Countering Rushers Constructively

[Lorane_Airwing]

First off, this is only ideas, thoughts and musing on game design methods and mechanics that would allow different play styles to co-exist. Right now rushing is an issue because it mingles with other peoples slower or more careful play styles. instead of allowing players the option to use any style of play DE has chosen to punish rushing. We can't truly blame them for doing so, there is no shame is being disappointed that all of the work you've put into your game is being run past, and inclusions to the game that counter rushing can be expected (lights, sensor doors, corpus doors/camera ). After all, some of us love to look for the secret little treasure rooms in tile sets that would be passed up easily if you are rushing. Hidden things like these rooms prove DE really does put a lot of love into their maps and want people to explore them.

 

 

Deterring rushing is probably a hard thing to accomplish. As much as I understand many rushers rush because they simply want the end mission reward. Older players with hoards of credits and resources that simply want to get that helmet blueprint from an alert for example. In this post I will try to list possible methods of constructively aiding and countering rushing at the same time.

 

 

Firstly, extraction changes: Right now the bane of both rushers and players is the "players waiting to extract 1/4" dialog that comes over the screen when someone wishes to leave the mission, forcing other players to either ignore them (survival) or to get to extraction earlier than they wanted to or forcefully extract ( 3/4 players waiting one person wants to explore ). To fix each player will now have their own 10 second extraction timer. If a player has reached the exit it will show a message "A player is extracting", after 10 seconds he or she will leave the mission and free up a spot for another player to join( as normal only if the objective is not completed ). This change would allow rushers to rush without forcing other players to conform to their play style. As well it would allow players who wish to stay and explore the mission to do so without worry of holding their team back from extraction.

 

 

Secondly, enemy focus and stealth changes. Enemies need to be changed slightly so that each player is detected individually. Just because one tenno is present does not mean there are always four there. Players rushing can than run in guns blazing without other players being bothered that their stealth has been broken. This would also allow players to act as distractions when DE begins their work on stealth 1.0 allowing stealth focused players to play how they wish. The only issue i am unsure how to solve is ship alert status and lock-downs. Alert status could possibly be changed so that enemies will be "pulled" from further rooms to confront the most active tenno meaning stealth players would only need to worry about troops moving towards the player and not patrolling troops, possibly a stealth bonus as they are not paying attention to those particular tenno?

 

 

Thirdly, give hidden rooms more treasure. Lockers are really nice to see even more so for new players that need credits and resources, but why not include common and uncommon mods? Possibly even a rare drop of a few select mods? Allow some more incentive to explore maps and dig deep into the level design, and be rewarded for finding that craftily hidden room a level designer probably put hours into! kind of like the voids obstacle courses except a little less in the reward department due to being easier to find and having multiple per map.

 

 

fourthly, allow more level branches, orokin derelict captures are very good examples of levels like this. The levels branch have hidden paths that aren't along the main path to the objective allowing inquisitive players to explore and collect hidden mods and resources, possibly even find secrets like hints for up comming events *wink wink nudge nudge* what could be better for both roleplayers and exploration focused players than finding secret grineer plans. or a map of the corpus trade routes pinned up in some kind of grineer war room!

 

 

Fifthly, and probably optionally, treasure room drops are shared, like corrupted mods. Players exploring the map will share be able to share their loot with other players when the mission ends as long as the player is present when the item is found. Rushers likely having no focus on exploration still benefit, though much less than a player that helps explore and find all the hidden rooms of a level, and as detailed in the first point they will not be a detriment to their teams extraction by exploring.

 

 

Sixthly, and again optionally. This is more of a stealth 1.0 thing, but having treasure rooms only opened by unalerted soldiers would be interesting. As players focusing on stealth wouldn't be bothered by players going in guns blazing this could be possible!

 

 

 

 

My last words on this simply have to do with mission compatibility. Missions such as assassination, defense, possibly survival, are hard to mix with giving an exploration based focus as well as stealth bonuses for players wishing to stay out of enemy focus.

 

Survival has it's own issue of people not paying attention to air supplies instead exploring the map, possibly adding hidden O2 containers into treasure rooms, or being able to activate life support valves hidden in the level? Again, allowing players to leave when they have had their fill be it past 5 minutes or past 2 hours, would at least help some player frustration.

