How Vanguard Helmet Ruined Rhino

[Monolake]

To people who still have trouble understanding how speed-vs-tankiness(=ability to withstand damage) works and why it should be balanced (and is balanced like this in most games):

Its about survivability first of all: you either have no tankiness and have to dodge  - you need speed, or you have passive survivability via stats and skills - you dont need to dodge, dont need speed. Other classes have neither speed nor tankiness - they have to use CC to survive (ie Booben).

These are just universal basics regardless of a game.

 

Vanguard Rhino enjoys all 3 advantages: speed, tankiness (stats+ability), CC ability. That makes him imbalanced compared to other frames. 

 

 

Thats not talking about many other advantages of Speed in WF in specific mission types. 

Edited March 25, 2014 by Monolake

[Riasiru]

I really don't think anyone should be bringing up the "it's fun" argument. That is too subjective to be handled well.

 

I would normally be inclined to agree with you, however in this case it's not really subjective. Being left behind is not fun. Unless you can find a player who enjoys being abandoned, I think we can safely use it objectively in this situation.

 

Oh well. The good news is that when people get frustrated with being left behind, they can always solo... Like it has been said, Rhino is so well rounded that they don't even need a team. Rhino can "do everything." And if he's the only member of the team, the whole speed thing becomes a non-issue. You can't get left behind when you've abandoned any ties with other players.

 

On the other hand... I haven't even been playing Rhino and I've been increasingly sick of people in pubs that I've found myself going solo for every game lately... Maybe it's time I dusted him off and ran around some more. After all, 90% of the time it's just me alone on objective with three hallway heroes off doing who knows what... It's kinda like I'm already playing this game solo.

 

Oh, and I'm going to be running Vanguard. I mean, it'll help me get to those hard to reach places in the void with the good loot canisters, but it isn't about that... It's because you can't stop me. Tee hee. ~♪

Edited March 25, 2014 by Riasiru

[Admiral_Nicksalot]

Well I'm a Thrak Helmet lover so um.. yeah.. Go Thrak!

[LazyKnight]

To people who still have trouble understanding how speed-vs-tankiness(=ability to withstand damage) works and why it should be balanced (and is balanced like this in most games):

Its about survivability first of all: you either have no tankiness and have to dodge  - you need speed, or you have passive survivability via stats and skills - you dont need to dodge, dont need speed.

Grineer can not be dodged and they are hit-scan aim-bots against everything within their LoS (they get more accurate the longer they see you). Corpus and their ilk can be avoided by walking in a zigzag pattern. The only faction the mobility is a provably assets for is infested, because only something with speed that exceeds 1.2? can out run a infested ancient.

 

Sprint speed is not the same as dodging and has never been the same, and drawing a parallel between the two is only going to confuse people. The roll mechanic isn't working any better than the block mechanic. The roll key should function as dodge that has damage mitigation based on the weight of the frame with lighter being better. 

 

Being able to out run stuff only applies to the bombard's missile and nothing else. The bombardier's misses and the napalm discharge can be avoided by sliding. This about the only thing that dodging works on, but due to the AoE splash it is something that gets worse as NPC get stronger. 

Edited March 25, 2014 by LazyKnight

[Riasiru]

Grineer can not be dodged and they are hit-scan aim-bots against everything within their LoS (they get more accurate the longer they see you). Corpus and their ilk can be avoided by walking in a zigzag pattern. The only faction the mobility is a provably assets for is infested, because only something with speed that exceeds 1.2? can out run a infested ancient.

 

Sprint speed is not the same as dodging and has never been the same, and drawing a parallel between the two is only going to confuse people. The roll mechanic isn't working any better than the block mechanic. The roll key should function as dodge that has damage mitigation based on the weight of the frame with lighter being better. 

 

Being able to out run stuff only applies to the bombard's missile and nothing else. The bombardier's misses and the napalm discharge can be avoided by sliding. This about the only thing that dodging works on, but due to the AoE splash it is something that gets worse as NPC get stronger. 

+1 on this!

