How Vanguard Helmet Ruined Rhino

[Riasiru]

Ok, just did a T1 Void run (No, not T3, I am not suicidal.) with a hobbled key. This was a test, this was only a test... But it was useful for determining a few things. First, the setup.

 

My Frame -> http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=242034621

It isn't forma'd, it is only rank 24, and it has no potato. The mods being run are only for helping me get into the loot rooms and will have no effect during combat.

 

My Weapon -> http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=242034564

Boltor! I decided to make this especially difficult by making it impossible for me to shoot around corners. I wasn't going to be able to exploit cover like that with a weapon that wasn't hitscan. I could only return fire if I was open to it... Also, I loaded the weapon out with stuff that was only available up to Venus. You can get Ammo Mutation in the Mercury Survival without any trouble... I've gotten tons of them while ranking up gear. Rather underwhelming weapon, really.

 

Mission goes smoothly until... http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=242034671

Ok, that loot room... I'm hurting for ammo and I need up there... Sprint speed would be a god send right now but I don't have it... This is not combat, this is me... Wanting to get to a dang loot room... Uuuuugh! Well, I can't even cross the gap to get up to the pylons without using both super jump and slash dash. Thankfully I have them for just this reason! Surprisingly, climbing the pylons is easy, and the final lunge with slash dash brings me back across the room to my goal. http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=242034743

 

So, with that done I head up the elevator and... A Fusion Moa Leader drops down as I'm going up. (I cleared the loot room in the elevator before hand, by the way.) This... This is panic mode right here. Fusion Moa have to stop firing if you're behind them and re-orientate themselves. I dodge rolled (Which is not effected by sprint speed.) and got behind him ASAP! Began pumping into his back side while my Sentinel (Who I wasn't expecting to save my life.) Completely destroyed him with his electric elementally charged shotgun. Yep... Heart was racing... Though at the top of the elevator two more Fusion Moa and a Fusion Moa Leader were waiting to greet me in the next room, so yeah... That was intense! Those three, however, weren't even an issue compared to mister FF7 Shinra Tower Elevator Boss. http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=242034922

 

I'd like to take this moment (No picture.) to say I discovered something hilarious right about this point in time. At a distance, walking too slow actually makes enemies over compensate and miss you wildly. Yes, if you move to the left listfully enough (Even as host) at a range of like... 15, 20+ meters?... Enemies will shoot too far ahead of you and miss completely. This, this is hilarious... I'm so slow that it's actually become a strength in combat. Are you not amused!? I was laughing my hind end off!

 

So with that we continue on our marry way until we get to this wonderful room. http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=242035010

The grate is closed which means the loot room at the other side is available!... If I'm fast enough to get over. I go ahead and kill the enemies before opening it, even having to resupply mid fire fight because, yeah... Did I mention this weapon is gimped? It's gimped... And my sidearm is a Brakk I'm not using cause, seriously... Seriously?... Brakk? With hobbled?... Nah, didn't even take it out. Same for melee. That isn't happening. Would have been useful against that Fusion Moa earlier, mind you, but neither saw any action.

 

Enemies cleared I hit the button, use slash dash three times (Zoom zoom zoooooom!) And make it to the loot room. Sprint speed not required. http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=242035128

Few enemies come up while I'm in the room, but I just wait for the lasers to kill them off. No reason to waste ammo. That done, I destroy the lasers, grab the loot hidden in the alcove off to the side... Which I couldn't even reach by wall running. Not kidding! Sprint speed, so low... Couldn't even wall run there without running out of stamina! I had to carefully inch across the ledge on the wall, then wall run across and let go of W so I carefully dropped straight down onto the other ledge!... Ugh... Keeps happening. Sprint speed keeps trying to steal my loot! It's my loot, and I'm going to take it!!

 

So... Yeah... All the enemies are dead pretty soon after that... One final loot room behind a waterfall and then off to Evac... And here is the result screen showing that I gained 0 Affinity on my Brakk or my Kitty Hammer o' Doom. http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=242035269

 

So yeah... I said it before and I'll say it again. Sprint speed is insignificant. Also, I've drawn a comparison between the Heavy Gunner and new players. They behave the exact same way. Stand out in the open firing blindly, and then they die while they reload... Every time... 

