The Problem Isn't With The Warframes, It's With Their Opponents.

[Reku1]

For any veteran player, or even players that have played this game for more than a month, you've probably seen an annoying amount of discussion surrounding frame balancing. Take nova for example. One of the most strenuous debates in the game is over her M prime ability. Simple reason is it kills stuff efficiently. But why does it do that? Is it because of the double dmg? The Range? The energy Cost? In my opinion it isn't any of those. It's the fact that an enemy gets primed and whats its response? To sit their and keep shooting you like nothing happened. And this isn't a debate over nova, this applies to all frames powers. The enemies can't respond. You'd think after getting their &#! kicked a couple 100x over they'd learn to handle an ability. It's Called evolution, adapt to survive.

 

Lets see if i can further elaborate my point.

 

Players have a choice of 18 frames.

 

Each frame has 4 abilities that go with it.

 

ughh, i hate math. That's 72 different ways a frame can rip apart his opponent.

 

And continuing from their the frames have...(quick wiki search later..) 218 mods, - the 72 abilities....146 addition mods to power them selves and their weapons up.

 

And 6 sentinel's to help them fight.

 

And a choice of.....(another wiki search later..) 140 weapons to kill S#&$ with.

 

 

Now lets take a look at what we fight against.

 

23 Grineer enemies. With 7 bosses.

 

21 Corpus enemies. With 7 bosses.

 

11 Infested enemies. With 2 bosses.

 

They grineer have, what? 4-5 weapons and get an occasional health boost or frost shield? And some Knock-back if you count that as an ability.

 

Corpus have...3-4 guns and knockdown robots?

 

Infested have melee and knock-back..with that rare ancient energy drain.

 

So....no S#&$ the frames seem op? The enemies have nothing to fight back with. Hell we get the mods from the enemies, but they didn't have them equipped before killed them? Lol.

 

So in regards to what needs an overhaul next, i'd say AI and Enemy Design. no point in stealth play if you have nothing to fear of the enemies. No point in parkour if it's not needed to fight or get around the map. Yes i know it's fun, but i fun fighting, not running around.

Edited March 22, 2014 by Reku1

[bejuizb]

The thing about enemies in Warframe is that they come in swarms.

If the swarm was made of strong components, then they would roflstomp the bejesus out of everyone.

 

But yes, to an extent, enemy mechanics and AI needs working on.

[KoshLovesYou]

The experimentation with leaders is a big part of that; testing the waters. Making them to have more customization and unique may lead to more NPC uniqueness as well.

 

The pallet swaps on Earth/Phobos are sort of interesting, but are more of a background setup for that atm.

[Reku1]

The thing about enemies in Warframe is that they come in swarms.

If the swarm was made of strong components, then they would roflstomp the bejesus out of everyone.

 

But yes, to an extent, enemy mechanics and AI needs working on.

But even if the enemies come in swarms, with the CC we have on frames and them having no way to stop us, we still roflstomp them.

[Kartumterek]

Make ALL powers require line of sight to affect targets. Whats the point of enemies taking cover, using suppressive fire, flanking and bounding if it it all gets negated by pressing 4?

[Silvershadow66]

 It's the fact that an enemy gets primed and whats its response? To sit their and keep shooting you like nothing happened.

 

Considering the movement debuff and the damage radius when primed targets explode there is not a lot of choice, carrying on attacking is the best tactic.

[ZephyrPhantom]

So instead of nerfing frames into the ground, we get more diverse and difficult enemies?

 

I like your way of thinking, sir. +1

[Reku1]

Considering the movement debuff and the damage radius when primed targets explode there is not a lot of choice, carrying on attacking is the best tactic.

Or one of the enemies could have an ability that de-primes him and allies in a small radius? Probably less likely to die if they do that.

[DarknightK]

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/126768-on-the-topic-of-enemy-artifical-intelligence-updated-12202013/

 

This is a somewhat-old topic that I made that was intended to rework enemy AI but really ended up as more of an Enemy Behavior 2.0 thing. Take a read if you want. However I basically introduce topics that seem relevant to Warframe, such as Docile/Cautious/Alert behavior, Patrol Patterns, Combat Behavior, Enemy models and gameplay aspects to those models, and Damage reactions.

 

This would make enemies seem a lot more uh, responsive and realistic in terms of behavior. They all have the same monotone responses to our actions. Switching it up may keep players on their toes.

[Bibliothekar]

You'd think after getting this &#! kicked a couple 100x over they'd learn to handle and ability. It's Called evolution, adapt to survive.

Problem is, almost none of the enemies that encounter us survive. So unless they happen to have us on tape (Corpus), they only know that we're deadly, but not, how to counter us.

