How Vanguard Helmet Ruined Rhino

[Phobose]

^this thread.

Your argument was poorly structured. You neglect the fact that vanguard reduces power strength by a fair amount.

Let it go, they plan on retiring the statted helmets anyways.

[SquirmyBurrito]

there was no such prompt they spoke about the eula, terms of service and privacy policy, none of which contained that document. as a company you must declare all these documents up front to allow the user to agree/disagree to it, the only thing is the terms state they can modify the terms, eula and pp without notice however those changes are not retroactive.

 

Yes there was. You agreed to all those when you installed and played the game. You can try to act like you didn't see it or whatever but that doesn't matter. You saw it, you TL;DR'd it, you agreed to it. 

Edited March 26, 2014 by SquirmyBurrito

[SquirmyBurrito]

^this thread.

Your argument was poorly structured. You neglect the fact that vanguard reduces power strength by a fair amount.

Let it go, they plan on retiring the statted helmets anyways.

 

5% is minuscule.

 

Edit: also subjective.

Edited March 26, 2014 by SquirmyBurrito

[Zhoyzu]

 

 

DE, in the name of balance, please remove the stats from ALL helmets when the time comes. Helmet stats ruined the balance in Rhino, and continue to disrupt other frames. A tank frame as fast as the weak guy is just wrong. Just imagine Heavy running around with Scout in TF2. Its just not right.

 

 

Edit: inb4 "Fast paced ninja game", "It is in the future in space, anything is possible", or "rhino fstr than me pls nerf"

 

This isn't a nerf thread. This is a plea for balance.

if you dont like rhino dont play him. removing stats from all helmets just because one terribad frame has a helmet that has little to no purpose and people flip out is no reason to make all frames suffer.  I can out run rhino primes and lokis with a scindo coptering frost. you issue with speed and movement is a personal problem. Vanguard helm is one of the most useless helms in the game.

[sanj66]

Yes there was. You agreed to all those when you installed and played the game. You can try to act like you didn't see it or whatever but that doesn't matter. You saw it, you TL;DR'd it, you agreed to it. 

seriously read what i posted , i said yes they prompted about the eula, tos and pp and we all agreed to that, there was no mention of the beta agreement upon creation or launch of the game and all the modifications and legal issues in the terms itself refer only to the tos, eula and pp, on top of that there are players who dont even use the forums or have never even visited the forums to see that. even if it were included to be covered by the tos as one of the legal documents high lighted by the tos, it does say itself modifications are not retroactive so those people from before and their activities are not covered. but as i said this is not the issue its not a guarantee to anything on the customer side. 

 

the issue is you all are talking about balance and frame reference ( i.e. he is as fast as x or faster than y), there are more important issues that make the helm a non issue, duration based skills, scaling, damage and overall effects/status and even energy consumption (relative to use), so why is a soon to be retired helm and it is being removed such an issue? referencing frame speed is also invalid as using the point that he is as fast as loki or faster than frost or saryn means nothing as there is no law stating no frame must be as fast as loki or such, not to mention rhino is not a duration based frame (atleast anymore). why dont you all talk about these real issues if you want to use the point of game balance?

[SquirmyBurrito]

seriously read what i posted , i said yes they prompted about the eula, tos and pp and we all agreed to that, there was no mention of the beta agreement upon creation or launch of the game and all the modifications and legal issues in the terms itself refer only to the tos, eula and pp, on top of that there are players who dont even use the forums or have never even visited the forums to see that. even if it were included to be covered by the tos as one of the legal documents high lighted by the tos, it does say itself modifications are not retroactive so those people from before and their activities are not covered. but as i said this is not the issue its not a guarantee to anything on the customer side. 

 

the issue is you all are talking about balance and frame reference ( i.e. he is as fast as x or faster than y), there are more important issues that make the helm a non issue, duration based skills, scaling, damage and overall effects/status and even energy consumption (relative to use), so why is a soon to be retired helm and it is being removed such an issue? referencing frame speed is also invalid as using the point that he is as fast as loki or faster than frost or saryn means nothing as there is no law stating no frame must be as fast as loki or such, not to mention rhino is not a duration based frame (atleast anymore). why dont you all talk about these real issues if you want to use the point of game balance?

