How Vanguard Helmet Ruined Rhino

[Riasiru]

You know what I think? I think sprinting should be handled like sprinting. It's that time again, folks! Check Webster!!!

 

Full Definition of SPRINT

:  to run or go at top speed especially for a short distance

 

Ok, now that we've established that. I don't think sprinting is the right word for it. Sprint Speed isn't even the right name for it. It's running speed. Hear me out on this... What if "sprint" speed was actually sprinting? The faster a frame's sprint the faster they consumed stamina. A frame that literally ran all out as fast as possible would burn through their stamina quickly while a slow freaking frame that jogged would run through it more slowly. This would mean that putting Vanguard on Rhino would cause his stamina to run out faster when he sprinted, resulting in being able to run for a shorter period of time.

 

Now, why on earth would I want to make it so that sprinting was something you only used in a pinch and made it less worth while in running forever? Simple. This is my next bit of advice.

 

Make 'walk speed' your run speed. This is the speed at which all players should be comfortable using to get from point A to point B. Sprint is only used to quickly close the distance between enemies while using melee, however, it would be far more effective at doing so than it is now. I also think that stamina needs to be able to go into the negatives and that players should not be able to roll/melee until after it has returned to the positives. Otherwise... Why the hell do  we even have stamina? I can spam melee forever without any real worry over my stamina gauge... (Go ahead, spam it. You will never be stopped.) 

 

Why do I say this? Because I think if one thing is far more broken than the helmet that you claim is broken (I still think it isn't.) I think it's the entire sprint/stamina system as a whole. In fact, if this was fixed, I doubt you'd have any soap box to preach from at all. Loki will still have the fastest sprint speed, he will still be able to dart behind enemy lines, but he does not need to sprint for the entire duration of his invisibility. You want game breaking? Perma invis + highest sprint speed. Why fight anything when you can just run to the end?

 

Oh, and I still say DE needs to either give everyone the option for stats or no one. The middle ground is still a giant middle finger to new players. Will I be happy if they take Vanguard's buffs? No, I'll be miffed... Even though I don't even use him anymore... Suppose mostly I just want the option of playing as him just in case his attributes are favorable for something in the future... Anyway, back on track! Will I be as mad if they go about it as they are? Not nearly. At least if they took all stats away they could implement such equipable optional buffs/debuffs in another way that's available to all players. That's fair. Their current idea of letting old players keep their stat helmets while no new one's are given out? HORRIBLE IDEA!! (I have Vanguard, by the way. I am not so selfish as to not see things from the perspective of others.) I have recommended this game to people, but if DE is going to handle new players with a 2nd class citizen approach, why would I recommend this game to friends? Oh yeah guys, it's tons of fun but DE doesn't really care about new players anymore, though. You'll need someone to help you through the third planet in the system and Mag is the only viable frame to get early on. Loki is to difficult for new players and Excalibur is gimped without min-maxing his Radial Blind. You should pick up Rhino when you have the chance. He's one of the best for new players as he has a low skill ceiling and can really help ease you into the game. Oh, just be aware that if you use him that older players are going to have a special helmet with stats on it that you can never get and they'll out run you. You're going to get carried through missions as a result and really spend most of the time bored.

 

... Yeah... I went off on a huge tangent and rant...

[AscendantWyvern]

 

 

Ok, now that we've established that. I don't think sprinting is the right word for it. Sprint Speed isn't even the right name for it. It's running speed. Hear me out on this... What if "sprint" speed was actually sprinting? The faster a frame's sprint the faster they consumed stamina. A frame that literally ran all out as fast as possible would burn through their stamina quickly while a slow freaking frame that jogged would run through it more slowly. This would mean that putting Vanguard on Rhino would cause his stamina to run out faster when he sprinted, resulting in being able to run for a shorter period of time.

 

Now, why on earth would I want to make it so that sprinting was something you only used in a pinch and made it less worth while in running forever? Simple. This is my next bit of advice.

 

Make 'walk speed' your run speed. This is the speed at which all players should be comfortable using to get from point A to point B. Sprint is only used to quickly close the distance between enemies while using melee, however, it would be far more effective at doing so than it is now. I also think that stamina needs to be able to go into the negatives and that players should not be able to roll/melee until after it has returned to the positives. Otherwise... Why the hell do  we even have stamina? I can spam melee forever without any real worry over my stamina gauge... (Go ahead, spam it. You will never be stopped.) 

 

 

This suggestion has been made before (well, more or less the Shift key being the "parkour" button, while sprinting with default...but I digress)...and in fact, I enjoyed the thought of it.  It would raise the pace of gameplay without enforcing exploits like zorencoptering or slidedashing.

[LazyKnight]

 The faster a frame's sprint the faster they consumed stamina. A frame that literally ran all out as fast as possible would burn through their stamina quickly while a slow freaking frame that jogged would run through it more slowly.

The tried to do this before with the stamina patch, and rhino could sprint like 3-5 meters before all stamina was consumed. This type of change would only work if they made all speed of frames 1 and separated the movement speed from sprint speed. Their experiment made all wall running next to imposable to do with Rhino, as he was a fat-blob that couldn't get off the ground to climb a wall without stamina mods.

Edited March 27, 2014 by LazyKnight

[SquirmyBurrito]

All I see here is a major statement with a big sign and a crowd outside of Rhino's Cryopod 

"To Hell With Customization/Specialization. We don't want to feel Offended!"

 

Specialization? Vanguard isn't specialization, its a free (practically drawback free) boost. The complete removal of stats would allow for more customization via not having any of your choices encouraged or discouraged. No one was talking about feeling offended. If you aren't going to actually bother reading through the thread please just remove yourself from it. 

 

This thread makes me giggle...

