How Vanguard Helmet Ruined Rhino

[kaboomonme]

Aimed at some of the people on this thread : stop using "speed is insignificant" as an excuse hypocrites. If it's insignificant, you wouldn't mind it being removed for the sake of balance right?

Hypocrites.

[Skaleek]

I have been contributing for pages, but I have grown tired of responding to the same argument page after page. You guys need to learn to skim (or completely read) through a thread to get the gist of the arguments presented before presenting your own. Balance is important, regardless of whethe or not the game is PvP or PvE. Happy now? I gave you a nice reply.

 

I still appreciate your feedback, but as i said in this thread, I have a different idea of balance. In my eyes, the game is balanced as long as you can do everything i can.

[ErudiusNacht]

I say this with all due respect:

 

Asking to balance a specific OP item/object/Character IS a nerf request. Simple as that. Thank you for your time.

[kaboomonme]

I say this with all due respect:

 

Asking to balance a specific OP item/object/Character IS a nerf request. Simple as that. Thank you for your time.

 

 

And, an Edit: This is not a freaking bs nerf thread. If you keep calling it that, just leave. I shall say again, this is a plea for balance for the greater good of the game.

Emphasis on BS. Also, balance.

[SquirmyBurrito]

I still appreciate your feedback, but as i said in this thread, I have a different idea of balance. In my eyes, the game is balanced as long as you can do everything i can.

 

That's another problem that this optional stat removal is going to come with. New players won't have access to vanguard+stats, so their Rhino/RhiPri's potential will always be lower than yours.

[TheStag]

I say this with all due respect:

Asking to balance a specific OP item/object/Character IS a nerf request. Simple as that. Thank you for your time.

Your really ruining this thread. Balancing something could be a buff.

For your one sided logic, you don't deserve my time.

Edited March 26, 2014 by TheStag

[sneakatone]

I like the stats but the helmet dosent looks as good as the normal or prime helmet to put it on.

[sanj66]

@ Riasiru You must not play this game if you think speed does not affect much of anything. Go play some public online games for once.

@ObviousLee The Vanguard helmet makes Rhino unbalanced. It makes his main, if only downside a strength. Each frame should have a downside for balance sake.

there are frames with almost no downside and they dont need a helmet for that so why pick on rhino. because he is faster or as fast as your frame? also i paid and i am sure all those that paid for the vanguard helm paid for the stat and not really the look, as said they are retiring the stat based helms but allowing those that have them to keep those or choose to convert it, which is fair, in your notion to nuke all helms and not care, did you ever bother to think about those who spent money on their helms? and not just the vanguard? are you willing to refund every single player that bought a alt helm for the stat? you talk about the speed being game breaking, but treatment like that can also be game breaking most people would say f this company and f this game if they took away and item they paid for and game them rubbish instead, losing player base or even people who decides to instead refund their money etc i believe thats more game breaking than players being jealous about a frame's speed, also speed is not only his down fall, strength based frames do not scale, rhino is a strength based frame, all but 1 of his skills are duration, and if you mod to strength and defense you lose his duration. your strength is a static number and its effects are dependent on the enemies, duration based frames are to be classes as "op" as they can scale to very high levels, as duration is independent of enemies and their level, so dont go around saying his speed was his only drawback. for those who say he is good at everything and that makes him great, yes he is supposed to be a tank, yet support frames can out tank him, sure balance his speed but then make sure he lives up to his role, to be able to be a true tank and not just a mid level tank.

[SquirmyBurrito]

there are frames with almost no downside and they dont need a helmet for that so why pick on rhino. because he is faster or as fast as your frame? also i paid and i am sure all those that paid for the vanguard helm paid for the stat and not really the look, as said they are retiring the stat based helms but allowing those that have them to keep those or choose to convert it, which is fair, in your notion to nuke all helms and not care, did you ever bother to think about those who spent money on their helms? and not just the vanguard? are you willing to refund every single player that bought a alt helm for the stat? you talk about the speed being game breaking, but treatment like that can also be game breaking most people would say f this company and f this game if they took away and item they paid for and game them rubbish instead, losing player base or even people who decides to instead refund their money etc i believe thats more game breaking than players being jealous about a frame's speed, also speed is not only his down fall, strength based frames do not scale, rhino is a strength based frame, all but 1 of his skills are duration, and if you mod to strength and defense you lose his duration. your strength is a static number and its effects are dependent on the enemies, duration based frames are to be classes as "op" as they can scale to very high levels, as duration is independent of enemies and their level, so dont go around saying his speed was his only drawback. for those who say he is good at everything and that makes him great, yes he is supposed to be a tank, yet support frames can out tank him, sure balance his speed but then make sure he lives up to his role, to be able to be a true tank and not just a mid level tank.

