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How Vanguard Helmet Ruined Rhino


TheStag
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Not going to bother replying to the rest but this solution of yours could be done differently.

Just remove helmet stats (hold on, keep your fingers off your keyboard. Finish reading) and transfer them to the 'focus' system. Or, they could always bring back those upgrade trees and just slap them in there.

Already thought about that actually.

It would look like what it was at that point though... A shell game.

Give buffs (Or have people pay for them)... Take them away.. Then invent a way to grind to get them back.

That's a bad look.

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its mostly a afterthought seeing that this is going to happen 

the one argument that people cannot refute and has sadly been dismissed as being troll is the fact that people that cry for nerfs 

are being inherently selfish and ignorant because of the fact that they want to speak up for what i should build

 

it should be said that something being good does not invalidate your personal choice to use or not use it and its PVE  

yet you want to combat my personal choice and dictate my options because you feel like its powerful 

 

the only time a nerf should be relevant is when it infringes upon other participation to a large extent 

 

helmet stats dont do this and i should be able to pick what i want on my screen for my character with out you hands in my decision 

 

its rude 

ignorant and in the real world you would be scrutinized to the highest extent for such selfish child like behavior  

I've commented to that fact numerous times.

The problem is, that they think it's the right thing to do.

People forget that intentionally infringing on others is never the right thing to do.

So it continues...

DE's solution isn't a convenient one, but does work and is objectively fair.

The addition of items like proto-skins will further minimize the effect of helmets altogether.

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Already thought about that actually.

It would look like what it was at that point though... A shell game.

Give buffs (Or have people pay for them)... Take them away.. Then invent a way to grind to get them back.

That's a bad look.

Except in most, if not all suggestions involving a helmet slot system, you have it so that those who previously owned stat-ed helmets receive a stat mod for that stat.

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Except in most, if not all suggestions involving a helmet slot system, you have it so that those who previously owned stat-ed helmets receive a stat mod for that stat.

I addressed that some time ago... Squirmy suggested as an alternative removing the stats and plunking them in the Focus System.

You replied to my response to that.

 

Below is the original idea and it does exactly what you described with small differences.

You'd have to have the corresponding Frame and Helmet to get access to the stats.

The stats would have to be adjusted for general use's sake probably.

 

 

My personal solution for it would be entirely different...

Here's how:

Give every frame's Series 1 and 2 helmet stats.

Separate all the buffs from the helmets (making the helmets cosmetic) and create helmet mods in their place.  Many of those mods would have to be altered from their existing versions (slight buffs and slight nerfs)

Type and adjust every mod into Offense, Defense, and Support . Then Subdivide each of those into Physical and Energy

Give each helmet slot a polarity that can be altered with forma.

If the mod matches the polarity you get a slightly increased positive attribute (equal to what helmets give now) and reduced negative attribute (equal to now).  If the polarity doesn't you get less... a slightly reduced positive effect and an slightly increased negative effect.

I would also allow the helmet slot to allow for neutral builds where there is no polarity at all (the newly tuned version of the mods).

 

 

Then allow any frame access to any mod based on type... Provided they have the corresponding frame and the helmet in their arsenal.

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/snippet on slot idea

That sounds about the gidst of what I feel to be the optimal answer. 

 

This polarity "buff" idea is a curious one, however. It hadn't really been suggested before, but I can certainly see the hand behind it. Encouraging that min-maxing to achieve the perfect match. The subdivision into physical and energy seems a tad excessive, though. I think simply leaving it with the standard polarity modules (as you mentioned, will be modifiable via Forma, same as Auras.) will make programming, ui, and all that a load easier. 

 

Naturally (again, as you've stated) adjustments will be needed in order to eliminate the...let's call it the "Energy Siphon" issue where everyone just selects one buff over everyone else. I mean, why use the Hemlock buff when Vanguard buff is just so much better (I could mention a bunch more...but for the sake of remaining on topic, I'll stick to that example). Couple changes here and there and we have a perfect system that will have the vast majority celebrating.

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That sounds about the gidst of what I feel to be the optimal answer. 

 

This polarity "buff" idea is a curious one, however. It hadn't really been suggested before, but I can certainly see the hand behind it. Encouraging that min-maxing to achieve the perfect match. The subdivision into physical and energy seems a tad excessive, though. I think simply leaving it with the standard polarity modules (as you mentioned, will be modifiable via Forma, same as Auras.) will make programming, ui, and all that a load easier. 

 

Naturally (again, as you've stated) adjustments will be needed in order to eliminate the...let's call it the "Energy Siphon" issue where everyone just selects one buff over everyone else. I mean, why use the Hemlock buff when Vanguard buff is just so much better (I could mention a bunch more...but for the sake of remaining on topic, I'll stick to that example). Couple changes here and there and we have a perfect system that will have the vast majority celebrating.

Yes, there are definitely some duplicates. Given individual frames needs and weakness there have to be. I have no clue how the devs would balance that if they implemented something like this.

The whole energy/physical subdivision accounts for the potential trade-offs, in my head. Some frames can afford to sacrifice a physical attribute to gain an energy attribute buff and vice versa. That said though... I am a needlessly complicated person and that was literally off the top of my head.

It's probably over-complicated xD

 

I'm no Dev so it's no-where close to usable. I've no doubt they have already probably examined such an idea and discarded it.

Likewise, as Squirmy said, it would be ideal as a Focus initiative.  So that may be another reason for the discard.

 

Appreciate the feedback!

 

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And here we are, let the whining begin!