 

I did read what you posted. You can claim you didn't get prompted about it, that doesn't mean you're correct.

[sanj66]

I did read what you posted. You can claim you didn't get prompted about it, that doesn't mean you're correct.

 

I did read what you posted. You can claim you didn't get prompted about it, that doesn't mean you're correct.

does it mean you are correct either? no it doesnt, and as i have stated so many times that is not he issue, why dont you reply to my 2nd paragraph in every post you keep avoiding to reply to those issues, there are larger issues if balance is your reason, and the helm along with all others stat based are being retired so there is no point to it, and the reference of speed of another frame is not a point either so what point of substance is provided and the answer is simply none, other than when it comes down to it, i dont like the helm so it must go.

[SquirmyBurrito]

does it mean you are correct either? no it doesnt, and as i have stated so many times that is not he issue, why dont you reply to my 2nd paragraph in every post you keep avoiding to reply to those issues, there are larger issues if balance is your reason, and the helm along with all others stat based are being retired so there is no point to it, and the reference of speed of another frame is not a point either so what point of substance is provided and the answer is simply none, other than when it comes down to it, i dont like the helm so it must go.

 

I don't reply to them because you are trying to downplay an issue by claiming there are other things more important. You're also misrepresenting the opposing side's argument. I have no patience for that kind of stuff.

[sanj66]

I don't reply to them because you are trying to downplay an issue by claiming there are other things more important. You're also misrepresenting the opposing side's argument. I have no patience for that kind of stuff.

the helm is being retired it is a non issue, and balance was your reason, as was enjoyment and reference all of which can be used to refute your very claims, which leads us back to the beginning other than, i dont like the helm it must go, there is no reason you can put to it.

[SquirmyBurrito]

the helm is being retired it is a non issue, and balance was your reason, as was enjoyment and reference all of which can be used to refute your very claims, which leads us back to the beginning other than, i dont like the helm it must go, there is no reason you can put to it.

 

You just proved that you never actually bothered to read what I posted. Enjoyment has never been part of my argument (IIRC), the only times I would bring it up is when someone else made a claim like "no one thinks X is fun" or "Everyone thinks Y is fun" when those things didn't apply to me.

 

Balance is an issue. The optional retirement of these stats will create an entirely new issue, that issue being new players having inferior potential for their frames. A new player's rhino will never be as fast as an older player's stat-vanguard helmet wearing one. A new player's loki will never have access to stat-essence helmet. etc etc

 

You have yet to refute any of my arguments. IIRC, you are part of the "balance doesn't matter in a PvE game" group. Realistically, the best you could hope to do to refute my arguments is either to prove that vanguard doesn't cause an issue for balance. Or, prove that it somehow contributes to balance. Notice how I didn't include "balance doesn't matter" among those options. I ignored it because that reasoning is flawed and has been proven false numerous times in the past. We have had tons of community driven nerfs and buffs, if balance didn't matter none of those would have occurred. 

[Cwierz]

Squirmy, don't pwn him to hard, you might cause visible humiliation.

 

 

the helm is being retired it is a non issue, and balance was your reason, as was enjoyment and reference all of which can be used to refute your very claims, which leads us back to the beginning other than, i dont like the helm it must go, there is no reason you can put to it.

You do not like rhino.

You like vanguard.

 

If you don't want to @(*()$ play the slow space ninja don't play as him. Quit making excuses to make him what he is not and breaking the game because you want something to be what it isn't.

 

Your enjoyment argument is now no longer valid. Rhino should have never had that helm, and DE has even said so.

 

Aside from what I said above, enjoyment is unrelated to balance. If you like a gameplay element, you would in theory be able to still enjoy it after a removal of an unfair advantage or a light nerf. So quit your whining and *@##$ing about balance.

 

Balance is a good thing and denying it as so is the equivalent of saying the earth is flat. To a person who doesn't know (or somebody who rejects reality) balance might be a bad thing, just as to a person who doesn't know might believe that the earth is flat. I have found 10/10 times people who reject balance in a game know little of what they are talking about.

 

No exception here.

