying that the energy from EV would be metered anywhere. Would you mind expanding on that?

I agree with your points on the goal of this thread, but Arch clearly wants energy made more scarce to discourage the Draco-style AFK meta… and EV is the elephant in the middle of almost any discussion about energy mechanics/economy in WF.

13 hours ago, Azamagon said:

*shrugs*

I… I like this. At least, to an extent.

WoL now is the the primary heal skill, providing substantial healing/DR and promoting staying together with its limited range. I suggest that you should be able to put the WoL on an ally or yourself, at least as an augment, to better support moving around. Perhaps then it would grant the target AoE-healing lifesteal and also provide the maximum DR with no ramp-up time? Another point in its favor is that you could easily argue that the healing/DR should apply to any ally in range… including objectives. That would make Trinity an interesting alternative to Frost for defense.
I like the idea of DR that ramps up with damage taken… I'm thinking the formula should be min(<power strength>/(<power strength>+10%),(<power strength>*<damage stored>/<enemy max HP>)). This makes a higher power strength valuable since it makes the DR happen from less damage and buffs the cap on it. By my reckoning, it gives a little over 95% DR with maxed power strength.

Your version of EV is pretty bad, IMO. Giving bonus efficiency is great as a team-buff, but falls flat when you think about solo play. I think it would be fair to change it thusly:
EV'd target is CC'd for the full duration, and is dealt all damage taken at the end of the duration. The casting cost (or perhaps the casting cost modified by strength instead of efficiency) is returned to Trinity at the end of the duration. EV would then grant multiplicative energy efficiency using the same formula I noted above for WoL’s DR - again, granting ~95% with maxed strength and damage.
Note also that these two reworked abilities would still have a really cool combined effect. Sure, the Pinch would be gone. However, the damage dealt during the duration of each ability is applied at the end of the duration. Since the abilities are cast separately, you can keep them from ever ending at the same time… and the end of each ability’s duration would re-maximize the other ability’s effects (in addition to the occasional huge healing pulse).
EDIT: EV can be recast to maintain its effects. The recast does not trigger the original casting energy return, and does not change the amount returned if/when EV actually ends. It may or may not benefit from the original EV’s efficiency buff, depending on how easy it should be to maintain; another Trin’s EV should affect the cost, though.
The original target goes scott-free, but the duration on EV is refreshed and stored damage is maintained. The recast can be placed on allies; allies targeted by EV are not affected by it’s on-target effects, but the efficiency bonus AoE now travels with that ally.

Agreed, Link is fine as-is. I'd like to see it scale with Strength somehow, but I suppose the augment does that well enough lol…

I think it'd be fair for the Blessing Barrier to be the only effect of the ability… but the Blessing Barrier heals for its full value when it drops. If the invulnerable period is 2–3 seconds at base, I think it’s very fair to allow it to scale with duration. Giving it the same time as Rhino’s or Nezha’s would be good if it didn’t scale with duration. Remember, this is a #4. Blessing should also be recastable after the invincibility duration expires. That will provide an instant heal (by dispelling the previous Barrier) and refresh the invincibility. Combining EV, WoL, and Blessing spam could work for god-mode-ness… but would need an external source of energy since Rage doesn’t help you if you have DR on.

15 hours ago, Archwizard said:

Made a reddit thread to discuss Trinity further.

So far I seem to be in a war with people who think there are “bigger cases of power creep” than her, to which they act like the statement is self-explanatory.

You should take a look at RedStarRocket91's suggestion on the reddit page, if you haven’t already. I like some of the basic ideas, but WoL and EV aren’t actually beneficial to Trinity herself

Edited March 28, 2016 by ChronoEclipse
I can't words ;-;

[blaes]

12 hours ago, Azamagon said:

1) Well of Life

Your Well of Life idea, with restriction A (recasting well of life prematurely detags the current target, applies stored damage and allows next cast to tag a new target), sounds like a very solid rework! Add to it:

* There should be no limit to how much healing you can get out of the WoL target (unlike now). After all, when the duration ends the target will (most likely) be instantly killed by then (especially considering all the potential overkill), so there is still a limit to how much healing you can get out it by natural means.
* Overhealing goes into shields, possibly also overshields?
* The WoL-target also emits an aura, which causes you and your allies to suffer less damage taken, but not by absurd amounts (max 50%?). It could even function by having a base amount of damagereduction, which then could be boosted by attacking the target (with cap on the damagereduction of course). WoL requires effort to utilize, so it should thus be heavily rewarding as well!

I really like this version of WoL, it could certainly work!

- The heal is applied at the moment someone hit the Well of Life target, and is applied to everyone in range. It only depends on the damage the target would suffer if it were not protected by Well of Life. The fact it is protected means that its health is always full while well of life is active, which means that there is a limit to healing, equal to the max life of the target, per hit. But if you hit it again, since the target is still at max health, you can heal again for up to max_target_health.

- Overhealing goes into shields, seemed pretty obvious to me since in my suggestion Blessing (and its shield refilling component) disappear. We need a way to restore shields to support frames that rely more on shield than health. No native overshields though. That should be the work of the augment (as you suggested, switching well of life and vampire energy current augments).

