How Vanguard Helmet Ruined Rhino

[LazyKnight]

I dont even think Rhino has to be SLOW.  But he shouldn't be one of the FASTEST frames either, that is unbalanced for sure. 

 

 

Vanguard defenders who say 'speed doesnt matter' are just hypocrites. 

DE should have kept all frames at 1.0 speed and never have had that speed adjustment patch. This entire nonsense that some frames are entitled to be the fastest is rubbish.

 

The only time that speed is relevant:

 

1) For melee, and this is just for closing the distance. There is ZERO other combat use for sprint speed.

2) Getting to the boss (or target).

3) Getting to the exit.

 

You can not shot and sprint, END of story.

Edited March 23, 2014 by LazyKnight

[SquirmyBurrito]

Your assumptive nature aside, I do not appreciate you questioning my sanity in regards to feeling that if someone puts 100 hours into making something amazing, it's not right, nor fair to say "you cant have that because there's no reason that i can conceive as to why you should".

 

all it sounds like is "you got it cant have it cause i said so.

 

if you can show me mathematically how the vanguard helmet is game breaking, i might change my opinion. however, all it sounds like, AS USUAL, is that someone wants take away a potential because why? you dont like it? you dont FEEL rhino should move that fast? why? who are YOU to make that decision for the player base?

 

if i want to make my frame go fast, REALLY fast, im GOING to have to make a sacrifice, or two minimum. what YOU all seem to want, is a cookie cutter mold in which all frames play a specific way and thats it.

 

i PROMOTE some form of customization, and UNLESS the vanguard helmet gives some sort of time warp ability that makes rhino kill all mobs as he's sprinting then in my warped opinion, i see nothing wrong. sacrifice power, for speed, or did you forget thats the offset for the vanguard helm?

You never answered my question. Come back when you've thought up an answer for my question. You also ignored most of the rest of my post. I urge you to go back and read that too.

 

1) and it nerfs all his abilities. 

 

2) Biased arguement. Why don't you mention Switch Teleport?

 

3) Unlike IS these skills actually negate damage and scale. Zephyr doesn't need to do damage when her cc does work at all levels. 

 

4) Other mastery locked items have no "weak area" or "weak spots". Look at PP. For bows, paris prime is good at everything stat-wise.

 

5) lol. Having modded-health is nice, and modded-shields are even nicer, but at the end of the day modded-abilities are going to get you through the starchart.

 

1. -5% is hardly a nerf, and if you're modding your Rhino Charge for damage you're doing it wrong.

 

2. Biased? How? A switch teleport+decoy chain is both unwieldy and slower than a Rhino just spamming a well modded charge. Switch Teleport also has a 50m cap. Charge does not.

 

3. And unlike those frames, Rhino has other things that he can back himself up with. Rhino also has CC that works at all levels.

 

4. The paris prime lacks what all bows lack, that is to say it lacks what all burst damage weapons lack.

 

5. Yeah, because you totally can't go with both. /sarcasm. Saryn's hemlock helmet takes her from slow to slightly above average. Rhino goes from slowest (tied with frost) to fourth fastest. Vanguard changes Rhino's weakness  into a strength.

[egypt]

Rhino is mediocre frame at best. People who scream OP either never played him or don't bother get past 40 min T3 survival. Actually 40 min survival would be rather challenging with only 4 Rhinos. Although at that level frame doesn't even matter much. It depends all on whether you have a reliable weapon.

Edited March 23, 2014 by egypt

[(PSN)billy-d-squid]

Actually lower than average speed never was a problem for Rhino since he can easily swap survivability mods for speed mods since Iron skin gives him enough protection for all the normal missions. He never needed Vanguard, but Vanguard made him into the best rushing frame (before Zephyr) 

 

I think that there has been a shift towards rushing in the public games. Not so much Nightmare, Clan matches and ODD, which is something that DE seems to be trying to address in a roundabout way with the Grineer arc things and the Laser doors (although the fact they can just be slid past is facepalm worthy)

 

And yes, the rare times I play Rhino now, I don't use the Vanguard, but it's become too much of a prerequisite for when playing Rhino, that needs to change given the 25% speed boost is obscene and allowing players to be that fast, without the use of other speed boosting mods. I don't think that Rhino Prime's speed boost to 1.0 was so much of an issue, but as soon as you put the Vanguard helm into play, boom. You're getting speed with no downside, without even using a mod slot.

