How Vanguard Helmet Ruined Rhino

[SquirmyBurrito]

And Im dying to see they pull this card and shoot with a shotgun in their feet.

 

Anyways, thats why I said, if they are to pull this, just release excal prime already so people would accept it better.

 

Yeah, they'd receive a fair bit of backlash. But it is within their power. 

 

Excalibur Prime has nothing to do with this. DE has said the founder's rewards are staying exclusive. Get it through your heads already people (as you can see, I didn't get any of the founder's items. So I'm not just being greedy).

Edited March 24, 2014 by SquirmyBurrito

[(PSN)DanteVincent]

Yeah, they'd receive a fair bit of backlash. But it is within their power. 

 

Excalibur Prime has nothing to do with this. DE has said the founder's rewards are staying exclusive. Get it through your heads already people (as you can see, I didn't get any of the founder's items. So I'm not just being greedy).

Nothing to do with greed, if you never wanted it, good, if you've been brainwashed to see your desires as greed, well, your loss, anyways, scratch the aforementioned, it's what i think but it's off topic; i know what you think and you know what i think, let's leave at it.

 

On topic, if you think they can change something after you paid for it, do know that there are international laws stronger than Eula.

 

Last but not least the weakest thing here is word, international laws are above Eula, and eula is above /lol promise /lol.

 

So rest assured it's way easier for us to see excal prime returning than those stats going away from helmets, i'm stating facts here, not wishful thinking.

[ObviousLee]

*snip*

yes, i Do believe in balance, and although i still believe in being able to make changes to your frame to suit your play style, i do clearly now see your point, and thus agree with you in the regard that the gain, is not offset enough by the loss.

 

 

suggestion: reduce the speed buff to maybe, 10-15% and increase the damage reduction to 8-10%? feelings?

[SquirmyBurrito]

Nothing to do with greed, if you never wanted it, good, if you've been brainwashed to see your desires as greed, well, your loss, anyways, scratch the aforementioned, it's what i think but it's off topic; i know what you think and you know what i think, let's leave at it.

 

On topic, if you think they can change something after you paid for it, do know that there are international laws stronger than Eula.

 

Last but not least the weakest thing here is word, international laws are above Eula, and eula is above /lol promise /lol.

 

So rest assured it's way easier for us to see excal prime returning than those stats going away from helmets, i'm stating facts here, not wishful thinking.

 

Off topic: Who said I didn't want Excal Prime? I want him. But I'm not going to beg DE to go against what they said.

 

On topic: What international laws? Cite them. Before you get to play the game DE has you agree to certain things. Those things include their terms of service/terms of use/etc. You basically signed a contract  granting DE the power to do whatever the hell they wanted and not give you a refund. Now, don't take everything I'm saying as 100% correct, because I am far to lazy to go back and re-read the documents to find out what is said where.

No, it isn't. You aren't entitled to anything. Hell, DE could delete your account right after you purchase prime access if they wanted. They have full control of 'your' account. Its in their documents. I recommend you familiarize yourself with their legal documents before you try to bring up 'international laws'.

[AscendantWyvern]

I agree, as it stands, without Vanguard, Rhino would be considered balanced in my eyes. Powerful and tough, but slow. 

 

The vanguard could either use a nerf, or it could use a stat wipe like all the other helmets.

[ObviousLee]

I agree, as it stands, without Vanguard, Rhino would be considered balanced in my eyes. Powerful and tough, but slow. 

 

The vanguard could either use a nerf, or it could use a stat wipe like all the other helmets.

all helms with stats are being retired, and re-released without stats, those of us who have it already will have the option of turning it into a statless helm. i wont be doing it because i cannot be bothered to alter a helmet to a frame i no longer really play, at all. but i do support the notion of changing the stats in some way to something more balanced, as le squirmy pointed out to me the precise issue, and one i honestly cannot argue against and still call myself logical.

[SquirmyBurrito]

yes, i Do believe in balance, and although i still believe in being able to make changes to your frame to suit your play style, i do clearly now see your point, and thus agree with you in the regard that the gain, is not offset enough by the loss.

