[Devstream 25] Old Helmets Losing Stats : De, There Are Better Ways To Do This

[ArsVampyre]

Seriously? We're about to get an indirect PvP mode, and you want to give Veterans even more of an advantage over new players?

 

When a new player asks why their clan can't compete in Badlands, and everyone says, "oh, you don't have stat helmets? lol."

Devs promised the game would never be balanced around PvP.  I'm not in favor of retiring the helmets at all; I'm in favor of, at worst, leaving everything the way it is now, and at best, my suggestion, and to appease EVERYONE, making the stat changes a toggle you can turn on or off at will.

 

But let's not start talking about balancing the frames for PvP, especially when badlands isn't going to be PvP.

[RoboDoge]

Such complaints.

 

Many Rhino.

 

So Vanguard.

 

Very crying.

[Wahooo]

I want to say it again.

 

Frames should have Helmets and Chassis with alt skins that are cosmetic changes only.

 

Systems could have alt stats like the current stat changes on the helmets.

 

All just additional craftable blueprints.

[RedMasa]

Give all helmets including vanilla a mod slot, each helmet comes with thir curent mod, when you get another you can mix and match the helmet mod to the helmet of your choice... case closed.

[letir]

DE choose very strange and twisted way to kick both sides.

 

P.S. Balance is not "nerf Vanguard", but rather "buff Thrak and other crappy helmets".

[GrosslyIncandescent1709]

Give all helmets including vanilla a mod slot, each helmet comes with thir curent mod, when you get another you can mix and match the helmet mod to the helmet of your choice... case closed.

that would be the best course of action and it was suggested countless times before, unfortunatly DE isn't going to do it that way... 

[(PSN)Pengu_Imperialus]

DE choose very strange and twisted way to kick both sides.

 

P.S. Balance is not "nerf Vanguard", but rather "buff Thrak and other crappy helmets".

They implement helmet stats. It doesn't work for them from a design stand point so they get rid of them. However they let you opt to keep what you already got. Yeah it gives some people a an advantage but that number will decrease with time as you have player turnover. Nobody actually gets hurt. Sound like a pretty good balance to me.

[BizarreFetalChimpanzee]

Given further thought, I think it would've been more pratical if stat mods could've been kept through a separate kind of non-cosmetic slot (as opposed to removing them entirely), such as an "emblem" or "gear" that could be equipped by a frame, which would allow players to use whatever helmet they wanted but at the same time allow both new and old players to use some rather useful builds that helmets helped support.

This has been suggested by the playerbase so many times (myself included) that I'm shocked they haven't even considered it. 

[Aishi]

DE is REMOVING options rather than ADDING options. This is backwards game design in a nutshell. 

They can easily let us select our own helm stats, creating a wider variety of mod choices. As if that matters in the scope of balance, because mods are pretty much breaking that already and there's many other things to be fixed compared to these few instances of advantageous helm stats.

To all those saying "all or nothing", no. You can have your cake and eat it to because it's truly that obvious in this situation.

Edited March 21, 2014 by Aishi

[MirageKnight]

Give all helmets including vanilla a mod slot, each helmet comes with thir curent mod, when you get another you can mix and match the helmet mod to the helmet of your choice... case closed.

 

THIS.

[ArsVampyre]

yeah, let the game die, screw diversity... like ember or frost? well it's your problem, better grab rhino cause the frames you like unfortunately are boring and underpowered

First, none of the frames are unviable in any content; you might not be able to solo a T3 survival to 2 hours with your ember, but that doesn't mean you can't use it.  It'll work perfectly fine against almost any content (though Frosts slow speed is annoying as hell, making it less fun to play.  Making other frames as slow won't make Frost more fun to play, just the others less fun to play.  Surely you see that?).  Second, you should be arguing for improvements to the frames you like that are 'weaker' in your eyes, not weakening the items you don't want to play with so they're weaker than your chosen favorites.

 

That's how the game will die, mediocrity, because nerfers can't handle their favorite thing not being the best at everything, so they have to whine to make everything else worse, rather than making the thing they like BETTER.