Edited March 25, 2014 by Riasiru

[RealPandemonium]

Many posts

I know you're doing this for catharsis or w/e but SquirmyBurrito, though making some good insights, cannot be argued with.  He will go on for dozens of posts saying the same thing.  He is a smart guy but somewhat inarticulate and a little immature.  Just let him peter out.

 

 

Hobbled Void Trial

Ha, that was a fun read.  You should probably do it with a Thrak Rhino and see how it goes.  Do it with a Zorencopter though, or at least some decent copter weapon (>1.3 base speed.)  If you want to bring a heavy weapon on your Rhino then a Rush mod or Vanguard helm is justified (but not necessary.)  Honestly, though, I'd just potato my Zoren since their damage is quite good due to their good speed.  It doesn't work if you have low FPS though.

Edited March 25, 2014 by RealPandemonium

[Phoenix86]

Before you rage or flame, or do whatever you forumers do, please read this and understand the viewpoint I am taking.

 

The Vanguard Helmet ruined Rhino. It looks great, but the stats have ruined all that Rhino is. Rhino is supposed to be a slow moving, powerful, tank frame. I often see Rhino filling this role, and carrying the team. His powers are all useful for utility, team buffs, defense, damage, and mobility. His one drawback, based on his original design, was speed. Rhino was slow, until the Vanguard Helmet was created. This removed the one drawback that Rhino had. All frames have a weakness, whether it be speed, low health/shield stats, low energy, etc. Vanguard allows a Rhino to be almost the speed of a Loki, and Rhino Prime is even faster than the normal Rhino! This completely ruins Rhino how he should be, and basically creates the "best" class in the game. 

DE has stated that they plan to make new helmets without stats, but they may leave the stats on the first few helmets. This is a TERRIBLE idea in Rhino's case. Rhino would stay horribly unbalanced, and many Rhino players in the future would be very angry at the fact that they missed the Vanguard Helmet.

 

 

DE, in the name of balance, please remove the stats from ALL helmets when the time comes. Helmet stats ruined the balance in Rhino, and continue to disrupt other frames. A tank frame as fast as the weak guy is just wrong. Just imagine Heavy running around with Scout in TF2. Its just not right.

 

 

Edit: inb4 "Fast paced ninja game", "It is in the future in space, anything is possible", or "rhino fstr than me pls nerf"

 

This isn't a nerf thread. This is a plea for balance.

 

If your problem was the balance for yourself you could just unequip the helmet and unequip Rush and everyone would be happy (me being speedy, you being slowy) but no, you want all being slowy, that's selfish.

 

You have the solution to balance yourself, dont use the helmet. Leave others alone.

 

PS: your claim in the thread's title couldnt be much falser, Vanguard completes Rhino in the only aspect he lacks making it "perfect"

 

PSS: there are no classes in warframe, this is not a medieval RPG

[Riasiru]

Ha, that was a fun read.  You should probably do it with a Thrak Rhino and see how it goes.  Do it with a Zorencopter though, or at least some decent copter weapon (>1.3 base speed.)  If you want to bring a heavy weapon on your Rhino then a Rush mod or Vanguard helm is justified (but not necessary.)  Honestly, though, I'd just potato my Zoren since their damage is quite good due to their good speed.  It doesn't work if you have low FPS though.

The point was to prove that sprint speed had little merit on combat. If a melee weapon gave me artificial sprint speed it would defeat the point... Also, I need super jump or there is just no way for me to get into the loot room way up and across from the pylons. (Wall running across the outside of the elevator shaft doesn't work.) 

 

Oh, glad you enjoyed the read, by the way.

Edited March 25, 2014 by Riasiru

[RealPandemonium]

The point was to prove that sprint speed had little merit on combat. If a melee weapon gave me artificial sprint speed it would defeat the point... Also, I need super jump or there is just no way for me to get into the loot room way up and across from the pylons. (Wall running across the outside of the elevator shaft doesn't work.) 

 

Oh, glad you enjoyed the read, by the way.