- I don't like the idea of granting well of life a damage resistance, as the point of my rework is to separate the roles in different abilities, to avoid having one ability overshadowing the others.

 

12 hours ago, Azamagon said:

2) Energy Vampire

[...]

Version A is how it used to work though, and it was considered rather bad, for obvious reasons.

Thinking of WoL and EV's augments, they could almost be swapped:
WoL aug could allow overhealing of your shields turning into overshields.
EV aug could make it so that kililng a target while it is affected by EV has a chance (possibly 100%?) to spawn an ENERGY orb. This gives you a way to restore energy with the ability again, but now it requires allies to run and pick up the orb, rather than just mindlessly receive energy from far away, so they can't just huddle inside Frost's Globe safely, or whatever.

Version A is effectively how it used to work, with a few tweaks (the same as those proposed for Well of Life) that correct the problems it had (better target designation, and target cant be one shot and will stay available for full duration so everyone can get energy back).

But going with version B (energy efficiency) and switching WoL and EV's augments is a really good idea. I'll add that to my post if you don't mind.

 

12 hours ago, Azamagon said:

3) Link

Redirecting damage from allies, to Trinity, then to her linked enemies sounds like a good idea... for an augment. I think Link is fine as is, really.

Link is only fine as it currently is if you have another source of damage reduction for the team. But then we get back to redundant abilities (two different abilities with damage reduction) and stuff, which is what I'm trying to avoid in this rework proposal. also, Link's current augment is already pretty good, I'd like for it to stay the same.

EDIT : considering other damage reduction abilities (such as shatter shield and eclipse) can go up to 95% reduction, link could give like 30%/40%/50%/60% damage reduction at rank 0/1/2/3, boosted by power strength up to 95% max.

 

updated my previous post with precisions / suggestions (notably augment switch)

Edited March 28, 2016 by blaes

[--Q--uaint]

10 minutes ago, blaes said:

I don’t like the idea of granting well of life a damage resistance, as the point of my rework is to separate the roles in different abilities, to avoid having one ability overshadowing the others.

The thing is, the role is almost entirely different.

WoL becomes Trin’s bread-and-butter healing as well as squad support with DR. It’s localized, to encourage teamplay.

Link is personal survivability. Did someone wander outside of WoL’s radius and get rekt and your other teammates are just as squishy? Leave the WoL where it is, pop Link, and rez his sorry excuse for a warframe. Do you need life support? Leave the WoL to support your squad, and git 'er done.
Again, I'd like to see Link scale with Strength in some way, but it’s not really needed.

Blessing is then an emergency support skill. It provides CC immunity, full invulnerability for a very short duration, and a little extra protection for a little while after. The most important thing here is that all of this happens nigh-instantly without regard to range.

WoL keeps the squad alive. Link keeps Trin alive (especially relevant since WoL is limited in range and must be recast every so often), and Blessing is a stopgap to keep you from having to rez someone sooner rather than later.

Blessing might seem a little lackluster here, but it isn’t made irrelevant by anything else and also doesn’t just trivialize everything.

[tnccs215]

4 minutes ago, ChronoEclipse said:

The thing is, the role is almost entirely different.

WoL becomes Trin’s bread-and-butter healing as well as squad support with DR. It’s localized, to encourage teamplay.

Link is personal survivability. Did someone wander outside of WoL’s radius and get rekt and your other teammates are just as squishy? Leave the WoL where it is, pop Link, and rez his sorry excuse for a warframe. Do you need life support? Leave the WoL to support your squad, and git 'er done.
Again, I'd like to see Link scale with Strength in some way, but it’s not really needed.

Blessing is then an emergency support skill. It provides CC immunity, full invulnerability for a very short duration, and a little extra protection for a little while after. The most important thing here is that all of this happens nigh-instantly without regard to range.

WoL keeps the squad alive. Link keeps Trin alive (especially relevant since WoL is limited in range and must be recast every so often), and Blessing is a stopgap to keep you from having to rez someone sooner rather than later.

Blessing might seem a little lackluster here, but it isn’t made irrelevant by anything else and also doesn’t just trivialize everything.

I honestly think Blessing needs to be completely remade. Well of life basiclly convers it, and does so much more interstingly. I dont dislike Blessing being an OH SH!T heal, but It must be accompanied by a good balancing of EV -- otherwise, it will be just a spam fest.

I dont know. I think it is simply outdated. Scarab Swarm is more not only more balanced than it it is much more interesting.

However, I honestly go with blaes, and I think Link could do the team resistance (s)he proposes, instead of making WoL do all the work: in the end, it is still a 1. Remove the maximum possible heal, and allow several WoL'd enemies. The rest I've already proposed before (yes blaes, you wont take full credit for all the ideas :P )

[--Q--uaint]

9 minutes ago, tnccs215 said:

I dont dislike Blessing being an OH SH!T heal, but It must be accompanied by a good balancing of EV -- otherwise, it will be just a spam fest.

Does this seem like a good rework?