 

Next up, you'll start talking about 'power creep', as if that's an important thing in a game where you fight the AI and not other players.  Who cares if you're more powerful than the grineer lancer?  YOU'RE SUPPOSED TO BE.  If you want more of a challenge, argue for more challenging mission types and enemies and content, not weakening everything.

 

Take a step back and look at what you're asking for, and ask if it increases player options or decreases them.  If it decreases them, you're actively asking to ruin the game.

[GrosslyIncandescent1709]

First, none of the frames are unviable in any content; you might not be able to solo a T3 survival to 2 hours with your ember, but that doesn't mean you can't use it.  It'll work perfectly fine against almost any content (though Frosts slow speed is annoying as hell, making it less fun to play.  Making other frames as slow won't make Frost more fun to play, just the others less fun to play.  Surely you see that?).

 

I'm talking about making frost faster, giving him the rhino treatment. along with the possibility to have +25% speed -5% powerstrength on EVERY frame, woulnd't hurt

 

 Second, you should be arguing for improvements to the frames you like that are 'weaker' in your eyes, not weakening the items you don't want to play with so they're weaker than your chosen favorites.

 

see the above. making every set of helmet stats available for every frame would solve some issues

 

That's how the game will die, mediocrity, because nerfers can't handle their favorite thing not being the best at everything, so they have to whine to make everything else worse, rather than making the thing they like BETTER.

 

i'm not necessarily a nerfer, more like a balancer. equality of options even if the frames are different... want a fast rhino? there you go, take vanguard. want a fast frost? no problem, allow him to use the vangaurd stats too!

 

Next up, you'll start talking about 'power creep', as if that's an important thing in a game where you fight the AI and not other players.  Who cares if you're more powerful than the grineer lancer?  YOU'RE SUPPOSED TO BE.  If you want more of a challenge, argue for more challenging mission types and enemies and content, not weakening everything.

 

i've more than once stated that numbers are not a proper way to fix the lack of difficulty, we need smarter enemies with more possibilities to fight us. sure a tenno should beat the crap out of a grineer lancer, i agree on that. but the enemies need to pose a threat in groups to keep the game interesting, and to give us a reason why we're so powerful

 

Take a step back and look at what you're asking for, and ask if it increases player options or decreases them.  If it decreases them, you're actively asking to ruin the game.

 

i'm asking for equality between options for frames, and stats tied to helmets which are in turn tied to frames don't offer that. nerfing isn't always good but given the current difficulty it's better than buffing frames even more... but that's just my oppinion here

[(PSN)Pengu_Imperialus]

First, none of the frames are unviable in any content; you might not be able to solo a T3 survival to 2 hours with your ember, but that doesn't mean you can't use it.  It'll work perfectly fine against almost any content (though Frosts slow speed is annoying as hell, making it less fun to play.  Making other frames as slow won't make Frost more fun to play, just the others less fun to play.  Surely you see that?).  Second, you should be arguing for improvements to the frames you like that are 'weaker' in your eyes, not weakening the items you don't want to play with so they're weaker than your chosen favorites.

 

That's how the game will die, mediocrity, because nerfers can't handle their favorite thing not being the best at everything, so they have to whine to make everything else worse, rather than making the thing they like BETTER.

 

Next up, you'll start talking about 'power creep', as if that's an important thing in a game where you fight the AI and not other players.  Who cares if you're more powerful than the grineer lancer?  YOU'RE SUPPOSED TO BE.  If you want more of a challenge, argue for more challenging mission types and enemies and content, not weakening everything.

 

Take a step back and look at what you're asking for, and ask if it increases player options or decreases them.  If it decreases them, you're actively asking to ruin the game.

it really comes down to what you consider fun. If running rough shod over enemies is fun for you then the more power the better. Your never going to argue that something is over powered.

[Typhingblade]

Hopefully they're release alerts for every helmet before they do a stat wipe, cause I own every helmet except 2 being Pendragon Excalibur and Markhour Oberon.

 

I've played for a while and never been able to nab the pendragon alerts, and the markhour hasn't been put up yet.

[.Talia.]

Wow wow, wait a second everyone... Some of you seem confused about DE plans for Helmets...

 

Here is what have been said in the Livestream:

 

- Future helmets will NOT have stats.

- Current helmets with stats will be retired, and re-released without stats.