Regarding cameras: It would be nice to see a Corpus unit that "responds" to broken cameras and is able to repair them. If you walk into the line of sight of a camera, ship security sends a squad with a leader unit after you (in addition to the turrets). If you shoot the camera before it sees you, a sole "Corpus Janitor" equipped e.g. with a Spectra comes to that room, takes a look at it and repairs it (takes a few seconds). If he sees you, he runs away and sounds the alarm.

 

If the swarm was made of strong components, then they would roflstomp the bejesus out of everyone.

They don't need to be stronger, just "smarter" and more responsive to our actions. Maybe not Infested, as they are mostly just zeds, but Grineer and Corpus could use more different tactics. At the moment we can just waltz over them, there is no real challenge. They only get more bullet-spongy with increasing level.

Edited March 22, 2014 by Bibliothekar

[Deidaku]

I want to bash harder heads 

[Reku1]

Problem is, almost none of the enemies that encounter us survive. So unless they happen to have us on tape (Corpus), they only know that we're deadly, but not, how to counter us.

Regarding cameras: It would be nice to see a Corpus unit that "responds" to broken cameras and is able to repair them. If you walk into the line of sight of a camera, ship security sends a squad with a leader unit after you (in addition to the turrets). If you shoot the camera before it sees you, a sole "Corpus Janitor" equipped e.g. with a Spectra comes to that room, takes a look at it and repairs it (takes a few seconds). If he sees you, he runs away and sounds the alarm.

 

All in all, I agree with you. It would be nice, if enemy units were "smarter" and more responsive to our actions. Maybe not Infested, as they are mostly just zeds, but Grineer and Corpus could use more different tactics.

I dunno, i've killed Alad V and Ruk more than a few times, and they always seem to come back for more. Still alive i might add.....guess that means i didnt really kill them.....huh....Anyway, they should know what we can do by now.

[Xeiobe]

I completely agree on this topic , i even thought about making enemies do different tactics and skill so they can be more dynamic and it will also improve on warframe balance cos there will be more viable builds to handle different kind of enemies and stuff like that . 

[OniDax]

More various and difficult enemies? As long as it scales properly and is intended for higher level players. Interception still needs to be fixed.

Edited March 23, 2014 by AntoineFlemming

[Arphila]

Harder enemies you say? Let me just use my trinity with duration blessing build.

[Reku1]

Harder enemies you say? Let me just use my trinity with duration blessing build.

And then an enemy hits you with an ability to cut the duration or prevent you from recasting it for a set amount of time.

[Arphila]

And then an enemy hits you with an ability to cut the duration or prevent you from recasting it for a set amount of time.

Or you could just kill/stun that enemy before it even has a chance to hit you with it's own ability. Unless you give it to almost every single enemy it's not that effective and at the point of giving it to every single enemy that would render the point of having abilities almost pointless.

 

There's to much to discuss about it but it's not really the problem of enemies, some warfarmes are OP which is why people flock to them.

 

Also I'd like to note what's the point of having an enemy with an ability to stop your ability unless it's triggered right when it spawns in because nova could still Mprime an entire room rendering such an enemy pointless.

[Ziegrif]

Keep the swarms but add mini bosses.

That way you have Trash and then you have this one big muthahumper who don't take no guff because he's a big red mutha and shoots Sharknados.

So trash will support the big thumper and no nothing currently can be considered "a big thumper" and the big thumper needs to be immune to every single bloody ability in the game and cancel Iron skin, all cloaks, link, Radial Disarm and Blessing. 

Because he's a big red muthathumper and that's how he rolls.

Edited March 23, 2014 by Ziegrif

[sniperx11]

For any veteran player, or even players that have played this game for more than a month, you've probably seen an annoying amount of discussion surrounding frame balancing. Take nova for example. One of the most strenuous debates in the game is over her M prime ability. Simple reason is it kills stuff efficiently. But why does it do that? Is it because of the double dmg? The Range? The energy Cost? In my opinion it isn't any of those. It's the fact that an enemy gets primed and whats its response? To sit their and keep shooting you like nothing happened. And this isn't a debate over nova, this applies to all frames powers. The enemies can't respond. You'd think after getting their &#! kicked a couple 100x over they'd learn to handle an ability. It's Called evolution, adapt to survive.

 

Lets see if i can further elaborate my point.

 

Players have a choice of 18 frames.

 

Each frame has 4 abilities that go with it.

 

ughh, i hate math. That's 72 different ways a frame can rip apart his opponent.

 

And continuing from their the frames have...(quick wiki search later..) 218 mods, - the 72 abilities....146 addition mods to power them selves and their weapons up.