5 hours ago, ChronoEclipse said:

Giving bonus efficiency is great as a team-buff, but falls flat when you think about solo play. I think it would be fair to change [EV] thusly:
EV'd target is CC'd for the full duration, and deals is dealt all damage taken at the end of the duration. The casting cost (or perhaps the casting cost modified by strength instead of efficiency) is returned to Trinity at the end of the duration. EV would then grant multiplicative energy efficiency using the same formula I noted above for WoL’s DR - again, granting ~95% with maxed strength and damage.
Note also that these two reworked abilities would still have a really cool combined effect. Sure, the Pinch would be gone. However, the damage dealt during the duration of each ability is applied at the end of the duration. Since the abilities are cast separately, you can keep them from ever ending at the same time… and the end of each ability’s duration would re-maximize the other ability’s effects (in addition to the occasional huge healing pulse).
EDIT: EV can be recast to maintain its effects. The recast does not trigger the original casting energy return, and does not change the amount returned if/when EV actually ends. It may or may not benefit from the original EV’s efficiency buff, depending on how easy it should be to maintain; another Trin’s EV should affect the cost, though.
The original target goes scott-free, but the duration on EV is refreshed and stored damage is maintained. The recast can be placed on allies; allies targeted by EV are not affected by it’s on-target effects, but the efficiency bonus AoE now travels with that ally.

 

[Azamagon]

 

25 minutes ago, blaes said:

1) The heal is applied at the moment someone hit the Well of Life target, and is applied to everyone in range. It only depends on the damage the target would suffer if it were not protected by Well of Life. The fact it is protected means that its health is always full while well of life is active, which means that there is a limit to healing, equal to the max life of the target, per hit. But if you hit it again, since the target is still at max health, you can heal again for up to max_target_health.

2) Overhealing goes into shields, seemed pretty obvious to me since in my suggestion Blessing (and its shield refilling component) disappear. We need a way to restore shields to support frames that rely more on shield than health. No native overshields though. That should be the work of the augment (as you suggested, switching well of life and vampire energy current augments).

3) I don't like the idea of granting well of life a damage resistance, as the point of my rework is to separate the roles in different abilities, to avoid having one ability overshadowing the others.

 

4) Version A is effectively how it used to work, with a few tweaks (the same as those proposed for Well of Life) that correct the problems it had (better target designation, and target cant be one shot and will stay available for full duration so everyone can get energy back).

But going with version B (energy efficiency) and switching WoL and EV's augments is a really good idea. I'll add that to my post if you don't mind.

 

5) Link is only fine as it currently is if you have another source of damage reduction for the team. But then we get back to redundant abilities (two different abilities with damage reduction) and stuff, which is what I'm trying to avoid in this rework proposal. also, Link's current augment is already pretty good, I'd like for it to stay the same.

EDIT : considering other damage reduction abilities (such as shatter shield and eclipse) can go up to 95% reduction, link could give like 30%/40%/50%/60% damage reduction at rank 0/1/2/3, boosted by power strength up to 95% max.

 

updated my previous post with precisions / suggestions (notably augment switch)

1) Oh yeah, I understand your version just fine :). What I meant is that, currently, you can only get about 400 health from a WoL target, then no matter how much you continue shoot it, you won't get any health. That stupid limit needs to go. That's all I meant ^^

2) Alright :)

3) Why not? Blessing would be snap immunity (just a couple of seconds) along with snap healing (just a few hundred health+shields), while WoL gives sustained DR and sustained healing, but at the cost of needing to shoot a specific target. They fulfill very different roles. Having no DR on WoL and having no healing on Blessing reduces their potential roles and limits them too much: WoL would ONLY be for sustained healing (dangerous due to needing to shoot a target, the DR would help you to actually be able to heal up) and Blessing would ONLY be a panicbutton (no healing whatsoever COULD work, but sometimes you can need some snaphealing in panicsituations). I know you wanted Link to then be the ability to give sustained party DR, but that would make her TOO energydemanding, imo. And consider Energy Vampire's potential nerfs, well, she wouldn't be helping people much. I think Link is fine as her selfish tank-button.

4) Version A could still be abuseable though, just keep the target alive and spam spam spam (since abilities will sustain the damaging casters etc). Too good imo.

By all means, go ahead and add that idea ^_^

5) Well, that's what I gave WoL (sustained) and Blessing (panic version), so Link being selfish (unaugmented) is fine imo. Power Strength could affect the amount of damage reflected? And the damage reflected could be higher at base? Say, instead of reflecting 100% of damage taken, why not 200/250/333/400% of damage taken (and this is then affected by P.Str)?

I don't mean to remove the current augment, after all, DE has said they want to have several augments per ability!

4 hours ago, ChronoEclipse said:

*snip*

I… I like this. At least, to an extent.

WoL now is the the primary heal skill, providing substantial healing/DR and promoting staying together with its limited range. I suggest that you should be able to put the WoL on an ally or yourself, at least as an augment, to better support moving around. Perhaps then it would grant the target AoE-healing lifesteal and also provide the maximum DR with no ramp-up time? Another point in its favor is that you could easily argue that the healing/DR should apply to any ally in range… including objectives. That would make Trinity an interesting alternative to Frost for defense.
I like the idea of DR that ramps up with damage taken… I'm thinking the formula should be min(<power strength>/(<power strength>+10%),(<power strength>*<damage stored>/<enemy max HP>)). This makes a higher power strength valuable since it makes the DR happen from less damage and buffs the cap on it. By my reckoning, it gives a little over 95% DR with maxed power strength.