You don't need to prove anything to SquirmyBurrito because you can't. :p

 

I usually just climb up the side and then fall onto the little bar up there, but hobbled it will make your fingers tired. 

[MirageKnight]

+Another argument for nerfing Vanguard, because being left behind by Vanguard Rhinos is not fun for all the average speed frames. 

 

It's not fun for a player running a Vanguard-less Rhino (or a Frost or Sayrn for that matter) being left behind by the likes of players that speed through missions with Ash, Loki, and Nova...who then complain when you're 3+ minutes behind them and they're waiting at the extract point with the vast majority of kills.

[Countess_Hapmuhr]

Rhino is great, tanky, has cc and with Vanguard he's also speedy, so what? Can someone explain me how making Rhino a slow &#! turtle will make the game more fun? Rhino is already pretty boring as it is to play, if on top of that you make it ridiculously slow, yeah...

 

Again, explain me how making Rhino slower will make him or the game more fun. Because let's be honest, balancing just for the sake of balancing is the most idiotic reason ever, no offence, this is no e-sport game, it's just a fun PvE game which is already so unbalanced that has now passed the point of no return...

 

Just enjoy the game, DE should work on what is broken instead of nerfing yet again more warframes...

 

You win the thread because you ask the one question none of these MOBA players can answer. And here's my follow up questions that'll really nail the hammer in the coffin:

 

1) If you're a Rhino player and hate the bacon helmet, why are you using it? Secondly, if you like a tankier Rhino, why aren't you always using a hobbled key?

 

2) If your problem is with other users having a speedy Rhino, why is that a problem for you? How is their speedier Rhino invalidating your other builds? How is it hindering your gaming? How is it preventing you from having fun? Is there some secret Rhino ability that completely ruins games for everyone else? PvP reasons are invalid since this is not a PvP game, so those are out.

[AscendantWyvern]

You win the thread because you ask the one question none of these MOBA players can answer. And here's my follow up questions that'll really nail the hammer in the coffin:

 

1) If you're a Rhino player and hate the bacon helmet, why are you using it? Secondly, if you like a tankier Rhino, why aren't you always using a hobbled key?

 

2) If your problem is with other users having a speedy Rhino, why is that a problem for you? How is their speedier Rhino invalidating your other builds? How is it hindering your gaming? How is it preventing you from having fun? Is there some secret Rhino ability that completely ruins games for everyone else? PvP reasons are invalid since this is not a PvP game, so those are out.

With complete respect to the original developer (Volt_Cruelerz) of this essay, I present to you with this. 

 

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1NrbeZdVEfHF5b3sE9DNMaPWcgSWncAk1eYe87QSIiOk

 

Read it nice and slow. Until you can provide me with a more powerful, better researched source to tell me that "PVE balancing doesn't matter." Your mindset will always be in the wrong. 

 

With that in mind, "Why don't you not use it" is strictly counter-intuitive to the actions required to take. You question how it invalidates other builds, the layman's answer is that it is simply superior to everything else, so why use anything else? If you "simply don't use it", you'll be left in the dust because the balance is focused around this ONE issue. 

 

all future balancing on Rhino will revolve around the common feedback. Now, if everyone has Vanguard on Rhino, then all feedback and adjustments will be made with it in mind. 

 

Then we enter the parts where a Rhino player doesn't have such a stat boost (either he lacks Vanguard, or he was too late and the removal of stats happened so he couldn't receive the free boost) then they get the S#&$ end of the stick because they lack the object that suddenly balances Rhino.

 

Then we have a situation where Vanguard TRULY becomes a must-have. 

Edited March 25, 2014 by AscendantWyvern

[Sedant]

they already talked about stat helms and how they are being removed 

 

They also said if you already have it you get to keep it, anyone picking up the game after the fact will be unable to get them, so pick them up while you can.

[RealPandemonium]

With complete respect to the original developer (Volt_Cruelerz) of this essay, I present to you with this. 

 

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1NrbeZdVEfHF5b3sE9DNMaPWcgSWncAk1eYe87QSIiOk

 

Read it nice and slow. Until you can provide me with a more powerful, better researched source to tell me that "PVE balancing doesn't matter." Your mindset will always be in the wrong. 