 

Assassinate has always had a problem with rushers killing the boss before other players have even reached him. One possible idea would be to have the boss in a separate section of the level, a sort of "boss door" built into the tile set? not allowing the rusher to progress to the boss without the others? It seems a bit cheap though like the co-op doors.

 

Defense/interception/mobile defense already has a kind of one man extraction built into the gamemode, and has a larger issue with players preferring to door hero instead of defending the pod. Though my post doesn't cover door heroing, i guess it can be considered a form of rushing as it irritates other players? I'm unsure how to work on this one.

 

Spy, exterminate, deception, and capture all fit well with the above outline allowing rushing players to do what they want and reward players more if they explore and stealth through the mission.

 

Lastly there is rescue, While defending the hostage is the most important part of the mission, giving him a gun and rushing to the exit is now possible, the AI is competent and the mission is a lot more fun than it used to be. However a rescue target can only survival for so long. I am also unsure how the new forced stealth section will affect the mission... It doesn't seem to be fitting of the "ninja sandbox" DE seems to be going for in warframe, forcing a player to do a specific style of gameplay does not open the door for either creativity or sandbox play. Instead allowing players to choose their own super cyborg space ninja path should be a major focus, and if anything is what i am trying to get across through this post.

 

 

TL; DR: Let players extract on their own, make stealth based on each player and not the squad, make treasure rooms more rewarding, and share the loot between players still in the mission so we can raid levels for stuff. Finally implementing ideas is hard sometimes.

 

 

Thoughts, and ideas?

Edited March 24, 2014 by Lorane_Airwing

[VKhaun]

Massively TL;DR, but from what I skimmed it looks like you're contradicting yourself by talking about playstyles co-existing and then saying you want to deter rushing. In older Livestreams when Rusher v Explorer was a big thing, the comments from DE (Scott mostly IIRC) were not to the effect that they wanted to END rushing or moving quickly as a playstyle, but rather than skipping content and other challenges was the issue.

 

To be blunt but not unfair I would say most 'rushers' are not actually interested in playing the game at a fast pace, they're just lazy inconsiderate gamers who want to get to the end using the fastest, easiest strategy. This is plainly evident in the kinds of responses you get in any thread about rushing where obstacles or hazards are somehow labeled "ANTI RUSHER" even though someone who really likes that play style would be begging for hazards and challenges while offering constructive feedback to make the game more fun and interesting for themselves, instead of OMFG TAKE THEM OUT.

 

 

 

All we need to do to 'fix rushing' is increase the skill cap on rushing with things like hazards, timing checks, specific enemies that need to be killed, and small targets to shoot on the way.

 

Lazy gamers will whine and not be able to easily skip content / challenges anymore. The easiest + fastest strategy overall, would become killing everything and moving at a pace where it's easy to identify hazards.

 

Real rushers will cheer and have more fun than ever avoiding hazards, picking and choosing which enemies to kill and pass up, timing their jumps and slides, shooting small targets without losing speed, etc etc.

Edited March 24, 2014 by VKhaun

[Brimir]

 

Real rushers will cheer and have more fun than ever avoiding hazards, picking and choosing which enemies to kill and pass up, timing their jumps and slides, shooting small targets without losing speed, etc etc.

 

And then why don't we rename the game "Warframe Karts Racing" while we're at it.

[Lorane_Airwing]

Hmmm As far as countering myself, It's likely because I don't want to kill rushing outright because i know there are players that enjoy it as a play style, but i still want to deter it without actively hunting it down like arc traps did. Providing more content through exploration, than players that blindly rush through levels. Changing rushing from being the fastest method into the fastest but least rewarding method of play.

Edited March 24, 2014 by Lorane_Airwing

[VKhaun]

And then why don't we rename the game "Warframe Karts Racing" while we're at it.

 

Actually a very good analogy. We need Banana Peel Lancers, Tortoise Shell drones, and Infested Star Missile Ancients. XD

[Brimir]

Changing rushing from being the fastest method into the fastest but least rewarding method of play.

 

In a sense, it already is: you miss out on a lot of Affinity and Resources by rushing.

 

However, it is a moot point because you have other game modes (Defense, Mob. Defense & Survival) which are far better for farming/leveling than the "rushable" game modes like Capture, Sabotage, Spy and Assassination.