 

If it was 10% I don't think it would be so much of an issue, if it put him at 1.0. But given that Frost and Saryn either don't have that option or get a 10% boost, why is Rhino getting 25%? How is that justified or what twisted logic was behind that decision in beyond me.

Edited March 23, 2014 by (PS4)billy-d-squid

[(PSN)billy-d-squid]

Rhino is mediocre frame at best. People who scream OP either never played him or don't bother get past 40 min T3 survival. 

 

Really, really? I'm just going to say.

 

Edited March 23, 2014 by (PS4)billy-d-squid

[LazyKnight]

If it was 10% I don't think it would be so much of an issue, if it put him at 1.0. But given that Frost and Saryn either don't have that option or get a 10% boost, why is Rhino getting 25%? How is that justified or what twisted logic was behind that decision in beyond me.

The frames that have lowers than 1 speed are forced to use the rush mod just to be able to keep up with the frames with a +1 speed. This is another issues that is causing the rushing issue because no one wants to get left behind. The entire idea of having speed mods, and varied speed amongst the frames, was a bad idea that leads to a fear of being slowest.

 

I hate playing frost in public matches simply because I have to use a rush mod to keep up with the Loki players.

[(PSN)billy-d-squid]

The frames that have lowers than 1 speed are forced to use the rush mod just to be able to keep up with the frames with a +1 speed. This is another issues that is causing the rushing issue because no one wants to get left behind. The entire idea of having speed mods, and varied speed amongst the frames, was a bad idea that leads to a fear of being slowest.

 

I hate playing frost in public matches simply because I have to use a rush mod to keep up with the Loki players.

 

See that highlights the existing issue with DE's approach to adding things to the game and what they actually have planned for the future combined with balancing. 

 

What happens when they add the focus system? Is that going to add new benefits? Are we going to see enemy stats increase due to the power creep? Are they going to stack with the Vanguard helm and the like, or other mods? 

 

My question primarily is, has DE thought this through yet? I don't think they have and from the dev chat thing they did where Scott said "there is no consensus" so they didn't act (I'm paraphrasing here) there is never going to be a complete consensus, which indicates to me that they don't actually know how to approach this issue.

 

The people who paid for fames or want to play rush builds and the like, certainly aren't going to advocate and agree to a nerf, which will hit their favourite toy, even if it is the right decision for the game overall; expecting that to happen so "consensus" can be achieved, looks directionless and weak on the part of the Devs, maybe it's harsh criticism, but it's something they need to hear at least from some of us, so they can get their act together and sort out what objective they want to achieve for each frame, mechanic etc.

[AvengerGrim]

Rhino is great, tanky, has cc and with Vanguard he's also speedy, so what? Can someone explain me how making Rhino a slow &#! turtle will make the game more fun? Rhino is already pretty boring as it is to play, if on top of that you make it ridiculously slow, yeah...

 

Again, explain me how making Rhino slower will make him or the game more fun. Because let's be honest, balancing just for the sake of balancing is the most idiotic reason ever, no offence, this is no e-sport game, it's just a fun PvE game which is already so unbalanced that has now passed the point of no return...

 

Just enjoy the game, DE should work on what is broken instead of nerfing yet again more warframes...

[Riasiru]

@ Riasiru You must not play this game if you think speed does not affect much of anything. Go play some public online games for once.

You failed to refute my points and instead resorted to invalidating me by saying I don't play the game. Two can play this childish game if you wish.

 

You're wrong cause reasons! Lalalala! Can't hear you!