 

With that in mind, "Why don't you not use it" is strictly counter-intuitive to the actions required to take. You question how it invalidates other builds, the layman's answer is that it is simply superior to everything else, so why use anything else? If you "simply don't use it", you'll be left in the dust because the balance is focused around this ONE issue. 

 

all future balancing on Rhino will revolve around the common feedback. Now, if everyone has Vanguard on Rhino, then all feedback and adjustments will be made with it in mind. 

 

Then we enter the parts where a Rhino player doesn't have such a stat boost (either he lacks Vanguard, or he was too late and the removal of stats happened so he couldn't receive the free boost) then they get the S#&$ end of the stick because they lack the object that suddenly balances Rhino.

 

Then we have a situation where Vanguard TRULY becomes a must-have. 

Stop peddling that dude's essay in every thread.  Balance in PVE games is for everyone to have fun.  Rhino being fast doesn't hurt other players' fun.  Stop being butthurt that your skinny frame is slower than the fat frame.  Muddling the public debate about real balance issues with these non-issues is menacing and a waste of everyone's time.

[AscendantWyvern]

Stop peddling that dude's essay in every thread.  Balance in PVE games is for everyone to have fun.  Rhino being fast doesn't hurt other players' fun.  Stop being butthurt that your skinny frame is slower than the fat frame.  Muddling the public debate about real balance issues with these non-issues is menacing and a waste of everyone's time.

Where is the fun in a game where cosmetics matter?

[RealPandemonium]

Where is the fun in a game where cosmetics matter?

Don't *@##$ about Vanguard; propose a place for those stats that isn't tied to cosmetics.  Such proposals already have wide support in this forum.  Support those proposals and let this issue rest.  The game is in beta and things are subject to change, so have patience and stop slinging S#&$.

[AscendantWyvern]

propose a place for those stats that isn't tied to cosmetics.  

Waaaay

ahead of you.

 

Currently, the focal point of my issues are just how idiotic the proposed plan to "optionally" remove stats. You ask me, ALL helmet stats go, or they implement the slot ideas in these threads. I've been adamant against forcing cosmetics since the dawn of these helmets.

 

However, that's not the topic at hand. The topic is about Vanguard, and how it skewed Rhino into joining the frames that are part of the rusher plague.

[RealPandemonium]

People are gonna rush no matter what.  Rushing is a fun and rewarding way to play this game.  If you can't stand rushing ever then don't play with pubs.

[AscendantWyvern]

People are gonna rush no matter what.  Rushing is a fun and rewarding way to play this game.  If you can't stand rushing ever then don't play with pubs.

It's rewarding sure, and that's why the mindset developed.

 

But is it really fun? Take a second and picture it. How fun is it exactly...to run from point A to point B and pressing 4 each time you see a dude? 

[RealPandemonium]

I find that equipping a less-than-zoren copter weapon and removing all speed mods/helmets and just running through the levels as fast as possible using wallrunning and such to be very very fun.  I thought farming Vay Hek to get all the neurodes for the alternate helmets (:p) would be a drag but I found myself having more fun than I've had with this game in a while.  `

[LazyKnight]

You don't dodge a bullet, but you avoid other attacks or simply run for cover while your shield gives you time. It does matter big time even in this game vs every faction (and I was talking of general principles regardless of a game). Better mobility = better survivability. 

My only point was about a dodge function being different. Ninja Gaiden is a good example of how they synergizes, but each help in different in a way.

 

 

Sprinting out of their LoS is breaking line of sight.

First you were trying to argue that you could dodge bullets now you're backpedaling and claiming that you sprint to cover. Which is it? Are you dodging bullets or are you hiding behind cover? If your saying you're playing the game as cover based shooter, why are you leaving cover in the first place? There are very few maps that ever require you to use moment speed to position yourself, as most allow you to avoid running across large open room.

 

 

They only surround you if you stand still. Wrong. I use sprinting to avoid corpus bullet hell with a high rate of success.