 

There are tons of threads about those frames. 

 

DE does not have to refund you. Get that through your head. You didn't spend money on the helmet, you spent platinum.

[sanj66]

There are tons of threads about those frames. 

 

DE does not have to refund you. Get that through your head. You didn't spend money on the helmet, you spent platinum.

its funny you didnt reply to the frame scaling or to the fact that as a tank he is out tanked by other frames, yet you only focus on his speed, and how is plat obtained? from money, the helm was 70 plat or so, you get 50 starter plat which is non tradeable, so where did the other plat appear from? and as i said IF they nuked all helms, which they stated they will not do, as the op wants to be done, and didnt offer players some sort of reimbursement it would be stupidity business wise as whether or not they have to reimburse you, and just a side note it isnt all black and white like you want it to seem, who would want to continue supporting a game that they paid for an item and was given trash instead? i used that point as it would also cause or can cause a real game breaker in that players may not want to support the title or company anymore, quite a few players started the game through the influence of a friend, and that may not happen, you may have players who will quit and even charge back through their bank or paypal. so whats more important issues like that or a few players angry because a helmet on  a non scaling frame gives it some extra speed?like i said make him a true tank (frost as well) and sure modify his base speed etc to fall in line, also not everyone plays rhino with rush.

[letir]

Excalibur isn't weak, he can more efficiently lockdown an entire map than Rhino can. Blindcalibur>Stomping Rhino. 

An who is the real troll here?

Your "Blindcalibur" is weak one-trick-pony. Mprime/Chaos "lockdown an entire map" muuuuuuch better, and owners still have some good abilities. Ex have nothing: S'n'D is weak in mid-game, Radial Javelin slow and useless without Mag.

Your "fine Frost" have damage abilities with bad scaling, almost non-existant control and heavily nerfed Snow Globe. Weak in offence and control, med in defence.

 

They "fine" only in your imagination - entire player base have another opinion about "fine".

 

You ignore facts and evade discussion, but still blabbling about balance? Another "Loki Master Race"?

Edited March 26, 2014 by letir

[kaboomonme]

An who is the real troll here?

Your "Blindcalibur" is weak one-trick-pony. Mprime/Chaos "lockdown an entire map" muuuuuuch better, and owners still have some good abilities. Ex have nothing: S'n'D is weak in mid-game, Radial Javelin slow and useless without Mag.

Your "fine Frost" have damage abilities with bad scaling, almost non-existant control and heavily nerfed Snow Globe. Weak in offecnce and control, med in defence.

 

They "fine" only in your imagination - entire player base have another opinion about "fine".

 

You ignore facts and evade discussion, but still blabbling about balance? Another "Loki Master Race"?

This is why we can't have nice things.

 

its funny you didnt reply to the frame scaling or to the fact that as a tank he is out tanked by other frames, yet you only focus on his speed, and how is plat obtained? from money, the helm was 70 plat or so, you get 50 starter plat which is non tradeable, so where did the other plat appear from? and as i said IF they nuked all helms, which they stated they will not do, as the op wants to be done, and didnt offer players some sort of reimbursement it would be stupidity business wise as whether or not they have to reimburse you, and just a side note it isnt all black and white like you want it to seem, who would want to continue supporting a game that they paid for an item and was given trash instead? i used that point as it would also cause or can cause a real game breaker in that players may not want to support the title or company anymore, quite a few players started the game through the influence of a friend, and that may not happen, you may have players who will quit and even charge back through their bank or paypal. so whats more important issues like that or a few players angry because a helmet on  a non scaling frame gives it some extra speed?like i said make him a true tank (frost as well) and sure modify his base speed etc to fall in line, also not everyone plays rhino with rush.

