How Vanguard Helmet Ruined Rhino

[Riasiru]

The tried to do this before with the stamina patch, and rhino could sprint like 3-5 meters before all stamina was consumed. This type of change would only work if they made all speed of frames 1 and separated the movement speed from sprint speed. Their experiment made all wall running next to imposable to do with Rhino, as he was a fat-blob that couldn't get off the ground to climb a wall without stamina mods.

You didn't quite hear me out then. When I said that the higher the sprint speed was the higher the stamina consumption would be, I did not me the opposite of that. Rhino has a sprint speed of 0.9 by default. With 80 stamina he can run longer than Loki who has a sprint speed of 1.25 and a matching stamina total of 80. To repeat... Higher speed, higher stamina consumption. Running faster means running through your stamina... Faster. 

[LazyKnight]

You didn't quite hear me out then.

What I said about their experiment was in reference to what they did, and not about what you said.

 

You want the distance traveled to be the same, but the speed traveled for said distance to be based on weight, right? Or are you saying, you want the total distance traveled reduced by the speed at which it was traveled, so by increasing speed reducing distance one can sprint?

 

The latter would end up with a similar problem as that old stamina experiment they did, just breaking different warframes.

Edited March 28, 2014 by LazyKnight

[ajwalker65]

Oh but you see, fairness is warped in that sense. How many threads have been asking for the Vandals and the Founder's gear to be re-released? Give it some time, and threads will pop-up with people asking for the Dex Furis because they have missed it.

And on your topic of fairness : 

Dex Furis is a decent secondaries, but there are a LOT of secondaries, and a lot of them perform equally or better than the Dex Furis. Though it still stands that the Dex Furis is a slightly more unique variant with different stats, so the fact that other people that come later won't get it is a shame. It would have been better off being an Afuris skin, though that would limit the changes they could do to it as well.

The Vanguard helmet is a free speed boost. Any other helmet after that will not have that free speed boost. There are NO alternatives to what the Vanguard helmet can provide to a player that any other helmet or loadout can. 

Players that come later will be at a disadvantage no matter what. There's no "alternative". Older Vanguard helmet wearing players will always have a free advantage over newer players. A newer player's Rhino, no matter how he builds it, will never be on par with a Vet player's build. Because of one. Cosmetic. Helmet.

​Please understand.

---------------------------------------------------------------

Also, on your topic of "co-op" : the people I play with are douchey, so we should just go with it and be even douchier? Is that what this is about?

The design of the game is kind of flawed in the sense that it doesn't directly promote Co-op, and as human nature dictates, most people are just going to go with what benefits themselves the most. The game doesn't have that push to encourage player's to engage in co-operation. Something that needs to be fixed sooner or later. If we were to play the blame game, everyone is at fault.

DE does try new things every once in a while to attempt to fix this. The methods aren't always right, and the execution isn't always the best. The backlash from the player's that enjoy this "rushing" playstyle even strongly voice out against any changes to be made to discourage rushing. This makes it even harder for DE to try to change this. Just like what is happening now. "The game is already like this anyways, so now that I'm used to it, DE isn't allowed to touch it".

I'm hoping this will all change in all due time, but it doesn't mean everyone should just attempt to out-#$&(% each other. 

 

Yes, there are threads/topics on previous items released in Warframe and I'm not in favor of that either. I wasn't around for the Founders' pack so I will never get Excal Prime. I'm mature enough to understand i can't have what I wasn't here to get.

 

Makes me wonder about the folks filling those threads begging DE about how it's not fair they can't have "X" when they weren't even around when "X" was available. You. Weren't. Here. Back. Then.

 

It should really be that simple.

 

And I don't see the Vanguard helmet as some overwhelming thing that puts any player who has it "on top" of everyone else, far from it. It's a better looking helmet than the stock with a added bonus of a speed bump. I don't think Warframe is going to introduce sprint races or the 100 meter dash so what difference does it make if my Rhino is faster than their Rhino? Or that Loki outspeeds just about everyone? Why is that supposed to dampen my "fun" in game?

 

Rhino isn't even my favorite Warframe and only gets used when I know, going in, I need his particular skill set. I don't see him as a "tank," he's one of several Warframes I've built and I use them all interchangeably as the mood or mission dictates. He might be the right "tool" for the job one day, but completely wrong the next. I think there is plenty of diversity within the frames of Warframe that everyone can build and play what they like or what they need. What does it matter to me if your favorite frame is Loki but mine is Mag? Moreover, what do I care if you have one helmet over another? If you are running the stock gear over all Prime gear? Aren't I still having fun playing which frame I want to play? YES

 

As I said several posts ago, this is a game, that's all, not real life. Whether you have an item or not should not make me lose sleep over it. And I have yet to see anything "ruin" anything in Warframe, the day that happens, is the day I stop playing. (Like this whole Melee 2.0 thing has me really worried, that has the potential to "ruin" things. But I'll wait to see.)