They spawn from every direction. This is proven fact, and only a few maps will have one location that NPC are coming from. I have yet to see you prove I was wrong in anything. I am not wrong, as I said that if they are shooting from multiple angles that they can't be dodge. I never asserted that corpus can't be dodged by strafing.

 

 

[if the wiki is to be believed] Wrong. Blinded targets (radial blind) also take extra melee damage. Saryn is also capable of buffing her melee damage. Trinity can face-tank at melee range better than Rhino can. And Valkyr is practically made for melee. None of that comes down to personal taste, all of those frames have clear melee advantages.

A Galatine can kill things up to level 60. The only requirement is to be able to use it to and not get knocked down. The variance in overkill is moot. Rhino can stomp and just hack away untill everything is dead, it is the same end-result; Rhino's stomp is a hard CC that works on just about everything, you can hack away on the G3 or bosses.

 

 

I've grown tired of your habit of asserting that things I do are impossible. I aim-dodge grineer, plural. Speed is/can be used to get from cover to cover. The slower you are the more damage you're going to take.

It is impossible to dodge a hit-scan bullet, they can only miss because their weapons, such as hind, do not adjust quickly and have spread. The Shield lancer's Vipers can not be dodged by anything, and they can only miss because of the spread of their weapon at a distance.

 

What you are doing is fleeing to cover. Stop try assert that sprint speed allows you to dodge something that can not be dodged.

 

 

Pathetic damage? It does more damage than Slash Dash, Shuriken (per shuriken), Sonic Boom, Fireball (the initial damage, not the proc), Freeze, Pull, Soul Punch, Null Star (per projectile), Smite (initial attack), Rip Line, Shock, and Tailwind. Very few first abilities actually do as much (initial damage) as Rhino Charge. And Rhino Charge doubles as a great mobility skill. Duration can be fit into most builds. 

First, it is a linear motion attack that forces the character to move to point 'b'. The distance traveled is based of duration and this power can not be quick casted like fireball or other abilities.  Unlike tailwind/slash dash for zephyr and Excalibur, there is no incentive to use duration on Rhino. If a duration build is used, it wouldn't be for charge. Roar would get that spot as there is no reason to be stuck charging across the room to do less than 1k damage (my Boltor Prime can out damage it in 1 bullet)

 

Duration is only useful for roar, it is a waste of slot for both Iron skin and Stomp. It is easily the most effective strategy to simply go max efficiency and just use Stomp.

 

Most of the '1', other than slash dash, are not affected by duration and their cost can be reduced and they are cheaper for the energy usage. A ranged attack is also easier to aim because the attack is point vector.

 

His charge does more damage than slash dash. Stomp does 800 (800x2 within a certain radius) at base and it puts all affected enemies in a stasis of sorts. 

 

So I'm still waiting on that weakness.

If anyone use charge for damage they are clueless or have no weapon. If your using any build charge should be dropped from the pallet, activate roar aim-and-fire. Charge is useless and can launch Rhino into pits and other hazards. Unlike Excalibur that has all but his 4 benefit from power duration, Rhino only has his roar that is worth considering. Edit: Forgot super jump, that is a traveling exploring function with out heavy impact..

 

Radical bind can be chained cast with greater efficiency than stomp, and can be done for virtual no energy cost. Excalibur can lock down an entire section of the map for a lot longer than Rhino.  DE shouldn't have had the CC aspect of stomp unaffected by power duration.

 

How much damage does Ember's world on fire do? Do you need me to do a math breakdown of how bad the damage of stomp is compared to the others?

Edited March 25, 2014 by LazyKnight

[RealPandemonium]

Unlike Excalibur that has all but his 4 benefit from power duration,

Nitpicking here, but Excalibur's 3 is affected by strength, not duration.

[Monolake]

It's not fun for a player running a Vanguard-less Rhino (or a Frost or Sayrn for that matter) being left behind by the likes of players that speed through missions with Ash, Loki, and Nova...who then complain when you're 3+ minutes behind them and they're waiting at the extract point with the vast majority of kills.

Thats why vanguard should be 11% or just make Rhino faster like Rhino Prime (and buff  speed to Frost as well) and remove helmets stats completely. Everyone will be happy.