TL:DR

I spent money on this game, thus I have the right to prevent DE from making changes to anything that affects me that I disagree with, even if it's for balancing the game to improve the experience for other players.

I hate to break it to you, but DE has every right to make these changes. 

Edited March 26, 2014 by kaboomonme

[sanj66]

 

This is why we can't have nice things.

 

TL:DR

I spent money on this game, thus I have the right to prevent DE from making changes to anything that affects me that I disagree with, even if it's for balancing the game to improve the experience for other players.

I hate to break it to you, but DE has every right to make these changes. 

 

i never said they dont, i said it may and would probably be stupidity business wise which may lead to difficulty for the game later on,also it may not be as black and white as that, where did i say they cant? i didnt and you are replying to something you made up by yourself. also you part about to improve the experience of other players but it negatively affects the experience of the rhino player so that point about player experience wont ever be valid as there will always be pro and con players and there is no real "right" or "improvement", that said the most part of people's argument is he is fast as loki, so what does he do op damage as loki? loki's drawback was that he is fragile but invisibility removes his drawbacks and he can be built to be basically permanently invisible removing his main drawbacks at no negative cost, rhino though has to rely on a helmet with a negative stat, no matter how small its impact, and on top of that a speed boost doesnt remove his drawbacks, being he is a non scalable frame while loki, trinity, nyx etc almost if not all duration based frames are scalable due to duration being independent, so the argument that it removes his drawback is also invalid, to talk about rhino charge vs teleport, rhino charge is linear while switch teleport isnt, i.e. loki can cover more ground faster. all in all it comes down to he is as fast or faster than X frame and he shouldnt or i think he shouldnt and that in no way justifies a nerf. also the eula states de owns all materials and you arent allowed to make money off of their material etc, at no point did it explicitly state as in quite a few eulas that they reserve the right to alter content with/without notice as they see fit to, so its not a point agreed to in the terms, as i said its not as black and white as you want to make it seem or think it is, to avoid this many other companies do explicitly state that the y do reserve thr right to modify/alter/remove/implement content with/without prior notice to the user and with no obligation to the user, to avoid such claims, a term as such was not included in de's terms of service and an inference (that is, it is inferred in the ownership can be challenged).

Edited March 26, 2014 by sanj66

[PneumaticHat]

I don't understand this request at all.

 

I like Rhino, I like running fast, and most of all I like keeping up with my team. Vanguard helmet makes him super fun. I like fun. Fun rules.

[MirageKnight]

I don't understand this request at all.

 

I like Rhino, I like running fast, and most of all I like keeping up with my team. Vanguard helmet makes him super fun. I like fun. Fun rules.

 

It's just a shame that Rhino players are all but required to have that helm in order to keep up with everyone and have fun.

 

THAT is the real problem.

 

Solution? Buff his speed to 1, remove stats from his helms (making said helms purely aesthetic as they should be), and done.

[SquirmyBurrito]

its funny you didnt reply to the frame scaling or to the fact that as a tank he is out tanked by other frames, yet you only focus on his speed, and how is plat obtained? from money, the helm was 70 plat or so, you get 50 starter plat which is non tradeable, so where did the other plat appear from? and as i said IF they nuked all helms, which they stated they will not do, as the op wants to be done, and didnt offer players some sort of reimbursement it would be stupidity business wise as whether or not they have to reimburse you, and just a side note it isnt all black and white like you want it to seem, who would want to continue supporting a game that they paid for an item and was given trash instead? i used that point as it would also cause or can cause a real game breaker in that players may not want to support the title or company anymore, quite a few players started the game through the influence of a friend, and that may not happen, you may have players who will quit and even charge back through their bank or paypal. so whats more important issues like that or a few players angry because a helmet on  a non scaling frame gives it some extra speed?like i said make him a true tank (frost as well) and sure modify his base speed etc to fall in line, also not everyone plays rhino with rush.