Edited March 27, 2014 by Cwierz

[Thirsty_Pickle]

Rhino is the biggest frame.

He should not have a helmet that buffs his speed.

Because he is a tank frame.

[TheStag]

Rhino is the biggest frame.

He should not have a helmet that buffs his speed.

Because he is a tank frame.

Aside from other balance issues, that is some of the exact simply logic that I attempted to utilize in this thread to support my point, but haters gonna hate.

[sanj66]

Aside from other balance issues, that is some of the exact simply logic that I attempted to utilize in this thread to support my point, but haters gonna hate.

 

Aside from other balance issues, that is some of the exact simply logic that I attempted to utilize in this thread to support my point, but haters gonna hate.

as i said to the other player if he is a tank then how is a non tank able to out tank him? you logic of a tank being slow got speed bumped there, as if a support frame can out tank him it ruins the logic of him being or must be slow as all logic of tanks being the bastion against damage was just thrown out the door by "classes" or "roles" not being what is usually defined by such terms as tank or supporter class/role. so your reference to what you think a tank should be because of a reference to what it is in another game cannot hold up here. not to mention you failed to realize his speed was never his drawback in relation to other frames, his inability to scale due to him being a static stat based frame is, so with vanguard helm or not his drawback/s still exist.

 

 

Squirmy, don't pwn him to hard, you might cause visible humiliation.

 

 

You do not like rhino.

You like vanguard.

 

If you don't want to @(*()$ play the slow space ninja don't play as him. Quit making excuses to make him what he is not and breaking the game because you want something to be what it isn't.

 

Your enjoyment argument is now no longer valid. Rhino should have never had that helm, and DE has even said so.

 

Aside from what I said above, enjoyment is unrelated to balance. If you like a gameplay element, you would in theory be able to still enjoy it after a removal of an unfair advantage or a light nerf. So quit your whining and *@##$ing about balance.

 

Balance is a good thing and denying it as so is the equivalent of saying the earth is flat. To a person who doesn't know (or somebody who rejects reality) balance might be a bad thing, just as to a person who doesn't know might believe that the earth is flat. I have found 10/10 times people who reject balance in a game know little of what they are talking about.

 

No exception here.

the speed factor in rhino does not break the game, if you all want to talk about balance and game breaking issues related to balance there is a plethora of issues that actually affect balance and gameplay and not a soon to be retired helm, issues like duration based skills, damage, skill scaling and skill effects/debuffs. the speed boost provided by this helm is not a game breaking issue nor is it an unfair advantage, and if you bothered to even read my post, it was players who wanted the helm gone because he was as fast as their loki complained about enjoyment and i said enjoyment can be used both ways and it can and that is not a valid point to ask for the old players who have vanguard to have their helm converted to stat-less along with every other old helm. you clearly didnt even read a single comment posted here nor know what truly is affecting balance and game scaling. 

 

 

Rhino is the biggest frame.

He should not have a helmet that buffs his speed.

Because he is a tank frame.

if he is a tank frame then let them make him be a real tank, as it is he isnt the true tank in game, as there are non tank frames that out tank him, so by your logic there are greater issues than him having this helm, because if a non tank frame can out tank a tank, then what is to say he cant be faster than a non tank?

 

if you all want him to be the tank or fill the role he is meant to be in your eyes then truly make him a tank as well and up his armor etc and lobby to return his iron skin to duration based skill, so he can then be a tank vs a support frame like trinity who has permanent invincibility. all in all the arguments of he is a tank he must be slow doesnt hold as warframe as with other frames does not follow the traditional classes, not to mention there are games where tanks are actually one of the fastest classes in game (c9 guardian and raiderz defender for example). the issue some one raised about it affecting the enjoyment of other players earlier on in the thread, conversely you are trying to affect the enjoyment of the vanguard players, there is no right on either side as it player dependent and each one has his pov. to those talking about or referencing him in respect to other frames, there is no rule or law regarding a frame's speed to say x must never be as fast as y or faster than x. saying it removes his one draw back is also false as almost every other if not all other frames do have duration based skills which allow them to scale to higher tier enemies, rhino does not he is basically strength based and his values are static and mob dependent, eg at higher tiers iron skin can be gone in a few hits while blessing stays for its duration no matter what mob level, same with chaos, bastille, etc. to those claiming balance and saying this is a game breaking helm, it is not if you are talking balance you must talk about balance on the whole, i.e. the frame+weapon+helm, not just helm as a helm can help offset imbalance in either of the other 2 points of balance, that is in rhino's case if your skills cant scale there has to be something to help increase your survival at higher tiers, in this case they choose speed/agility id your going to talk about pvp, rhino still can get pwned with the vanguard. as it stands no real reason for nuking already existing vanguard helms was made other than i dislike it was made so it has to go.