All the posters famous for using OP frames arguing about nerfing a a formerly OP frame regarding movement speed of all things.

Completely ignoring the fact that Iron Skin has lost it's effectiveness across the board level wise and Stomp's damage has been neutralized because it's blast damage. His most powerful ability can't even be modified.

 

So the original argument was, "It's not fair!!!!"

 

Now it's, "It's not fair to the new players!!!!" ...Even though you caused the current debacle.

 

These scorched earth tactics are silly... You really think that DE is going to alienate the entirety of it's existing playerbase to satisfy the selfish whims of 1% of you?

 

Really?

 

Really?

 

Ok...

 

For every new player that complains about this having happened... I'm pointing them at threads like this and informing them of why this had to happen.

The ridiculous need to complain about anything without any thought given to other players will be a cautionary tale.

 

What OP frame am I famous for using? Please, don't say Loki is OP. I will fall out of my chair in laughter.

 

The original argument was never "it's not fair".

 

No, now "it's not fair for new players" has joined the original cry for balance. We didn't cause this. Had DE done what we were calling for, this balance issue would be gone and/or they would have just forced the removal of stats.

 

>Appeal to the majority.

 

And when you point players at this thread I will direct their attention to those people QQ'ing and screaming for our ideas to not be heard by DE. 

[SquirmyBurrito]

To summarize all of this so other people can understand it better :

Excuses :

1 : Speed is not his drawback, so it should stay

An excuse if I ever saw one.

2 : He's not a tank

You're right. He's not JUST a tank. He also has a team buff, a mobility skill, a health buffer, AND a good CC + damage ability.

If you'd like to call him a "Strength" frame, I'd look at Excalibur, having low defenses, 1 good CC, 2 decent damage skills, and 1 meh mobility skill.

Arguably he needs the speed more, and even HE doesn't have a choice for free speed just for buying/owning a helmet.

That's not accounting for the sheer amount gained when using both Rhino Prime and Vanguard together.

3 : Trinity is better tank

Trinity heals, gives energy, has single-target stuns and can return damage.

Rhino can ACTUALLY tank, since Ironskin is what draws the enemy aggro. This can allow a breather for teammates, draw enemies away from the cryopod, etc.

Trinity may give invulnerability, but you can get stunlocked, staggered, and knocked down even while invulnerable, not effectively protecting anything other than the well-being of her own teammates.

The idea of "Tanking" is different for both, comparing them does nothing.

4 : Trinity should be nerfed

Not NERF nerfed, but she needs a re-work of her abilities. Agreed.

5 : He needs the speed boost from the helm cos he doesn't have enough slots

This can be said for a lot of frames. Invalid.

6 : The helmet wasn't meant to be cosmetic

The recent helmets are statless, and the devs have expressed their interest in converting helmets into purely cosmetic, as they realized the restrictions brought by helmet having stats attached. I'm not sure what you mean by "it wasn't meant to be cosmetic".

7 : People bought it for the stats

If every time DE realizes they did something they didn't intend later, and try to make a change, and people like you refuse to let the change happen unless it benefits you in some way, I don't like where this game is going.

8 : I don't use Rhino for speed, I use other frames for that

There you have it. You don't use Rhino for speed, yet with Rhino Prime + Vanguard he can achieve the same speed as speedy frames, which he doesn't need. You don't use Rhino for speed, but he should have speed. Kay.

9 : Cosmetics are a waste of resources

This isn't even trying.

Your Conclusion : It was the right choice to let players keep their Stat-boosting Vanguard helmet.

-> None of the above addresses one of the biggest problems caused by this, where players that come AFTER this change would not receive a completely free advantage, as it requires :

- Rhino Prime, which a newer player would arguably take a lot longer to obtain, unless they spend plat on it.

- Vanguard Helmet, which gives a flat 25% boost, but will no longer be available to them.

And before you bring this up again :

10. Speed doesn't matter in a PvE game

It does when it affects player's bias towards frame preferences, an advantage that newer players will never have, and converging loadout choices.

 

This needs to be added to the OP. 

[Tsrintox]

Well consider rhino's main role...reviving... Wouldnt you want him to be fast? Most of the games I've played have been pub and yes I noticed douchy rhino fanboys in particular, but in an organized game, rhino's revival skills are better than valkyr's just b.c of his increased speed+ability to take a tiny bit more damage than normal frames(other than valkyr and trinity)

[SquirmyBurrito]

Well consider rhino's main role...reviving... Wouldnt you want him to be fast? Most of the games I've played have been pub and yes I noticed douchy rhino fanboys in particular, but in an organized game, rhino's revival skills are better than valkyr's just b.c of his increased speed+ability to take a tiny bit more damage than normal frames(other than valkyr and trinity)

 

How is reviving his main role? Ash is the best revive'r.

Edited March 27, 2014 by SquirmyBurrito

[MirageKnight]

Well consider rhino's main role...reviving... Wouldnt you want him to be fast? Most of the games I've played have been pub and yes I noticed douchy rhino fanboys in particular, but in an organized game, rhino's revival skills are better than valkyr's just b.c of his increased speed+ability to take a tiny bit more damage than normal frames(other than valkyr and trinity)

 

Well said. This underscores Rhino's role as a true support frame. All his skills revolve around either directly aiding other Tenno teammates or allowing him to aid them.

 

Charge: Allows Rhino to quickly smash through a wall of enemies to reach a squad mate or squad mates so he can...

 

Stomp: Kill or at least stun lock said enemies to give him time to revive any fallen squad mates or give other players more time to do what they need to do - escape, counter attack, recharge, reload and so on.

 

Roar: AoE damage buff. The effects are minor really, but any buff to damage for all nearby squad mates is welcome.