 

Nothing funny about it. Your wall of text is an eye sore, so I decided to just reply to the first bit I saw. DE doesn't have to refund you. What you think is stupid, I think is intelligent. Platinum is a commodity, not a currency. 

 

An who is the real troll here?

Your "Blindcalibur" is weak one-trick-pony. Mprime/Chaos "lockdown an entire map" muuuuuuch better, and owners still have some good abilities. Ex have nothing: S'n'D is weak in mid-game, Radial Javelin slow and useless without Mag.

Your "fine Frost" have damage abilities with bad scaling, almost non-existant control and heavily nerfed Snow Globe. Weak in offence and control, med in defence.

 

They "fine" only in your imagination - entire player base have another opinion about "fine".

 

You ignore facts and evade discussion, but still blabbling about balance? Another "Loki Master Race"?

 

I do believe the answer to that first question is the same as the answer to "who (out of the two of us) has a name with an e in it?".

 

Blindcalibur isn't weak. That build is actually one of the most powerful and efficient cc builds in this game. I find humor in the fact that you called blindcalibur a one-trick pony, and then went on to mention nova and nyx. Enemies under the effect of chaos will shoot/hit whatever is closest to them. Enemies under the effect of radial blind will not fire their weapons but will occasionally throw grenades, their melee units will also attack the sources of sounds. Mprime doesn't lockdown anything. Once you get past the point where it oneshots crowds all it does is make enemies take forever to get to you while giving you double damage against them. Radial Blind stops them from attacking you (mostly), and provides (according to the wiki) a nice melee damage buff.

 

Slash Dash is a mobility skill, and radial javelin is a damage skill. I said Blindcalibur for a reason. Do you not know what that refers to? It refers to a build in which the focus is primarily on radial blind.

 

Frost is not a damage-type frame. I haven't actually tested his globe after the change but it sounds like it should be pretty good again.

 

I don't think the entire playerbase disagrees with me.

 

How can I ignore facts if you haven't provided any? I don't evade discussion. If I did that I wouldn't be in this thread. Was that Loki thing an attempt at an insult? Because I have not said that phrase during this entire thread.

 

Seriously, are you a troll? Because you're really bad at it.

[letir]

1) I don't think the entire playerbase disagrees with me.

2) How can I ignore facts if you haven't provided any? I don't evade discussion. If I did that I wouldn't be in this thread. Was that Loki thing an attempt at an insult? Because I have not said that phrase during this entire thread.

1) Themes like "Who is trash tier now" it's just illusion?

2) Wow, really?

Again:

"Blindcalibur" is pathetic concept, bcs true controller (Nyx) or controller-dd frame (Nova) outperform him. S'n'D + Jump for mobility? Wow, mobility is matter soooo much on T3 Def!!!!

 

Enemies under Chaos effect shoot each other even then effect is over, and Nyx have true late-game scaling ultimate - Absorb, and Mind Contorl for heavies.

MPrime give 50% of slow, 200% damage amplifier, and still better then RJ in terms of damage. Much better then your "allmighty" Radial blind. Besides, Antimatter Drop is another good damage ability with right scale, and mobility of Worm Hole+base speed cannot be outperformed.

 

 

You sitting on forum too much. Go play Warfram a bit.

Edited March 26, 2014 by letir

[PneumaticHat]

I think everyone would accept stat helmets if they could craft them normally.

 

I only wear Vanguard for its stats. It looks kind of silly, but it represents speed.

[SquirmyBurrito]

1) Themes like "Who is trash tier now" it's just illusion?

2) Wow, really?

Again:

"Blindcalibur" is pathetic concept, bcs true controller (Nyx) or controller-dd frame (Nova) outperform him. S'n'D + Jump for mobility? Wow, mobility is matter soooo much on T3 Def!!!!

 

Enemies under Chaos effect shoot each other even then effect is over, and Nyx have true late-game scaling ultimate - Absorb, and Mind Contorl for heavies.

MPrime give 50% of slow, 200% damage amplifier, and still better then RJ in terms of damage. Much better then your "allmighty" Radial blind. Besides, Antimatter Drop is another good damage ability with right scale, and mobility of Worm Hole+base speed cannot be outperformed.

