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How Vanguard Helmet Ruined Rhino


TheStag
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I'd just like to take a moment to reflect on something I just realized... Someone at some point in this thread said Rhino is too balanced... Rhino is too balanced... Can I repeat that enough times? So... By making it unbalanced we're making it balanced? I'm sorry, I just suddenly realized this had been said, fixated on it, and promptly had my brain melt like a computer that had seen the number 2 in binary. Whoever called me a hypocrite earlier, there is the hypocrisy you've been looking for.

 

Seriously, though, the stats on helmets is bad. They mentioned at some point the ability to possibly alter your tenno instead of the warframe its self. I'm betting that removing the stats is a likely way of trying to transition towards this.  If it is, I'm all for it. I'll happily see the stat buffs on Vanguard go if I have the option of putting them on the tenno inside of Rhino. He needs the speed.

 

And because if I don't say it again I'll have someone saying I'm a hypocrite... He needs the speed to keep up with his allies and so that players don't feel like the fat kid wheezing his way down the hall while his other three friends are already outside half way through a game of tag.

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-snip-

 

I'll stick to sprinting so I arrive spend as little time between cover as possible.

 

-snip-

 

Funny story, but your effort to prove how much speed didn't matter kinda fails. Don't worry, I'll explain why:

1. Dodge rolling takes longer than sprinting to cover distance.

2. Dodge rolling (as Lazy mentioned) doesn't come with invincibility frames. (or if it does, I never noticed them). 

3. That was one faction.

4. Many of those situations would have been made easier by having a reasonable sprint speed available to you.

 

I know you're doing this for catharsis or w/e but SquirmyBurrito, though making some good insights, cannot be argued with.  He will go on for dozens of posts saying the same thing.  He is a smart guy but somewhat inarticulate and a little immature.  Just let him peter out.

 

 

Ha, that was a fun read.  You should probably do it with a Thrak Rhino and see how it goes.  Do it with a Zorencopter though, or at least some decent copter weapon (>1.3 base speed.)  If you want to bring a heavy weapon on your Rhino then a Rush mod or Vanguard helm is justified (but not necessary.)  Honestly, though, I'd just potato my Zoren since their damage is quite good due to their good speed.  It doesn't work if you have low FPS though.

 

Please, do not insult me.

 

Vanguard completes Rhino in the only aspect he lacks making it "perfect"

 

That is the entire reason for this thread's existence.

 

You don't need to prove anything to SquirmyBurrito because you can't. :p

 

I usually just climb up the side and then fall onto the little bar up there, but hobbled it will make your fingers tired. 

 

Stop painting me in a negative light. Either best me in a debate or keep my name out of your metaphorical mouth. I have no respect for posters who decide to sit on the sidelines and fire potshots at the participants. LazyKnight and Riasiru have my respect, even though I disagree with them.

 

Stop peddling that dude's essay in every thread.  Balance in PVE games is for everyone to have fun.  Rhino being fast doesn't hurt other players' fun.  Stop being butthurt that your skinny frame is slower than the fat frame.  Muddling the public debate about real balance issues with these non-issues is menacing and a waste of everyone's time.

 

Fun is subjective. 

 

Please, if you're only purpose in this thread is to attempt to downplay the importance/validity of the main topic, feel free to excuse yourself from the thread.

 

-snip-

 

I added clarification, no backpedaling has occurred. I'm aim-dodging and/or sprinting between cover. 

 

You only get surrounded if you stay still for too long. Your claim (the multiple angles one) assigns an indefinite term to the potential to successfully execute a certain strategy. How can you be sure that it is impossible? Are you even sure?

 

What does that have to do with anything? Enemies don't cease to exist after level 60, and the galatine isn't the only melee weapon. If Excalibur truly does have that melee damage boost, it would be inaccurate to claim that Rhino was better suited for melee than him.