Your version of EV is pretty bad, IMO. Giving bonus efficiency is great as a team-buff, but falls flat when you think about solo play. I think it would be fair to change it thusly:
EV'd target is CC'd for the full duration, and deals all damage taken at the end of the duration. The casting cost (or perhaps the casting cost modified by strength instead of efficiency) is returned to Trinity at the end of the duration. EV would then grant multiplicative energy efficiency using the same formula I noted above for WoL’s DR - again, granting ~95% with maxed strength and damage.
Note also that these two reworked abilities would still have a really cool combined effect. Sure, the Pinch would be gone. However, the damage dealt during the duration of each ability is applied at the end of the duration. Since the abilities are cast separately, you can keep them from ever ending at the same time… and the end of each ability’s duration would re-maximize the other ability’s effects (in addition to the occasional huge healing pulse).
EDIT: EV can be recast to maintain its effects. The recast does not trigger the original casting energy return, and does not change the amount returned if/when EV actually ends. It may or may not benefit from the original EV’s efficiency buff, depending on how easy it should be to maintain; another Trin’s EV should affect the cost, though.
The original target goes scott-free, but the duration on EV is refreshed and stored damage is maintained. The recast can be placed on allies; allies targeted by EV are not affected by it’s on-target effects, but the efficiency AoE now travels with that ally.

Agreed, Link is fine as-is. I'd like to see it scale with Strength somehow, but I suppose the augment does that well enough lol…

I think it'd be fair for the Blessing Barrier to be the only effect of the ability… but the Blessing Barrier heals for its full value when it drops. If the invulnerable period is 2–3 seconds at base, I think it’s very fair to allow it to scale with duration. Giving it the same time as Rhino’s or Nezha’s would be good if it didn’t scale with duration. Remember, this is a #4. Blessing should also be recastable after the invincibility duration expires. That will provide an instant heal (by dispelling the previous Barrier) and refresh the invincibility. Combining EV, WoL, and Blessing spam could work for god-mode-ness… but would need an external source of energy since Rage doesn’t help you if you have DR on.

You should take a look at RedStarRocket91's suggestion on the reddit page, if you haven’t already. I like some of the basic ideas, but WoL and EV aren’t actually beneficial to Trinity herself

WoL - Yeah, just giving it way more meat, considering the efforts needed, seem like a good idea. I dunno about the ability to cast it on allies. It could work with some balancing I guess *shrugs*

EV - Well, considering the augment I proposed (more or less a swap with WoL, but an energyorb for EV instead), I think it would be fine. Giving just Trinity her EV-cost's energy back could work, cuz I like the idea that she can sustain herself pretty well (and easily), as long as it is not unlimited, like now.

Link - Like I said to blaes, how about scaling its damage reflection with P.str.?

Blessing - Only having the barrier would make it TOO lackluster (at least if barrier invulnerability duration is unmodifiable). Snaphealing is useful and should remain, but full health (or, almost, unmodded), is way too much and is one of the MANY reasons why WoL is ignored for any form of healing. I'd maybe reduce the healing further though (25/50/75/100 at base, per rank) so it is only some absolute panichealing, nothing else.
Modifiable invulnerability time is a no-no. It should be very brief, not something you should rely on for longer times, just something for panichelping. After all, that is how old Blessing worked, and it made the game so insanely easy it's not even funny!

Yes, ofc it should be recastable, like now. But when recasting, the old barrier should be removed prior to applying the new one yes. But then healing with the barrier's health? No, no. Then WoL's healing could easily become redundant again (considering the amount of damage one could tank with the Barrier. Have you never played with Rhino/Nezha? :P)

And Blessing being her #4... yeah so? If we keep with the mentality that the #4 has to be an "uber", we are gonna keep having balancing issues. The #4 should just be treated as ability #4, nothing else. If anything, #4 abilities could potentially be treated as panicbuttons: Good for a pinch, but very inefficient to spam.

Example: Ignoring its augment, ignoring low level enemies and ignoring the fact that its castable midair, why would I ever wanna use Frost's Ice Wave for anything serious, compared to Avalanche? Ice Wave costs half the energy, deals half the damage, but also only casts in a cone, only slows enemies (in contrast to Avalanche's freezing AND slow-cascade effect) and doesn't reduce armor. If Ice Wave Impedance was innate, I might use Ice Wave more seriously (but that'd make his #1, Freeze, even MORE obsolete, and would require more buffs to it). If Ice Wave dealt WAY more damage than Avalanche, and pushed away frozen enemies (that'd give it scaling damage if you can make enemies collide!), I'd definitely considering using it, as it would be useful and rewarding.
All abilities should be useful throughout as much content as possible, no obsoleting please!

[tnccs215]

 

29 minutes ago, ChronoEclipse said:

Does this seem like a good rework?