- If you currently own a helmet with stats, you will get a Blueprint to convert it to statless IF YOU WISH.

- But you can keep your helmet with stats, if you prefer them with stats.

 

Scott's words: "If you own them, congratulations, welcome to beta, you were here early, you got them."

 

GET YOUR STAT HELMETS WHILE YOU CAN.

Edited March 21, 2014 by RexSol

[(PSN)Pengu_Imperialus]

Hopefully they're release alerts for every helmet before they do a stat wipe, cause I own every helmet except 2 being Pendragon Excalibur and Markhour Oberon.

 

I've played for a while and never been able to nab the pendragon alerts, and the markhour hasn't been put up yet.

Does Oberon's helmet even have a stat boost??

[(PSN)fingernageldreck]

Ok.... Should i start buying 999 aura trinity helmets with stats as a example?

When stats get removed and maybe one fine day they become tradeable... Goldmine detected!

[(PSN)Pengu_Imperialus]

*snip*

It's been said multiple times.  If I understand the argument properly at this point.  It's between people who think we need an alternate way to get the same buffs they are eliminating vs. people who think enough is enough vs. people who worry about new comers (post update) complaining about not having access to something that is no longer available (i.e. Excalibur Prime/Founders Pack for PS4).

[TeflonDuck]

They were having a perfectly good Best Devstream ever until they dropped this bomb... this isn't a normal bomb it's a "the old dog farted so hard he scared himself and ran out of the room" level of stink.

 

I assume by stat loss they mean things like no more extra range for certain helms, no more added stamina.. no more added duration in exchange for X.

 

Sometimes people who create things should have a say in how the creation progresses, and sometimes George Lucas should just be pantsed and thrown in a closet.

 

Don't be a George Lucas post 1981.

 

 

[Zerrien]

Scott's words: "If you own them, congratulations, welcome to beta, you were here early, you got them."

 

And no one else sees this as disgusting as I do? Stop with the timed exclusives, paid exclusives, etc. Stop. If they effect gameplay, fix it, remove it. Don't make it exclusive.

[ensignvidiot]

I want to keep stats, and i want to find the legacy helmets with stats. Im also sad that newer frames do not have any stat helmets

 

 

If the drawbacks are too extreme for players, than give me another slot on my frame and label "Core System Adjustment" so i can keep my stats.

Aura, Essense, Squall, Thrak, Hemlocke, and Swindle are all central to the builds i have that use them. And I have few more helmets that im trying to track down for other builds as well.

 

I really dont like this change at all. And i'd wish the vocal minority would can it from time to time

[Illuminatus51]

Once again, I'm going to have to shoot an issue in the face.

 

Let us take a look at the situation rationally and not turn to blind hatred:

 

Yeah!! more cries for nerfs!  (And a great deal of other unsubstantiated nonsense.)

 

The real bad move DE made was to listen to the whine squad in the first place. Things get retired in online games, deal. Only in the warframe forums is it this much of a problem.

 

Those who want their Warframe to look different purchased/got the alert and built helmets based on visual appeal. They put looks first. Those who wanted their frame to play a little different and used their helmet like a corrupted mod like the changeup to gameplay. They put stats first. There are elements of both in most people, but we all lean one way or another.

 

That out of the way:

 

DE's handling of the stats situation is knee-jerk and inane, with a multitude of simpler, less confounding solutions for everyone. The reaction is just as much so, but there's nothing we can do about that, this is the internet. Their solution involves scrapping the entire gameplay mechanic in favour of making them purely cosmetic, but in an attempt to appease old players, they will allow them to keep their old statted helmets.

 

I, personally, like the fact that different helmets allow for me to play my frames differently, and allow me to think outside of the box. I'd love more of these positive/negative bonuses on my frames that inherently affect the way I build. I also hate that there are some really worthless stats on some of the nicest helmets, such as Trinity's Meridian.

 

Others hate the stats, and want them gone completely. They don't want their aesthetic choices to dictate their play style.

 

In the event DE decides we're both right, making it exclusive to older players is not the answer. In that scenario, everyone who is saying that stats should simply be a separate slot that act exactly the same as helmets without the helmet are ABSOLUTELY CORRECT. This is one of those scenarios that makes literally everyone involved happy, because functionally nothing has changed.