 

Oh, and fun fact, running away from enemies isn't helpful at all. The Corpus and Infested can both be beaten by casually circle strafing around them. No zig zagging required. Just... Walk to the left or right while slowly rotating your view to target them. Infested will lunge straight, causing them to miss, and corpus's bullets have travel time. (Except the lasers.) Hell, if you're not the host, this even works on Grineer. They aim at where you were instead of where you are. Try it. It works so well that I've unbound my walk backwards button and rebound crouch to the S key instead.

 

Err, forgot to mention. The strafing trick doesn't work (Sometimes it does, but it's fickle.) on Ancients or Shield Grineer... Because reasons?... I guess?

Edited March 25, 2014 by Riasiru

[xkillo32]

Before you rage or flame, or do whatever you forumers do, please read this and understand the viewpoint I am taking.

 

The Vanguard Helmet ruined Rhino. It looks great, but the stats have ruined all that Rhino is. Rhino is supposed to be a slow moving, powerful, tank frame. I often see Rhino filling this role, and carrying the team. His powers are all useful for utility, team buffs, defense, damage, and mobility. His one drawback, based on his original design, was speed. Rhino was slow, until the Vanguard Helmet was created. This removed the one drawback that Rhino had. All frames have a weakness, whether it be speed, low health/shield stats, low energy, etc. Vanguard allows a Rhino to be almost the speed of a Loki, and Rhino Prime is even faster than the normal Rhino! This completely ruins Rhino how he should be, and basically creates the "best" class in the game. 

DE has stated that they plan to make new helmets without stats, but they may leave the stats on the first few helmets. This is a TERRIBLE idea in Rhino's case. Rhino would stay horribly unbalanced, and many Rhino players in the future would be very angry at the fact that they missed the Vanguard Helmet.

 

 

DE, in the name of balance, please remove the stats from ALL helmets when the time comes. Helmet stats ruined the balance in Rhino, and continue to disrupt other frames. A tank frame as fast as the weak guy is just wrong. Just imagine Heavy running around with Scout in TF2. Its just not right.

 

 

Edit: inb4 "Fast paced ninja game", "It is in the future in space, anything is possible", or "rhino fstr than me pls nerf"

 

This isn't a nerf thread. This is a plea for balance.

but it is a nerf thread

by "balancing" the helmets you are nerfing them

[Scryed]

I'm saying this as a vanguard rhino user too : in my opinion ALL the stat on helmets should go, even the existing ones.

Helmets should be an aesthetical choice, nothing else. And especially not a balance breaker.

I think all of YOUR helmets should go, the ones I built are staying so eff you, that is YOUR opinion

[genclaymore]

I think all of YOUR helmets should go, the ones I built are staying so eff you, that is YOUR opinion

I agree if they  after the stats on the helmets are gone and they go back and remove the one on mine, I will simply stop giving them any more of my money like I been doing here and there. I will still play but I wont spend any more money there for voting with my wallet, I don't accept Bait and switch tactics. The major thing they should be doing is fixing the exploit with the Zoren's and fixing the other warframes that need to be improved like ash for starters.

Edited March 25, 2014 by genclaymore

[SquirmyBurrito]

I paid for the helmets I have, with the exception of one, with REAL money because they (A): looked good AND (B.) had stats that I found favorable.

 

If DE wants to have purely cosmetic stats going forward, fine, but I paid real money for the helmets I do have and NO, I would not be in favor of any sort of "stat wipe" unless what they were offering was a better value in my opinion.

 

But to do it because a few players and the OP are complaining about "balance" in a game (it's a GAME for crying out loud), I am NOT in favor of.

 

Wrong. You paid real money for platinum. If you think we (those complaining) are few in number you're blinding yourself. "its a game" does not excuse it from balancing its characters. Actually, it is because it is a game that balance is important.

 

I would normally be inclined to agree with you, however in this case it's not really subjective. Being left behind is not fun. Unless you can find a player who enjoys being abandoned, I think we can safely use it objectively in this situation.

 

Oh well. The good news is that when people get frustrated with being left behind, they can always solo... Like it has been said, Rhino is so well rounded that they don't even need a team. Rhino can "do everything." And if he's the only member of the team, the whole speed thing becomes a non-issue. You can't get left behind when you've abandoned any ties with other players.

 

On the other hand... I haven't even been playing Rhino and I've been increasingly sick of people in pubs that I've found myself going solo for every game lately... Maybe it's time I dusted him off and ran around some more. After all, 90% of the time it's just me alone on objective with three hallway heroes off doing who knows what... It's kinda like I'm already playing this game solo.