 

Yes, yes it seems... Well, partially. It seems a good rework for the current paradigm, but I don't know if it wont be "the new meta"if the idea we/you all developed regarding constant energy recharge is applied.

[--Q--uaint]

11 minutes ago, Azamagon said:

Power Strength could affect the amount of damage reflected? And the damage reflected could be higher at base? Say, instead of reflecting 100% of damage taken, why not 200/250/333/400% of damage taken (and this is then affected by P.Str)?

My Abating Link Trinity wants this. Badly. I don’t think this would be OP at all, given the target limit.

13 minutes ago, Azamagon said:

EV - Well, considering the augment I proposed (more or less a swap with WoL, but an energyorb for EV instead), I think it would be fine. Giving just Trinity her EV-cost’s energy back could work, cuz I like the idea that she can sustain herself pretty well (and easily), as long as it is not unlimited, like now.

Given the talk about 'frames having base energy regen, it might be fair to just not have an energy gain mechanic on EV at all since the energy gained during the skill would probably be larger than the cast cost?
This also goes back to Trin having no channeled powers, keeping her free to regen energy all the time.

I'm liking my idea of making WoL give lifesteal and the full DR immediately if cast on allies as an augment. EV’s augment could totally give out shields/overshields for shooting the target.
Another idea I had that would work as an augment for either skill was restoring 1/2/3/4 ammo for every shot spent on it.

19 minutes ago, Azamagon said:

Blessing - Only having the barrier would make it TOO lackluster (at least if barrier invulnerability duration is unmodifiable). Snaphealing is useful and should remain, but full health (or, almost, unmodded), is way too much and is one of the MANY reasons why WoL is ignored for any form of healing. I'd maybe reduce the healing further though (25/50/75/100 at base, per rank) so it is only some absolute panichealing, nothing else.
Modifiable invulnerability time is a no-no. It should be very brief, not something you should rely on for longer times, just something for panichelping. After all, that is how old Blessing worked, and it made the game so insanely easy it’s not even funny!

Yes, ofc it should be recastable, like now. But when recasting, the old barrier should be removed prior to applying the new one yes. But then healing with the barrier’s health? No, no. Then WoL’s healing could easily become redundant again (considering the amount of damage one could tank with the Barrier. Have you never played with Rhino/Nezha? :P)

3 seconds with maxed duration is… 9 seconds. That’s… actually kind of a lot. I see your point. Definitely should be 2–3 seconds unmoddable. I'd say 4–5, but EV combined with whatever would probably make it viable for spam at that point XP

My idea was that the barrier would always heal the target for its remaining value when it ended. I realize that you could tank a lot of damage with the Barrier up _{(In fact, I was one of the people abusing self-damage-Skin when it was a thing. Kulstar FTW)}, but you can only manually recast it if you're Trinity. That means most of the abusability goes out the window. I think it really emphasizes the for-emergency-use aspect of the ability.
In fact, it'd probably be reasonable to consider the last Barrier “nullified” on recast so you don’t get healing from spam. Combined with the downtime from the cast-time, and spamming Blessing becomes a really dumb idea in most circumstances.

Player DPS is always either higher than the enemies' or more than sufficient for their needs with just WoL, and high healing from Blessing Barrier would be more situational than WoL. IMO, barrier-heal-only makes Blessing more distinct from WoL while still leaving each one very relevant.

36 minutes ago, Azamagon said:

And Blessing being her #4… yeah so? If we keep with the mentality that the #4 has to be an “uber”, we are gonna keep having balancing issues. The #4 should just be treated as ability #4, nothing else. If anything, #4 abilities could potentially be treated as panicbuttons: Good for a pinch, but very inefficient to spam.

So it costs 100 energy, to Rhino/Nezha’s 50. Sure, it affects the whole squad regardless of range, but you still have to consider the solo players. I mean, you don’t have to, but it'd be super-mean not to.

I didn’t say anything about it being an “uber.” As you will probably have observed from the above discourse, I definitely was/am treating it as a panicbutton.

37 minutes ago, tnccs215 said:

Yes, yes it seems… Well, partially. It seems a good rework for the current paradigm, but I don’t know if it wont be “the new meta”if the idea we/you all developed regarding constant energy recharge is applied.

I feel like, in the new energy system, it should be capped at something lower - maybe the new efficiency cap. This means you get your energy back just fine for lots of sustain (especially with power strength), but you also can’t give anyone the power to cast their #4 for 5 energy. _{I mean, unless it’s Mirage or something.}

[Azamagon]

Another rethinking of Trinity, is both WoL AND EV requiring a target really a fun design? To me, that makes them feel too samey, and just toying with different resources :/

So here is some mild rethinking:

#1 Well of Life:

Complete revamp. Has a holdcast and a tapcast.
Holdcast = Places the Well of Life on Trinity herself
Tapcast = Places the Well of Life on the environment (like summoning Loki's Decoy). Can be attached to allies.
This Well now grants healing pulses (can restore shields, but not into overshields) and damage resistance in its area (both effects affected by Power Strength, DR has a cap). The Well is untargetable and invulnerable. Has a decent radius (affected by Power Range) and lasts a nice duration (affected by Power Duration). Max 4 wells can be placed at once, new casts beyond the cap replaces the oldest.