 

Iron Skin: A nice damage soak that synergizes well with his ability to break through and aid others. It buys Rhino the time he needs to get in, stomp, and revive fallen allies in a fierce fire-fight. In addition, it allows him to draw fire meant for other players.

 

 

So he is most definitely a support 'frame. As a support 'frame he's no good to the rest of the team if he can't keep up with said team. That said, decent speed is essential to allowing Rhino players to do their job. This is why Vanguard is a practically a must have - it addresses a very real problem, that of Rhino's inherent inability to keep up with the rest of a team - which makes it frustrating and not fun to play for some people.This is why I feel his base speed needs to be buffed to match that of Excal. I'm completely fine with having stats yanked from helms. Just make the minimum movement speed of Rhino (and Sayrn and Frost for that matter) on par with the majority of all the other 'frames out there.

[SquirmyBurrito]

Well said. This underscores Rhino's role as a true support frame. All his skills revolve around either directly aiding other Tenno teammates or allowing him to aid them.

 

Charge: Allows Rhino to quickly smash through a wall of enemies to reach a squad mate or squad mates so he can...

 

Stomp: Kill or at least stun lock said enemies to give him time to revive any fallen squad mates or give other players more time to do what they need to do - escape, counter attack, recharge, reload and so on.

 

Roar: AoE damage buff. The effects are minor really, but any buff to damage for all nearby squad mates is welcome.

 

Iron Skin: A nice damage soak that synergizes well with his ability to break through and aid others. It buys Rhino the time he needs to get in, stomp, and revive fallen allies in a fierce fire-fight. In addition, it allows him to draw fire meant for other players.

 

 

So he is most definitely a support 'frame. As a support 'frame he's no good to the rest of the team if he can't keep up with said team. That said, decent speed is essential to allowing Rhino players to do their job. This is why Vanguard is a practically a must have - it addresses a very real problem, that of Rhino's inherent inability to keep up with the rest of a team - which makes it frustrating and not fun to play for some people.This is why I feel his base speed needs to be buffed to match that of Excal. I'm completely fine with having stats yanked from helms. Just make the minimum movement speed of Rhino (and Sayrn and Frost for that matter) on par with the majority of all the other 'frames out there.

 

That's like saying Ash is a support frame because...

 

Shuriken allows him to aid his teammates by killing things.

 

Teleport allows him to quickly reach downed teammates so he can 

 

Use Smoke Screen to revive them without having to worry about enemies disrupting him

 

And smokescreen helps his teammates by killing enemies, thus lessening their work load.

Edited March 27, 2014 by SquirmyBurrito

[Rakosta_Kai]

Specialization? Vanguard isn't specialization, its a free (practically drawback free) boost. The complete removal of stats would allow for more customization via not having any of your choices encouraged or discouraged. No one was talking about feeling offended. If you aren't going to actually bother reading through the thread please just remove yourself from it. 

 

 

What OP frame am I famous for using? Please, don't say Loki is OP. I will fall out of my chair in laughter.

 

The original argument was never "it's not fair".

 

No, now "it's not fair for new players" has joined the original cry for balance. We didn't cause this. Had DE done what we were calling for, this balance issue would be gone and/or they would have just forced the removal of stats.

 

>Appeal to the majority.

 

And when you point players at this thread I will direct their attention to those people QQ'ing and screaming for our ideas to not be heard by DE. 

You may commence your descent from that chair...

Overpowered in any game means that a skill or item has the ability to trivialize the content it's used on.

Loki is OP.

A character that can endlessly negate the enemies most powerful tools

The ability to move the balance of threat off of themselves at will

Two abilities to move it on to other players at will is not only OP, but foul...

Loki could have 2hp and shields and would still be OP if modded correctly.

 

All this for the low, low cost of about 50 energy with max efficiency... All while having one of the highest energy pools in the game.

 

Loki players love to hide behind the fact that their HP,Armor, and Shields are all low and this is the case for not being OP.

Tell ya what... I'd love to see Radial Disarm given a limited duration and Invisibility's duration lowered to Ash's level to give Loki the same starting stats as Ash. Then let's see how master that race is then.

Loki players wouldn't say that trade was fair though, would they?

 

Trinity, likewise, is OP and needs to be nerfed.... Not adjusted... Nerfed. Everyone can see that but the folks who main her.

Got some bias showing there?

 

Take the Jedi Mind tricks elsewhere, bub... Not working.

 

I don't run around asking for nerfs, because I'm not blind.

People in glass houses, etc...

Anyone can look at my post history and see this.

You can't say the same...

Apply revisionist history to this thread all you want... All anyone has to do is look at the history of your posts.

[SquirmyBurrito]

You may commence your descent from that chair...

Overpowered in any game means that a skill or item has the ability to trivialize the content it's used on.

Loki is OP.

A character that can endlessly negate the enemies most powerful tools

The ability to move the balance of threat off of themselves at will

Two abilities to move it on to other players at will is not only OP, but foul...

Loki could have 2hp and shields and would still be OP if modded correctly.

 

All this for the low, low cost of about 50 energy with max efficiency... All while having one of the highest energy pools in the game.

 

Loki players love to hide behind the fact that their HP,Armor, and Shields are all low and this is the case for not being OP.

Tell ya what... I'd love to see Radial Disarm given a limited duration and Invisibility's duration lowered to Ash's level to give Loki the same starting stats as Ash. Then let's see how master that race is then.

Loki players wouldn't say that trade was fair though, would they?

 

Trinity, likewise, is OP and needs to be nerfed.... Not adjusted... Nerfed. Everyone can see that but the folks who main her.

Got some bias showing there?

 

Take the Jedi Mind tricks elsewhere, bub... Not working.

 

I don't run around asking for nerfs, because I'm not blind.

People in glass houses, etc...

Anyone can look at my post history and see this.

You can't say the same...