 

Enough of that. If you expect anyone to take you seriously, you need to be open to the idea you could be wrong. I'm certainly open to the idea that I may be wrong. As it stands, however, I never thought I wasn't moving fast enough in a fight. I always thought I was too slow when I was running to the fight or to a down ally. No one is too slow until they have somewhere to be. If you're right where you ought to be with no where to go, speed becomes a non-issue. Hell, even with the Vanguard I find myself to often feel too slow. If only I was a little faster, I might have been able to rez that guy... Or, if only I was a little faster, that Loki running Marathon and Rush wouldn't have left me in the dust and killed everything outside of affinity share range... I freaking hate pubs. Why do I keep going into random games? There is always this jerk playing solo while everyone else is playing catch up.

 

And to further my point, I'd just like to ask you this... When does Volt usually end up using his Speed ability? Does he ever seem to spam it like no one's business during a fire fight? No? How about when running to a fight? Yeah? Rushing to pickup that downed ally? Yeah? Seems to be a pattern, doesn't it?

 

I will say this, though. Mobility is definitely a boon in the new Interception mode on Earth. However, this is mostly because your team gets split up and someone eventually goes down. High mobility players are the life line the rest of the team counts on when this happens... As for a slow Rhino... You... Just keep sitting on D, buddy. Alone... By yourself... Cause it'll take forever to get down to A... And by then they'll be rezzed by the Zephyr... And then you have to walk aaaall the way back up... Eyup...

 

And this is why I use the Vanguard helmet when I Rhino. +25% speed is all it takes to go from soloing in a group of four to being a team player.

 

PS. Time Played; 319:23:10.

[(PSN)IIIDevoidIII]

Just to put this back out there... Helmet's stats are being removed... all these arguments are pointless.

[GaleRoar]

I got it. The answer is to replace all Vanguard Helmets with Thrak Helmets.

 

inb4 Serious argument to non-serious comment.

Edited March 24, 2014 by GaleRoar

[Cwierz]

You failed to refute my points and instead resorted to invalidating me by saying I don't play the game. Two can play this childish game if you wish.

 

You're wrong cause reasons! Lalalala! Can't hear you!

 

Enough of that. If you expect anyone to take you seriously, you need to be open to the idea you could be wrong. I'm certainly open to the idea that I may be wrong. As it stands, however, I never thought I wasn't moving fast enough in a fight. I always thought I was too slow when I was running to the fight or to a down ally. No one is too slow until they have somewhere to be. If you're right where you ought to be with no where to go, speed becomes a non-issue. Hell, even with the Vanguard I find myself to often feel too slow. If only I was a little faster, I might have been able to rez that guy... Or, if only I was a little faster, that Loki running Marathon and Rush wouldn't have left me in the dust and killed everything outside of affinity share range... I freaking hate pubs. Why do I keep going into random games? There is always this jerk playing solo while everyone else is playing catch up.

 

And to further my point, I'd just like to ask you this... When does Volt usually end up using his Speed ability? Does he ever seem to spam it like no one's business during a fire fight? No? How about when running to a fight? Yeah? Rushing to pickup that downed ally? Yeah? Seems to be a pattern, doesn't it?

 

I will say this, though. Mobility is definitely a boon in the new Interception mode on Earth. However, this is mostly because your team gets split up and someone eventually goes down. High mobility players are the life line the rest of the team counts on when this happens... As for a slow Rhino... You... Just keep sitting on D, buddy. Alone... By yourself... Cause it'll take forever to get down to A... And by then they'll be rezzed by the Zephyr... And then you have to walk aaaall the way back up... Eyup...

 

And this is why I use the Vanguard helmet when I Rhino. +25% speed is all it takes to go from soloing in a group of four to being a team player.

 

PS. Time Played; 319:23:10.

If you really need to ask how speed effects balance, you need to leave this thread, and never post feedback in this section ever again. Its @(*()$ obvious, and if you can't understand, why are you trying to post feedback about it?

[ObviousLee]

If you really need to ask how speed effects balance, you need to leave this thread, and never post feedback in this section ever again. Its @(*()$ obvious, and if you can't understand, why are you trying to post feedback about it?

well IF it's SO obvious, then please, by ALL MEANS spell it out, in case someone DOESN'T get it. Off the high horse with you and join the COMMUNITY.