 

Oh, and I'm going to be running Vanguard. I mean, it'll help me get to those hard to reach places in the void with the good loot canisters, but it isn't about that... It's because you can't stop me. Tee hee. ~♪

 

Again, that is subjective. I enjoyed playing with the thrak helmet, I could care less whether or not I was left behind. The objective didn't change locations just because my teammates got their first (if they even got there before me. I didn't ignore charge). So I guess my indifference towards the subject works as a counter to your 'its fun/not fun' argument. Fun is subjective, please leave it out of your arguments.

 

Hopefully DE puts their game designer pants on and actually squashes this imbalance.

 

Grineer can not be dodged and they are hit-scan aim-bots against everything within their LoS (they get more accurate the longer they see you). Corpus and their ilk can be avoided by walking in a zigzag pattern. The only faction the mobility is a provably assets for is infested, because only something with speed that exceeds 1.2? can out run a infested ancient.

 

Sprint speed is not the same as dodging and has never been the same, and drawing a parallel between the two is only going to confuse people. The roll mechanic isn't working any better than the block mechanic. The roll key should function as dodge that has damage mitigation based on the weight of the frame with lighter being better. 

 

Being able to out run stuff only applies to the bombard's missile and nothing else. The bombardier's misses and the napalm discharge can be avoided by sliding. This about the only thing that dodging works on, but due to the AoE splash it is something that gets worse as NPC get stronger. 

 

Wrong. The Grineer (despite being aimbots) can be avoided. They seem to have inaccuracy programmed into them. For clarification, I am avoiding their aim, not their hitscan 'projectiles'.

 

Corpus have a habit of grouping up and unleashing bullet hell. This makes a simple zigzag pattern incapable of protecting you from every shot (I tend to play the squishier frames, so one shot is a big deal).

 

And none of this even matters since this is a discussion on the simplest of things. That being frame balance. You can try and downplay speed's importance all you want. But it doesn't change the fact that slow sprint speed is rhino's ONLY weak area. You claiming that speed doesn't matter anyway doesn't change this. If anything, that gives me grounds to claim that Rhino needs to be nerfed in more areas than just his speed.

 

Edit: You really can't have both. Either speed matters and something needs to be done about the speed issue (this going either way). Or speed isn't important, so Rhino needs to be nerfed so he has a proper drawback.

 

I agree if they  after the stats on the helmets are gone and they go back and remove the one on mine, I will simply stop giving them any more of my money like I been doing here and there. I will still play but I wont spend any more money there for voting with my wallet, I don't accept Bait and switch tactics. The major thing they should be doing is fixing the exploit with the Zoren's and fixing the other warframes that need to be improved like ash for starters.

 

If helmets were enough to get you to spend money on platinum I doubt you'll be able to resist purchasing more platinum in the future.

Edited March 25, 2014 by SquirmyBurrito

[LazyKnight]

Wrong. The Grineer (despite being aimbots) can be avoided. They seem to have inaccuracy programmed into them. For clarification, I am avoiding their aim, not their hitscan 'projectiles'.

I do know how they work. They seem to have a built in time to focuses their aiming along with a delay in adjusting to slight movements. I spent a lot of time playing with the Grineer to see how they track me.

 

This result in it only being possible to have them miss at a certain distance because you have to be able to fully clear the distance their gun reticle can travel before a shot is fired. This is only something that works at 30-40 meter, and only when moving perpendicular to their position.

 

 

Corpus have a habit of grouping up and unleashing bullet hell. This makes a simple zigzag pattern incapable of protecting you from every shot (I tend to play the squishier frames, so one shot is a big deal).

Are you a hypocrite? You're claiming that speed matters and yet you can not even dodge the slow motion corpus. I knew you would say that, so what is your point? Sprint speed is a function of traveling and nothing more is gained from having high speed.

 

And none of this even matters since this is a discussion on the simplest of things. That being frame balance. You can try and downplay speed's importance all you want. But it doesn't change the fact that slow sprint speed is rhino's ONLY weak area. You claiming that speed doesn't matter anyway doesn't change this. If anything, that gives me grounds to claim that Rhino needs to be nerfed in more areas than just his speed.