 

I just went back and looked at the quote this was a response to, now I know why you're (stupidly) acting as if I said something that I didn't. Aim-dodging has a few definitions depending upon who you ask, but all of them mean the same basic thing. You aren't dodging the actual bullet, you're dodging the aim. I'm not going to speak on the vipers because I tend to shoot shield lancers before they get a chance to shoot at me.

 

flee
flē/Submit
verb
1.
run away from a place or situation of danger.
 
I'm not fleeing. No, I will not stop, because it can be done at the correct distances. 
 
What does it being linear have to do with anything? Going from point a to b is its purpose and that's what it excels at.

>to do less than 1k damage

What does its damage (which as I pointed out is still better than most other frames' first skill) even matter? It is a mobility skill first, damaging second. You can try to downplay it all you want but it does its job well. I'm not sure what you mean by 'it can't be quickcasted' is there some sort of delay that I'm missing?

 
In your opinion. I find charge to be overwhelmingly useful.
 
They still do not do as much damage, so your claim that it did pathetic damage either means almost every first skill does pathetic damage, or you just didn't bother checking how much damage it did in relation to the other first skills.
 
I agree with the bit about using charge for damage. I disagree with the rest. That is your opinion. Super Jump doesn't benefit from duration. Rhino's Roar and Charge both benefit from duration. So they're even, both have two abilities that benefit from duration. I get it, you have an opinion and that opinion doesn't look upon charge favorably. But that's just it, its your opinion. I don't agree with it.
 
What does that have to do with Rhino? Do you seriously not get it? Other frames being better at something does not mean Rhino is bad. Holy crap, what is wrong with you people. The Soma is better than the Grakata, but that doesn't mean the Grakata is bad. Rhino Stomp may not be the best CC, but it is respectable and worth using. Rhino Charge may not be the best mobility skill (Tailwind, and maybe rip line), but it is still good. Do you not understand that things are on a gradient? 
 
So you're going to bring up the top tier single target damage ability in this game as an attempt to try and make Rhino Stomp look bad? Rhino Stomp (within the x2 radius) does 1600 damage, that is actually roughly the same as quite a few abilities. But wait, there's more. Rhino Stomp also comes with a duration mod ignoring hard cc. What does World on Fire come with to help it scale?
 
But no, I do not need your math breakdown. I did one a while back when I was pointing out that Ember wasn't as bad as everyone was claiming.
 
I'll end this where I started:

None of this huge wall of text matters, because at the end of the day Rhino's status as a jack of all trades/stats has left him with little/no weaknesses. This isn't a thread about how OP (I think someone made that claim) or 'fun' he is or isn't. This isn't a thread for discussing what the cut off is where an ability stops being good and becomes bad. This isn't a thread for people to pop in, rant about fun and spout "just don't use it". 

 
Honestly, Lazy if you want to continue this thing about how speed doesn't matter or how bad/worthless you think charge is, just go create your own thread. That way it can get the fair look that it deserves. That's just my suggestion, I am not the boss so you can choose to ignore it if you wish.
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I admire your enthusiasm but you should focus it toward something constructive. 

 

If you aren't going to actually debate why even bother responding to my posts? 

 

Give it up buddy, if DE does a full stat wipe on them you would hear way to many rhinos cry. And we cant have that happen !

 

Player QQ is not a good enough reason (IMO) to keep imbalance in the game.

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If you aren't going to actually debate why even bother responding to my posts? 

 

 

Player QQ is not a good enough reason (IMO) to keep imbalance in the game.

I know its not, but it will happen.

People will still pick reasons like

"Its not a PVP game, no need for balance"

"Rhino is not a tank, its ok for him to be the second fastest for nothing"

"Rhinos in IRL are fast tho"

 

As long as more then 1 guy will support this dumb problem i doubt DE will change anything.

But hey its a PVE game who cares about balance right haha.