[ObviousLee]

You never answered my question. Come back when you've thought up an answer for my question. You also ignored most of the rest of my post. I urge you to go back and read that too.

 

to answer your questions first: rhino's only weakness......speed eh? yes he gets a 25% boost. Which makes me go faster, and hit weaker. my abilities, my armor, my damage, all of it, deals LESS damage.

 

lemme break it down for ya: less damage

less armor

less life expectancy

 

pro's: run faster:zoooooooooom

get to allies faster

get to targets faster

provide aid faster

provide support faster

 

IF a player is rushing to the end, it doesn't matter WHICH fast frame they are using. that's player mentality:get to the end, finish, go again.

 

that is NOT the fault of the gear, that is the fault of the player. the guns dont make hallway heroes, players do.

 

and simply put, just because after a lot of work, or money, mods, and a helmet ONE frame gets tied for fastest with another, is no reason to bring out the torches.

 

this ENTIRE ISSUE is being treated like anyone who is defending it(me) needs to be tried for freaking witchcraft. CALM YOURSELVES, and lets DISCUSS this, WITHOUT the asinine nonsense and egotistical bigotry shall we?

 

my simple belief is this: if you spend work, time, money, and effort to make something faster, and it takes a large amount of time, work, or money, then it SHOULD be achievable.

 

my phage, for example, has SIX forma in it. it does over 22 thousand damage per second. is that OP? should i NOT be able to achieve that? is it not my choice, as a player, to select and utilize whatever i have at my disposal, for whatever reason i decide?

 

 

if i decide to put no armor mods on any of my frames, does that mean im playing the game wrong?

 

if i decided to go sidearm only, am i wrong?

 

 

this issue, is simply put, about preference: does a player want to go fast, or hit hard? does a player want to fly through the air? or teleport with an enemy, causing confusion amongst enemy forces? Or mayhaps encase his allies in a sphere of ice to protect his allies, but that being the only move equipped due to a unique loadout? these are all player choices, and although some items/abilities/stats must ALWAYS be ready to be adjusted, however overpowered items/stats/abilities must be fully examined and ALL aspects of gameplay must be considered.

 

people have mentioned game mods where speed is relevant to the situation of reviving a downed ally: defense/survival/mobile defense, as well as game mods where speed is relevant to reviving downed players, and cutting off targets escape routs, or clearing up a horde of enemies that someone with weaker weapons or abilities cannot hold: mobile defense/capture missions.

 

 

the player SHOULD be able to have a plethora of options for each mission he/she wishes to tackle, and soon one of them, the vanguard helmet will NO LONGER HAVE STATS ON IT, so for ALL NEW players this option is eliminated completely, and a bp will be released to CONVERT the helmet into a statless version which again, is a CHOICE. Should you decide to not change it over, then thats up to you, and not i, nor ANYONE else has the right to say otherwise.

 

I've seen a lot of Gestapo attitude towards anyone who says anything to the contrary about anything said in general, and it not only saddens me, but it disappoints me as well because honestly, i expect much better from a lot of you, namely you burrito. i've seen your posts, and for the most part have agreed with you, however in this case you've come off more than rude for no apparent reason other than i disagree with you.

 

 

you've all been reading this, so you know my stance on the vanguard helmet: the choice will be yours, go statless, or keep the stats. no matter which way you dice it, the choice is yours, which the developers gave you. DO NOT try to take something from someone just because you're ok with giving it up. others aren't. i really dont mind as i don't play my rhino hardly ever, but i still want my speed option to remain available should i get the urge.

[SquirmyBurrito]

well IF it's SO obvious, then please, by ALL MEANS spell it out, in case someone DOESN'T get it. Off the high horse with you and join the COMMUNITY.

 

You do know there are things like bold and italics and underline if you want to emphasize words...

[ObviousLee]

You do know there are things like bold and italics and underline if you want to emphasize words...

fair enough. shall consider from now on.