 

---

 

And I'm not saying anyone should be "douchey" all I was noting is the game, as it stands now, with no real methodology for keeping co-op front and center, has devolved into: rush ahead to the final objective, do that, rush back to extraction, then heckle and insult any player(s) not as fast. 

 

That is largely Warframe as it stands now. Is it right? No, but that's the reality.

 

What attracted me to the game was "co-op," however, unless you are in a clan of like minded people, it's rush, rush, rush, be the first to extraction, then insult slower players.

 

So, yes, the "co-op" aspect of the game is very flawed in Warframe. Arc lights and traps weren't the solution, but creating a game that requires teams to stay together otherwise you will individually get obliterated might be the direction to have true "co-op".

Edited March 28, 2014 by ajwalker65

[kaboomonme]

-snip-

Well.. most of the points you brought up, I can agree with at least. I still think that fast forward a few months, threads like these will pop up again, made by entitled players with the "Why do they have something that I don't?" mentality.

Let's hope the game has evolved far beyond this point by then.

 

[Rakosta_Kai]

 

You sicken me. This thread is for discussion, not sad attempts at trolling.

 

I you are going to quote me... Then quote me.

Don't apply your sad, warped level of understanding into a paraphrase of what I say.

 

You can look for trolling posts from me and won't find them.

That said, I can be quite strident to posters who are acerbic or rude though...

 

You want to know what sickens me?

 

People who seek to make decisions for others based on their own personal view of how they think things "should be".

 

It's arrogant...

It's foolish...

It's selfish...

 

You are endeavoring to influence a decision you like couched in the terms of being "good for everyone".

How very noble of you...

In truth, the idea is really only at everyone else's expense.

It's cool if you want statless helmets. Make your helmets statless when the option becomes available.

 

Stop trying to make that decision for others though.

 

That's the crux of the issue.

 

Call me a troll if you want... But you can't call me wrong.

 

You and your cohorts have neither the ability nor the right to second guess the people who design and developed the damn game.

Stop acting like you do...

 

Unless you personally plan to recompense players who bought these helmets,... You need to silence yourself.

 

You are likely not a game developer. If you are, you aren't this game's developer.

The bulk of the players posting on this topic aren't developers for online games either.

You have no concept of balance and even less concept of the game's vision.

 

I don't either... But the difference is, I don't pretend to.

 

TL;DR:  You, and all your little buddies, need to stop second guessing experts, play the game, and stfu. xD

 

Again...You can say I'm trolling you, but you can't say I'm wrong.

[kaboomonme]

-snip-

I actually typed out a reply, but then realized you contradict yourself in every other post.

I really need to stop being an idiot and getting trolled relentlessly... *sigh*

[SquirmyBurrito]

You want to know what sickens me?

 

People who seek to make decisions for others based on their own personal view of how they think things "should be".

 

So you hate every game developer?

 

Call me a troll if you want... But you can't call me wrong.

 

You're wrong.

[Rakosta_Kai]

I actually typed out a reply, but then realized you contradict yourself in every other post.

I really need to stop being an idiot and getting trolled relentlessly... *sigh*

Can you provide proofs to that statement?

No?

Ok...

 

Like I said... You can call me a troll (my post history will disprove that in seconds to anyone interested in looking...), but you can't say I'm wrong.

Had you been interested in having a civil debate, you'd have addressed me civilly. You did not.

 

But to address you with civility... A consideration you have not lent to me yet.

 

Your arguments are flawed. They discount some very important things.

1. Players purchased these helmets with money. The worst complaints imaginable are valid complaints regarding money.

2. DE is not going to want to have to refund those monies.

3. DE is a fledgling in this market. They have a reputation to maintain and an act of this type will damage it.

Why? Actions indicate trends. It's how I knew that DE would do something about the Helmets because players complained about Vanguard.

4. The main case for your argument is nullified with a Rush mod. Which Rhino has access to merely by removing +Duration or Charge.

If you were really going to make a cogent argument you'd have pointed at Loki as he has access to 2 gameplay altering helmets which allows him to triple stack for either efficiency or range.

[SquirmyBurrito]

Your arguments are flawed. They discount some very important things.

1. Players purchased these helmets with money. The worst complaints imaginable are valid complaints regarding money.

2. DE is not going to want to have to refund those monies.

3. DE is a fledgling in this market. They have a reputation to maintain and an act of this type will damage it.

Why? Actions indicate trends. It's how I knew that DE would do something about the Helmets because players complained about Vanguard.

4. The main case for your argument is nullified with a Rush mod. Which Rhino has access to merely by removing +Duration or Charge.

If you were really going to make a cogent argument you'd have pointed at Loki as he has access to 2 gameplay altering helmets which allows him to triple stack for either efficiency or range.