[kaboomonme]

-wall of text-

Are you aware that Rhino's Ironskin draws aggro from enemies?

[Zetaemu]

They need to just remove the stats completely on all helments and stop catering to applease people that alerady own it. Just stick to their guns, it's a Beta and things have to get balanced. Like some have said before each frame has its weak/strong points, be it speed, shields, stamina, energy, hp, or armor. So why give the slowest frame insane mobility over everthing else?. Rhino has an amazing kit that allows him to tank, CC, and team Buff. With the increased mobility its just to much. There is no cause and effect that challanges people for diversity. I mean really, why play anything else?. The game begins to lose its variety of team play only to have the same frames in every map. This is what makes it upsetting, this is what needs to change, and this is the main reason people complain. The "mods" should alleviate some of this but still have game changing elements/playstyle. Not a piece of cosmetic gear.

 

I know there are a lot more changes and balance fixes still coming. But I do hope things like this get address and not brushed off.

[BloodArmoredApostle]

All I see here is a major statement with a big sign and a crowd outside of Rhino's Cryopod 
"To Hell With Customization/Specialization. We don't want to feel Offended!"

[kaboomonme]

All I see here is a major statement with a big sign and a crowd outside of Rhino's Cryopod 

"To Hell With Customization/Specialization. We don't want to feel Offended!"

>Customization/Specialization

>Obvious best choice

try harder pal

[Trouvo]

I agree he should have never had the helm

I enjoy using the helm

I dont use him that often unless soloing high-end stuff

I still dont have access to prime excal, or the vandal stuff i missed out on, same thing with no longer being stat-ed for newbs

Yes he is OP with the speed, I use the speed to run to revive people, not to rush through stuff, so its still utility for me

 

Would I be fine without the stats, yes

Would I be upset if they were just taken from me, yes

Would that stop me from playing/playing rhino, no

would it be fair/balanced, sure?

Does it really matter that much in the grand scheme of things? no not really

 

Personally I go back and forth between quite a few frames just depends on what i feel like playing and who/what I am facing

[sanj66]

They need to just remove the stats completely on all helments and stop catering to applease people that alerady own it. Just stick to their guns, it's a Beta and things have to get balanced. Like some have said before each frame has its weak/strong points, be it speed, shields, stamina, energy, hp, or armor. So why give the slowest frame insane mobility over everthing else?. Rhino has an amazing kit that allows him to tank, CC, and team Buff. With the increased mobility its just to much. There is no cause and effect that challanges people for diversity. I mean really, why play anything else?. The game begins to lose its variety of team play only to have the same frames in every map. This is what makes it upsetting, this is what needs to change, and this is the main reason people complain. The "mods" should alleviate some of this but still have game changing elements/playstyle. Not a piece of cosmetic gear.

I know there are a lot more changes and balance fixes still coming. But I do hope things like this get address and not brushed off.

because speed was never his drawback, scaling and his stat build is, if they remove his speed then to make him viable at higher tiers the option would be to revert him back to duration based type skills, as at lvl 1XX mobs trinity duration is fixed yet the tank rhino, his iron skin drops in 1-2 hits and he doesnt have the energy pool to keep his iron skin up and if you say he has high shields, lets put it like this 2200 iron skin goes in 1-2 hits, 1100 odd shields would stand maybe 1 hit, to alleviate this they added mobility so he can survive, frost got invulnerability to help with his scaling now, rhino got speed. if you want balance and want him to be a tank, and that is the reason people are saying he must be slow then you will have to also lobby that his skills either get converted back to duration to match a frame like trinity, or change trinity's skill so she cant out tank the tanks, not to mention duration based skills are the true abusers of imbalance in the game over strength based frames. they also had the helm due to him needing all his mod capacity to be made viable due to him being a strength based frame and not a duration,as you would not have the extra slot/s for rush and/or marathon.