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Funny story, but your effort to prove how much speed didn't matter kinda fails. Don't worry, I'll explain why:

1. Dodge rolling takes longer than sprinting to cover distance.

2. Dodge rolling (as Lazy mentioned) doesn't come with invincibility frames. (or if it does, I never noticed them). 

3. That was one faction.

4. Many of those situations would have been made easier by having a reasonable sprint speed available to you.

 

1. And yet you never need anything faster. (Making Sprinting as a whole a luxury.)

2. It does not come with them, you're right on this one.

3. Composed of the other three factions. 

4. Yes, sprinting would have been a god send in the cramped elevator with that Moa... On that tiny platform... With absolutely no cover... [/sarcasm]

 

I found an even better way of explaining this, by the way. Rhino is like the fat asthmatic kid who can kick the ball clean into the next neighborhood over. (We'll call that a home run in this metaphorical game of kick ball.) But, after getting the home run, he gets winded by second base and has to take a quick breather while the other kids sit there... Waiting... For him... To get around... You know what, we're just gonna go ahead and finish the game while you catch up... It doesn't matter how slow he is, once the ball is somewhere way off in old man Jenkin's backyard the block over, Rhino can take all the time he wants. Sure would be nice if he'd hurry his fat @*$%! up, though... Ain't nobody got time for that.

 

PS. Shield Flux + Iron Skin + Redirection + Rush = Sprint Forever Everywhere. Doesn't matter who he's racing against, he'll over take them the moment they need to stop and fight something or wait for stamina to recharge. 

Edited by Riasiru
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Honestly, Lazy if you want to continue this thing about how speed doesn't matter or how bad/worthless you think charge is, just go create your own thread. That way it can get the fair look that it deserves. That's just my suggestion, I am not the boss so you can choose to ignore it if you wish.

The number of underhand comments in your response oozes with elitism. It is getting boring reading your response.

 

 

 I'm not sure what you mean by 'it can't be quick casted' is there some sort of delay that I'm missing?

'Power is in use', and the duration mods actually make it take longer to be able to use it again.  This is because the entire act of the slash/charge is a function on increasing the number of frames that the skill is active for. If you are increasing range you have to wait longer to use it. If it is to be used for damage it is best to have duration as short as possible and use it at zero range. Other '1' powers are as fast as slash dash and charge are only with a maximum duration penalty.

 

Edited for clarification: Being launched by high duration is bad. The ability can also get stuck on something then bungee to where it should have been had it not gotten blocked.

You only get surrounded if you stay still for too long. Your claim (the multiple angles one) assigns an indefinite term to the potential to successfully execute a certain strategy. How can you be sure that it is impossible? Are you even sure?

You're the one that said I was wrong and failed to prove it. The way that mobility works is there has to be a spot that doesn't contain bullets to move into, and corpus shot streams of bullets as opposed to a single shot. If slide or dodge had invulnerability frames it would be possible to avoid getting hit in this situation.

 

 

 

What does that have to do with Rhino? Do you seriously not get it? Other frames being better at something does not mean Rhino is bad. Holy crap, what is wrong with you people.

Did I ever say once Rhino was bad? Do you have reading comprehension problem? Seriously knock it off, I am starting to wonder if something is wrong with you.

 

His ability are all average to good; with nothing being best.

Edited by LazyKnight
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The number of underhand comments in your response oozes with elitism. It is getting boring reading your response.

 

 

'Power is in use', and the duration mods actually make it take longer to be able to use it again.  This is because the entire act of the slash/charge is a function on increasing the number of frames that the skill is active for. If you are increasing range you have to wait longer to use it. If it is to be used for damage it is best to have duration as short as possible and use it at zero range. Other '1' powers are as fast as slash dash and charge are only with a maximum duration penalty.

 

 

You're the one that said I was wrong and failed to prove it. The way that mobility works is there has to be a spot that doesn't contain bullets to move into, and corpus shot streams of bullets as opposed to a single shot. If slide or dodge had invulnerability frames it would be possible to avoid getting hit in this situation.