 

 

suggestion: reduce the speed buff to maybe, 10-15% and increase the damage reduction to 8-10%? feelings?

 

I would agree with your suggested changes (for now). I'd have to do the little bit of math to see how exactly that would change his stats and how that lines up with other frames before I gave my stamp of approval... but its not like anyone needs/wants it.

 

IMO, helmets should stick to buffing strengths rather than trying to make up for weaknesses. But I don't see going over too well with the rhino crowd.

[Techno_Panda]

I agree, as it stands, without Vanguard, Rhino would be considered balanced in my eyes. Powerful and tough, but slow. 

 

The vanguard could either use a nerf, or it could use a stat wipe like all the other helmets.

 

I agree completely.

 

I get the argurmenet "Wai nirf rhoni, it pve gaem where we kill fings and stuf"

 

Thats not the point, if everyone has a roll then the game feels more fun.  Instead of a speed rhino zooming around and doing everything.

[ObviousLee]

I would agree with your suggested changes (for now). I'd have to do the little bit of math to see how exactly that would change his stats and how that lines up with other frames before I gave my stamp of approval... but its not like anyone needs/wants it.

 

IMO, helmets should stick to buffing strengths rather than trying to make up for weaknesses. But I don't see going over too well with the rhino crowd.

idk, a damage buff to the already damage buffing roar might be.....idk.......but the majority of the playerbase really seems to dislike the stats, and therefore i can safely assume most will decrease it's use and sight, but still, im not sure what the math would come out to(kinda really drunk and baked right now) but if a healthy, happy balance can be attained then i shall be pleased. for it pains me when discord spreads 'cross the forums like the pestilence that is the canadian goose..........

[kaboomonme]

DE, in the name of balance, please remove the stats from ALL helmets when the time comes. Helmet stats ruined the balance in Rhino, and continue to disrupt other frames. A tank frame as fast as the weak guy is just wrong. Just imagine Heavy running around with Scout in TF2. Its just not right.

Edit: inb4 "Fast paced ninja game", "It is in the future in space, anything is possible", or "rhino fstr than me pls nerf"

This isn't a nerf thread. This is a plea for balance.

Once upon a time, heavy could run just as fast as scout.

That was patched out really soon though.

Completely agree with OP. I have a lot of helmets, but I'd rather they wipe all the stats for the sake of balance, instead of being afraid of whiners. Whiners gonna whine.

 

Edited March 24, 2014 by kaboomonme

[SquirmyBurrito]

idk, a damage buff to the already damage buffing roar might be.....idk.......but the majority of the playerbase really seems to dislike the stats, and therefore i can safely assume most will decrease it's use and sight, but still, im not sure what the math would come out to(kinda really drunk and baked right now) but if a healthy, happy balance can be attained then i shall be pleased. for it pains me when discord spreads 'cross the forums like the pestilence that is the canadian goose..........

 

Same here, I'm neither drunk nor baked but I'm feeling way too lazy to sit down and do a little math right now. Since I now avoid my Rhino (he and Loki are really close for my most played frame and I refuse to let that title go to Rhino). Honestly, I would much rather see a helmet that buffs power strength (or duration) than one that buffs his speed.

[ObviousLee]

Same here, I'm neither drunk nor baked but I'm feeling way too lazy to sit down and do a little math right now. Since I now avoid my Rhino (he and Loki are really close for my most played frame and I refuse to let that title go to Rhino). Honestly, I would much rather see a helmet that buffs power strength (or duration) than one that buffs his speed.

my new love is zephyr, followed up by valkyr(i dont use hysteria or the shield thingie, just ripline, thats it.) and on the rarest of occasions maybe my vauban or frost prime. volt i have not touched since U8, and rhino.........almost as long.

 

 

lazines rules.