[SquirmyBurrito]

-snip-

 

>Still didn't answer my question.

>Still thinks -5% power strength means anything.

>Bringing up weapon builds.

>Still doesn't seem to understand what the thread is about.

>"does a player want to go fast, or hit hard?"

>Must be trolling.

0/10 please take your trolling else where.

 

If you are serious, say so and I will make a proper reply. I seriously can't tell.

Edited March 24, 2014 by SquirmyBurrito

[ObviousLee]

>Still didn't answer my question.

>Still thinks -5% power strength means anything.

>Bringing up weapon builds.

>Still doesn't seem to understand what the thread is about.

>"does a player want to go fast, or hit hard?"

>Must be trolling.

0/10 please take your trolling else where.

officially stating you are not worth the time or effort in speaking to, while also dodging any statements that DO answer your inane questions.

 

response so bad im upvoting it out of pity.

Edited March 24, 2014 by ObviousLee

[SquirmyBurrito]

officially stating you are not worth the time or effort in speaking to, while also dodging any statements that DO answer your inane questions.

response so bad im upvoting it out of pity.

So are you saying you were serious in that huge wall of [expunged]? I seriously thought you were trolling. In that case I'll give you a proper reply.

Thanks for the upvote, though.

Edited March 24, 2014 by SquirmyBurrito

[(PSN)DanteVincent]

I bought mine with platinum back when i started the game, that along with a few others as well, based solely on stats, so, unless they are willing to give me those stats back, i don't accept the removal of those stats, nor you have the right to want them removed from other's helmet, if it bothers you, use the statless one.

 

I do accept excal prime in exchange for my helmet though. ;)

[ObviousLee]

I bought mine with platinum back when i started the game, that along with a few others as well, based solely on stats, so, unless they are willing to give me those stats back, i don't accept the removal of those stats, nor you have the right to want them removed from other's helmet, if it bothers you, use the statless one.

 

I do accept excal prime in exchange for my helmet though. ;)

my excal! >:o

[ajwalker65]

OP, please, don't use Rhino with the Vanguard helmet then.

 

Sheesh, I don't stay up at night worrying over the "balance" in a game. It's a game, for crying out loud. Whether one player has it or not isn't affecting my enjoyment of Warframe in the slightest.

 

Personally I prefer the "look" of the Vanguard helmet on Rhino. The fact that it gives me a little speed boost is great. I don't use rush mods on any of my frames and try to avoid playing with people who rush to the end anyway.

 

My issue is the non-stat helmets costing just as much as the stat helmets. That's what I don't like.

[SquirmyBurrito]

-snip-

 

My question was "Are you one of those people who thinks that balance doesn't matter in a PvE game?"

You still haven't answered it.

You receive +25 sprint speed at the cost of 5% power strength. That equates to -40 damage from an 800 damage ability at base. And for that tiny sacrifice you can boost your Rhino/RhiPri to become the fourth fastest/tied-fastest frame in the game. So (as I've said 101 times now) that is turning his one weakness into a strength. 

 

Now, before you go in another circle and ignore what I just said I'll preemptively pose a question. "If speed isn't Rhino's only drawback, what other drawback does he have?". I'm predicting an answer somewhere along the lines of "he isn't as good at X as [frame that specializes at X to the detriment of other areas]"--and to that I reply: Yeah, he isn't the best in area X, but he is still good at X.

 

5% less damage(-40 damage).

Iron Skin now blocks 1140 damage at base instead of 1200.

-5% power strength isn't making a huge impact on your surviveability. 

 

Pros: 

You don't have any drawbacks/weak areas.

 

Irrelevant.

 

What does effort of acquisition have to do with whether or not a frame should be balanced with the other frames? Frost/Ember/Mag prime are all 'hard' to get, yet all of them have drawbacks. Why shouldn't Rhino and RhiPri also have at least one drawback? Acting as if speed isn't important runs counter to the fact that you're basically defending Vanguard's continued existence. If speed didn't matter (we wouldn't be complaining) it wouldn't matter whether or not vanguard had its stats removed/tweaked.