 

 

 

Actually a very good analogy. We need Banana Peel Lancers, Tortoise Shell drones, and Infested Star Missile Ancients. XD

 

lol

 

+1

Edited March 24, 2014 by Brimir

[VKhaun]

Hmmm As far as countering myself, It's likely because I don't want to kill rushing outright because i know there are players that enjoy it as a play style, but i still want to deter it without actively hunting it down like arc traps did. Providing more content through exploration, than players that blindly rush through levels. Changing rushing from being the fastest method into the fastest but least rewarding method of play.

 

Doesn't work.

 

As we saw with Stalker drops, Detron, Oxcium, Brakk and even back to when people farming bosses for 1x drops of rare mats while rushing past tons of containers and lockers that all could drop the same materials. There was a time when I was doing Hyena runs for CM's as Loki with a full rush build, and I'd reliably pull 1-3 CM's on the way there and only get 1x from Hyena about 40% of the time. Then I'd come to the boards and read the wiki, and everyone was saying RUSH HYENA AND KILL IT FOR YOUR CM'S.

 

People tunnel vision on what they want right now. They farm and farm and farm until they get it. Any incentive we put into exploration will just get whined about, farmed, and then everyone will go back to the same old play style. Plenty of precedent to prove that.

[Lorane_Airwing]

In a sense, it already is: you miss out on a lot of Affinity and Resources by rushing.

 

However, it is a moot point because you have other game modes (Defense, Mob. Defense & Survival) which are far better for farming/leveling than the "rushable" game modes like Capture, Sabotage, Spy and Assassination.

 

You are very right on that, but at least players would have a reason to play those missions instead of rushing through them to get to the more lucrative missions. Though as I outlined in the op defense and interception ( possibly hijack when it returns ) have more of a door hero problem than rusher problem, could be related but i am unsure if they are the same players with an inconsiderate mentality. At least individual extraction would allow players to leave when they have either got their fill or had enough of a certain player without risking the mission for anyone else.

[(PSN)ariaandkia]

The real issue is that for some of those ideas to be viable, there would need to be a major overhaul of the system.   Host migrations are a major reason why defense missions end early and why there is some annoyance in certain situations where a host is migrated after obtaining some great loot.

 

In order for people to extract individually, you would need a server host or you'd need a "shared host" system (unlike the current one player host system).  Shared host systems can be very difficult to set up, especially considering lag time and due to the fact that for such a system to work, you'd need to have the game set up efficiently - something that this game does not have at this time.

 

But it really would be nice if they could add some of those.

 

As one person said (VKhaun), they could easily deter rushers with obstacles.  The problem, however, is making the obstacles reasonable.

 

De does not have that balance at this time with making obstacles and making them challenging rather than cheap.

 

Challenges need to be avoidable or have something to make up for their not being avoidable.  Making obstacles that are randomly unavoidable is bad game design.  The problem is that to make them avoidable would reduce the randomness (you'd have set spawn locations on each tile that are tested for visibility in all directions (as in if there is a corridor, you should be able to see the obstacle both directions (though you might not be able to see it if you are going at a high speed or after you reach a certain point, it might be less obvious, but it needs to be detectable before it activates with the player in range).

 

Examples of good obstacles are the void/derelict:

Electrical passage in der goes off every few seconds for several seconds, suggesting danger.  And there is essentially always one set active so players can see that something is odd.

 

Electrified water in der is constantly active and you can see that and for most people, it is easy to connect: electric+muddy water=bad (distilled water does not conduct electricity all that well).

 

Laser panels in tower are very obvious and can be targeted and destroyed (and also have a name that shouts danger).

 

==

 

(Inb4ps4playersknownothing)

 

The flashbang broken light traps were bad because they were potentially unavoidable/undetectable, had bad spawning, and really hurt everyone and not just rushers.

 

The arc traps are bad because they are potentially unavoidable/undetectable, have bad spawning, and really hurt the slower players more than the rushers.  Rushers would just see the trap and likely just ignore the trap because it would be easier to just pass the range.

 

Mag leaders are bad because they are absurdly powerful and potentially unavoidable/undetectable, can spawn in awkward places, and can really hurt the non-rushers just as bad or worse than the rushers-depending on the rusher.

 

===

 

For treasures, we could have little armories in ships and such that are secured with traps (you could assume that normally the users would disarm those traps but that the tenno don't have the key to disarm them).  In a sense, mini obstacle courses.   Now, instead of simply a high chance, make it essentially guaranteed like with void obstacle courses.  And not just resources but also mods.  Perhaps a grineer armory loot area would drop grineer carried mods, and so on).