 

And 6 sentinel's to help them fight.

 

And a choice of.....(another wiki search later..) 140 weapons to kill S#&$ with.

 

 

Now lets take a look at what we fight against.

 

23 Grineer enemies. With 7 bosses.

 

21 Corpus enemies. With 7 bosses.

 

11 Infested enemies. With 2 bosses.

 

They grineer have, what? 4-5 weapons and get an occasional health boost or frost shield? And some Knock-back if you count that as an ability.

 

Corpus have...3-4 guns and knockdown robots?

 

Infested have melee and knock-back..with that rare ancient energy drain.

 

So....no S#&$ the frames seem op? The enemies have nothing to fight back with. Hell we get the mods from the enemies, but they didn't have them equipped before killed them? Lol.

 

So in regards to what needs an overhaul next, i'd say AI and Enemy Design. no point in stealth play if you have nothing to fear of the enemies. No point in parkour if it's not needed to fight or get around the map. Yes i know it's fun, but i fun fighting, not running around.

SOOO TRUE

[SirAuron]

Enemies are always the issue, Every fool wants to nerf Nova, but no one ever wants to balance game around the op warframes.

 

Final Fantasy 13 gives you infinite mana, but is that game easy?

 

There ya go. If they balance the enemies around Op warframes and boost capabilities of underpowered warframes and ignore all the morons that cry nerf enemies, you should have a well balanced game.

 

When you give people Op stuff, you taketh the opness out of it without nerfing the Op stuff. Everyhting can stay as it is now and they could buff the enemy AI and Numbers and perhaps damage if needed as well as tactics and powers and BAM! wELL ROUNDED GAME. bUT IF YOU NERF THE WARFRAMES, THE ENEMIES SHALL never EVOLVE.

 

Two idiot grineer have literally taken cover FACING THE WALL and you are standing their staring at them, you go near them and they don't move, all of a sudden you're saying "What's up doc"? to them and they'll tell you that they are waiting on this dumb tenno to come and get shot, well newsflash, that tenno walked right by them. Elmer fudds, all of them. then you have grinner running in circles like he's  high.

 

So it's the enemies that need an upgrade to take down the likes of nova, NOT a nova nerf and ignore the morons that cry nerf enemies or else you'll give the ones that cry nerf warframes a reason to cry nerf warframes by using the ones that cry nerf enemies as an excuse to nerf warframes. All it takes is to ignore two crynerf groups and you win. nerf frame and enemies are those two groups.

 

Now Dark Souls this *@##$.

[Reku1]

Or you could just kill/stun that enemy before it even has a chance to hit you with it's own ability. Unless you give it to almost every single enemy it's not that effective and at the point of giving it to every single enemy that would render the point of having abilities almost pointless.

 

There's to much to discuss about it but it's not really the problem of enemies, some warfarmes are OP which is why people flock to them.

 

Also I'd like to note what's the point of having an enemy with an ability to stop your ability unless it's triggered right when it spawns in because nova could still Mprime an entire room rendering such an enemy pointless.

You wouldn't need to give it every enemy, just 1 in the group is enough, same way the one ancient knocks you down and you die from the others shooting you. And i'm not saying frames don't still need balancing, of course they do, i'm just saying the enemies needs some method to react with.

[SirAuron]

Enemies are always the issue, Every fool wants to nerf Nova, but no one ever wants to balance game around the op warframes.

 

Final Fantasy 13 gives you infinite mana, but is that game easy?

 

There ya go. If they balance the enemies around Op warframes and boost capabilities of underpowered warframes and ignore all the morons that cry nerf enemies, you should have a well balanced game.

 

When you give people Op stuff, you taketh the opness out of it without nerfing the Op stuff. Everyhting can stay as it is now and they could buff the enemy AI and Numbers and perhaps damage if needed as well as tactics and powers and BAM! wELL ROUNDED GAME. bUT IF YOU NERF THE WARFRAMES, THE ENEMIES SHALL never EVOLVE.

 

Two idiot grineer have literally taken cover FACING THE WALL and you are standing their staring at them, you go near them and they don't move, all of a sudden you're saying "What's up doc"? to them and they'll tell you that they are waiting on this dumb tenno to come and get shot, well newsflash, that tenno walked right by them. Elmer fudds, all of them. then you have grinner running in circles like he's  high.

 

So it's the enemies that need an upgrade to take down the likes of nova, NOT a nova nerf and ignore the morons that cry nerf enemies or else you'll give the ones that cry nerf warframes a reason to cry nerf warframes by using the ones that cry nerf enemies as an excuse to nerf warframes. All it takes is to ignore two crynerf groups and you win. nerf frame and enemies are those two groups.