Apply revisionist history to this thread all you want... All anyone has to do is look at the history of your posts.

 

LOL^999999

 

Loki doesn't trivialize content. A disarmed enemy is still a dangerous enemy. They don't suddenly lose all that damage, they just lose their ranged capabilities. Loki isn't the only frame who can shut down ranged enemies, and he isn't the best at doing it. I'm not going to mention other frames by name (unless it is requested) as that always comes off like I'm trying to throw someone else under the bus.

 

I would agree to those suggestions (not the health and shield nerf one) as long as Invisibility was given Smoke Screen's radial stun. I have and use a build that gives me ~5 seconds of invisibility. That's it. And it works fine. Duration based Radial Disarm isn't a problem as long as its duration is a reasonable length for an ult (8 seconds is not reasonable IMO). With the suggested tweaks to your suggestions I wouldn't be hindered, and I wouldn't be too salty over the change.

 

Trinity needs a re-work. I hope that bias question wasn't aimed at me, because I don't main her. I main Loki.

 

What Jedi mind tricks?

 

You just said Trinity needs a nerf.

Stop.

You just asked for a nerf to two frames, so you can't say that.

Looking at my post history reveals my support for a few nerfs, and my opposition to a few nerfs. I do not support any and every nerf that I see suggested.

Your hypocrisy is making me uncomfortable. Could you try to cover it up a bit better?

Edited March 27, 2014 by SquirmyBurrito

[HackShield]

why makes the movment speed a frame like rhino op? XD

 

Sorry if i dont understand that but he got 300 armour 1290 shield arround 800 hp and his iron skin his roar as boost and stomp what not get killed is midair so let him be fast O.o .

 

so he have no opertunity from the speed , like loki need to to take cover or hit the enemy if he wanna run off but rhino is like "maeh running? here stomp and i may run to be frist in the exit"

 

only thing i would mention that a frame that isnt that stable get a micro boost like trini could have 0,05 more sprint or so <.< to get a better feeling beside crouching .

 

and hm i choose every frame , beside banshee, over rhino cause hes boring so hardly boring cause there isnt really a need for a tank if you got a nice team and self in randoms i choose my oberon cause he can heal is a bit mobile and his finsher is ok o.o and he looks like a @(*()$ paladin :D

Edited March 27, 2014 by HackShield

[Steelfeathers]

I don't see what's the big beef with Rhino's Vanguard helmet. S#&amp;&#036; I can have a frame without rush and I can keep up with VanRhino, even though not all the time (that's because I use maglev instead of rush, but you probably never heard of it.)

 

Seriously, I don't care if some jerkoff gets ahead of me, because if he did he'd either:

A) Done the mission for us.

B) Be dead because he has no one that can reach him in time to rez him.

 

Honestly, I could be using Zephyr and leave everyone in the dust.

 

i have a rhino. i also have the vanguard helm. and i haven't used either in months.

 

what is it with you people always saying "because of this reason there is no reason to use (insert random weapon/frame/power here) because there's no reason to use anything else.

 

know what i use? what ever is fun, and right now i get the most enjoyment out of zephyr, my akstiletto, my obex, and my phage.

^My utmost respect.

[Rakosta_Kai]

LOL^999999

 

Loki doesn't trivialize content. A disarmed enemy is still a dangerous enemy. They don't suddenly lose all that damage, they just lose their ranged capabilities. Loki isn't the only frame who can shut down ranged enemies, and he isn't the best at doing it. I'm not going to mention other frames by name (unless it is requested) as that always comes off like I'm trying to throw someone else under the bus.

 

I would agree to those suggestions (not the health and shield nerf one) as long as Invisibility was given Smoke Screen's radial stun. I have and use a build that gives me ~5 seconds of invisibility. That's it. And it works fine. Duration based Radial Disarm isn't a problem as long as its duration is a reasonable length for an ult (8 seconds is not reasonable IMO). With the suggested tweaks to your suggestions I wouldn't be hindered, and I wouldn't be too salty over the change.

 

Trinity needs a re-work. I hope that bias question wasn't aimed at me, because I don't main her. I main Loki.

 

What Jedi mind tricks?

 

You just said Trinity needs a nerf.

Stop.

You just asked for a nerf to two frames, so you can't say that.

Looking at my post history reveals my support for a few nerfs, and my opposition to a few nerfs. I do not support any and every nerf that I see suggested.

For someone famous for telling others to read... You should attempt it.

 

Or you should just try truth.

 

I didn't ask for a nerf to any frame... I responded to your questions and revisionist statements.

 

Had I, you'd know... I'd start a topic about it. You'd come and post some ridiculous and acerbic witticism displaying your contempt or support for the idea. This is in keeping with the bulk of your posts. Likewise completely visible in the post history.

Am I lying?

 

You asked what frame you played was OP. I answered.

Was any of what I said a lie? Any of it? Say what you want.. Move that idea past 99% of the Loki players and they'd scream and faint.

 

In another reply you stated that Trinity needed adjusting as opposed to a nerf.

Am I lying?

 

All of this to clean up the crap you have been posting for at least a month.

You can't clean this up man... You should stop.

 

All anyone needs to do is read your history... That's it.

 

You and many others got butthurt over something nonsensical and now you won't let it go.

You ought to though.

When people come up with ideas that won't mistreat new players.. you don't support that.  You didn't get what you wanted so now it's "all or nothing".

 

You have to be smart enough to see that this won't work as intended, but you do it anyway.

 

It's ridiculous enough that probably only 30% (generous estimate) of the playerbase actually follows these boards and that players like you are constantly trying to set policy for them.

 

In short, you and posters like you, run the risk of making the game bad.

You should stop...

You really should.

 

Am I lying now?

 

Anyone who thinks that need only check post history.