 

This would give players more of a reason to explore.

 

Maybe give bonuses for exploration as well.  Various maps could have various switches of sorts in little hidden corners.  Activating these switches could not only unlock groups of containers but also could "drop" larger affinity bundles and credit bundles and resource bundles and such that would give the players some minor bonuses based on how many were collected by the player.  For example, 1 collection might only give 1 affinity/credit or 0-1 resources.  2 would give 4 affinity/credit or 0-1 resources, 3 could give 16/0-1, 4 could give 64/0-1, 5 could give 256/1, 6 could give 1024/2, etc.  Then this would be multiplied by how many players got the same amount of those bundles (maybe with a variance of +/-1).    So if you got 6 and someone got 7 and everyone else got 0, you'd get twice as much.  If you got 6 and everyone else got 0, you'd get normal amount.  If you got 7 and everyone else got 6, you'd all get 4 times as much.

 

That would give players a much bigger reason to stay around and look for hidden nodes (exploration) as well as to try to help other players reach those hidden nodes.

 

===

 

For boss battles: Make it teleportation style, perhaps.  Once a player activates a panel, all players are given a chance to decline the teleport or accept it-doing nothing would count as an accept after a minute.   If a player declines the teleport, that player is not teleported and the panel will be deactivated for say a minute.   Second time, it asks again, but this time if the player declines the teleport, after everyone not in the area has accepted/declined, the boss battle begins anyways with the players at the boss battle area.

 

The teleport would be less of the boss action and more of a tenno action (seeing as how we have frames like Nova, would it be that hard to imagine that general tenno have a less stable technology that allows them to teleport fellow tenno?)

 

With that, we could potentially have arena styled boss battle areas with various traps, hazards, and areas for parkour.   I know I already do parkour-like manuevers during certain boss battles (depending on my class) and even normal battles.  It would be nice for some serious parkour battles.

Edited March 24, 2014 by (PS4)ariaandkia

[Lorane_Airwing]

Doesn't work.

 

As we saw with Stalker drops, Detron, Oxcium, Brakk and even back to when people farming bosses for 1x drops of rare mats while rushing past tons of containers and lockers that all could drop the same materials. There was a time when I was doing Hyena runs for CM's as Loki with a full rush build, and I'd reliably pull 1-3 CM's on the way there and only get 1x from Hyena about 40% of the time. Then I'd come to the boards and read the wiki, and everyone was saying RUSH HYENA AND KILL IT FOR YOUR CM'S.

 

People tunnel vision on what they want right now. They farm and farm and farm until they get it. Any incentive we put into exploration will just get whined about, farmed, and then everyone will go back to the same old play style. Plenty of precedent to prove that.

 

Than do you have any ideas that could help. You've been here longer than me (judging by post and founder status ). What do you think would create more incentive to go through levels more slowly than traps that force players to slow down. What would be worth slowing down and exploring to get or to focus stealth to get. People do tunnel vision, it's something the devs mentioned in stream 22 (or 23, not sure ) , that people laser focused exactly what they wanted when they intended it as a bonus for players ( brakk/detron ).

 

 

 

 

As for you ariaandkia, It would likely take an improvement of the host migration system, more reliable host changing, safer hosts vs ping and network instability, also strict nat. Dedicated servers would fix this, though i think they were mentioned in the devstream showcasing the new solar rail hubs "the new york server" though if this is just on the devs end I'm not sure.

 

I avoided obsticals in my post simply because of the recent fiasco with broken lights. Door traps and static hazards seem to be fine, but something difficult to see like arc traps is what gets the community upset.

 

I do like the switch idea, letting players set a goal while playing and than do it, that's why i tried so much to get through the derelict obstacle course even if the reward at the end was absolutely disappointing.

[Taranis49]

Massively TL;DR, but from what I skimmed it looks like you're contradicting yourself by talking about playstyles co-existing and then saying you want to deter rushing. In older Livestreams when Rusher v Explorer was a big thing, the comments from DE (Scott mostly IIRC) were not to the effect that they wanted to END rushing or moving quickly as a playstyle, but rather than skipping content and other challenges was the issue.

 

That may have been true at one point, but they've since explicitly stated that they want people exploring the maps instead of just rushing for the end reward. I can understand and appreciate that too (there's a lot of neat little touches on the maps that most people don't know about).