Lets be clear on one thing: 'Sprint speed' is the worst balance mechanic that DE could possible have chosen to use as a Warframe benchmark tool. 

 

The dodge mechanic needs to be fixed along with fluidity of movements of tumble of the lighter frames. This is something that is required if mobility is ever to be a factor for balance; and a working dodge skill is something that DE needs to deliver on for there to ever be point in using melee.

 

Most games have a dodge with an invulnerability frames that allow you to time moments and have payoffs of avoiding the damage. This is something that Ash and Loki and just about every other Warframes desperately needs. Heavy frames like Rhino, and the other mid weight frames, shouldn't be able to tumble or they should have their block function balanced for their size.

 

I said explicitly that all Warframes should have 1 for speed. Sprint speed is something that get you from point 'a' to point 'b' and this is exceeding valuable for melee.  I have played this game countless hours and all I only ever see people do is rush from 'a' to 'b' and never dodge anything, and just stand there while soaking up damage.

 

 

  If anything, that gives me grounds to claim that Rhino needs to be nerfed in more areas than just his speed.

 

Rhino has one of the lowest damaging '1' and '4' skill, but his '4' is broken because duration doesn't affect it, allowing power efficiency to be stacked without cost for CC. If that was fixed you wouldn't see people use him for high level runs anymore because the cost of upkeep would become too expensive for a minimalistic gain.

 

 

Edit: You really can't have both. Either speed matters and something needs to be done about the speed issue (this going either way). Or speed isn't important, so Rhino needs to be nerfed so he has a proper drawback.

Speed matter for melee, I have said Rhino ranks 3 or 4 overall for melee use. Melee uses speed as distance closer, but not for anything other than that. The Fury mod is a greater influence in melee effectiveness once the distance is closed. If you have a gun there is no point closing the distance beyond minimum range for the weapon type. Offense for sprint speed is purely a melee distance closing device, that ranged user need not bother with.

 

Speed doesn't matter for dodging or gunplay because of the way NPC work in this game. If you want to argue this you're only going to make a fool out of yourself, because there is no way to gain any reliability in using sprint speed as an on demand mechanism for defense. The only thing it can be used for reliably is to escape, and that is the sum of it.

 

 

 Actually, it is because it is a game that balance is important.

You haven't been able to prove at any point that any amount of speed will give someone a combat advantage as dodging mechanic. If you think balance simply means making the rouge faster than the tank, then you have a rather simplistic view of class structure.

 

Waframe's mobility should be balanced on the effectiveness of their dodge window or block strength. As this is measurable and balanceable by someone like Scott and useable by players of all warframes.

Edited March 25, 2014 by LazyKnight

[XAN3MK]

LazyKnight hit the nail on the head like 3(?) pages ago yet the thread is still going. Because eff logic.

[Warlord1400]

1. Rhino Charge should have puncture dmg. b'cuz of the horn lol.

2. Why doesn't Trinity get any love? Ppl spam blessing and that's it :p

3. Rhino is OP and bland. I won't consider getting him, let alone a prime.

4. Trinity Prime

5. Valkyr Wraith/Vandal

6. Why do we need Loki Prime

7. Rhino, Rhino, Rhino... why are you so famous? You are like batman, but better :). Plus your abilities are simple...too simple. Everyone just spams Iron Skin and call it a day, or a mission.

8. Valkyr needs Hysteria tweaked. Give it a charge attack and a new animation :D

9. Banshee's Silence wins again as the Worst Ability in the game D: :|. Add on to it and make it so that people's aim are depleted ten fold(i just wanted to say that), making the enemies guns practically useless.

10. Oberon isn't that versatile. Smite = Soul Punch. Renewal = Blessing.

11. Can the primes have at least 1 different ability or at least better stats? Or even just a damage buff. Prime weapons get extra damage, why not a frame?

 

What I am trying to say is... so many things need tweaked, nerfed, buffed, and revamped. DE, I don't care how long it takes, just as long as your doing something about it.

[Warlord1400]

I agree if they  after the stats on the helmets are gone and they go back and remove the one on mine, I will simply stop giving them any more of my money like I been doing here and there. I will still play but I wont spend any more money there for voting with my wallet, I don't accept Bait and switch tactics. The major thing they should be doing is fixing the exploit with the Zoren's and fixing the other warframes that need to be improved like ash for starters.