 

The only argument that should be had at here at all is if stats should stay or go. If they should all go, then it's an all-or nothing decision. If, however, DE decides to appease those who care about the technical aspects as well, then EVERYONE gets what they want, DE gets another aspect of gameplay to tinker with, and everyone wins. Personally, I stand on the 'keep stats' side of the fence, but ultimately, this is the only discussion this thread should be having. No name calling, no acting like a bunch of &!$$ants, and enough using the word 'entitled'. You sound like Bioware devs when you do that.

 

I'd say 'Illuminatus has spoken' again, but I'm sure this thread is going to continue burning for several hours more.

Edited March 21, 2014 by Illuminatus51

[SilentMobius]

I have my Vanguard helmet, I play Rhino Prime a lot, with that helmet, but I can't help but feel that the Vanguard helm was a bad decision in the first place.

 

If it were me I'd scrap all the stats. It would piss people off (me included) but I think it would be better for the game. I think that letting people keep the stat'd helmets will cause more drama in the long run. I'd recall all the helmets and refund the plat if you paid plat Then re-issue the statless helmets, to those who didn't pay plat. Then I'd reduce the plat price of the helmets.

 

But hey, their call

[Zerrien]

I have my Vanguard helmet, I play Rhino Prime a lot, with that helmet, but I can't help but feel that the Vanguard helm was a bad decision in the first place.

 

If it were me I'd scrap all the stats. It would &!$$ people off (me included) but I think it would be better for the game. I think that letting people keep the stat'd helmets will cause more drama in the long run. I'd recall all the helmets and refund the plat if you paid plat Then re-issue the statless helmets, to those who didn't pay plat. Then I'd reduce the plat price of the helmets.

 

But hey, their call

 

I'd recall all stat helmets, and replace them with the statless versions. Keep the prices the same, remove them from alerts, make them tradable.

 

No reason to refund anyone, as, there is no reason a player should be purchasing a helmet for Stat Bonuses, unless Pay 2 Win exists.

[Gekker]

How about you just don't play with the helmets and stop trying to ruin it for others who want them? Ever considered that option?

Balance == bullS#&$.

I gonna quote myself here to answer your "Balance == bullS#&$" statement:

Balancing is the act of creating a variety of valid options on how to play a game.

Every player has a different playstlye and the only reason we have multiple weapons and warframes is because of that fact. Why do you think mastery rank exists? Well, its not only a means of game experience measurement.

The mastery rank gives us a reason to try out different options that don't appeal to us at first but may be a lot of fun to us as soon as we try it out (different options are different warframe and weapons). On a side note: thats why I think weapon and warframe slots are wrong...

That being said. Balancing is important not only for PvP games. The statement that "everyone is playing on the same side" in a PvE / Co-op game doesn't mean anything. If there is for example only one weapon that is better than anything else in the game players will eventually be forced to use it all the time as the difficulty of the game increases.

Balancing in PvP games is not more important than in PvE games and vise versa. If you think otherwise think about the following.

If a PvP game would have weapons out of balance everyone would use the same, most powerful weapon to stay competetive. But that would be boring. And only those palyers would keep playing the game that happen to like the playstyle of that particular weapon.

Same goes for PvE games.

And why am I not just playing without the stat helmets?

Because I don't have a choice! As long as they are still available its not a choice to make. Its a calculation! Because if I choose to play for example Trinity with the Meridian Helmet helmet I suffer from not having the +25% Power Duration. That sucks since I don't like the look of the Aura Helmet.

When you get to unlock and maximize everything in this game you get to a point where min-maxing your stats is one of the most important aspects. Visuals with stats is something that is bothering in that regard.

I am not even being selfish here. I know that people like the stats. But that has nothing to do with the actual looks of the helmet. Its an independent matter. I am not asking for the stats to go but rather to remove them from the helmet! I want to choose the visuals of my warframe independently. I am asking DE to come up with something else to give us the option to choose stats. And don't see whats wrong with that. I don't see why people are demanding to keep stats ON helmets instead of moving them to something visually independent. To answer your reply. Demanding stats to stay on helmets is not the solution everyone is looking for, ArsVampyre.

Edited March 22, 2014 by Gekker