 

Doesn't work.

 

As we saw with Stalker drops, Detron, Oxcium, Brakk and even back to when people farming bosses for 1x drops of rare mats while rushing past tons of containers and lockers that all could drop the same materials. There was a time when I was doing Hyena runs for CM's as Loki with a full rush build, and I'd reliably pull 1-3 CM's on the way there and only get 1x from Hyena about 40% of the time. Then I'd come to the boards and read the wiki, and everyone was saying RUSH HYENA AND KILL IT FOR YOUR CM'S.

 

People tunnel vision on what they want right now. They farm and farm and farm until they get it. Any incentive we put into exploration will just get whined about, farmed, and then everyone will go back to the same old play style. Plenty of precedent to prove that.

 

It doesn't work because DE's been awful about providing actual incentives to explore or take your time. A stick alone doesn't cut it, you need a carrot too - and for the most part, it's just not there. And I say this as someone that likes to explore and take their time (I generally only rush if the rest of the team is).

 

To go into more detail:

 

You mention rare resources like Control Modules back in the day, and that's actually a good example of the problem, statistically, most people weren't as lucky as you: We know as much from the code excerpt provided by DE's own Steve at the time - the actual odds of Hyena dropping a Module back then were 25%, the odds that a resource drop from a container would be a rare? 2.5%... and that's not even taking into account the fact that bosses always dropped resources whereas containers obviously don't. The actual chances of getting a rare from a container were generally so low that it wasn't worth bothering - fact is the odds were 97.5% that you were getting Ferrite, Nanospores, or a Fieldron Sample, assuming it dropped resources at all. That's horrible for incentivizing exploration and very little has changed since then.

 

The problem's further exacerbated if there's nothing else you need (or want) from the map. In my own case for example, I have all the mods that the enemies from the Void can possibly drop and I definitely don't need the resources that drop from it. The only thing it has a reasonable chance of giving me that I don't already have is one of the Prime BP's I'm missing, and those are rewarded solely for completing the mission. Sure, I suppose I can potentially get one of the mods I don't have from a time-trial, but the odds of it are infinitesimal, and the map isn't guaranteed to come with a time-trial in the first place (which is a shame, because I like doing them if only to keep my parkour skills semi-sharp).

Edited March 24, 2014 by Taranis49

[VKhaun]

Than do you have any ideas that could help. You've been here longer than me (judging by post and founder status ). What do you think would create more incentive to go through levels more slowly than traps that force players to slow down. 

 

A.I. and behavior changes on the enemies and their skills could easily accomplish that.

 

Take Grineer Scorpions for example. The projectile they use tends to miss moving targets. Buff it to hitscan, and put in a requirement to fire it using whatever AI trigger is handy.

 

If they can tell where you're facing then don't let the Scorpion use it if they're in your front 60* arc so they're only hitting people in the sides/back who try to go past them or that they sneak up on. If they can tell your state, then only use the wire on people sprinting or in mid-air. If they can tell relative position, then only use the wire on people who have moved past the Scorpion without shooting her or paying her tree fiddy toll tax. Whatever is available is fine, just so it's not a straight buff to the mob.

 

 

 

 

 

 

It's funny, I was just in another thread earlier tonight where someone said DE hates rushers talking about how absurd that was and how any system could stop rushers. 

 

Another example would be Corpus laser barriers. Program them like doors. We've already seen bugs that show us doors and the ability to move through an area aren't linked, where people will be trapped behind open doors they can't walk through. Just add whatever that is to the doorways that have active lasers. Bam. No more Rhino's in speed helmets being asshats and ignoring cameras while we try to jump-attack through the lasers. They'll have to turn 180* and shoot a camera every three or four rooms. That alone would add enough to rushing that people would at least have to shoot something.

Edited March 24, 2014 by VKhaun

[VKhaun]

That may have been true at one point, but...

 

The problem's further exacerbated if there's nothing else you need (or want) from the map.

 

You basically went full circle in that post lol.... your arguments are interesting, but don't actually ARGUE the point. At the end of the day, any incentive added to going slow will only be an incentive until someone has it, and they will go from not caring and not being incentivized at all, to OMG HAVE TO HAVE IT, and then back to not giving a crap. We've seen this cycle happen many times, even if I was wrong about old rare mat drop rates in specific.