 

Now Dark Souls this $#*(@.

[seren77]

In reference to bullet sponges, at a certain point in the game Molecular Prime stops 1 shotting as do alot of other warframe abilities. At this point Mprime is used for it's slow and damage increase and nova has to rely on antimatter drop.

 

Stalker and Zanukah can dispel warframe abilities, it's kind of annoying as it affects some frames way more than others but does show DE has put some thought into making the special enemies have ways of dealing with warframe abilities.

 

In other games heavies and bosses usually quickly shrug off or are immune to CC.

 

I think the leaders are a good start.

[ThePresident777]

For any veteran player, or even players that have played this game for more than a month, you've probably seen an annoying amount of discussion surrounding frame balancing. Take nova for example. One of the most strenuous debates in the game is over her M prime ability. Simple reason is it kills stuff efficiently. But why does it do that? Is it because of the double dmg? The Range? The energy Cost? In my opinion it isn't any of those. It's the fact that an enemy gets primed and whats its response? To sit their and keep shooting you like nothing happened. And this isn't a debate over nova, this applies to all frames powers. The enemies can't respond. You'd think after getting their &#! kicked a couple 100x over they'd learn to handle an ability. It's Called evolution, adapt to survive.

 

Lets see if i can further elaborate my point.

 

Players have a choice of 18 frames.

 

Each frame has 4 abilities that go with it.

 

ughh, i hate math. That's 72 different ways a frame can rip apart his opponent.

 

And continuing from their the frames have...(quick wiki search later..) 218 mods, - the 72 abilities....146 addition mods to power them selves and their weapons up.

 

And 6 sentinel's to help them fight.

 

And a choice of.....(another wiki search later..) 140 weapons to kill S#&$ with.

 

 

Now lets take a look at what we fight against.

 

23 Grineer enemies. With 7 bosses.

 

21 Corpus enemies. With 7 bosses.

 

11 Infested enemies. With 2 bosses.

 

They grineer have, what? 4-5 weapons and get an occasional health boost or frost shield? And some Knock-back if you count that as an ability.

 

Corpus have...3-4 guns and knockdown robots?

 

Infested have melee and knock-back..with that rare ancient energy drain.

 

So....no S#&$ the frames seem op? The enemies have nothing to fight back with. Hell we get the mods from the enemies, but they didn't have them equipped before killed them? Lol.

 

So in regards to what needs an overhaul next, i'd say AI and Enemy Design. no point in stealth play if you have nothing to fear of the enemies. No point in parkour if it's not needed to fight or get around the map. Yes i know it's fun, but i fun fighting, not running around.

 

YES!  I've been saying this for a while now.  But, nerfers gonna nerf.  No sense in talking to them.  They want their ton of flesh.

 

The enemy seem rather leaderless.  You'd think that there would be a commander watching the battle over a camera and seeing what the Tenno are doing then calling for appropriate reinforcements.  It should take time for the commander to observe the Tenno squad, then call for the right unit.  Then it should take time for the right unit to arrive.  There souldn't be an expectation that the reinforcements arrive immediately because the enemy have no way of knowing exactly when and where the Tenno will strike.  So, they will need to reposition their better, so rarer, assets.

 

Also, in Tenno squad vs. enemy horde, you have to expect the horde to take massive casualties because they are a horde, not an elite enemy squad.  Elites are always rare and take time to reposition.  But that does not mean that the horde can't be dangerous.  It can still wear you down.

 

There is also the environment.  We ca expect the enemy to have limts against the Tenno or else they would have wiped the Tenno out.  So, you can't have ultra powerful enemies be common.  But, the environment is a different story.  KRYPTONITE!!!!!!  Or, oxium, or peanut butter and jelly, whatever..  I'm sure my implication here is obvious.

 

There are so many conditions that DE could use to spice up gameplay.  They have bene focusing on the Tenno for more than a year now.  They should start taking a look at what can be done with the environments, enemies, and missions.  These things could be used to resolve alot of the complaints that players have about Warframe.

 

And, SANDBOXES = missions, because a lot of players hate each other's play styles and you'll never get consensus from them.  So, you've got to keep them separated.

[OniDax]

As I said on another thread, I want some enemies who will fight like Tenno. Using gun and blade, wallrunning, using abilities. A blocking system that's more like Assassin's Creed, where you can parry with your enemy, or at least a parry system alongside blocking (so an end to only hack and slash), could facilitate this. If you change up the way the enemy fights (yes, requires AI improvements), you can then increase difficulty that will actually require you to rethink the way you play and not to simply craft stronger weapons. Just my 2 cents.