SquirmyBurrito Posted April 4, 2014 Share Posted April 4, 2014 (edited) Why not just make the damage reduction -25%/20% instead of a measly -5%? (or take increased % of damage) Now you have an actual choice, do you want some speed for lesser firepower (which can be mitigated through roar) or would you rather be slow but powerful? That's what this thread is about. Balance. You attempt to balance it by raising the drawback. I attempt to balance it by removing all helmet stats. TheStag attempts to balance it by lowering its stats. Others say "F*** balance, PvE blahblahblahblahblah". Oh, and another group of 'others' are QQ'ing about how speed means nothing but at the same time slow is 'unfun'. Edited April 4, 2014 by SquirmyBurrito Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArchPhaeton Posted April 4, 2014 Share Posted April 4, 2014 (edited) I have nothing against rhino, he's basic and useful, neither OP or useless. But focusing on giving him speed is a rather weird move from the dev's. Being the tank-oriented frame of the game, the option should be bonus shields, health or w/e makes him tankier, IMO. Edited April 4, 2014 by ArchPhaeton Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Makemap Posted April 4, 2014 Share Posted April 4, 2014 (edited) That's what this thread is about. Balance. You attempt to balance it by raising the drawback. I attempt to balance it by removing all helmet stats. TheStag attempts to balance it by lowering its stats. Others say "F*** balance, PvE blahblahblahblahblah". Oh, and another group of 'others' are either QQ'ing about how speed means nothing but at the same time slow is 'unfun'. Exactly, Why do you think Nova has 1.2 speed when she has wormhole that takes her to another place right away. It is basically unfair to all the other frames that she can move as fast and teleport across the room away from mobs. Every other frames are stuck behind. I think DE totally messed up the balance. Rhino = Nightmare Nova = Rush Loki = Stealth Rush. Every other warframes are pointless in this game right now. Except Trinity. Edited April 4, 2014 by Makemap Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SquirmyBurrito Posted April 4, 2014 Share Posted April 4, 2014 Exactly, Why do you think Nova has 1.2 speed when she has wormhole that takes her to another place right away. It is basically unfair to all the other frames that she can move as fast and teleport across the room away from mobs. Every other frames are stuck behind. I think DE totally messed up the balance. Rhino = Nightmare Nova = Rush Loki = Stealth Rush. Every other warframes are pointless in this game right now. Except Trinity. I disagree. Nova has that speed but has no way to make herself any less squishy. Using Wormhole for lateral movement is a waste of energy. I disagree with this bit as well. That's obviously not true. If you want to be taken seriously try to keep your bias a little more hidden. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RealPandemonium Posted April 4, 2014 Share Posted April 4, 2014 I disagree. Nova has that speed but has no way to make herself any less squishy. Slowing everything by 50% effectively doubles your effective HP, probably more since the enemies can't track you as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kaboomonme Posted April 4, 2014 Share Posted April 4, 2014 (edited) Slowing everything by 50% effectively doubles your effective HP, probably more since the enemies can't track you as well. I never understood the design decision behind how an ultimate that has a huge speed debuff, double damage debuff, really good direct damage AND a chain reaction would be a good idea. And the fact that it works on most bosses. It's basically a "render boss useless" button. EDIT : Oh right. It was a community vote thing that made her end up this way. Meh. Edited April 4, 2014 by kaboomonme Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SquirmyBurrito Posted April 4, 2014 Share Posted April 4, 2014 (edited) Slowing everything by 50% effectively doubles your effective HP, probably more since the enemies can't track you as well. Started to sound really nit picky so I cut it. I agree. I believe DE put way too many eggs in Molecular Prime's basket. Some of those its features need to be removed. Edited April 4, 2014 by SquirmyBurrito Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RealPandemonium Posted April 4, 2014 Share Posted April 4, 2014 I never understood the design decision behind how an ultimate that deals has a huge speed debuff, double damage, really good damage AND a chain reaction would be a good idea. And the fact that it works on most bosses. It's basically a "render boss useless" button. The Design Council is behind it. Like many of their decisions, this one was toxic and in bad taste. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SquirmyBurrito Posted April 4, 2014 Share Posted April 4, 2014 The Design Council is behind it. Like many of their decisions, this one was toxic and in bad taste. Had I been part of the DC at the time I wouldn't have voted for something like that. Too late I guess. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kaboomonme Posted April 4, 2014 Share Posted April 4, 2014 (edited) Had I been part of the DC at the time I wouldn't have voted for something like that. Too late I guess. I was there. Believe me, it wouldn't have mattered. The general populace controls the votes, and the general populace loves how Nova is now. All I could do was gather a bunch of friends and bury our faces in our hands in unison. Edited April 4, 2014 by kaboomonme Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Noogums Posted April 4, 2014 Share Posted April 4, 2014 Thrak Helmet Master Race. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SquirmyBurrito Posted April 4, 2014 Share Posted April 4, 2014 I was there. Believe me, it wouldn't have mattered. The general populace controls the votes, and the general populace loves how Nova is now. All I could do was gather a bunch of friends and bury our faces in our hands in unison. Yeah, I definitely know that feeling... that's how I was with the last few polls on the DC forums. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(PSN)billy-d-squid Posted April 4, 2014 Share Posted April 4, 2014 (edited) I was there. Believe me, it wouldn't have mattered. The general populace controls the votes, and the general populace loves how Nova is now. All I could do was gather a bunch of friends and bury our faces in our hands in unison. Then the general populace are a bunch of morons and need a slap upside the head for advocating such stupidly broken powers. Edited April 4, 2014 by (PS4)billy-d-squid Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nagisawa Posted April 4, 2014 Share Posted April 4, 2014 The Design Council is behind it. Like many of their decisions, this one was toxic and in bad taste.The DC gets a bad rap. All they get to do is vote on stuff, and often the choices presented aren't really choices. They literally have no input past voting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RealPandemonium Posted April 4, 2014 Share Posted April 4, 2014 It would be nice if we could see the design council forum so that we could get an idea of what goes on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AuroraSonicBoom Posted April 4, 2014 Share Posted April 4, 2014 Well, at least we have a little bit of progress with shield flux now longer allowing players to convert shields into stamina. The majority of Rhino players I know used that mod to keep rushing forever - at least that's not an issue anymore. The main issue is however is far from being solved. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SquirmyBurrito Posted April 4, 2014 Share Posted April 4, 2014 (edited) It would be nice if we could see the design council forum so that we could get an idea of what goes on. Post and play a bunch and you might get an invite. Edit: If you want to see what stuff is on DC your best bet would be reddit since someone always seems to leak it there before I even have a chance to hear about it from the horse's mouth. Edited April 4, 2014 by SquirmyBurrito Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Basilisk1991 Posted April 5, 2014 Share Posted April 5, 2014 Dude, I am trying to say that all frames should have at least one drawback in the name of balance. With Vanguard, Rhino has none. There is almost no reason to choose any other frame over Rhino if you have that helmet. >.> What if you want to heal your group? Rhino possesses no such ability but Trinity does. What if you want to have a Warframe that's very good at reinforcing a position with traps and the like? Vauban can do that but Rhino can't. What if you want to throw fireballs? What about Lightning bolts? Summon the dead to fight for you? Last I checked Rhino can't do any of these either. Really your argument is rather easy to deflate you know. Not to mention the Rush mod which doesn't require you to buy/craft anything. That's been ruining ALL slow warframes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SquirmyBurrito Posted April 5, 2014 Share Posted April 5, 2014 (edited) What if you want to heal your group? Rhino possesses no such ability but Trinity does. What if you want to have a Warframe that's very good at reinforcing a position with traps and the like? Vauban can do that but Rhino can't. What if you want to throw fireballs? What about Lightning bolts? Summon the dead to fight for you? Last I checked Rhino can't do any of these either. Really your argument is rather easy to deflate you know. Not to mention the Rush mod which doesn't require you to buy/craft anything. That's been ruining ALL slow warframes. You're trying to create a drawback for him by proposing extremely specific situations. What if I want to fart rainbows? Rhino possesses no such ability, guess that's his weakness. Rhino can fit almost any role needed. Is your team missing a CC frame? What about a damage buff'er? Need a damager? Need someone fast to go get those pesky O2 pods? Your attempt to refute the 'no drawback' argument failed miserably. The rush mods takes up a mod slot. That's a big enough drawback as is (it also takes up 11 mod capacity). Edited April 5, 2014 by SquirmyBurrito Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Basilisk1991 Posted April 5, 2014 Share Posted April 5, 2014 You're trying to create a drawback for him by proposing extremely specific situations. What if I want to fart rainbows? Rhino possesses no such ability, guess that's his weakness. Rhino can fit almost any role needed. Is your team missing a CC frame? What about a damage buff'er? Need a damager? Need someone fast to go get those pesky O2 pods? Your attempt to refute the 'no drawback' argument failed miserably. The rush mods takes up a mod slot. That's a big enough drawback as is (it also takes up 11 mod capacity). When you say it like that you make it sound like the speed is the least of your problems. Sarcasm aside I don't see how Rhino moving fast ruins your ability to play/enjoy the game. This isn't like Nova in your group who presses the 4 key and taps a mouse button and kills everything within a 10 mile radius while you sit there bored with nothing to shoot. My point is that while it's a little annoying that a Prime Rhino can outrun almost every other frame in the game because he decided to wear a specific hat, that is the least of the game's balance problems. I doubt this game will ever be truly balanced in such a way that everyone is satisfied, but one helm having a stat you think conflicts with the character's thematics isn't really that high on my list of "Problems DE needs to fix ASAP". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SquirmyBurrito Posted April 5, 2014 Share Posted April 5, 2014 When you say it like that you make it sound like the speed is the least of your problems. Sarcasm aside I don't see how Rhino moving fast ruins your ability to play/enjoy the game. This isn't like Nova in your group who presses the 4 key and taps a mouse button and kills everything within a 10 mile radius while you sit there bored with nothing to shoot. My point is that while it's a little annoying that a Prime Rhino can outrun almost every other frame in the game because he decided to wear a specific hat, that is the least of the game's balance problems. I doubt this game will ever be truly balanced in such a way that everyone is satisfied, but one helm having a stat you think conflicts with the character's thematics isn't really that high on my list of "Problems DE needs to fix ASAP". Please avoid bringing up 'fun'. That is a subjective subject and leads nowhere. Its about balance. He has no drawbacks when using that helmet. That is one of the issues. This also applies to practically all the other helmets. Something not being a huge balancing issue doesn't mean it shouldn't get fixed. Especially when it has such a simple solution. Its a problem they are already partially fixing with the stat removal. All they have to do to completely fix all the issues (even the ones that arise as a result of the incomplete stat removal) is completely remove all helmet stats. Problems solved. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Monolake Posted April 5, 2014 Share Posted April 5, 2014 (edited) I was there. Believe me, it wouldn't have mattered. The general populace controls the votes, and the general populace loves how Nova is now. All I could do was gather a bunch of friends and bury our faces in our hands in unison. Could you elaborate? Wasn't it DE design and people just voted to chose from several variants? And I really cant blame people who blindly voted without any testing on something that just seemed cool in theory. Huge part of player base doesn't like Nova, you can read it everywhere, but not like it matters. Its DEs job to balance from the facts, not from subjective like/dislike of a group of players. Then the general populace are a bunch of morons and need a slap upside the head for advocating such stupidly broken powers. Dont. General populace doesn't have to understand gamedesign and balance, they are consumers, they dont need to be qualified at designing a product. Its developers job. Edited April 5, 2014 by Monolake Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(PSN)billy-d-squid Posted April 5, 2014 Share Posted April 5, 2014 (edited) What if you want to heal your group? Rhino possesses no such ability but Trinity does. What if you want to have a Warframe that's very good at reinforcing a position with traps and the like? Vauban can do that but Rhino can't. What if you want to throw fireballs? What about Lightning bolts? Summon the dead to fight for you? Last I checked Rhino can't do any of these either. Really your argument is rather easy to deflate you know. Not to mention the Rush mod which doesn't require you to buy/craft anything. That's been ruining ALL slow warframes. That's a stupid argument and you should feel bad for posting such drivel. Heal? HP orbs everywhere. Trinity is also broken by the way, unlimited range God mod for 20 seconds. Vauban is Good, Stomp does it almost as well in a pinch with 8 seconds of CC at nearly 30m and does 800 base damage with no mods. Why? Shock loses out to weapons.DPS, and Stomp is better at CC, Charge given more damage and isn't hammered by alloy armour resistance. SoTD is crap (the fact you actually brought that boggles the mind and makes me think you're scrapping the bottom of the barrel) Rush requires a mod slot. Rhino is a great Jack of all trades frame, but on the slower side, rightly so (although too slow without the Vanguard, and stupidly fast with it. Devs can't seem to hit a happy medium with the daft percentage buffs and nerfs they have in the game) Please try harder. Edited April 5, 2014 by (PS4)billy-d-squid Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(PSN)billy-d-squid Posted April 5, 2014 Share Posted April 5, 2014 (edited) Could you elaborate? Wasn't it DE design and people just voted to chose from several variants? And I really cant blame people who blindly voted without any testing on something that just seemed cool in theory. Huge part of player base doesn't like Nova, you can read it everywhere, but not like it matters. Its DEs job to balance from the facts, not from subjective like/dislike of a group of players. Dont. General populace doesn't have to understand gamedesign and balance, they are consumers, they dont need to be qualified at designing a product. Its developers job. Problem is that they seem to say daft things like, there is no consensus. As per Scott in one of the Dev streams. Well of course there will never be a consensus, people are not going to accept that the likes of Nova AMD and MP, Rhino's Vanguard, Trinity's Blessing gives a huge game breaking advantage trivialising most content (hiding behind "well it's balanced at lvl 60+ is a horrendous argument that people use) when they can blast through T3 and get the prime parts and farm cells in minutes. They're never going to accept that. And the people on here argue that it's okay, then DE looks here and says, there's no consensus. They're as bad as eachother, if that's the position that's being taken, it's critical of me to point that out, but if they want unadulterated gushing, they're going to get out of control power creep and it'll end up a mess. I don't think you need to be a game designer to realise that a damage table which gives 75% bonus damage or a 400% multiplier from powers, 25% speed boosts are completely out of step. It's simple arithmetic. I'm hoping that when they implement the solar rails, they'll actually realise that some of these powers and frames are utterly daft and open to abuse in their current state. Maybe when the general populace gets their solar rail stolen and booted out the badlands by a mass Nova/ Vanguard spam they'll realise that having this being unbalanced wasn't such a good idea.... but then again I look at Frost and I'm not going to hold my breath. Edited April 5, 2014 by (PS4)billy-d-squid Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RealPandemonium Posted April 5, 2014 Share Posted April 5, 2014 SoTD is crap (the fact you actually brought that boggles the mind and makes me think you're scrapping the bottom of the barrel) Nekros' 4 is actually a great move that deals scaling damage and provides good CC. They just need to fix it so that the casting animation isn't so long and so that the summons' AI is more responsive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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