1. Ash? Throw a mid-level Vitality on him and your set. but to be serious, he is quite lackluster. After using Blade Storm 100 times it gets boring, let alone using it on high levels. Practically he gets useless in higher levels.

2. What is your problem?

3. DE can do whatever they want. Your playing this game, this awesome piece of work, for free. respect them and their efforts.

4. Why the hell is everyone whining over a fast Rhino? That's awesome!

Edited March 25, 2014 by Warlord1400

[SquirmyBurrito]

-snip-

 

I don't know the exact distance needed for this strategy to work so I'll take your word for it. I tend to keep a healthy bit of distance between myself and my enemies at all times.

 

No, I am not a hypocrite. Why do you ask? I take it you missed the part where I directly referred to their habit of grouping up. It isn't the lone moa that can hit me, its the huge crowds that make dodging hard. This would become more of a problem for slower frames who can't clear the cover enough distance to get out of the way. This also applies to slow frames versus grineer.

 

In your opinion. I agree with the bit on fluidity though.

 

I agree.

 

And I disagree with that idea. I too have played this game for countless hours. I do rush, but when in a fire fight I also focus on dodging/avoiding enemy fire. Do not act as if your experiences are true of everyone.

 

His first skill is best used for mobility, and his ult is best used for CC.

 

I don't disagree with this, but I'm not sure I 100% agree with the bit about rhino being 3-4 best for melee. I know Loki, Ash, and Excalibur are in the top three spots, but I would have expected frames like Saryn, Valkyr, and Trinity to come next. Not Rhino. This is assuming that we're taking abilities into account. 

 

I use sprinting for quick circle strafing and getting behind cover. It hasn't let me down yet so I'd say its pretty damn reliable.

 

If you say so. I'll be over here looking at my opinion.

 

I've already pointed out (and you reinforced) that speed can be used to aim-dodge the grineer. It can also be used to kite the infested (or any disarmed enemy). It can also be used to put move between cover. It also does wonders against the crowds of corpus. It also has non-combat applications. 

 

To sum this up in one simple question:

What is Rhino's stat drawback/weakness/weak area?

[kaboomonme]

Well I'm a Thrak Helmet lover so um.. yeah.. Go Thrak!

This man right here.

 

 

I use sprinting for quick circle strafing and getting behind cover. It hasn't let me down yet so I'd say its pretty damn reliable.

 

If you say so. I'll be over here looking at my opinion.

 

I've already pointed out (and you reinforced) that speed can be used to aim-dodge the grineer. It can also be used to kite the infested (or any disarmed enemy). It can also be used to put move between cover. It also does wonders against the crowds of corpus. It also has non-combat applications. 

Dodging and using cover is a lost art. It doesn't apply to a lot of players any more than "finishing missions faster"

Edited March 25, 2014 by kaboomonme

[RealPandemonium]

I think people are somehow forgetting that no matter how slow your frame's run speed is you can just equip a copter weapon and go fast anyway.  I have taken my Frost on Vault runs with a hobbled key equipped, no Rush mod, and a 1.3 base speed weapon (plus Fury) and have not only kept up, but was consistently ahead of the group for most of the runs.  People also overlook that there are plenty of places on the maps where you can wall-jump to increase your travel speed considerably.  Mastering the movement and parkour elements of this game to traverse the maps in an efficient and elegant way is one of the coolest things about this game but people just want to waste a slot on Rush and hold shift all game. 

Edited March 25, 2014 by RealPandemonium

[LazyKnight]

No, I am not a hypocrite. Why do you ask? I take it you missed the part where I directly referred to their habit of grouping up. It isn't the lone moa that can hit me, its the huge crowds that make dodging hard. This would become more of a problem for slower frames who can't clear the cover enough distance to get out of the way. This also applies to slow frames versus grineer.

For Grineer it is many times more effective to break line of sight with them to force them to reacquire it. This is one faction that it simply better to force them to go into either the reload animation or walk animation by LoS manipulation. No amount of speed is rational way to deal with Grineer, find a nee-high wall and hide.