also the helm wasnt meant to be cosmetic, now they want it to be cosmetic, maybe due to the upcoming focus mode etc so that there wont be stat stacking or so. the problem is people bought it for functionality not cosmetic, i dont even use my rhino i rather run around in volt or excalibur but i dont want a cosmetic, its a waste of resources quite frankly and the choice scott made was the right choice to allow people to keep their helms.

Edited March 27, 2014 by sanj66

[Zetaemu]

because speed was never his drawback, scaling and his stat build is, if they remove his speed then to make him viable at higher tiers the option would be to revert him back to duration based type skills, as at lvl 1XX mobs trinity duration is fixed yet the tank rhino, his iron skin drops in 1-2 hits and he doesnt have the energy pool to keep his iron skin up and if you say he has high shields, lets put it like this 2200 iron skin goes in 1-2 hits, 1100 odd shields would stand maybe 1 hit, to alleviate this they added mobility so he can survive, frost got invulnerability to help with his scaling now, rhino got speed. if you want balance and want him to be a tank, and that is the reason people are saying he must be slow then you will have to also lobby that his skills either get converted back to duration to match a frame like trinity, or change trinity's skill so she cant out tank the tanks, not to mention duration based skills are the true abusers of imbalance in the game over strength based frames. they also had the helm due to him needing all his mod capacity to be made viable due to him being a strength based frame and not a duration,as you would not have the extra slot/s for rush and/or marathon.

also the helm wasnt meant to be cosmetic, now they want it to be cosmetic, maybe due to the upcoming focus mode etc so that there wont be stat stacking or so. the problem is people bought it for functionality not cosmetic, i dont even use my rhino i rather run around in volt or excalibur but i dont want a cosmetic, its a waste of resources quite frankly and the choice scott made was the right choice to allow people to keep their helms.

 

I personally own most of not all helm/cosmetic/frame max 30 and forma'd. 600+ hours into the game. Hell I even re-rolled my account just to start all over again. Ive been there and I know what your saying. But thats another issue. The enemy scaling atm is horrid. There needs to be a ways to adjust to the diffculty and not just make enemies scale to abnormal bullet sponge/one shotters, where we just hold out in hopes that a team/trinity nevers run out of energy. Hell even then you can stay invincible if a trin keeps e.vamp up. I dont know about you, but to me there is someting wrong with how that plays out. In all though, the game is playable and has its merits so far. I think the added affixs to enemy leaders is nice to. It is beta and moving along great.

 

But I'll still stand by what I said. There still isnt much diversity with how it is atm. And having him at a higher role advantage because of his kit + added speed makes him a god tier frame. The way he is presented is as if he is the Iron Wall of warframe. He can take the hit and dish it out, slow but hits like a truck. Because he is the heaviest warframe.

[kaboomonme]

-mountain of text-

To summarize all of this so other people can understand it better :

Excuses :

1 : Speed is not his drawback, so it should stay

An excuse if I ever saw one.

2 : He's not a tank

You're right. He's not JUST a tank. He also has a team buff, a mobility skill, a health buffer, AND a good CC + damage ability.

If you'd like to call him a "Strength" frame, I'd look at Excalibur, having low defenses, 1 good CC, 2 decent damage skills, and 1 meh mobility skill.

Arguably he needs the speed more, and even HE doesn't have a choice for free speed just for buying/owning a helmet.

That's not accounting for the sheer amount gained when using both Rhino Prime and Vanguard together.

3 : Trinity is better tank

Trinity heals, gives energy, has single-target stuns and can return damage.
Rhino can ACTUALLY tank, since Ironskin is what draws the enemy aggro. This can allow a breather for teammates, draw enemies away from the cryopod, etc.

Trinity may give invulnerability, but you can get stunlocked, staggered, and knocked down even while invulnerable, not effectively protecting anything other than the well-being of her own teammates.