[SuperWeedy-EGT-]

Rhinos weakness is that he isnt specialized in something, hes just an allrounder. Granted he has high defense stats, at "endgame" they become obselete though anyways.  This becomes apparent in long survivals and defenses when other frames are way better choices. Why do people always want something good nerfed though? I have played Rhino/Prime less than 1% out of almost 700h, but for everyone thats likes playing him they should be able to run fast, who even cares? Its not OP, its not gamebreaking, just nice to have and the game is supposed to be fun right? Its good for the team too so we dont have to wait at extraction.

[kaboomonme]

 

if i want to make my frame go fast, REALLY fast, im GOING to have to make a sacrifice, or two minimum. what YOU all seem to want, is a cookie cutter mold in which all frames play a specific way and thats it.

Hmm...

Should I play as a Rhino that is fast, or a Rhino that is slow?
I don't see the element of choice being played out here, other than people picking the second option purely to spite the blatant advantage of that damned helmet.

Edited March 24, 2014 by kaboomonme

[Riasiru]

The OP does not wish to debate this point. If your view differs from his own then please take your opinion else where. They don't want to hear it and they certainly are not capable of reasoning this out like an adult. He has shown this quite clearly in his refusal to provide just reasoning against the things I have said. I have no doubt DE will see this immature behavior and will likely dismiss the topic.

[Monolake]

The OP does not wish to debate this point. If your view differs from his own then please take your opinion else where. They don't want to hear it and they certainly are not capable of reasoning this out like an adult. He has shown this quite clearly in his refusal to provide just reasoning against the things I have said. I have no doubt DE will see this immature behavior and will likely dismiss the topic.

According to you 'speed doesn't matter, thats why Rhino should remain one of the fastest frames' right?  This is called hypocrisy. 

[Agranesh]

Why do people even think speed should be a weakness? In a PvE game all his slower base speed means is that his team will kill everything before he gets there unless they wait around for him. Realistically DE should have all the frames have the same sprint speed but with vastly different walking speeds.

[Zkorp]

it was just the 25% that was a really really bad game design choice. Even a totally noobish game designer can't give such an huge boost to one frame and give 10 % to the other at the expense of.. nothing (barely).

 

25% don't compensate a drawback it change completely the starting concept of a slow frame... Completely.

Strangely this very good game is full of this kind of game breaking weird and noobish game design decision : sniper aura, steel charge, gambit helmet are some crying samples...

[AscendantWyvern]

Why do people even think speed should be a weakness? In a PvE game all his slower base speed means is that his team will kill everything before he gets there unless they wait around for him. Realistically DE should have all the frames have the same sprint speed but with vastly different walking speeds.

Let's say all warframes obtain the same sprint speed. Then what would Rhino need to sacrifice for balance? Without a sacrifice in speed, Rhino has no downside. With that in mind, he either gets nerfed in some other area that makes him stand out less as the "be all end all choice", or everyone else gets turned into "flying brick" status and effectively the different frames become skins.

[Agranesh]

Let's say all warframes obtain the same sprint speed. Then what would Rhino need to sacrifice for balance? Without a sacrifice in speed, Rhino has no downside. With that in mind, he either gets nerfed in some other area that makes him stand out less as the "be all end all choice", or everyone else gets turned into "flying brick" status and effectively the different frames become skins.

By giving him a slow walk speed, so when he's in the thick of it aiming, shooting, meleeing, etc he's moving at a slow pace. While the Volts and Lokis could still be zipping around at practically sprint speed, representing them being fast, agile frames.

Think of it as mounting in MMOs, you wouldn't want any of your players arriving to the fight later just because of the class they picked would you? But once in fights it's pretty common the the roguish classes to have more mobility.

[LazyKnight]

Should I play as a Rhino that is fast, or a Rhino that is slow?

I don't see the element of choice being played out here,

There isn't a choice in modifying a Rhino speed with either mods or helmet. The speed .9 frames are slower than everything  (they can't even kite infested...) and there is no reason to ever use the default speed of either Frost (unless camping) or Rhino.

 

 

Let's say all warframes obtain the same sprint speed. Then what would Rhino need to sacrifice for balance? Without a sacrifice in speed, Rhino has no downside.