 

 

 

Did I ever say once Rhino was bad? Do you have reading comprehension problem? Seriously knock it off, I am starting to wonder if something is wrong with you.

 

His ability are all average to good; with nothing being best.

 

Elitism? So now you've resorted to insults.

 

I hadn't thought about that. I'm going to ignore the part about using it for damage as you and I seem to have the same opinion on using charge for damage. Tailwind also has this duration 'penalty'.

 

You never actually provided any proof that you were correct.

 

I accidentally left out two words "at it" should have been on the end of that sentence. Sorry for the confusion.

 

This falls in line with what I was saying. Everything being good to average means none of those are a weak area. Every ability that does damage also has something else added to the mix to allow it to scale to some degree as levels continue to progress.

 

I don't think the burrito entirely understands what is being discussed, Lazy.

 

I'm open to the idea that I'm some how missing the point. Please explain, but before you do please also verify that what it is you're trying to discuss is actually relevant to the main topic.

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I know its not, but it will happen.

People will still pick reasons like

"Its not a PVP game, no need for balance"

"Rhino is not a tank, its ok for him to be the second fastest for nothing"

"Rhinos in IRL are fast tho"

 

As long as more then 1 guy will support this dumb problem i doubt DE will change anything.

But hey its a PVE game who cares about balance right haha.

You do because its based on a stringent idea 

you are trying to make every one play your way 

but we arent competing against each other 

my time is my time 

i should have the options i want to use with my time 

 

 

lets face fact 

most of yall suck at thinking about things in the universal sense 

you type of thinking is fallible simply because its lateral for you 

it doenst process other players thoughts in a PVE game 

 

 

 

dont tell me how to use my time thats a communist way of thinking 

 

 

 

you cannot compare PVE games to other types of games and people that use "balance" as a buzzword in this genre of game... 

 

predominately dont know what they are talking about 

Edited by (PS4)pmnovaroadspilot
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I'm open to the idea that I'm some how missing the point. Please explain, but before you do please also verify that what it is you're trying to discuss is actually relevant to the main topic.

 

The topic is that Vanguard Helmet somehow makes Rhino too good and that the stat removal in an upcoming update needs to be mandatory. We're currently talking about how speed actually effects (or I am) so little of the actual combat in the game that the removal of the stats serves little purpose in reigning Rhino in. 

 

... We really weren't talking about nerfing Rhino specifically so much as his bacon helmet...

 

Rhino does need a nerf, though... And a buff... Hmm... How about knocking his base shield value down to 120 and giving him 20 more base HP? Both his HP and Shields will max at 360 at rank 30. With lower shields we can excuse giving him a new base sprint speed of 1.0 and call it a day?

 

And just for kicks, we can nerf Loki to .5 sprint speed and give Frost and Saryn a sprint speed of 1.0, too. (The Loki comment is a joke, though I would like to see the slower frames brought up to average because it is a horrible way of balancing anything.)

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My mentality is that from a Shooter, of which Warframe is one of. But please, sir, enlighten me as to which "mentality" you wish me to follow. RPG? They have balancing there. "But it's PVE, it doesn't need to be!" It's also a game, where challenge needs to be present will ALL materials. 

 

If Warframe is a simulator, then it will be an exception to the rule of balance. 

 

A co-operative meta? Please, Warframe is only co-op in terms of literal definition. Co-op requires synergy, where one frame is part of a whole. So far the only two frames that match this is Loki+Vauban. In reality this game is a multiplayer solo experience, where solo is next to impossible, and co-op is easy as cake because people are like water, always taking the easiest course (i.e. the unbalanced.)

 

This is a quote from this actual site:

 

"Warframe is a cooperative free-to-play online action game set in an evolving sci-fi world. Join your friends in player-vs-enemy raids across the solar system and master the power of the Warframes. Stand alone or fight together against enemies that threaten your world."