 

Corpus have a spawn setup that almost always have them surround a player. A single corpus unit can easily be evaded, but because of the way that bullets coming from multiple angles with a group, it makes dodging a mutually exclusive decision that will end up having you enter the hit-box of one of the NPC's bullets.

 

Infested light units can be dodged by walking.

 

 

I don't disagree with this, but I'm not sure I 100% agree with the bit about rhino being 3-4 best for melee. I know Loki, Ash, and Excalibur are in the top three spots, but I would have expected frames like Saryn, Valkyr, and Trinity to come next. Not Rhino. This is assuming that we're taking abilities into account. 

 

Everything under Loki and Ash is a distant placement. Everything under those two is tied multiple ways for 3rd and 4th placement, depending on personal taste. There is a worthless tier under the tied WF for ones like Oberon that are just squishy and have no good CC.

 

 

I've already pointed out (and you reinforced) that speed can be used to aim-dodge the grineer. It can also be used to kite the infested (or any disarmed enemy). It can also be used to put move between cover. It also does wonders against the crowds of corpus. It also has non-combat applications

You can mess up the aim of one Grineer, but not plural (because of requirements of messing up their aim), and not every type of Grineer. Again it is a waste of time to do anything other than hide behind something.

 

 

What is Rhino's stat drawback/weakness/weak area?

His skill damage is his weakness.

 

His charge skill does pathetic damage and its distance is affected by power duration for distance traveled. The only builds that would use duration are for roar builds, and duration only affects roar and charge. If fleeting expertise is used without narrow-minded charge should never be slotted (it would go a few meters, at most).

 

Stomp's CC needs to be nerfed, but the damage is already bad. It does blast damage and that is only good against ancients and scales horribly because of the low base. If it wasn't for the CC effect there would be no reason to have it equipped.

 

Roar is a poor man's sonar. If the intent is to blow something up, there are better options than using this.

 

Scott is removing Vanguard's stats so you can chalk speed up on the list for new players.

 

Edit: I will do a better response after I sleep.

Edited March 25, 2014 by LazyKnight

[AscendantWyvern]

I paid for the helmets I have, with the exception of one, with REAL money because they (A): looked good AND (B.) had stats that I found favorable.

 

If DE wants to have purely cosmetic stats going forward, fine, but I paid real money for the helmets I do have and NO, I would not be in favor of any sort of "stat wipe" unless what they were offering was a better value in my opinion.

 

But to do it because a few players and the OP are complaining about "balance" in a game (it's a GAME for crying out loud), I am NOT in favor of.

"You did not purchase the helmet with your money. 

 

You purchased it with Platinum that you bought with your money.

 

They have no legal grounds to uphold a refund for a change to a helmet, nor is it a reason for them not to change it, because the product you purchased was not the helmet. If the Platinum was faulty and failed to work as intended, then refunds or actions are permitted to be taken. 

 

If it doesn't change, then the situation revolving around this topic will not change. If it does, you will reserve the right to be &!$$ed off, but you have no legal grounds to take action."

 

I literally said this one page ago. The excuse that "They can't change it because I bought it" is moot! They change weapons and frames all the time, and you can buy them with platinum too.

[AscendantWyvern]

 

His skill damage is his weakness.

 

His charge skill does pathetic damage and its distance is affected by power duration for distance traveled. The only builds that would use this is a roar build and duration only affects roar and charge. If fleeting expertise is used without narrow-minded charge should never be slotted(it would go less than 2 meters).

 

Stomp's CC needs to be nerfed, but the damage is already bad. It does blast damage and that is only good against ancients and scales horribly because of the low base. If it wasn't for the CC effect there would be no reason to have it equipped.

 

Roar is a poor man's sonar. If the intent is to blow something up, there are better options than using this.

 

I think you're focusing on the idea that Rhino is supposed to be a DPS type of frame. 

 

His skill set is largely self/team buffs and enemy CC (rhino charge and rhino stomp). His role is around that of a "brawler" (medium durability, medium damage, high control) The fact that his skillset's damage is low isn't a terrible issue, especially when you can easily set up a rhino stomp to CC an entire room for roughly 10 or so seconds. Rhino has fantastic ability synergy that, coupled with a decent weapon, can shut down a room solo on TIII missions. 