Very simple healingspell that requires Trinity's (and partially the team's) attention.

Augment: Pool of Life -> Overhealing your shields grants overshields.

 

#2 Energy Vampire:

Still an enemy-targetted ability. Causes the enemy to become invulnerable (it stores you and your allies damage done to it, and the damage is applied when the ability ends) for as long as it is held up, with a decent max duration to it (max duration affected by Power Duration). Recasting causes the target to be released. The enemy emits a big aura (range affected by Power Range) which causes allies energy efficiency to increase, which goes past the efficiency cap (efficiency affected by Power Strength). When the target dies, Trinity gets back the energycost (her ACTUAL cost, not base. So no energy-cheesing).

Augment: Vampire Leech -> EV-target also becomes "energymarked". This mark lingers for 1/2/3/4 seconds (affected by Power Duration) after released from EV, and if the target dies while marked it will also drop an energyorb. Only one target can be marked at a time, a new EV-target instantly removes the mark from an old target.

 

#3 Link:

No changes, except for boosting the damagereflection: Now deals 200/250/333/400% of the damage taken back at all the linked enemies. This multiplier is affected by Power Strength.

Augment: Abating Link -> Also reduces enemy shields (maybe?)

 

#4 Blessing:

Within an unlimited range, all allies gain 25/50/75/100 health and shields (affected by Power Strength), as well as a Blessing Barrier, which has 25/50/75/100 basehealth (affected by Power Strength) and absorbs damage taken (only from enemy sources) for 3 seconds (not affected by Power Duration). If allies were within 50 meters range (modified by Power Range), the health and shields restored, as well as the Barrier's basehealth, is boosted by 50%.

The Barrier lasts up to 8/12/10/15 seconds (modifiable by Power Duration) and can be repaired by Well of Life's healing (but cannot be repaired past more than what its highest health was after the absorbtion-time). Blessing can be recast at any time, but this applies a NEW Barrier to all allies, they do not stack in any way.

Possible addition (if not considered too exploity): Any damageresistance (not just the WoL's aura or Link) is completely ignored during the Barrier's absorbtion-time, allowing its absorbtion to always work to its best extents. AFTER the absorbtiontime, however, damageresistances work to protect the Barrier's health.

 

There you go, very different roles:
* WoL becomes her main, efficient ability for sustained healing and DR
* EV becomes for improved efficiency (and minor energygains if augmented) and singletarget CC
* Link remains for Trinity's own protection, and as her own antiCC
* Blessing becomes a panic button, mainly for protection, but also a tiny bit for healing.

 

[--Q--uaint]

23 minutes ago, Azamagon said:

Holdcast = Places the Well of Life on Trinity herself
Tapcast = Places the Well of Life on the environment (like summoning Loki’s Decoy). Can be attached to allies.

Switch these, please. If I mash #1 'cause I'm getting rekt, I don’t want to plop it down on the other side of the room.

Otherwise, I think it’s a pretty good idea for WoL even though it doesn’t synergize with EV.

23 minutes ago, Azamagon said:

When the target dies, Trinity gets back the energycost (her ACTUAL cost, not base. So no energy-cheesing)

I'm gonna say the energy return needs to scale with power strength in the current scheme of things. And besides, being a perpetual motion machine is Trin’s whole shtick.

If/when the energy changes proposed in this thread happen, I'd be fine with no energy return at all most likely.

23 minutes ago, Azamagon said:

Augment: Vampire Leech

I really don’t like powers that drop orbs. Feels super lackluster lol.
I like my ideas better, but I suppose it’s workable.

23 minutes ago, Azamagon said:

#4 Blessing:

I've already made my arguments in the post before yours lol

…What happens if you get two Blessing Barriers at the same time?

Edit: 

Spoiler

The Nekros reworks are coming out of the woodwork today:

 

 

Edited March 28, 2016 by ChronoEclipse

[Awesomeisfree]

Regarding the Volt suggestions in the main post:

While i like "Supercharge" I felt it would have better served being merged into Speed as a concept. In fact the whole, "drawing power from nearby electronics" sounds like something that would match up perfectly with the graphic and augments of speed. Obviously this would include a moderate nerf to your design but I think it'd make more thematic sense in the end. I feel like having two self buffs, both needing maintenance, would put any character into an awkward playstyle.

In exchange, I propose the following:

1. Shock can be channeled, one handed, while holding the button. Each second channeled increases its damage, bounces, energy cost, and range.

2. Move the shield to #4. The shield, rather than adding flat electric damage to projectiles, instead, channels Shock against targets hit by projectiles that travel through it, to a maximum number of Shocks at any given moment. They would have a reduced damage (say ~50%) and would channel for a base duration affected by Power Duration. Only one shield at a time.

3. New #3 allows Volt to draw energy from nearby electronics, enemies, and corpses, Infamous style. 

This would allow all four of Volt's abilities to scale well, possibly even into the late game. It'd also give Volt a particular talent, hallway siege engine, that he'd excel at besides the somewhat esoteric 'speed runner' role. I'm also pretty certain it'd be cool as f.