 

 

You sitting on forum too much. Go play Warfram a bit.

 

1. Every warframe tier thread I have seen has stuck Excalibur in the higher tiers.

2. No, it isn't. Are you trolling right now? There is no way you're really this dense.

 

Radial Blind vs. Chaos:

Radial Blind can be recast anytime after the initial stun ends. Chaos can not be recast until either the power duration ends or all enemies under its affect have been killed.

Both have the same range.

Radial Blind stops all incoming damage that isn't from melee units and/or grenades. Chaos makes enemies attack whatever is closest, this can include you and your teammates.

Radial Blind costs 50 energy and lasts 15 seconds. Chaos costs 75 energy and lasts 25 seconds.

 

-Radial Blind has hard damage mitigation. IMO it is better than Chaos.

 

Radial Blind vs. Molecular Prime:

Both can be freely recast IIRC.

Molecular Prime has more range.

Molecular Prime costs more and has a 60 second duration.

Molecular Prime causes damage. Radial Blind does not.

Molecular Prime has a speed debuff, and buffs damage dealt to affected enemies by 2x. Radial Blind applies a 400% melee damage buff. 

Molecular Prime's damage eventually falls off. Radial Blind doesn't have this problem.

Molecular Prime does not stop enemies from attacking you. Radial Blind does.

 

-Same as above, its damage mitigation combined with the fact that it basically makes enemies helpless gives it the edge as a CC ability, IMO.

 

Stop bringing up Excalibur's other abilities. When I said 'Blindcalibur' I meant it. I didn't say 'Excalibur with a well-rounded build'.

 

Wormhole is out performed by Tailwind.

 

I play the game plenty, maybe you need to think more.

Edited March 26, 2014 by SquirmyBurrito

[kaboomonme]

1) Themes like "Who is trash tier now" it's just illusion?

2) Wow, really?

Again:

"Blindcalibur" is pathetic concept, bcs true controller (Nyx) or controller-dd frame (Nova) outperform him. S'n'D + Jump for mobility? Wow, mobility is matter soooo much on T3 Def!!!!

 

Enemies under Chaos effect shoot each other even then effect is over, and Nyx have true late-game scaling ultimate - Absorb, and Mind Contorl for heavies.

MPrime give 50% of slow, 200% damage amplifier, and still better then RJ in terms of damage. Much better then your "allmighty" Radial blind. Besides, Antimatter Drop is another good damage ability with right scale, and mobility of Worm Hole+base speed cannot be outperformed.

 

 

You sitting on forum too much. Go play Warfram a bit.

That's the whole point though. You're pointing out that Nyx and Nova completely outperform Excalibur. You see the point NOW?

The Warframes were designed to be made to balance each other. The fact that there are frames that completely outclass another just tips the balance already. 

Just for the sake of the topic :

Hey I wonder what frame I should bring to Interception? It's a big map, and Ash has some mobility and good survivability, so I can bring him right?

Well Rhino has a skill that gives him a burst of speed, a health buffer for even better survivability, a team buff, and a CC + damage skill. And with the Vanguard helmet, he has better mobility than Ash as well! Just sell your Ash already!

B-but I like a ninja-themed Warframe! I like how he looks more so I'm going to play him anyways!

Well sure, you're just going to be sacrificing general combat effectiveness and team-play only. Players will critique your frame choice, as you won't be contributing to the team as much.

(Ash is a bad example though, since he is pretty underpowered in his current state, but you see where I'm going with this?)

Edited March 26, 2014 by kaboomonme

[PneumaticHat]

I see a need to boost the abilities of other Frames or make them complement each other. Nerfs lead to nerfs lead to nerfs lead to nerfs.

[kaboomonme]

I see a need to boost the abilities of other Frames or make them complement each other. Nerfs lead to nerfs lead to nerfs lead to nerfs.

I don't agree with blatant buffing either, but making frames complement each other would solve a LOT. I'm surprised they don't already have this in the game, with it being marketed as a Co-op shooter. 