 

Now I stand by my oldest statement saying that Rhino is perfectly balanced without the Vanguard. But let's go ahead and give Rhino that 1.0 sprint speed buff to remove speed as a factor. The best solution then is to lower the damage of everything in order to retain the control. (effectively making the Vanguard permanent) 

 

Then what about Frost? Saryn? Trinity? or on the opposite side of the spectrum we have Loki, Nova (we all LOVE talking balance with Nova), and Valkyr.

 

There's a LOT of dev work to be put into removing speed as a factor. I see your side in this, and I don't think it's wrong, however it doesn't feel like it's entirely worth the amount of effort needed to change it.

[Skaleek]

Before you rage or flame, or do whatever you forumers do

You formers eh? Hate to break it to you 893 posts, you just happen to be one of those "formers". Feel free to convert your helmet to statless. It's a co op game, there's no reason other people need to have your subjective idea of balance forced upon them.

[LazyKnight]

I think you're focusing on the idea that Rhino is supposed to be a DPS type of frame. 

He asked for weakness. I am basically sleep posting right now, I view Rhino as a brute/brawler/warrior. 

 

Then what about Frost? Saryn? Trinity? or on the opposite side of the spectrum we have Loki, Nova (we all LOVE talking balance with Nova), and Valkyr.

There needs to be a comprehensive balance pass done on all the Warfarmes. Some of them are just misfits (Oberon) others are clearly the center of topic daily. The CC and hard defensive powers needs a balance pass to reaffirm that devolvement team wants the players to be able to permanently lock down the Ai, because of the infinite energy available to players.

Edited March 25, 2014 by LazyKnight

[SquirmyBurrito]

-snip-

 

Sprinting out of their LoS is breaking line of sight. So I'm not sure why you even bothered saying that. I've been playing this game a long time, I don't need you trying to tell me what strategies are and what strategies aren't effective against them. Hell, that isn't even related to the main topic. Cut the crap. Apparently what you find rational and what I find rational do not line up, get that through your head already and stop posting under the assumption that you are correct and I am wrong. Its getting really old.

 

They only surround you if you stand still. Wrong. I use sprinting to avoid corpus bullet hell with a high rate of success.

 

Light units aren't the only units.

 

[if the wiki is to be believed] Wrong. Blinded targets (radial blind) also take extra melee damage. Saryn is also capable of buffing her melee damage. Trinity can face-tank at melee range better than Rhino can. And Valkyr is practically made for melee. None of that comes down to personal taste, all of those frames have clear melee advantages.

 

I've grown tired of your habit of asserting that things I do are impossible. I aim-dodge grineer, plural. Speed is/can be used to get from cover to cover. The slower you are the more damage you're going to take.

 

Lack of skill damage isn't a weakness. It is actually one of Loki's strengths. The only way a lack of skill damage would be a viable weakness for Rhino is if the other aspects of his abilities were removed. Rhino Charge (which does higher damage than most other first skills) has great mobility. Roar's buff affect's the frames rather than the enemies so it doesn't need to be recast until the time runs out. Roar is also not area specific so you need not worry about aiming for select locations. Iron Skin provides CC immunity and acts as extra shields on tap, it doesn't do any damage though. Rhino Stomp does 800-1600 blast damage at base and comes equipped with a duration mod ignoring hard cc that has great range. This ability can be modded with overextended (because the damage is not the skills focus IMO) for large range cc, or you could mod down its range to allow for faster recasts.

 

Pathetic damage? It does more damage than Slash Dash, Shuriken (per shuriken), Sonic Boom, Fireball (the initial damage, not the proc), Freeze, Pull, Soul Punch, Null Star (per projectile), Smite (initial attack), Rip Line, Shock, and Tailwind. Very few first abilities actually do as much (initial damage) as Rhino Charge. And Rhino Charge doubles as a great mobility skill. Duration can be fit into most builds. 

 

Stomp's CC more than makes up for the damage.

 

Sonar doesn't come equipped on a frame that has a hard, cast and forget, CC for an ult. I'm not saying Sonar isn't good (because it is) but you're ignoring Banshee's other faults.

 

You formers eh? Hate to break it to you 893 posts, you just happen to be one of those "formers". Feel free to convert your helmet to statless. It's a co op game, there's no reason other people need to have your subjective idea of balance forced upon them.