 

This is what the game aims to be. Since it's still in development, it clearly isn't there yet, but you can clearly see the vision outlined in these words. Do you know why PvP is neglected in most patches? Because the devs have stated over and over AND OVER again that Warframe is not about achivement of competition, but rather growth through teamwork. And yet people like you still miss this fact even though there's extensive lore, events and live-streams that detail this fact over and over.

 

Edit: And again, stop pulling MOBA comparisons into it. Just because heroes have to work in super second tandem there doesn't mean that EVERY game out there has to confirm to those same overly constrained rulesets.

Edited by Hap-muhr
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Edit: And again, stop pulling MOBA comparisons into it. Just because heroes have to work in super second tandem there doesn't mean that EVERY game out there has to confirm to those same overly constrained rulesets.

Please, enlighten me on this...what MOBA comparisons have I made?

 

You are right on one manner though, and that is that this game is INTENDED for teamwork, and must be shaped to do so.

 

But in order to shape this bland gameplay into the synergetic teamwork required for a proper PVE experience, changes will need to be made. Adjustments. Buffs. Nerfs

 

There is no challenge as it stands currently because it's either impossible as a solo group, or effortlessly easy because of a combination of lack of proper difficulty (I've had it up to my neck with people saying that wave 100 is true difficulty...it's not...it's a stress test.), and a lack of balance

 

If every warframe had flawless stats, where's the challenge? Where's the fun?

 

Challenge makes the PVE game. 

 

But I digress on a topic that is not of the OP's, I will preach no longer about the prominence of balance and focus on the Vanguard...or more broadly, stat helmets in general. (They need to go...No half-measures.)

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The topic is that Vanguard Helmet somehow makes Rhino too good and that the stat removal in an upcoming update needs to be mandatory. We're currently talking about how speed actually effects (or I am) so little of the actual combat in the game that the removal of the stats serves little purpose in reigning Rhino in. 

 

... We really weren't talking about nerfing Rhino specifically so much as his bacon helmet...

 

Rhino does need a nerf, though... And a buff... Hmm... How about knocking his base shield value down to 120 and giving him 20 more base HP? Both his HP and Shields will max at 360 at rank 30. With lower shields we can excuse giving him a new base sprint speed of 1.0 and call it a day?

 

And just for kicks, we can nerf Loki to .5 sprint speed and give Frost and Saryn a sprint speed of 1.0, too. (The Loki comment is a joke, though I would like to see the slower frames brought up to average because it is a horrible way of balancing anything.)

 

I recognized this and mentioned something along these lines a little while back (unless that was all a dream. I really hope I didn't dream about posting on the forums...) yeah I touched on it here:

 

 

And none of this even matters since this is a discussion on the simplest of things. That being frame balance. You can try and downplay speed's importance all you want. But it doesn't change the fact that slow sprint speed is rhino's ONLY weak area. You claiming that speed doesn't matter anyway doesn't change this. If anything, that gives me grounds to claim that Rhino needs to be nerfed in more areas than just his speed.

 

If his sprint speed does not matter, he should be nerfed somewhere else so that he has a drawback. I didn't continue on too much with this train of thought since that wasn't the original purpose of this thread, I was too lazy to sit down and think of a good nerf, that would only attract more fanboys, and the simplest way to make sure that Rhino has at least one drawback is to nerf vanguard.

 

Changing his health and shields like that will definitely not go over well with the fans. If you feel that is a better course of action than just scrapping vanguard's stats, I'll support that.

 

 

-snip-

 

 

>communist way of thinking

Please leave. We can't convince you, and you won't convince us. Balance matters regardless of whether or not the game is PvE. I can think of a hundreds of strawmen that would help illustrate my point, but this argument really isn't worth it. From now on (in this thread) I will reply to all uses of the 'balance doesn't matter in pve games' logic with a simple "0/10 please troll elsewhere"-type response. I will try to group those responses together and/or with responses to posts that contribute so as to avoid spamming the thread with '0/10's.