 

I'm going to ignore this bit about your persecution complex.

 

If that is your belief, why are you so adamantly defending Vanguard? It takes very little effort for all but the lowest tier of players to get, it doesn't cost much platinum, and from what I've seen it is fairly common in alerts. Going by your logic, Vauban needs a huge buff. Because right now he has weak areas, and apparently those aren't needed on anything that takes a bit of 'effort' (read: patience) to acquire.

 

The huge difference between your phage and the vanguard helmet is... You had to level your phage up seven times, you had to level all those mods, and even then the phage's ingrained weak areas are not being erased/turned into strengths. When you mod a weapon, you (if you're smart) mod for its strengths. 

 

Irrelevant.

 

Irrelevant.

 

Irrelevant. Player preference should have nothing to do with whether or not a frame should be balanced with the rest of the frames.

 

Irrelevant. Game mode discussion and how speed affects various situations means little/nothing to the main subject. That being frame balance. Vanguard turns Rhino's weakness into a strength. That is imbalanced and should be fixed. It should either be fixed by having its buff tweaked OR having its nerf increased so that the choice is more inline with a corrputed mod. Now, I don't like the second option because helmets were (from what I can tell) never meant to be at the same level as corrupted mods. But they were clearly given nerfs along side the buffs so that their buffs were not free. Unfortunately in Vanguard's case, that buff is crazy high and costs peanuts. The only reason not to use the vanguard helmet is if you want the stats of the thrak helmet (which also gives +25% to its stat).

 

The conversion should not be optional. A couple reasons why I say this are:

1. It will cause b****ing among the new players who missed out on them. Especially in regards to the Vanguard helmet which drastically changes Rhino.

2. Stat Vanguard will still be imbalanced, therefore the imbalance will still exist.

 

Your persecution complex aside, I am not being rude just because you (or anyone) disagrees with me. If I am being rude it is because the content of your post makes no sense and/or you are ignoring parts of my post (seemingly on purpose) and I have grown tired of repeating myself. I seriously should take MortalSin's advice, you guys really don't see reason.

 

There is no really no choice when it comes to the vanguard helmet. It is simply too powerful.

 

OP, please, don't use Rhino with the Vanguard helmet then.

 

Sheesh, I don't stay up at night worrying over the "balance" in a game. It's a game, for crying out loud. Whether one player has it or not isn't affecting my enjoyment of Warframe in the slightest.

 

Personally I prefer the "look" of the Vanguard helmet on Rhino. The fact that it gives me a little speed boost is great. I don't use rush mods on any of my frames and try to avoid playing with people who rush to the end anyway.

 

My issue is the non-stat helmets costing just as much as the stat helmets. That's what I don't like.

 

If you don't care about balance please leave this thread. The topic of this thread is mostly frame balance and what vanguard does to it.

 

I bought mine with platinum back when i started the game, that along with a few others as well, based solely on stats, so, unless they are willing to give me those stats back, i don't accept the removal of those stats, nor you have the right to want them removed from other's helmet, if it bothers you, use the statless one.

 

I do accept excal prime in exchange for my helmet though. ;)

 

IIRC it states in the terms of use that you are not entitled to any refunds. DE's habit of trying not to tread on people's toes as far as purchased/hard earned items is not required. They could just say "we don't like heavy caliber" and just erase it, without having to refund anyone for their effort or plat spent getting it. 

Edited March 24, 2014 by SquirmyBurrito

[(PSN)DanteVincent]

 

 

IIRC it states in the terms of use that you are not entitled to any refunds. DE's habit of trying not to tread on people's toes as far as purchased/hard earned items is not required. They could just say "we don't like heavy caliber" and just erase it, without having to refund anyone for their effort or plat spent getting it. 

And Im dying to see they pull this card and shoot with a shotgun in their feet.

 

Anyways, thats why I said, if they are to pull this, just release excal prime already so people would accept it better.

[(PSN)DanteVincent]

my excal! >:o

Who doesnt like them primes, lol. :P