Skill X from Frame X is weak, and Skill Y from Frame Y is mediocre, but if Frame X casts Skill X on top of Skill Y, Z effect is produced. People won't have anything to complain about anymore, since they are reliant on another frame/player for maximum effectiveness.

Warframes as they stand now, just seem to be balanced around personal contribution to the objective, which some frames do blatantly better than others. It's not hard to see why people have different opinions on the matter.

Edited March 26, 2014 by kaboomonme

[SquirmyBurrito]

I don't agree with blatant buffing either, but making frames complement each other would solve a LOT. I'm surprised they don't already have this in the game, with it being marketed as a Co-op shooter. 

Skill X from Frame X is weak, and Skill Y from Frame Y is mediocre, but if Frame X casts Skill X on top of Skill Y, Z effect is produced. People won't have anything to complain about anymore, since they are reliant on another frame/player for maximum effectiveness.

 

The only examples of this I can think of are:

Mag+Excal

Nova+Nyx

Loki+Vauban

and... that's all I can think of right now.

[letir]

1. Every warframe tier thread I have seen has stuck Excalibur in the higher tiers.

2. No, it isn't. Are you trolling right now? There is no way you're really this dense.

 

Radial Blind vs. Chaos:

Radial Blind can be recast anytime after the initial stun ends. Chaos can not be recast until either the power duration ends or all enemies under its affect have been killed.

Both have the same range.

Radial Blind stops all incoming damage that isn't from melee units and/or grenades. Chaos makes enemies attack whatever is closest, this can include you and your teammates.

Radial Blind costs 50 energy and lasts 15 seconds. Chaos costs 75 energy and lasts 25 seconds.

 

-Radial Blind has hard damage mitigation. IMO it is better than Chaos.

 

Radial Blind vs. Molecular Prime:

Both can be freely recast IIRC.

Molecular Prime has more range.

Molecular Prime costs more and has a 60 second duration.

Molecular Prime causes damage. Radial Blind does not.

Molecular Prime has a speed debuff, and buffs damage dealt to affected enemies by 2x. Radial Blind applies a 400% melee damage buff. 

Molecular Prime's damage eventually falls off. Radial Blind doesn't have this problem.

Molecular Prime does not stop enemies from attacking you. Radial Blind does.

 

-Same as above, its damage mitigation combined with the fact that it basically makes enemies helpless gives it the edge as a CC ability, IMO.

 

Stop bringing up Excalibur's other abilities. When I said 'Blindcalibur' I meant it. I didn't say 'Excalibur with a well-rounded build'.

 

Wormhole is out performed by Tailwind.

 

I play the game plenty, maybe you need to think more.

Such post. Wow.

How many hours you play for Ex?

Eneimes under Radial Blind still can attack randomly, you know?

 

 

Chaos can easly combined with Fleeting Expertise and, it will be win-win situation. And enemy horde just devour themselseves, without slight danger.

 

And RB is better then MPrime... in your dreams, maybe? 200% of any damage is much better then 400% of melee damage. Obvious, damage from powers/OP weapons is much better "debuff", bcs melee sucks.

 

That's the whole point though. You're pointing out that Nyx and Nova completely outperform Excalibur. You see the point NOW?

The Warframes were designed to be made to balance each other. The fact that there are frames that completely outclass another just tips the balance already.

Yes, i see point.

Buff lackluster powers of Ex, such as S'n'D, Jump and  RJ to T3 lvl = new good endgame frame.

Nerf Rhino/Nova/any imba frame = stricted choice for T3.

Edited March 26, 2014 by letir

[letir]

I don't agree with blatant buffing either, but making frames complement each other would solve a LOT. I'm surprised they don't already have this in the game, with it being marketed as a Co-op shooter. 

Skill X from Frame X is weak, and Skill Y from Frame Y is mediocre, but if Frame X casts Skill X on top of Skill Y, Z effect is produced. People won't have anything to complain about anymore, since they are reliant on another frame/player for maximum effectiveness.

Warframes as they stand now, just seem to be balanced around personal contribution to the objective, which some frames do blatantly better than others. It's not hard to see why people have different opinions on the matter.

It will work with strict role system, but our system is different. Frames don't have concrete "role", they combine different traits of few.