[SquirmyBurrito]

For someone famous for telling others to read... You should attempt it.

 

Or you should just try truth.

 

I didn't ask for a nerf to any frame... I responded to your questions and revisionist statements.

 

Had I, you'd know... I'd start a topic about it. You'd come and post some ridiculous and acerbic witticism displaying your contempt or support for the idea. This is in keeping with the bulk of your posts. Likewise completely visible in the post history.

Am I lying?

 

You asked what frame you played was OP. I answered.

Was any of what I said a lie? Any of it? Say what you want.. Move that idea past 99% of the Loki players and they'd scream and faint.

 

In another reply you stated that Trinity needed adjusting as opposed to a nerf.

Am I lying?

 

All of this to clean up the crap you have been posting for at least a month.

You can't clean this up man... You should stop.

 

All anyone needs to do is read your history... That's it.

 

You and many others got butthurt over something nonsensical and now you won't let it go.

You ought to though.

When people come up with ideas that won't mistreat new players.. you don't support that.  You didn't get what you wanted so now it's "all or nothing".

 

You have to be smart enough to see that this won't work as intended, but you do it anyway.

 

It's ridiculous enough that probably only 30% (generous estimate) of the playerbase actually follows these boards and that players like you are constantly trying to set policy for them.

 

In short, you and posters like you, run the risk of making the game bad.

You should stop...

You really should.

 

Am I lying now?

 

Anyone who thinks that need only check post history.

 

Yes, you are lying. You blatantly lied when you said you didn't say a frame needed to be nerfed. Don't tell me I need to read, it clearly says it in your post (which I quoted below). 

 

Yes, you lied. Stop asking me if you lied. I don't like having to repeat myself. Do not claim to know how I would respond to a cry for a nerf. You just called for a nerf and a change to Loki, I actually supported both. Stop bringing up my previous posts. Either directly quote something or stop. 

 

IMO, yes. I disagree with the idea that Loki is overpowered. Yes, and telling 99% of any group of fans of any of the frames that you think their frame needs to be nerfed and they will respond negatively.

 

I don't know, how about you direct quote where I said that instead of expecting me to remember everything I've ever posted on these forums.

 

Provide direct quotes or stop making claims about my previous posts.

 

I didn't get butthurt. Next.

 

Actually, what I find ridiculous is that you're ranting about this, yet not providing any proof for your claims. That is to say, you're wasting my time.

 

That's your opinion. I think players like you (who support imbalance to one degree or another) are what makes this game bad and possibly worse.

No U.

 

Yes, you are lying. You've made a few incorrect claims already.

 

Provide direct quotes and let them do the talking.

 

Trinity, likewise, is OP and needs to be nerfed.... Not adjusted... Nerfed. Everyone can see that but the folks who main her.

Got some bias showing there?

 

You clearly said Trinity needed to be nerfed.

 

Edit: Almost forgot. Lrn2Read.

Edited March 27, 2014 by SquirmyBurrito

[(PSN)Nilphelan]

DE could make the Rhino faster, pls pls pls pls pls pls pls pls (sarcasm, but really it could be a bit faster)

 

To be honest though if I didn't run a fast rhino on low level planets in the PS4, so many new players will die and log out causing me to host migrate all over again. (This is mainly due to the new players not communicating or following the players that are carrying them throughout the match causing their frustrating deaths & log outs of Warframe.)

 

On a good day I probably save about a dozen or two lives a day on lower level planets (survivals); all thanks to the fast rhino warframe.

 

I understand the view point of 'wow he beat me to the exit and can take damage'(sarcasm again).. but there are other aspects of the game were Loki comes in clutch.

 

Also side note nothing to do with the Rhino helm stats, but with Stamina & sprinting.. that whole mechanic needs to be looked at again .. just saying

Edited March 27, 2014 by (PS4)Nilphelan

[MirageKnight]

That's like saying Ash is a support frame because...

 

Shuriken allows him to aid his teammates by killing things.

 

Teleport allows him to quickly reach downed teammates so he can 

 

Use Smoke Screen to revive them without having to worry about enemies disrupting him

 

And smokescreen helps his teammates by killing enemies, thus lessening their work load.

 

I brought up Rhino being an important and valuable support 'frame to defend my point that Rhino needs an inherent speed buff. Nothing more. Yet you decide to go off on a tangent and argue with me about what defines a support frame...seriously?

 

You know what? Just stop arguing semantics. Some of us are getting really sick of this and IMO it contributes little if anything to the discussion. All you're doing is bogging this discussion down with crap that has little to do with the subject matter at hand. Like your walls of text arguing about what constitutes ingame currency and whether a certain helmet was bought with real money or not. Which has NOTHING to do with the topic at hand.

 

Frankly I'm thinking that semantics are the only thing you have to argue with.

[Sedant]

Well consider rhino's main role...reviving... Wouldnt you want him to be fast? Most of the games I've played have been pub and yes I noticed douchy rhino fanboys in particular, but in an organized game, rhino's revival skills are better than valkyr's just b.c of his increased speed+ability to take a tiny bit more damage than normal frames(other than valkyr and trinity)

 

 He is also boss at running off alone and activating life supports in high end survivals like ODS while the rest of the group focuses on murderizing stuff.

[MirageKnight]

 He is also boss at running off alone and activating life supports in high end survivals like ODS while the rest of the group focuses on murderizing stuff.

 

That's something I tend to do a lot of as Rhino - aside from charging to the rescue. For that, once again, he needs speed. Until Rhino's speed is fixed, I'm going to continue using Vanguard for what it is - a valuable tool.

Edited March 27, 2014 by MirageKnight

[Rakosta_Kai]

>Edited for brevity<

4 : Trinity should be nerfed

Not NERF nerfed, but she needs a re-work of her abilities. Agreed.