 

1. Money spent is irrelevant.

2. DE doesn't have to refund players for changing items. Read Line 4 of the Open Beta Agreement.

3. I doubt it. When they nerfed Iron Skin they still did pretty well. 

4. Incorrect. The use of a Rush mod has a clear drawback. It takes up a spot that could be used by something else. Its a sacrifice. And every frame has access to that mod, none are excluded.

Loki isn't the only frame with gameplay altering helmet stats. But I (and many others) support the removal of ALL helmet stats. Not just vanguard's.

[Noobstein]

Dear DE.

I'm making a list of things I'm jealous of. Please stand by and prepare to nerf them. Thank you.

[kaboomonme]

These scorched earth tactics are silly... You really think that DE is going to alienate the entirety of it's existing playerbase to satisfy the selfish whims of 1% of you?

>Making judgements on general consensus without basis

 

The ridiculous need to complain about anything without any thought given to other players will be a cautionary tale.

>Constantly saying thought isn't given to players when it's either one party suffers or the other. In this case, you are trying to protect YOUR party, and completely disregarding the well-being of the other.

Now it's, "It's not fair to the new players!!!!" ...Even though you caused the current debacle.

Here, you acknowledge it is not fair to newer players, but blame it on... who?

Yet beforehand, you say no thought was given to other players.

You may commence your descent from that chair...

>attempting to demerit people stating points of discussion by accusing them of arrogance

Take the Jedi Mind tricks elsewhere, bub... Not working.

>More unrelated accusations

Trinity, likewise, is OP and needs to be nerfed.... Not adjusted... Nerfed.

>Asking for nerf

I don't run around asking for nerfs, because I'm not blind.

>Denying said call for nerf

Tell ya what... I'd love to see Radial Disarm given a limited duration and Invisibility's duration lowered to Ash's level to give Loki the same starting stats as Ash. Then let's see how master that race is then.

>Another call for nerf (Not taking into account the balance, because this call for nerf is actually quite reasonable too)

I didn't ask for a nerf to any frame... I responded to your questions and revisionist statements.

>Repeating something twice doesn't make it true

Am I lying?

Quite a bit, yes.

When people come up with ideas that won't mistreat new players.. you don't support that.

This statement came about... how? Based on what? More accusations.

You have to be smart enough to see that this won't work as intended, but you do it anyway.

Resorting to personal attacks. More accusations.

 

It's ridiculous enough that probably only 30% (generous estimate) of the playerbase actually follows these boards and that players like you are constantly trying to set policy for them.

I take it you're the "Voice of the People" then? Assumptions without basis.

In short, you and posters like you, run the risk of making the game bad.

I don't even

 

Now to prove that point.. Find where I have posted a request to have a frame nerfed...

You won't, because I haven't.

Sigh.

 

As I noted before, If I felt something needed to be nerfed. I'd post a topic about it instead of that thing you do.

Thanks DE!

Oh wait. You're not.

Tell ya what... You go back to picking on the less informed and younger members of the forums with those ridiculous witticisms and being the internet tough-guy and don't ever reply to another one of my statements.

Not to mention the mountains of other attempted false accusations. Painful to read, and shows very apparent hypocrisy.

 

I outclass you.

I don't know where you are from, but there isn't a caste system here.

You can look for trolling posts from me and won't find them.

I find that harder and harder to believe.

People who seek to make decisions for others based on their own personal view of how they think things "should be".

^See above. Hypocrisy at its finest.

 

You and your cohorts have neither the ability nor the right to second guess the people who design and developed the damn game.

Stop acting like you do...

I apologize if any of us seem like that to you, but please do check your own actions first. 

If you don't know what "Hypocrisy" or "Hypocrite" is, Google is your friend.

Unless you personally plan to recompense players who bought these helmets,... You need to silence yourself.

Assuming you're speaking for these supposed "people", does that mean that if you get compensation, then you would let the change happen?

Typical.

(Not to offend the rest, just speaking on the same terms as this man here)

 

You have no concept of balance and even less concept of the game's vision.

Nobody has to justify themselves to the likes of someone who constantly makes accusations without basis.

Also, of course we have no concept of the game's vision. We're not DE after all.

TL;DR:  You, and all your little buddies, need to stop second guessing experts, play the game, and stfu. xD

More accusations. Moving on.

DE is a fledgling in this market. They have a reputation to maintain and an act of this type will damage it.

Directly contradicting the previous statement. Also, making decisions for DE.

2. DE is not going to want to have to refund those monies.

DE has shown in the past that they have, and if they decide to do so, will refund players. Prior to the Legendary cores fiasco, they actually did refund Platinum to players on a few occasions. Again, making false assumptions on the behalf of DE. 

If you mean directly refund money, as in CASH, then I'll just completely disregard the entire statement.

The main case for your argument is nullified with a Rush mod. Which Rhino has access to merely by removing +Duration or Charge.

Showing that you are ignorant towards the entire progression of the argument, you are avoiding any points against your claim, or you are just trolling. I'd suspect the third one.