The only incentive I can think of that works forever is XP, because our core is Mastery and our end game is Focus. To use XP as an incentive it would have to be harder to get, or we would have to need A LOT more of it, which either means nerfing Apollodorus or making Focus into an intense grind. Both would cause riots far outside of any playstyle's demographic and be undone quickly.

 

Even if I digress and we agree that some incentive would slow people down... you have now killed rushing. You have brought an incentive that never goes away and everyone wants, that can't be rushed. Anyone who LIKES playing fast is going to say that they've been ruled out of it.

 

I think the closest we'll get will be stealth missions with rewards not available elsewhere, or some other game mode that specifically discourages rushing within that specific mode, but I greatly prefer solutions that involve adding hazards to existing mission types to up the skill cap on rushing and just git rid of the lazy gamers who do it because it's easy. I would have no problem with rushers if they had to devote 8-10 mods and be above average in skill and/or knowledge to make it happen

Edited March 24, 2014 by VKhaun

[TheDamDog]

The best way to punish rushers would be to add enemies that slow players down, which only spawn when more than one player is in a game.

 

Take the Seeker.  Now modify their little rolly grenades such that, instead of exploding, they stick to Tenno and slow them down.  More rolly things means you go slower.  The only way to remove them is for another player to take them off (or for all the other players to quit, of course, in which case they despawn.)  Add something similar for the Corpus.

 

Suddenly, players need to actually stay fairly close together, if only so that they don't wind up moving at 1/50th of their normal speed due to being covered in slow debuffs.  Rushers are automatically corrected by being slowed down to the point where other players catch up to them.

[Scar.Heart]

All we need to do to 'fix rushing' is increase the skill cap on rushing with things like hazards, timing checks, specific enemies that need to be killed, and small targets to shoot on the way.

 

Lazy gamers will whine and not be able to easily skip content / challenges anymore. The easiest + fastest strategy overall, would become killing everything and moving at a pace where it's easy to identify hazards.

 

Real rushers will cheer and have more fun than ever avoiding hazards, picking and choosing which enemies to kill and pass up, timing their jumps and slides, shooting small targets without losing speed, etc etc.

So, if we're going to forcibly slow everybody down to a walking pace, why not start on that cover system implementation?

We already have traps attempting to slow people down.

We have enemies using hitscan weapons, stun-locks for close range, bleed out procs, etc. Due to this, I don't see anybody doing the whole run'n'gun gimmick, unless they have invulnerability/invisibility.

 

Our parkour mechanics are not very useful.

We barely have any rooms that make it worthwhile in a fight.

With a stamina bar to add, we can't move around too much without having to stop and rest like a bunch of fatties. From what I've seen, this encourages sitting on your &#! in one spot and firing away, rather than using parkour to evade/attack enemies.

 

Let's just get that cover system in, yeah? At this point, it makes a lot more sense than parkour.

/blowing off steam

 

P.S. Apologies if this sounded a bit aggressive. I get defensive about the complaints on rushing.

 

 

 

-snip-

-goes invisible- Bye.

 

In all seriousness, this will solve the problem.

Everyone is segregated into their own cliques.

 

Rushers over here, Explorers over there.

 

Now nobody is *@##$ing about how slow or fast the mission is.

/win-win

[Lorane_Airwing]

From what i read people want the mechanics to be more punishing to rushers, The major downside to this would be that solo players as well as lower level players would absolutely NEED to be factored into the new enemies and AI. On a side note, the scorpions used to be instant, except people became angered by always getting hooked even through walls and it was changed to the way it is now. One possible change to curb rushing than would be to change lock downs. again, on a pure player basis. If a player is rushing it's unlikely they are killing enemies, having large groups of enemies behind you ( they have to be actively attacking you of course/ aware ) would cause lock downs and trap you in a room. Simply by rushing a player would again be put at a disadvantage of needing to continually unlock the doors. This of course would not happen if the player is slowing down and killing enemies, the main issue that would cause is how many enemies alive constitutes you rushing as well as how many enemies behind you does it take to trigger an instant lock down on a rushing player?

 

I definitely stand beside the two door types, they are noticeable obstacles with simple ways to deactivate them. I only wish that there was never a way past them and that you NEED to take them out, For instance you can copter through laser doors still. Though grineer doors seem fine with a full energy and shield drain.

 

The mini-roller change might be welcomed, but again it would need to be something balanced for solo and low level players. While i am on the fence on punishing rushers directly i feel the missions should have more incentive to be slow than to go fast.