 

This needs to be added to the OP. 

 That's you, right? This is you supporting this statement right?

 

>snip<

 

Trinity, likewise, is OP and needs to be nerfed.... Not adjusted... Nerfed. Everyone can see that but the folks who main her.

Got some bias showing there?

 

 

 

I don't run around asking for nerfs, because I'm not blind.

People in glass houses, etc...

Anyone can look at my post history and see this.

You can't say the same...

Apply revisionist history to this thread all you want... All anyone has to do is look at the history of your posts.

My reply to this....

Now to prove that point.. Find where I have posted a request to have a frame nerfed...

You won't, because I haven't.

These are statements in reply to your own statements and revisionist commentary.

When you name something, name it correctly.

 

As I noted before, If I felt something needed to be nerfed. I'd post a topic about it instead of that thing you do.

 

 

>snip<

 

Trinity needs a re-work. I hope that bias question wasn't aimed at me, because I don't main her. I main Loki.

 

What Jedi mind tricks?

 

You just said Trinity needs a nerf.

Stop.

You just asked for a nerf to two frames, so you can't say that.

Looking at my post history reveals my support for a few nerfs, and my opposition to a few nerfs. I do not support any and every nerf that I see suggested.

Your hypocrisy is making me uncomfortable. Could you try to cover it up a bit better?

Your reply to my statement.

Did I?

Or did I reply to your assertion that Trinity didn't need a nerf?

 

>snip<

 

I didn't ask for a nerf to any frame... I responded to your questions and revisionist statements.

 

Had I, you'd know... I'd start a topic about it. You'd come and post some ridiculous and acerbic witticism displaying your contempt or support for the idea. This is in keeping with the bulk of your posts. Likewise completely visible in the post history.

Am I lying?

 

You asked what frame you played was OP. I answered.

Was any of what I said a lie? Any of it? Say what you want.. Move that idea past 99% of the Loki players and they'd scream and faint.

 

In another reply you stated that Trinity needed adjusting as opposed to a nerf.

Am I lying?

 

>snip<

 

Conveniently left that part out didn't you...

Get your story straight...

Or, at the very least, remember what you say.

 

Can't say I missed on the ridiculous and acerbic witticism either can you?

 

 

 

The argument you have made to have all stats removed is the childish move of a group who didn't get their way hidden in a plea to keep from mistreating new members. Which is sad. You really should stop.

The argument is likewise foolish as it runs the risk of alienating players who paid for those helmets with those stats... But people like you give no thought to that either.

Scorched Earth

 

Tell ya what... You go back to picking on the less informed and younger members of the forums with those ridiculous witticisms and being the internet tough-guy and don't ever reply to another one of my statements.

I outclass you.

While you're doing that, Loki can continue to triple dip from either power efficiency or range. And you can continue to whine about how Rhino is OP because he runs fast now.

I'll continue to giggle at the idiocy of that argument.

Edited April 28, 2014 by [DE]Drew
Edited to comply with the community rules

[SquirmyBurrito]

I brought up Rhino being an important and valuable support 'frame to defend my point that Rhino needs an inherent speed buff. Nothing more. Yet you decide to go off on a tangent and argue with me about what defines a support frame...seriously?

 

You know what? Just stop arguing semantics. Some of us are getting really sick of this and IMO it contributes little if anything to the discussion. All you're doing is bogging this discussion down with crap that has little to do with the subject matter at hand. Like your walls of text arguing about what constitutes ingame currency and whether a certain helmet was bought with real money or not. Which has NOTHING to do with the topic at hand.

 

Frankly I'm thinking that semantics are the only thing you have to argue with.

 

You thought Rhino is a support frame, I clearly disagreed. If you don't like people disagreeing with you, the internet is not the place for you to be.

No, I didn't argue the definition. I just showed how using your method, any frame could be considered a support frame. Little edit here: It just occurred to me that this is actually a good thing. It means that all frames have some sort of synergistic quality. Even if that quality is just killing things so they don't kill your teammates.

 

Defining whether or not money was spent directly or indirectly on an item is important, legally speaking. I never argued about what counts as 'ingame currency'. I did say that platinum was a commodity not a currency. You know what is really off topic? People acting as if DE has to refund their money if DE decides to change an item, and then continuing on for several posts about the EULA, Terms of Use, and Open Beta Agreement.

 

If you really think that, you've missed 99% of my posts.

 

 That's you, right? This is you supporting this statement right?

 

My reply to this....

Now to prove that point.. Find where I have posted a request to have a frame nerfed...

You won't, because I haven't.

These are statements in reply to your own statements and revisionist commentary.

When you name something, name it correctly.

 

As I noted before, If I felt something needed to be nerfed. I'd post a topic about it instead of that thing you do.

 

 

Your reply to my statement.

Did I?

Or did I reply to your assertion that Trinity didn't need a nerf?

 

 

Conveniently left that part out didn't you...

Get your story straight...

Or, at the very least, remember what you say.

 

Can't say I missed on the ridiculous and acerbic witticism either can you?

Learn2read?!?!... Honestly...

 

As of this point, you look both childish and foolish.

The argument you have made to have all stats removed is the childish move of a group who didn't get their way hidden in a plea to keep from mistreating new members. Which is sad. You really should stop.

The argument is likewise foolish as it runs the risk of alienating players who paid for those helmets with those stats... But people like you give no thought to that either.

Scorched Earth

 

Tell ya what... You go back to picking on the less informed and younger members of the forums with those ridiculous witticisms and being the internet tough-guy and don't ever reply to another one of my statements.

I outclass you.

While you're doing that, Loki can continue to triple dip from either power efficiency or range. And you can continue to whine about how Rhino is OP because he runs fast now.