Here.

I have to admit I did take you seriously on a few occasions. You win this one.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

EDIT : It seems you weren't actually trolling then. I apologize if I come off as rude, but my point still stands.

If you're not attempting to troll and you're actually trying to contribute to the topic, contradicting yourself and making false random accusations isn't going to help. The term "troll" is also not used as an insult or anything. If it helps :

In Internet slang, a troll (/ˈtroʊl/, /ˈtrɒl/) is a person who sows discord on the Internet by starting arguments or upsetting people,^[1] by posting inflammatory,^[2] extraneous, or off-topic messages in an online community (such as a forum, chat room, or blog), either accidentally^[3][4] or with the deliberate intent of provoking readers into an emotional response^[5] or of otherwise disrupting normal on-topic discussion.^{[6] Quoted from wikipedia}

Edited March 28, 2014 by kaboomonme

[Rakosta_Kai]

1. Money spent is irrelevant.

1A.Money spent in never irrelevant. This makes my point in regard to the arrogance being applied to this argument though.

2. DE doesn't have to refund players for changing items. Read Line 4 of the Open Beta Agreement.

2A. Very True. They also don't want the crapstorm that will result from removing stats from all the helmets. Refunding Monies is about the only way they'll avoid it.

3. I doubt it. When they nerfed Iron Skin they still did pretty well. 

3A.Nerf is not removal. Those are two entirely different things. Dev Studios that bait and switch die ugly deaths in the public eye. That is because it looks like a Bait and Switch and players complain about it.

4. Incorrect. The use of a Rush mod has a clear drawback. It takes up a spot that could be used by something else. Its a sacrifice. And every frame has access to that mod, none are excluded.

4A. I'm quite correct here... There is no drawback to adding a Rush mod other than not having space to add either a 2nd corrupt mod, +Duration, Roar, or Charge (pick one) If the Rhino has no interest in Roar or Charge they don't need duration at all. Blind Rage and Fleeting Expertise builds are quite common. I can add Rush to it without removing Charge in truth. Saying every frame has access to it makes my point though. Thank you.

Loki isn't the only frame with gameplay altering helmet stats. I did not say it was in my reply... I said it makes the most cogent argument. Loki is one of the only frames that can triple stack a game altering stat( Efficiency or Range) with either helmet or alternate combinations of the two.

But I (and many others) support the removal of ALL helmet stats. Not just vanguard's. That's awesome... But "Many" does not equal the majority who actually purchased these helmets. That's the problem. Assuming otherwise is wrong.

[Rakosta_Kai]

Here.

I have to admit I did take you seriously on a few occasions. You win this one.

http://rustledjimmies.com/

Creating Ad Hominems to distract from the actual debate does not address the actual debate.

Conveniently removing frame of reference and creating your own imaginary ones let's me know that you haven't a leg to stand on in this debate.

Likewise, the frames of reference you provided suggest you didn't actually read.

 

 

I've even given you the benefit of the doubt and actually tried to deal with you by explaining, quite clearly, some of the holes in your argument.

Instead of arguing those points, you'd rather be rude.

 

Frankly, I expected better from you and am a little disappointed with your behavior.

[SquirmyBurrito]

 

1. Money spent is irrelevant.

1A.Money spent in never irrelevant. This makes my point in regard to the arrogance being applied to this argument though.

2. DE doesn't have to refund players for changing items. Read Line 4 of the Open Beta Agreement.

2A. Very True. They also don't want the crapstorm that will result from removing stats from all the helmets. Refunding Monies is about the only way they'll avoid it.

3. I doubt it. When they nerfed Iron Skin they still did pretty well. 

3A.Nerf is not removal. Those are two entirely different things. Dev Studios that bait and switch die ugly deaths in the public eye. That is because it looks like a Bait and Switch and players complain about it.

4. Incorrect. The use of a Rush mod has a clear drawback. It takes up a spot that could be used by something else. Its a sacrifice. And every frame has access to that mod, none are excluded.

4A. I'm quite correct here... There is no drawback to adding a Rush mod other than not having space to add either a 2nd corrupt mod, +Duration, Roar, or Charge (pick one) If the Rhino has no interest in Roar or Charge they don't need duration at all. Blind Rage and Fleeting Expertise builds are quite common. I can add Rush to it without removing Charge in truth. Saying every frame has access to it makes my point though. Thank you.

Loki isn't the only frame with gameplay altering helmet stats. I did not say it was in my reply... I said it makes the most cogent argument. Loki is one of the only frames that can triple stack a game altering stat( Efficiency or Range) with either helmet or alternate combinations of the two.

But I (and many others) support the removal of ALL helmet stats. Not just vanguard's. That's awesome... But "Many" does not equal the majority who actually purchased these helmets. That's the problem. Assuming otherwise is wrong.