[--Q--uaint]

18 minutes ago, Awesomeisfree said:

I feel like having two self buffs, both needing maintenance, would put any character into an awkward playstyle.

I agree, but Supercharge is channeled and Chroma exists.

14 minutes ago, Awesomeisfree said:

Move the shield to #4. The shield, rather than adding flat atomic damage to projectiles, instead, channels Shock against targets hit by projectiles that travel through it, to a maximum number of Shocks at any given moment. They would have a reduced damage (say ~50%) and would channel for a base duration affected by Power Duration. Only one shield at a time.

Why not just give them a % of bonus electric damage that scales with power strength and is guaranteed to proc?

15 minutes ago, Awesomeisfree said:

New #3 allows Volt to draw energy from nearby electronics, enemies, and corpses, Infamous style.

Care to elaborate? I'm not familiar with Infamous.

16 minutes ago, Awesomeisfree said:

It'd also give Volt a particular talent

He already has the electric shield spam niche for defense… *shrug*

“Hallway siege engine” leaves a bad taste in my mouth. _{Something something hallway heroes…}

[Azamagon]

Missed your post before mine, sorry!

1 hour ago, ChronoEclipse said:

1) My Abating Link Trinity wants this. Badly. I don’t think this would be OP at all, given the target limit.

2) Given the talk about 'frames having base energy regen, it might be fair to just not have an energy gain mechanic on EV at all since the energy gained during the skill would probably be larger than the cast cost?
This also goes back to Trin having no channeled powers, keeping her free to regen energy all the time.

3) I'm liking my idea of making WoL give lifesteal and the full DR immediately if cast on allies as an augment. EV’s augment could totally give out shields/overshields for shooting the target.
Another idea I had that would work as an augment for either skill was restoring 1/2/3/4 ammo for every shot spent on it.

4) 3 seconds with maxed duration is… 9 seconds. That’s… actually kind of a lot. I see your point. Definitely should be 2–3 seconds unmoddable. I'd say 4–5, but EV combined with whatever would probably make it viable for spam at that point XP

5) My idea was that the barrier would always heal the target for its remaining value when it ended. I realize that you could tank a lot of damage with the Barrier up _{(In fact, I was one of the people abusing self-damage-Skin when it was a thing. Kulstar FTW)}, but you can only manually recast it if you're Trinity. That means most of the abusability goes out the window. I think it really emphasizes the for-emergency-use aspect of the ability.
In fact, it'd probably be reasonable to consider the last Barrier “nullified” on recast so you don’t get healing from spam. Combined with the downtime from the cast-time, and spamming Blessing becomes a really dumb idea in most circumstances.

Player DPS is always either higher than the enemies' or more than sufficient for their needs with just WoL, and high healing from Blessing Barrier would be more situational than WoL. IMO, barrier-heal-only makes Blessing more distinct from WoL while still leaving each one very relevant.

6) So it costs 100 energy, to Rhino/Nezha’s 50. Sure, it affects the whole squad regardless of range, but you still have to consider the solo players. I mean, you don’t have to, but it'd be super-mean not to.

7) I didn’t say anything about it being an “uber.” As you will probably have observed from the above discourse, I definitely was/am treating it as a panicbutton.

1) Kewl :)

2) Having no energyreturn whatsoever, if all Warframes had innate energyregen, yeah, I'd be TOTALLY in for that. Innate energyregen, along with efficiency being nerfed (change back to the old formula, anyone?) would be so awesome. It would make it tougher to spam for longtime players (better balancing) and it would be easier to newcomers (they need all the help they can get). Couldn't agreed more :)

3) Could work, if we stick with the current WoL mechanics.

4) Yup, hence the no-no ;)

5) I get your point, but it does something I hate: Negative duration (since the barriers lifetime has a limit) would be a beneficial stat, due to being able to heal better. Negative stats being good is a no-no to me. It defeats the purpose of Corrupted mods, having a stronger benefit than a regular mod, but along with a detriment. If the negative part is pointless, or even beneficial, well, just... no. In this case, it would a niche benefit, sure, but it's still a potential benefit, which could obsolete WoL = Me no likey.

6) Well, it does do stuff differently, even for a solo Trin (believe me, I always want to make sure stuff is useful for solo players, which is why I hate augments like Soul Survivor. They are fine if they ALSO have solo benefits). It heals shields and health, unlike those of Rhino/Nezha, and it SEEMS more expensive in a vacuum, but consider Energy Vampire...

7) Cool, just making sure :)

1 hour ago, ChronoEclipse said:

8) Switch these, please. If I mash #1 'cause I'm getting rekt, I don’t want to plop it down on the other side of the room.

9) Otherwise, I think it’s a pretty good idea for WoL even though it doesn’t synergize with EV.

10) I'm gonna say the energy return needs to scale with power strength in the current scheme of things. And besides, being a perpetual motion machine is Trin’s whole shtick.

11) If/when the energy changes proposed in this thread happen, I'd be fine with no energy return at all most likely.