I'll continue to giggle at the idiocy of that argument.

 

Yes, that is my post.

 

Trinity, likewise, is OP and needs to be nerfed.... Not adjusted... Nerfed. Everyone can see that but the folks who main her.

Got some bias showing there?

 

There you go. I underlined the portion that you asked for. I wont find it? I believe I just did.

 

I think not, you're the one claiming you never said anything despite having your post quoted and shoved in your face.

 

Yes, you did. 

No, because I never made that assertion. I agreed with you by saying she needed a re-work. 

I didn't 'conveniently' leave anything out.

I remember exactly what I said in that post.

 

When I say 'Lrn2[something]' I have a reason. That reason usually comes down to another poster either not reading portions of my post, or obviously not comprehending it. But the subject doesn't have to be one of my posts.

 

In your opinion.

And now you're just misrepresenting our argument. What? You couldn't 'beat' us in a debate so you decided to start flinging insults at us?

Read the open beta agreement. Line 4. Spending platinum on an item doesn't suddenly exempt that object from going under the knife. There were people who bought Rhino for platinum, and his Iron Skin has had numerous re-works. The same thing applies to other frames (frost being a recent example).

 

And now you've resorted to claiming you're better than me. Prove it in a debate or stay on the side lines.

If you had actually been paying attention you'd know that the request for a complete stat remove all all helmets doesn't just affect Vanguard. That would also affect Swindle and Essence. Your attempt at implying I'm being bias in my request is a failure.

I never said Rhino was OP.

 

So, to summarize this:

 

-You've called me/us childish.

-Claimed you're 'above me'.

-Claimed that Trinity needs to be nerfed.

  -Denied saying that.

-Tried to turn this into something pertaining purely to Rhino and Vanguard.

-Misrepresented our/my argument.

-Implied a bias exists in my call for a helmet stat purge.

 

Now, how about you actually contribute something to the main discussion. Yes, yes we all know how smart and amazing you are. You don't need to continue this stupidityconversation. 

Edited March 28, 2014 by SquirmyBurrito

[Cwierz]

They need to just remove the stats completely on all helments and stop catering to applease people that alerady own it. Just stick to their guns, it's a Beta and things have to get balanced. Like some have said before each frame has its weak/strong points, be it speed, shields, stamina, energy, hp, or armor. So why give the slowest frame insane mobility over everthing else?. Rhino has an amazing kit that allows him to tank, CC, and team Buff. With the increased mobility its just to much. There is no cause and effect that challanges people for diversity. I mean really, why play anything else?. The game begins to lose its variety of team play only to have the same frames in every map. This is what makes it upsetting, this is what needs to change, and this is the main reason people complain. The "mods" should alleviate some of this but still have game changing elements/playstyle. Not a piece of cosmetic gear.

 

I know there are a lot more changes and balance fixes still coming. But I do hope things like this get address and not brushed off.

Somebody give this man a @(*()&#036; cookie.

This is pretty much what everybody else is saying, but very nicely worded and phrased.

Have a +1

[kaboomonme]

To all the people that are bringing in the new excuse of "Rhino is best reviver thus he needs speed".

You are already contradicting those that are saying "Rhino is not a Tank, he is support".

I don't disagree with Rhino being a VERY good support. He is. But what does he do when he's reviving his teammates?
Take damage for them so that he can revive them safely : A.K.A Tanking

Similarly, Trinity can be considered support as well, for those that are bring "Trinity is a better tank" into play, for the sake of... I don't know why.

She can also negate damage for teammates, effectively preventing them from going down. Or she can negate damage for herself, while reviving teammates, except of the danger of being knocked down while doing so.

I know you guys will bring ANYTHING in as an excuse to keep your Rhino 3fast6furious, but please see the big picture. I'm begging you.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

To those that are also saying "Rhino needs the speed to revive teammates".
 

Well said. This underscores Rhino's role as a true support frame. All his skills revolve around either directly aiding other Tenno teammates or allowing him to aid them.

 

Charge: Allows Rhino to quickly smash through a wall of enemies to reach a squad mate or squad mates so he can...

 

Stomp: Kill or at least stun lock said enemies to give him time to revive any fallen squad mates or give other players more time to do what they need to do - escape, counter attack, recharge, reload and so on.

 

Roar: AoE damage buff. The effects are minor really, but any buff to damage for all nearby squad mates is welcome.

 

Iron Skin: A nice damage soak that synergizes well with his ability to break through and aid others. It buys Rhino the time he needs to get in, stomp, and revive fallen allies in a fierce fire-fight. In addition, it allows him to draw fire meant for other players.

 

 

So he is most definitely a support 'frame. As a support 'frame he's no good to the rest of the team if he can't keep up with said team. That said, decent speed is essential to allowing Rhino players to do their job. This is why Vanguard is a practically a must have - it addresses a very real problem, that of Rhino's inherent inability to keep up with the rest of a team - which makes it frustrating and not fun to play for some people.This is why I feel his base speed needs to be buffed to match that of Excal. I'm completely fine with having stats yanked from helms. Just make the minimum movement speed of Rhino (and Sayrn and Frost for that matter) on par with the majority of all the other 'frames out there.

This gentleman has already shown the tools of the trade that Rhino has, and exactly WHY he is such a good reviver. 

Does movespeed make you revive downed teammates faster? No, I don't believe so. In what situation will you need speed then?

"To reach a teammate in time". "So you can catch up with your teammates". See, these are all negligible situations in a game that is... marketed as a co-op game. 

Your team should not rush ahead of you. You should not rush ahead of your teammates. If they go down too far away from you, either you strayed too far of the group, or they strayed too far from you. THIS SHOULDN'T EVEN BE AN ISSUE.