 

 

1. Line 4 of the Open Beta Agreement. Money is irrelevant.

2. Or, they could do what they have always done... Just fixed things and done their best to handle the fall-out. The removal of stats from helmets would not be the first total removal they have done. Refunding money (which is not required of them) would only further fuel player feelings of entitlement. This last bit was my speculation (the underlined bit).

3. It was a total rework of Iron Skin. Same goes for Ember's skills. Overheat was completely removed. No money was refunded (to my knowledge). The removal of stats does not fit that description. This game is in beta, everything is subject to change. This logically includes the status of stats on helmets.

 

bait-and-switch

noun

1.

the action (generally illegal) of advertising goods that are an apparent bargain, with the intention of substituting inferior or more expensive goods.

 

4. You're incorrect. That sacrifice of a mod slot is a HUGE drawback. It also takes up mod point. Please, explain how Rush being accessible to every frame makes your point. By one of the only I assume you're ignoring Banshee, Ember, Excalibur, Frost, Mag, Nyx, and Volt? If Energy capacity counts as a game altering stat the list grows even larger. That's 44% of all the frames. Can you provide citation for where you're getting your numbers? I ask because you seem to adore appealing to the majority. Whether or not people spend platinum on these helmets does not matter. Anything that can be acquired for plat has already been bought by at least one person. BUT that does not excuse it from being changed, tweaked, or flat out removed by DE. The game is in open beta and everything is subject to change. 

 

A bit of extra information: The majority of Rhino Players didn't want to see Iron Skin get nerfed. DE did it anyway.

 

 

Creating Ad Hominems to distract from the actual debate does not address the actual debate.

Conveniently removing frame of reference and creating your own imaginary ones let's me know that you haven't a leg to stand on in this debate.

Likewise, the frames of reference you provided suggest you didn't actually read.

 

 

I've even given you the benefit of the doubt and actually tried to deal with you by explaining, quite clearly, some of the holes in your argument.

Instead of arguing those points, you'd rather be rude.

 

Frankly, I expected better from you and am a little disappointed with your behavior.

 

The hypocrisy burns.

 

I'm starting to have trouble taking you seriously.  

Edited March 28, 2014 by SquirmyBurrito

[kaboomonme]

Creating Ad Hominems to distract from the actual debate does not address the actual debate.

Conveniently removing frame of reference and creating your own imaginary ones let's me know that you haven't a leg to stand on in this debate.

Likewise, the frames of reference you provided suggest you didn't actually read.

 

I've even given you the benefit of the doubt and actually tried to deal with you by explaining, quite clearly, some of the holes in your argument.

Instead of arguing those points, you'd rather be rude.

 

Frankly, I expected better from you and am a little disappointed with your behavior.

Well now this seems a little more appropriate. No more random personal attacks and irrelevant accusations. Even though the context is still questionable.

If you are going to discuss this seriously, then go ahead. No more bs. Though most of the important points have already been made somewhere in this 17 page thread.

On the off chance that this is still trolling, if you're going to screencap this and post it somewhere "lel look at the fgts I trolled" then go ahead, couldn't care less.

[DeusModum]

While i do agree that the Vanguard helmet kinda takes away rhino's only handicap, i dont think they necessarily need to force remove the stats off them. Players should be able to use them freely if they got it like that. It only really effects the player playing Rhino. As a PvE it shouldnt be all about your individual stats in a mission.

 

As Rhino is my mainframe, I myself dont use the Vanguard helmet. Why? cause i like Thrakk helmets aesthetics better. So i would have no problem taking up DE's offer on using the blueprint that removes stats. There are others like me.

[Rakosta_Kai]

Well now this seems a little more appropriate. No more random personal attacks and irrelevant accusations. Even though the context is still questionable.

If you are going to discuss this seriously, then go ahead. No more bs. Though most of the important points have already been made somewhere in this 17 page thread.

On the off chance that this is still trolling, if you're going to screencap this and post it somewhere "lel look at the fgts I trolled" then go ahead, couldn't care less.

I'd remind you that I didn't attack you... You attacked me.

I treat Squirmy like what he is... a Troll.

I've said numerous times I'm not trolling and if you have need to confirm that, go check my post history.

Likewise, I haven't contradicted myself if it helps. Frame of reference is important. Ensuring that what is said is what is read is also important.

 

I can only reasonably assume that you missed my post with those flaws to your argument so I posted it below.

Squirmy's arguments for them are all bad and/or ill-informed. So I wouldn't bother using them.

I purposely didn't bother replying to his last set as it basically just repeated what I had already answered. I wouldn't bother using those either.

 

Can you provide proofs to that statement?

No?

Ok...

 

Like I said... You can call me a troll (my post history will disprove that in seconds to anyone interested in looking...), but you can't say I'm wrong.

Had you been interested in having a civil debate, you'd have addressed me civilly. You did not.

 

But to address you with civility... A consideration you have not lent to me yet.