If you need to keep up with faster frames, Rhino, unlike most other frames, can equip speed mods instead of shileds and health mods. And he has Charge too.

And if you need to rush, then use a rush frame instead of a tanky frame, there is specialization for a reason.

Edited March 25, 2014 by Monolake

[letir]

How exactly my solo build "all-in-one" ruined the game?

[Countess_Hapmuhr]

With complete respect to the original developer (Volt_Cruelerz) of this essay, I present to you with this. 

 

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1NrbeZdVEfHF5b3sE9DNMaPWcgSWncAk1eYe87QSIiOk

 

Read it nice and slow. Until you can provide me with a more powerful, better researched source to tell me that "PVE balancing doesn't matter." Your mindset will always be in the wrong. 

 

With that in mind, "Why don't you not use it" is strictly counter-intuitive to the actions required to take. You question how it invalidates other builds, the layman's answer is that it is simply superior to everything else, so why use anything else? If you "simply don't use it", you'll be left in the dust because the balance is focused around this ONE issue. 

 

all future balancing on Rhino will revolve around the common feedback. Now, if everyone has Vanguard on Rhino, then all feedback and adjustments will be made with it in mind. 

 

Then we enter the parts where a Rhino player doesn't have such a stat boost (either he lacks Vanguard, or he was too late and the removal of stats happened so he couldn't receive the free boost) then they get the S#&$ end of the stick because they lack the object that suddenly balances Rhino.

 

Then we have a situation where Vanguard TRULY becomes a must-have. 

 

This essay contains a large number of opinions masquerading as a logical deductions mixed in with the exact MOBA mentality I referenced before. Warframe is not a competitive game. Your entire post reeks of the exact problem with your viewpoint, you're playing the wrong game. It seems you've completely missed the lore referencing numerous times that we are the Tenno. A race fighting for a place in the galaxy, not at a place in the global leaderboards. Sure, there ARE leaderboards, but if you look at the meta of the game, you will see that it favours cooperation over competition.

 

EDIT: Phrasing.

Edited March 25, 2014 by Hap-muhr

[(PSN)pmnovaroadspilot]

lol at this this way of thinking 

its almost communist like 

if you dont like the boost on vanguard helmet 

then 

dont 

use 

it 

 

i should be able to use it if i wish 

[LazyKnight]

Nitpicking here, but Excalibur's 3 is affected by strength, not duration.

Yeah, I was only consider his 1,2,4 and ignored super jump completely. I didn't mention it because it only becomes a damage tool when heavy impact is used.

Edited March 25, 2014 by LazyKnight

[AscendantWyvern]

This essay contains a large number of opinions masquerading as a logical deductions mixed in with the exact MOBA mentality I referenced before. Warframe is not a competitive game. Your entire post reeks of the exact problem with your viewpoint, you're playing the wrong game. It seems you've completely missed the lore referencing numerous times that we are a Tenno. A race fighting for a place in the galaxy, not at a place in the global leaderboards. Sure, there ARE leaderboards, but if you look at the meta of the game, you will see that it favours cooperation over competition.

My mentality is that from a Shooter, of which Warframe is one of. But please, sir, enlighten me as to which "mentality" you wish me to follow. RPG? They have balancing there. "But it's PVE, it doesn't need to be!" It's also a game, where challenge needs to be present will ALL materials. 

 

If Warframe is a simulator, then it will be an exception to the rule of balance. 

 

A co-operative meta? Please, Warframe is only co-op in terms of literal definition. Co-op requires synergy, where one frame is part of a whole. So far the only two frames that match this is Loki+Vauban. In reality this game is a multiplayer solo experience, where solo is next to impossible, and co-op is easy as cake because people are like water, always taking the easiest course (i.e. the unbalanced.)

[SuperWeedy-EGT-]

It's rewarding sure, and that's why the mindset developed.

 

But is it really fun? Take a second and picture it. How fun is it exactly...to run from point A to point B and pressing 4 each time you see a dude? 

 

Yea lets run from A to B and press 4 at each mob...and take 4x as long while doing it. Sounds great