A co-op game encourages a team to stick together and cover each others strengths and weaknesses, not give you free passes on having terrible teamwork. If the Rhino is doing his job, and he is constantly around his teammates, I don't see the need for movement speed ro revive them when they are literally in the next room.
 

 

-pararaph of attempted personal attacks, false accusations, childish jabs, and attempts to raise own self esteem-

 

You sicken me. This thread is for discussion, not sad attempts at trolling.

[ajwalker65]

Your team should not rush ahead of you. You should not rush ahead of your teammates. If they go down too far away from you, either you strayed too far of the group, or they strayed too far from you. THIS SHOULDN'T EVEN BE AN ISSUE.

A co-op game encourages a team to stick together and cover each others strengths and weaknesses, not give you free passes on having terrible teamwork. If the Rhino is doing his job, and he is constantly around his teammates, I don't see the need for movement speed ro revive them when they are literally in the next room.

After stepping away from this thread for a bit, I still don't understand why people are still arguing over it. 

 

While I think it was extremely alarmist to say one thing one has "ruined" Rhino, the part of what you said above is not what typically happens in game.

 

This game is filled with people who don't quite get the concept of "co-op" and charge ahead/speed then stand there and rudely heckle/insult anyone who doesn't make it to extraction the same time they do. Call them speedsters, rushers, whatever name, but this game is filled with them. I would say seeing who can have the fastest speed build is almost like a badge of honor in Warframe.

 

I wouldn't be in favor of DE "taking away" something I already purchased. They may do it anyway, but I wouldn't be happy about it.

 

I fail to see why the discussion is being sandwiched in with "fairness" issues for any player that comes to the game after DE does whatever they are going to do.

 

If new players don't start playing the game this week, they don't get the Dex Furis. Will the fairness brigade start a thread in a month saying it's not fair they can't get the Dex Furis? No, if you weren't there to get something, you weren't there to get it. If you weren't there to get tickets to a concert and it sold out, would you then say that is not fair?

 

If you are going to use the "fairness" argument, it could, and should, apply to anything done, or any item offered, in game in the last year for any new player that starts playing tomorrow. And that would be ludicrous.

 

I think the whole "fairness" issue sandwiched into this topic is disingenuous and merely trying to make an emotional appeal over an in game item that hasn't "ruined" anything besides how some people "see/feel" the Rhino Warframe should be.

Edited March 28, 2014 by ajwalker65

[kaboomonme]

After stepping away from this thread for a bit, I still don't understand why people are still arguing over it. 

 

While I think it was extremely alarmist to say one thing one has "ruined" Rhino, the part of what you said above is not what typically happens in game.

 

This game is filled with people who don't quite get the concept of "co-op" and charge ahead/speed then stand there and rudely heckle/insult anyone who doesn't make it to extraction the same time they do. Call them speedsters, rushers, whatever name, but this game is filled with them. I would say seeing who can have the fastest speed build is almost like a badge of honor in Warframe.

 

I wouldn't be in favor of DE "taking away" something I already purchased. They may do it anyway, but I wouldn't be happy about it.

 

I fail to see why the discussion is being sandwiched in with "fairness" issues for any player that comes to the game after DE does whatever they are going to do.

 

If new players don't start playing the game this week, they don't get the Dex Furis. Will the fairness brigade start a thread in a month saying it's not fair they can't get the Dex Furis? No, if you weren't there to get something, you weren't there to get it. If you weren't there to get tickets to a concert and it sold out, would you then say that is not fair?

 

If you are going to use the "fairness" argument, it could, and should, apply to anything done, or any item offered, in game in the last year for any new player that starts playing tomorrow. And that would be ludicrous.

 

I think the whole "fairness" issue sandwiched into this topic is disingenuous and merely trying to make an emotional appeal over an in game item that hasn't "ruined" anything besides how some people "see/feel" the Rhino Warframe should be.

 

Oh but you see, fairness is warped in that sense. How many threads have been asking for the Vandals and the Founder's gear to be re-released? Give it some time, and threads will pop-up with people asking for the Dex Furis because they have missed it.

And on your topic of fairness : 

Dex Furis is a decent secondaries, but there are a LOT of secondaries, and a lot of them perform equally or better than the Dex Furis. Though it still stands that the Dex Furis is a slightly more unique variant with different stats, so the fact that other people that come later won't get it is a shame. It would have been better off being an Afuris skin, though that would limit the changes they could do to it as well.

The Vanguard helmet is a free speed boost. Any other helmet after that will not have that free speed boost. There are NO alternatives to what the Vanguard helmet can provide to a player that any other helmet or loadout can. 

Players that come later will be at a disadvantage no matter what. There's no "alternative". Older Vanguard helmet wearing players will always have a free advantage over newer players. A newer player's Rhino, no matter how he builds it, will never be on par with a Vet player's build. Because of one. Cosmetic. Helmet.

​Please understand.

---------------------------------------------------------------

Also, on your topic of "co-op" : the people I play with are douchey, so we should just go with it and be even douchier? Is that what this is about?

The design of the game is kind of flawed in the sense that it doesn't directly promote Co-op, and as human nature dictates, most people are just going to go with what benefits themselves the most. The game doesn't have that push to encourage player's to engage in co-operation. Something that needs to be fixed sooner or later. If we were to play the blame game, everyone is at fault.

DE does try new things every once in a while to attempt to fix this. The methods aren't always right, and the execution isn't always the best. The backlash from the player's that enjoy this "rushing" playstyle even strongly voice out against any changes to be made to discourage rushing. This makes it even harder for DE to try to change this. Just like what is happening now. "The game is already like this anyways, so now that I'm used to it, DE isn't allowed to touch it".

I'm hoping this will all change in all due time, but it doesn't mean everyone should just attempt to out-#&#036;&amp;(% each other.