 

Your arguments are flawed. They discount some very important things.

1. Players purchased these helmets with money. The worst complaints imaginable are valid complaints regarding money.

2. DE is not going to want to have to refund those monies.

3. DE is a fledgling in this market. They have a reputation to maintain and an act of this type will damage it.

Why? Actions indicate trends. It's how I knew that DE would do something about the Helmets because players complained about Vanguard.

4. The main case for your argument is nullified with a Rush mod. Which Rhino has access to merely by removing +Duration or Charge.

If you were really going to make a cogent argument you'd have pointed at Loki as he has access to 2 gameplay altering helmets which allows him to triple stack for either efficiency or range.

[SquirmyBurrito]

-snip-

 

>Can't counter my argument

>resorts to ad hominems and ignoring my post

 

I'm not a troll, you can go check my post history.

Edited March 28, 2014 by SquirmyBurrito

[kaboomonme]

 

Can you provide proofs to that statement?

No?

Ok...

 

Like I said... You can call me a troll (my post history will disprove that in seconds to anyone interested in looking...), but you can't say I'm wrong.

Had you been interested in having a civil debate, you'd have addressed me civilly. You did not.

 

But to address you with civility... A consideration you have not lent to me yet.

 

Your arguments are flawed. They discount some very important things.

1. Players purchased these helmets with money. The worst complaints imaginable are valid complaints regarding money.

2. DE is not going to want to have to refund those monies.

3. DE is a fledgling in this market. They have a reputation to maintain and an act of this type will damage it.

Why? Actions indicate trends. It's how I knew that DE would do something about the Helmets because players complained about Vanguard.

4. The main case for your argument is nullified with a Rush mod. Which Rhino has access to merely by removing +Duration or Charge.

If you were really going to make a cogent argument you'd have pointed at Loki as he has access to 2 gameplay altering helmets which allows him to triple stack for either efficiency or range.

1. Well arguably they aren't taking away what the players bought - a helmet. DE made a mistake which they are attempting to fix - and due to the predicted backlash from players, chose to let older players keep the helmets to protect themselves - despite the fact that it would be a band-aid solution. 

Can't blame them, as proven by this thread, a large number of players would no doubt blame everything on DE, demand for refunds, and do whatever they do best. I can't say any one party has the right in this issue. Again, both parties are at fault. So complaints - unavoidable, how DE deals with it - up to them.

I'd say to fulfil their idea of "purely aesthetic helmets", they should've implemented another system to promote specialization independent of the helmets system, while compensating players accordingly. I'm not DE though, so what they do will be their own problem.

2. As I have previously mentioned, DE has shown to be willing to compensate players, albeit not always using the right method. They may not be able to refund money, but they CAN do something about it. How they do it is a different matter entirely.

3. That's not to say that letting a different set of helmets stay in the game wouldn't piss off a different party. I'd say players would throw insults at them either way. They've made a lot of sweeping changes along the way, and players got mad and got over it. They can do the same again. (Not suggesting they should, cause they have to solve their own issue.)

Not saying having stat-attached helmets or not having them is right or wrong. Again there's no right or wrong in design. I just hoped they would have done it better.

4. The main deal-breaker is Rhino Prime. I'm sure DE added it in without ill-intent, but didn't realize how fast all those speed boosts add up to.
    
They made Rhino Prime a little faster to reward people that crafted it, to slightly make up for his low speed. 
Vanguard Helmet was also added in for this reason. Oh, if you are lucky enough to get it in an alert, or you have the plat for it, we can give you a little speed boost. 

These 2 stacked together is the unforeseen effect. And that is what this thread is about.

We're not taking into account the Rush mod because we're talking about Rhino getting special treatment that caused an unintended effect. That's all there is to it.

I've already seen most of the counter-arguments against this. Some are valid, others not so much. 
But most of them are just trying to imply that "Rhino needs speed" or "I have rights", instead of directly addressing the issue of Rhino's speed being faster than intended. 

I'm sure if one day, if Rhino Prime got a skill that lets him to something even better than Molecular Prime, a good portion of players would defend it still, and rebel against the revert. After all, players bought Rhino Prime too. It's a PvE game, why do you care, it means Rhino can help you kill more enemies and revive you better too, right?

[(PSN)GENESIS_777]

Dude, I am trying to say that all frames should have at least one drawback in the name of balance. With Vanguard, Rhino has none. There is almost no reason to choose any other frame over Rhino if you have that helmet. >.>

No drawbacks? Rhino is not the best at anything except absorbing bullets. All of his powers are just mediocre compaired to other frames. you want crowd control get Nyx, or vauban. you need damage get volt or nova. hell my loki doesn't even have a forma in it and i can stay invisible all the time, with just me using energy shipon. (and run aroud getting 25k damage from mele) Rhino is not even close to the BEST frame even with the helmet and rush. And somebody said they have seen rhinos carry teams because hes a tank, Well so have I, WHEN THEY COULD KEEP UP WITH US. So a fast rhino is a benefit to all player who use soft frames. Dont you want your bullet sponge to be where the bullets are? I do....