Edited by SquirmyBurrito
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Please, enlighten me on this...what MOBA comparisons have I made?

 

You are right on one manner though, and that is that this game is INTENDED for teamwork, and must be shaped to do so.

 

But in order to shape this bland gameplay into the synergetic teamwork required for a proper PVE experience, changes will need to be made. Adjustments. Buffs. Nerfs

 

There is no challenge as it stands currently because it's either impossible as a solo group, or effortlessly easy because of a combination of lack of proper difficulty (I've had it up to my neck with people saying that wave 100 is true difficulty...it's not...it's a stress test.), and a lack of balance

 

If every warframe had flawless stats, where's the challenge? Where's the fun?

 

Challenge makes the PVE game. 

 

But I digress on a topic that is not of the OP's, I will preach no longer about the prominence of balance and focus on the Vanguard...or more broadly, stat helmets in general. (They need to go...No half-measures.)

this is you trying to impart your personal emotions  on other people 

this is why talking about balance is mostly failed from the start. 

because you naturally believe your way of think to be applicable to everyone else 

this game allows for free thinking by buffs and choosing what you want 

hell if you want a bunch of yes man the chat is open for you to gather a team of your own people and go on whatever mission you want 

people just like you who share you strict, stringent way of thinking 

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I agree. I'm not talking about PVP, but let Me say something: a normal player thinks: Loki is the fastest, but he has low shields and healt. Frost is tanky, but he is slow. Then I'll take Rhino, because he can become invincible, he is fast and tanky.

The result: 80% of the players use Rhino.

Also, DE thinks exactly the same, because it seems that in the next update all the stats will be removed.

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this is you trying to impart your personal emotions  on other people 

this is why talking about balance is mostly failed from the start. 

because you naturally believe your way of think to be applicable to everyone else 

this game allows for free thinking by buffs and choosing what you want 

hell if you want a bunch of yes man the chat is open for you to gather a team of your own people and go on whatever mission you want 

people just like you who share you strict, stringent way of thinking 

 

Can't tell if you're trying to say balance doesn't matter. So I'll offer you two replies:

"Balance doesn't matter"

0/10. Please take your trolling elsewhere.

"Balance is hard to discuss because of subjectivity."

I agree, it is hard. But balance is necessary. Rhino needs some drastic changes to be balanced, that seems to be the general idea of the contributing members of this thread.

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I agree. I'm not talking about PVP, but let Me say something: a normal player thinks: Loki is the fastest, but he has low shields and healt. Frost is tanky, but he is slow. Then I'll take Rhino, because he can become invincible, he is fast and tanky.

The result: 80% of the players use Rhino.

Also, DE thinks exactly the same, because it seems that in the next update all the stats will be removed.

Indeed, that's the issue.

 

However, while DE's solution is to remove the stats...their solution is OPTIONAL, which makes the whole solution hilariously moot. 

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>communist way of thinking

Please leave. We can't convince you, and you won't convince us. Balance matters regardless of whether or not the game is PvE. I can think of a hundreds of strawmen that would help illustrate my point, but this argument really isn't worth it. From now on (in this thread) I will reply to all uses of the 'balance doesn't matter in pve games' logic with a simple "0/10 please troll elsewhere"-type response. I will try to group those responses together and/or with responses to posts that contribute so as to avoid spamming the thread with '0/10's.

how you gonna tell me how to use my time and change my options 

 

of course if you wanna cherry pick a word that serves to augment my overall conclusion then thats idiotic in and of itself 

 

what are your premises of "balance" stemming from 

your personal experience?, comparing it to other games?

 

 

you arent at my house 

you arent playing on my tv 

i am... and how i want to play warframe when i turn on my playstation is my prerogative 

 

that goes to the above post also lol saying im trolling when im fighting for my rights 

Edited by (PS4)pmnovaroadspilot
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