 

"it's a co-op game" is not a viable excuse for imbalance. If you can't understand that in its most basic form please leave this thread. Its not like you're going to be able to contribute anything constructive.

 

He asked for weakness. I am basically sleep posting right now, I view Rhino as a brute/brawler/warrior. 

 

There needs to be a comprehensive balance pass done on all the Warfarmes. Some of them are just misfits (Oberon) others are clearly the center of topic daily. The CC and hard defensive powers needs a balance pass to reaffirm that devolvement team wants the players to be able to permanently lock down the Ai, because of the infinite energy available to players.

 

His 'low' damage isn't a weakness of his. His charge does more damage than slash dash. Stomp does 800 (800x2 within a certain radius) at base and it puts all affected enemies in a stasis of sorts. 

 

So I'm still waiting on that weakness.

[Riasiru]

For the record, when I said strafing them throws their aim off, I didn't mean you had to sprint... I typically strafe and shoot and you can't shoot while sprinting. 

 

Speed, so unimportant that sprint speed isn't even part of the equation for my grand "dodging" scheme that makes it hilariously hard to take damage. Seriously... I can do void runs with Valkyr and until a Fusion Moa shows up (Dat point blank lazer.) or the crowds grow to insane size (Kind of hard to circle strafe a crowd that has you surrounded.) I won't even have my puny little shields go down.

 

Not running, casually walking left or right.

 

Edit; Listing lazily to the left...

http://www.zideo.nl/playzideo/6b3447556d317878

 

Edit the second; I did some solo void runs and found that the enemy is more than capable of hitting me while listing to the left... Apparently, you can't use this trick while host. So yeah... Use this trick instead! Fire around corners... In fact, below is proof of just how effective this trick is.

 

http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=242023061 <-- You can fire around corners. Notice how this heavy gunner is shooting nothing but wall! Yet I can very clearly still shoot her as my crosshairs are easily able to be positioned somewhere like... her head!

 

http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=242023172 <-- And this is the end result of firing from behind cover. I poked out to go around the corner and found a lot of other strong enemies! Well, after quickly getting back behind the wall I cleaned that up right quick, too.

 

FYI; I didn't sprint behind the wall. I dodge rolled! Also, this is an Excalibur without Rush. Haste without purpose is just panic. Panic is not a strength, it is a weakness. Think I'm going to try this again with a hobbled key equipped. While I'm at it, I'll also remove my shield mod if I have one on. *Checks* I had a R1 Redirect on because I was using a R23 Excalibur... I also had R3 Slash Dash, R4 Narrow Minded, R5 Streamline, R4 Continuity, R3 Super Jump, and an R5 Energy Siphon I didn't even need... None of that is for combat, mind you. Just for cleaning up treasure rooms. Sprint speed would not effect those abilities at all.

Edited March 25, 2014 by Riasiru

[Monolake]

Grineer can not be dodged and they are hit-scan aim-bots against everything within their LoS (they get more accurate the longer they see you). Corpus and their ilk can be avoided by walking in a zigzag pattern. The only faction the mobility is a provably assets for is infested, because only something with speed that exceeds 1.2? can out run a infested ancient.

 

Sprint speed is not the same as dodging and has never been the same, and drawing a parallel between the two is only going to confuse people. The roll mechanic isn't working any better than the block mechanic. The roll key should function as dodge that has damage mitigation based on the weight of the frame with lighter being better. 

 

Being able to out run stuff only applies to the bombard's missile and nothing else. The bombardier's misses and the napalm discharge can be avoided by sliding. This about the only thing that dodging works on, but due to the AoE splash it is something that gets worse as NPC get stronger. 

You don't dodge a bullet, but you avoid other attacks or simply run for cover while your shield gives you time. It does matter big time even in this game vs every faction (and I was talking of general principles regardless of a game). Better mobility = better survivability. 

[Monolake]

I would normally be inclined to agree with you, however in this case it's not really subjective. Being left behind is not fun. Unless you can find a player who enjoys being abandoned, I think we can safely use it objectively in this situation.

 

 

+Another argument for nerfing Vanguard, because being left behind by Vanguard Rhinos is not fun for all the average speed frames.