[SquirmyBurrito]

No drawbacks? Rhino is not the best at anything except absorbing bullets. All of his powers are just mediocre compaired to other frames. you want crowd control get Nyx, or vauban. you need damage get volt or nova. hell my loki doesn't even have a forma in it and i can stay invisible all the time, with just me using energy shipon. (and run aroud getting 25k damage from mele) Rhino is not even close to the BEST frame even with the helmet and rush. And somebody said they have seen rhinos carry teams because hes a tank, Well so have I, WHEN THEY COULD KEEP UP WITH US. So a fast rhino is a benefit to all player who use soft frames. Dont you want your bullet sponge to be where the bullets are? I do....

 

Not being the best at anything does not prevent him from still being good in those areas and thus not being weak in them. That equates to not having a weakness/drawback. Rhino can be shoehorned into almost (he isn't a healer) any role.

[(PSN)GENESIS_777]

After stepping away from this thread for a bit, I still don't understand why people are still arguing over it. 

 

While I think it was extremely alarmist to say one thing one has "ruined" Rhino, the part of what you said above is not what typically happens in game.

 

This game is filled with people who don't quite get the concept of "co-op" and charge ahead/speed then stand there and rudely heckle/insult anyone who doesn't make it to extraction the same time they do. Call them speedsters, rushers, whatever name, but this game is filled with them. I would say seeing who can have the fastest speed build is almost like a badge of honor in Warframe.

 

I wouldn't be in favor of DE "taking away" something I already purchased. They may do it anyway, but I wouldn't be happy about it.

 

I fail to see why the discussion is being sandwiched in with "fairness" issues for any player that comes to the game after DE does whatever they are going to do.

 

If new players don't start playing the game this week, they don't get the Dex Furis. Will the fairness brigade start a thread in a month saying it's not fair they can't get the Dex Furis? No, if you weren't there to get something, you weren't there to get it. If you weren't there to get tickets to a concert and it sold out, would you then say that is not fair?

 

If you are going to use the "fairness" argument, it could, and should, apply to anything done, or any item offered, in game in the last year for any new player that starts playing tomorrow. And that would be ludicrous.

 

I think the whole "fairness" issue sandwiched into this topic is disingenuous and merely trying to make an emotional appeal over an in game item that hasn't "ruined" anything besides how some people "see/feel" the Rhino Warframe should be.

BOOYA Well said. I cant stand the "Fairness Brigade"

[Rakosta_Kai]

 

 

1. Well arguably they aren't taking away what the players bought - a helmet. DE made a mistake which they are attempting to fix - and due to the predicted backlash from players, chose to let older players keep the helmets to protect themselves - despite the fact that it would be a band-aid solution. 

Can't blame them, as proven by this thread, a large number of players would no doubt blame everything on DE, demand for refunds, and do whatever they do best. I can't say any one party has the right in this issue. Again, both parties are at fault. So complaints - unavoidable, how DE deals with it - up to them.

I'd say to fulfil their idea of "purely aesthetic helmets", they should've implemented another system to promote specialization independent of the helmets system, while compensating players accordingly. I'm not DE though, so what they do will be their own problem.

2. As I have previously mentioned, DE has shown to be willing to compensate players, albeit not always using the right method. They may not be able to refund money, but they CAN do something about it. How they do it is a different matter entirely.

3. That's not to say that letting a different set of helmets stay in the game wouldn't &!$$ off a different party. I'd say players would throw insults at them either way. They've made a lot of sweeping changes along the way, and players got mad and got over it. They can do the same again. (Not suggesting they should, cause they have to solve their own issue.)

Not saying having stat-attached helmets or not having them is right or wrong. Again there's no right or wrong in design. I just hoped they would have done it better.

4. The main deal-breaker is Rhino Prime. I'm sure DE added it in without ill-intent, but didn't realize how fast all those speed boosts add up to.

    

They made Rhino Prime a little faster to reward people that crafted it, to slightly make up for his low speed. 

Vanguard Helmet was also added in for this reason. Oh, if you are lucky enough to get it in an alert, or you have the plat for it, we can give you a little speed boost. 

These 2 stacked together is the unforeseen effect. And that is what this thread is about.

We're not taking into account the Rush mod because we're talking about Rhino getting special treatment that caused an unintended effect. That's all there is to it.

I've already seen most of the counter-arguments against this. Some are valid, others not so much. 

But most of them are just trying to imply that "Rhino needs speed" or "I have rights", instead of directly addressing the issue of Rhino's speed being faster than intended. 