12) I really don’t like powers that drop orbs. Feels super lackluster lol.
I like my ideas better, but I suppose it’s workable.

13) …What happens if you get two Blessing Barriers at the same time?

 

 

8) Well, i was also considering it like this: Tap = Summon it on Trinity. Tap again while it runs = move the well from Trinity to your target location. Could also work I guess? The reason I want the "target location"-placed one available on a tap, is because you can attach it to allies. Having that on holdcast would be very hard to use.

9) The EV+WoL synergy is cool in a way, but I feel that is not necessary, as it is so incredibly niche (and too potent in some cases, like killing Juggernaut by itself? A bit much).

10) Well, I don't like that though. Ez-mode infinite loops is a big part of the reason why I think Trinity needs a revamp. (The other two reasons being WoL's uselessness, and Blessing's absurd power)

11) Agreed.

12) Why? Because you have to actually MOVE? ;)

13) If they are from seperate Trinitys? They could either become seperate stacks somehow (they are timelimitted anyway), or the later cast one just overrides the older one *shrugs*

[taiiat]

9 hours ago, ChronoEclipse said:

The problem with letting EV work as it currently does with the target being killed makes the change moot from the “Draco” point of view.
The fact that the EV target is one of those enemies and will give the full energy when it dies is gravy.

 

I don’t believe we'd be back to 100% of Trinities using all 3 duration mods if EV scales positively with duration.

Mod Stats should be interesting both ways.

 

I didn’t see you saying that the energy from EV would be metered anywhere. Would you mind expanding on that?

again, you people are like, single track minded at just trying to spite a certain Player as much as possible with your intended Game Design. that is how games fail, just as the never ending ladder causes games to fail.
either stop, or admit that the intention is just as bad for the game as the problem you're trying to fix is.

i don't really care if those adjustments don't immediately halt people from being abusive on a certain box in a certain popular Mission. Game Design that focuses around specific situations is a guaranteed recipie for failure. this is not how you fix the problem you're trying to address.
in the other 100% of the game, Killing an Enemy not returning Energy is unacceptable. Energy Vampire works that way for a damn good reason - and it's because people will shoot the big flashy glowing Enemy first. it returning the result on death allows Energy Vampire to actually be used. this absolutely cannot be returned to it's original state or Energy Vampire will be useless in 99% of gameplay, AGAIN.

 

oh, you would. you get more Energy from more Duration AND Link lasts longer AND your free invulnerability lasts longer? they'll grab Primed Continuity, Constitution, a mid ranked Narrow Minded. and then go with Intensify, Power Drift, Stretch, mid/full Overextended, and Cunning Drift. probably Blind Rage too and take advantage of the Energy Pool to not bother with Efficiency.
for infinite Energy gain over a huge area, with no downsides, just all direct upgrades to all Abilities.
unacceptable. everything being free upgrades is not okay.

yes, they should be interersting both +/-. which means having a reason to go both ways.
in actual Gameplay, more Duration is a no brainer because Link is incredibly important for Trinity. Blessing lasting longer as well. you will not be Script Killing Enemies at one every other second, but you can still apply a lot of Damage to the tough Enemies that Players find very difficult to Kill. or, two different flavors of single Target CC that last a long time.
there is a reason for longer Duration, and it's longer CC. if you want more to consider, consider adding new features, not forcing Players to only use the Mods you want to use and punish everyone else that doesn't.

 

in what i reminded when the discussion started up about this again - i said it would be metered. which in what i have in mind, means that Energy Vampire would probably give a total of 25-50 Energy, period. something that makes it always Energy positive for Trinity, but probably can't be modified because... otherwise it can't really be balanced. unfortunately.
but that also goes along with Trinity having a Warframe specific Resource that Energy Vampire generates, acting like a second Energy Bar to allow Trinity to juggle her Abilities in the interesting way that Trinity does now, without needing to generate infinite Energy to do so. (even if i enjoy generating bottomless Energy so that Quick Thinking can always be a safety net for if i get hit when Link can't find any Enemies and/or nobody needs Healing and Blessing isn't running)

[Awesomeisfree]

1 hour ago, ChronoEclipse said:

I agree, but Supercharge is channeled and Chroma exists.

Channeled vs Duration-cast aren't particularly different to me from a player experience. And I'm not sure what point you are trying to make by mentioning Chroma. Chroma has his problems too.

1 hour ago, ChronoEclipse said:

Why not just give them a % of bonus electric damage that scales with power strength and is guaranteed to proc?

Well because Shock, as mentioned in my post, scales over time and chains to multiple targets. Each bullet fired would cause a Shock that would continue to do damage while shooting more bullets (which potentially would also cast Shock). It's kind of like Mirage's Hall of Mirrors. The shield would be channeling five or so Shocks at a time.

1 hour ago, ChronoEclipse said:

Care to elaborate? I'm not familiar with Infamous.

Infamous is an action rpg thingy where you play as a character with electrical powers. He has an energy bar that he charges by sucking electricity out of street lamps, air conditioners, and fallen enemies, and such. Not that I think Volt and the Infamous character should be particularly similar; it's just where the metaphor came from.