The idea of "Tanking" is different for both, comparing them does nothing.

4 : Trinity should be nerfed

Not NERF nerfed, but she needs a re-work of her abilities. Agreed.

5 : He needs the speed boost from the helm cos he doesn't have enough slots

This can be said for a lot of frames. Invalid.

6 : The helmet wasn't meant to be cosmetic

The recent helmets are statless, and the devs have expressed their interest in converting helmets into purely cosmetic, as they realized the restrictions brought by helmet having stats attached. I'm not sure what you mean by "it wasn't meant to be cosmetic".

7 : People bought it for the stats

If every time DE realizes they did something they didn't intend later, and try to make a change, and people like you refuse to let the change happen unless it benefits you in some way, I don't like where this game is going.

8 : I don't use Rhino for speed, I use other frames for that

There you have it. You don't use Rhino for speed, yet with Rhino Prime + Vanguard he can achieve the same speed as speedy frames, which he doesn't need. You don't use Rhino for speed, but he should have speed. Kay.

9 : Cosmetics are a waste of resources

This isn't even trying.

Your Conclusion : It was the right choice to let players keep their Stat-boosting Vanguard helmet.


-> None of the above addresses one of the biggest problems caused by this, where players that come AFTER this change would not receive a completely free advantage, as it requires :

- Rhino Prime, which a newer player would arguably take a lot longer to obtain, unless they spend plat on it.

- Vanguard Helmet, which gives a flat 25% boost, but will no longer be available to them.

And before you bring this up again :

10. Speed doesn't matter in a PvE game

It does when it affects player's bias towards frame preferences, an advantage that newer players will never have, and converging loadout choices. Edited March 27, 2014 by kaboomonme

[AuroraSonicBoom]

He doesn't and shouldn't be outrunning all other frames even if exclusively specced for speed. Outrunning other slower frames that are specced for speed? Sure. Outrunning medium and high speed frames specced for speed? Never.

 

If the devs don't want to change the helmet stats then the game simply needs to employ a global speed boost cap at 30%(excluding volt's speed) like they did with power efficiency at 75%. A max speed for Rhino of 1.17 or 1.3 respectively still outruns any other non speed modded frame without being able to keep up with literally everybody else if they themselves build for speed. It would make the choice of whether or not to use vanguard meaningful, as it'd basically act as an extra mod slot with an almost maxed rush on it, giving Rhino players more room to spec into other stats. It'd be still a big advantage, so players who paid for the helmet wouldn't have their product devalued.

 

Alternatively, you could always buff every other frame's sprint speed by 30%, but that's a far less elegant solution putting even more emphasis on rushing, which the game definitely doesn't need more of at this point.

[Rakosta_Kai]

This thread makes me giggle...

All the posters famous for using OP frames arguing about nerfing a a formerly OP frame regarding movement speed of all things.

Completely ignoring the fact that Iron Skin has lost it's effectiveness across the board level wise and Stomp's damage has been neutralized because it's blast damage. His most powerful ability can't even be modified.

 

So the original argument was, "It's not fair!!!!"

 

Now it's, "It's not fair to the new players!!!!" ...Even though you caused the current debacle.

 

These scorched earth tactics are silly... You really think that DE is going to alienate the entirety of it's existing playerbase to satisfy the selfish whims of 1% of you?

 

Really?

 

Really?

 

Ok...

 

For every new player that complains about this having happened... I'm pointing them at threads like this and informing them of why this had to happen.

The ridiculous need to complain about anything without any thought given to other players will be a cautionary tale.

[Boxyninja]

Edit: And what about the rhino horn? Why doesn't Rhino have any? Why has Excalibur got Rhino's horn?

look at his lower regions

 

Did you just hop in this thread and completely ignore the OP? Seriously. OP is asking for balance. Rhino's one weak point was his speed. Now he can turn that weakness into a STRENGTH (reg rhino=fourth fastest, RhiPri= Tied for fastest).

the problem with being slow as a weakness is that you usually miss out on most of the xp and kills unless ur on defense.   yes he shouldnt be this fast but they would need to buff his base speed a small amount if they force the stat change which DE wont do, so i dont see the point of this thread. i see the point it makes