Sprint speed is a not a balance mechanic that should be used for non-powers. People only rush to the objective and in defense people do not move around. This is not a PVP game where basic mobility speed works for evasion, any hit-scan unit will peg you no matter how fast you can move.  

 

If Loki and ash get highest speed while invisible, that would be a balance mechanic that would serve the function of giving them a blitz-mode. All speed should be attached to powers, like Volt's speed boost, and it should not be attached to the stamina system.

The two cloaking units are supposed to being using their speed when cloaked.

 

Incase anyone misunderstands: All Warframes should have a sprint speed of 1, and powers give them temporary bonus speed to either themselves or the group. There shouldn't be frames that are .9 speed, because there is nothing inherently durable about Rhino or Frost without their respected powers. They nerfed the armor equation, and the armor for the frames is lower than it was in damage 1.0. Only a Warframe with over 600-1200 armor are actually durable enough to be balanced for their defense.

Edited March 24, 2014 by LazyKnight

[Wiegraf]

I get what OP means. It's a thing when an helmet is a conscious choice to gain a perk for a loss and most helmets merely scrambles the stats around somewhat without really giving out a clear pro for a negligible con.

 

However, the Vanguard helmet does : it gives Rhino speed he wasn't meant to have for a pitiful 5% loss on power damage. This isn't an helmet you put on Rhino weighting if the con is worthwhile, it's an helmet that once you've crafted or bought it, you NEVER take off. It's no longer a customisation option, it's a necessity.

 

Either tone down the speed increase or amplify the Power Strength malus; the speed gain FAR outweights the power strength loss right now. Or some other mean to adjust the helmet so that while it could make Rhino fast, the downside is equally noticeable.

[(PSN)DanteVincent]

Once upon a time, heavy could run just as fast as scout.

That was patched out really soon though.

Completely agree with OP. I have a lot of helmets, but I'd rather they wipe all the stats for the sake of balance, instead of being afraid of whiners. Whiners gonna whine.

 

Funny thing, from where i stand you asking for nerfs are playing the whiners role, dont get me wrong, i am not an anti-nerf guy, but in this particular case i just think it is ridiculous, like i said, you are not willing to give up something you paid for like your excal prime, should i call you a whiner too?

 

Double standards everywhere in here.

[LazyKnight]

Either tone down the speed increase or amplify the Power Strength mauls; the speed gain FAR outweighs the power strength loss right now. Or some other mean to adjust the helmet so that while it could make Rhino fast, the downside is equally noticeable.

Scott is already going to remove the stats on the helm and this is only going to have an outcome of new player being forced to use the Rush mod as a mandatory slotted item instead. Speed is a requirement when all other frames have a higher default speed, and no one wants to wait for the slowpoke. Speed should not be a balance mechanic when it will have the 3 other player finish the assassination mission before a rhino player with .9 speed could get there in time to participate.

 

I would like to see DE redesign Rhino's charge skill into Volt like speed boost for himself. Rhino will need something as a means of mobility enhancement to give new player the ability to keep up with a group.

Edited March 24, 2014 by LazyKnight

[Wiegraf]

Scott is already going to remove the stats on the helm and this is only going to have an outcome of new player being forced to use the Rush mod as a mandatory slotted item instead. Speed is a requirement when all other frames have a higher default speed, and no one wants to wait for the slowpoke. Speed should not be a balance mechanic when it will have the 3 other player finish the assassination mission before a rhino player with .9 speed could get there in time to participate.

 

I would like to see DE redesign Rhino's charge skill into Volt like speed boost for himself. Rhino will need something as a means of mobility enhancement to give new player the ability to keep up with a group.

 

Good then; so what will be done for Frost since he also happens to have a run speed of 0.9?

 

In fact, something funny I just thought of while typing the previous sentence : extend the range of Ice Wave, make it so the surface it runs along turns it into ice and Frost can 'skate' or sprint faster while on it. Any enemy on it gets slowed in the same manner than the ice patches in the void, the amount of slow down dependent on the skill level.

 

Ice Wave now has a dual use as a mobility power and slight crowd control.