I'm sure if one day, if Rhino Prime got a skill that lets him to something even better than Molecular Prime, a good portion of players would defend it still, and rebel against the revert. After all, players bought Rhino Prime too. It's a PvE game, why do you care, it means Rhino can help you kill more enemies and revive you better too, right?

 

1. Agreed. Which is why DE's current solution is more workable than the one being put forth in this thread. It's, likewise, why I have said that removal of existing stats is a "scorched earth" solution.

 

2. By money, I mean Platinum for the clarity's sake... DE can refund the purchase amount but they wouldn't want to have to. We are saying the same thing. No compensatory solution is a good one, for all parties, in this case.

 

3. Forum posters throw insults... The players that truly decide with their wallets won't say a word though.

That's a truth with any consumer based service or good.

Talkers tend to stay... Walkers leave quietly.  There are always more Walkers.

I've no doubt the vocal minority promoting this subject has little to lose from an idea like this.

Unlike many of those posting here though, I refuse to discount the group that is saying nothing in this case... There's a lot more of them.

 

4. You make my point... That argument isn't cogent.

Rhino not only isn't a deal breaker, he isn't even relevant.

 

I've heard all the arguments for why he should be slow and every one has been an objective argument for why speed should be normalized game wide.

There is no argument that one can make to slow Rhino down that can't be made to slow Loki down or speed Frost or Saryn up.

If Tanks are supposed to be in the room first- Frost and Saryn need to have their speed increased.

If Tanks are supposed to stay with the group- Loki and Rhino need their speeds reduced.

But Normalization gets drowned in the morass of complaints about Rhino's speed though.

 

Many of the complaints are anecdotal and deal with concept. Those directly feed into my assertions of 2nd guessing experts.

The other complaints offer anecdotal assertions of game balance while ignoring much more glaring imbalances with other helmets. These, likewise, feed my assertion that experts shouldn't be 2nd guessed.

 

That's not to say that the explanations attempting to argue the speed are better... Again, any argument made to support one side can be turned to support the other because they are anecdotal.

 

For my part, I don't agree with either side. I say leave it be.... Perceived imbalances and all.

I'm content to leave it in the hands of the experts.

 

My personal solution for it would be entirely different...

Here's how:

Give every frame's Series 1 and 2 helmet stats.

Separate all the buffs from the helmets (making the helmets cosmetic) and create helmet mods in their place.  Many of those mods would have to be altered from their existing versions (slight buffs and slight nerfs)

Type and adjust every mod into Offense, Defense, and Support . Then Subdivide each of those into Physical and Energy

Give each helmet slot a polarity that can be altered with forma.

If the mod matches the polarity you get a slightly increased positive attribute (equal to what helmets give now) and reduced negative attribute (equal to now).  If the polarity doesn't you get less... a slightly reduced positive effect and an slightly increased negative effect.

I would also allow the helmet slot to allow for neutral builds where there is no polarity at all (the newly tuned version of the mods).

 

 

Then allow any frame access to any mod based on type... Provided they have the corresponding frame and the helmet in their arsenal.

[SquirmyBurrito]

My personal solution for it would be entirely different...

Here's how:

Give every frame's Series 1 and 2 helmet stats.

Separate all the buffs from the helmets (making the helmets cosmetic) and create helmet mods in their place.  Many of those mods would have to be altered from their existing versions (slight buffs and slight nerfs)

Type and adjust every mod into Offense, Defense, and Support . Then Subdivide each of those into Physical and Energy

Give each helmet slot a polarity that can be altered with forma.

If the mod matches the polarity you get a slightly increased positive attribute (equal to what helmets give now) and reduced negative attribute (equal to now).  If the polarity doesn't you get less... a slightly reduced positive effect and an slightly increased negative effect.

I would also allow the helmet slot to allow for neutral builds where there is no polarity at all (the newly tuned version of the mods).

 

 

Then allow any frame access to any mod based on type... Provided they have the corresponding frame and the helmet in their arsenal.

 

Not going to bother replying to the rest but this solution of yours could be done differently.

Just remove helmet stats (hold on, keep your fingers off your keyboard. Finish reading) and transfer them to the 'focus' system. Or, they could always bring back those upgrade trees and just slap them in there.

[(PSN)pmnovaroadspilot]

its mostly a afterthought seeing that this is going to happen 

the one argument that people cannot refute and has sadly been dismissed as being troll is the fact that people that cry for nerfs 

are being inherently selfish and ignorant because of the fact that they want to speak up for what i should build

 

it should be said that something being good does not invalidate your personal choice to use or not use it and its PVE  

yet you want to combat my personal choice and dictate my options because you feel like its powerful 

 

the only time a nerf should be relevant is when it infringes upon others participation to a large extent 

 

helmet stats dont do this and i should be able to pick what i want on my screen for my character with out your hands in my decision 

 

its rude 

ignorant and in the real world you would be scrutinized to the highest extent for such selfish child like behavior  

Edited March 28, 2014 by (PS4)pmnovaroadspilot