 

Rhino is faster than me, he can outrun and kill me... Oh, wait, it's not a PvP game, the speed gives him no advantage over me!

Because a tank is supposed to be as fast as a Formula 1 car.

 

That doesn't make sense, not even in the Warframe universe.

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 Some frames can afford to sacrifice a physical attribute to gain an energy attribute buff and vice versa. That said though... I am a needlessly complicated person and that was literally off the top of my head.

It's probably over-complicated xD

I am sure the helmets could be balanced, but they have said in a live-stream (I can't remember what one it was in and I do not want to waste 10 hours finding it) That they do not want to alter the stats of the helms because some people might like the current useless helm's stats (someone wants to be slow or something). They said they already know what helms are useless or have the wrong combination of stats. The problem was they wanted to make them all unique and that is what resulted in the current helmet mess.

 

They could have made all helmet useful for one coveted attribute, but that would take DE sitting down and having a weight scale to find out what is useful and how much each point is worth to a player. Pendragon is a far better example of a no-brainer choice over vanguard. If they had made Avalon a duration based helm there would have been conflict of what helmet should be chosen for the play style a person wanted.

 

I comment on Volt's topic that I fully expect the focus system to get the stats back anyway.

Edited by LazyKnight
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Wouldn't that mean veteran players could double up on effects?

I doubt that DE would allow double dipping, after removing the legacy items. It would be simple matter to make it so the helm* in question was equipped it nullified either the point spent in the focus system or didn't let a player pick it. If they get that system up and running they could manage that type of issue in a few different ways to keep people from getting too much of an advantage.

 

At most it would save a person one extra point by having a helm, but DE has numerous ways to remove it, should it be a problem.

 

Edit: typos

Edited by LazyKnight
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I doubt that DE would allow double dipping, after removing the legacy items. It would be simple matter to make it so the helm* in question was equipped it nullified either the point spent in the focus system or didn't let a player pick it. If they get that system up and running they could manage that type of issue in a few different ways to keep people from getting too much of an advantage.

 

At most it would save a person one extra point by having a helm, but DE has numerous ways to remove it, should it be a problem.

 

Edit: typos

 

That works, I was just curious.

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I just want Vanguard helmet balanced to where the speed boost is around 10%, or it doesn't affect speed at all and strengthen something else. High speed ruins Rhino. Simple as that.

Edited by TheStag
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After playing rhino prime with vanguard helm and maxed rush mod every other frame feels too slow.

 

Unnecessarily slow.

 

The game would be far more fun if all frames had a base speed 25% higher than they do now.

Why? Buffing everyone's speed by 25% wouldn't solve anything. Loki and RhiPri's would still be blitzing missions while Frost got left behind.

 

I'm so tired of people complaining about speed in a PVE NINJA GAME. STOP.

 

I'm so tired of people complaining about powercreep/op weapons/op frames in a PVE NINJA GAME. STOP.

Edited by SquirmyBurrito
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Why? Buffing everyone's speed by 25% wouldn't solve anything. Loki and RhiPri's would still be blitzing missions while Frost got left behind.

 

 

 

I'm so tired of people complaining about powercreep/op weapons/op frames in a PVE NINJA GAME. STOP.

Ember needs the speed buff for World on Fire.

Ember right now is the hardest frame to get away from mobs when your damage becomes weak. Nova doesn't have that issue, she has Wormhole and 1.2 speed allowing her to get access to higher climbs.

At least Rhino has "Rhino Charge" to fly over to the next spot.

Edited by Makemap
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Ember needs the speed buff for World on Fire.

Ember right now is the hardest frame to get away from mobs when your damage becomes weak. Nova doesn't have that issue, she has Wormhole and 1.2 speed allowing her to get access to higher climbs.

At least Rhino has "Rhino Charge" to fly over to the next spot.

Just equip a copter weapon.  Do people not know about this?  You can also slide-sprint and walljump to get enough speed to do whatever.  

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Just equip a copter weapon.  Do people not know about this?  You can also slide-sprint and walljump to get enough speed to do whatever.  

Using a weapon to bandaid a warframe issue still doesn't solve the issue. You're just ignoring it.

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Just equip a copter weapon.  Do people not know about this?  You can also slide-sprint and walljump to get enough speed to do whatever.  

Common sense? Geez, you don't belong in this game. Space ninjas can't possibly have common sense.

EDIT : Even without coptering, wall-jumping, slide-sprinting and dragon kicks are more than effective ways to avoid getting pinned.

Edited by kaboomonme
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And here we are, let the whining begin!

 

Rhino is faster than me, he can outrun and kill me... Oh, wait, it's not a PvP game, the speed gives him no advantage over me!

Over?  No.  But frankly, a faster Rhino is an advantage to the WHOLE TEAM.  People complaining about wanting him to be 'slow' is preventing the rushers from wanting one of the team with them.

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Over?  No.  But frankly, a faster Rhino is an advantage to the WHOLE TEAM.  People complaining about wanting him to be 'slow' is preventing the rushers from wanting one of the team with them.

Have you ever thought about Rhino actually BEING a rusher, while other slow frames like Frost get left behind instead?

It's all a matter of perspective. Forcing a perspective doesn't make it fact. Sweeping statements will get you nowhere, and neither do random accusations. 

*sigh* and to think I decided to stay out of this thread a while ago. Why is this still alive?

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Why not just make the damage reduction -25%/20% instead  of a measly -5%? (or take increased % of damage) Now you have an actual choice, do you want some speed for lesser firepower (which can be mitigated through roar) or would you rather be slow but powerful?

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