 

I like the idea of affinity having a roll in treasure rooms, as well as those stealth rooms i mentioned in the op. stealing grineer plans for large amounts of affinity instead of filling hoards of enemies could do. finding a treasure room and opening a locker inside it could give a satisfying "hidden room found" affinity gain! If affinity is going to be the end game goal than there needs to be more ways to gain it than just kill something move on.

 

I do feel rushing is a valid mode of play, and i do agree there needs to be challenge to it, the doors do that. Possibly the mini-rollers slowing you down as well. Killing enemies you know would slow you down could be a focus of rushing instead of JUST rushing.

[Axterix13]

I don't think most people prefer rushing, per se, but rather that they like to play efficiently.  For trivial content, with trivial rewards, that means go fast.

 

Part of the problem is that the game constantly encourages us to go do content we've outleveled.  It isn't challenging.  You don't need the reward.  So you just want the shiny thing at the end.  This problem could be partially addressed by having a "level 30-40 enemies" mode, which would require a certain conclave score.  It would reward extra credits (and potentially a higher drop chance), potentially a random mod at the end (it'll typically be common, but you could get lucky).  I know I'd gladly play something like that over facing some mobs that drop in one bullet.  But it isn't an option I have.

 

Beyond that, I'd like to see is lockers and such made more rewarding.  These are the places the majority of mats should come from, rather than killing things.  Picking them up should also split them amongst the team, just like credits work.  And speaking of credits, guess where a good chunk of them should be coming from?  And they could stand to have a higher mod drop chance too.  The affinity orbs also need to be tweaked.  Currently, they only help your frame, as far as I can tell.  That needs to change to being all your gear, or maybe just your frame and currently equipped weapon (with melee 2.0 coming).  Ideally, combine this with a change of the xp system, so that explorers can explore while killers kill, and each benefits from the work of the other, without that pesky range limitation... but done in a way that doesn't encourage AFK'ing more than the game already does.

 

Basically, an option with a carrot, and a carrot.

Edited March 24, 2014 by Axterix13

[Lorane_Airwing]

I don't think most people prefer rushing, per se, but rather that they like to play efficiently.  For trivial content, with trivial rewards, that means go fast.

 

Part of the problem is that the game constantly encourages us to go do content we've outleveled.  It isn't challenging.  You don't need the reward.  So you just want the shiny thing at the end.  This problem could be partially addressed by having a "level 30-40 enemies" mode, which would require a certain conclave score.  It would reward extra credits (and potentially a higher drop chance), potentially a random mod at the end (it'll typically be common, but you could get lucky).  I know I'd gladly play something like that over facing some mobs that drop in one bullet.  But it isn't an option I have.

 

Beyond that, I'd like to see is lockers and such made more rewarding.  These are the places the majority of mats should come from, rather than killing things.  Picking them up should also split them amongst the team, just like credits work.  And speaking of credits, guess where a good chunk of them should be coming from?  And they could stand to have a higher mod drop chance too.  The affinity orbs also need to be tweaked.  Currently, they only help your frame, as far as I can tell.  That needs to change to being all your gear, or maybe just your frame and currently equipped weapon (with melee 2.0 coming).  Ideally, combine this with a change of the xp system, so that explorers can explore while killers kill, and each benefits from the work of the other, without that pesky range limitation... but done in a way that doesn't encourage AFK'ing more than the game already does.

 

Basically, an option with a carrot, and a carrot.

 

I've always considered the idea of locking planets to some kind of conclave rating, you would need to have a basic conclave rating to move ahead to the next area, and de-equip mods to go back to earlier planets, a way of limiting level 30 potatoed lokis with 1 weapon they want to level up from mingling on appolodorus. Possibly enabling more nodes to see use because of it? It seems a bit drastic to cut out entire sections now that DE is releasing a game mode per planet apparently, at the least it should be a recommendation maybe, or a one time unlock for new players when they reach that conclave rating?

 

 

and yeah, more reasons to explore, changing resources to being a team thing would help. I'd think that people afking missions would stop at least part way with the per-player extraction system i outlined. Though i still see players waiting for the group to do the work for them before leaving the mission. Though he would be broken from the squad and the other players could at least do time sensitive invasions ( lots of people with potato invasion frustrations ).

[Axterix13]

I've always considered the idea of locking planets to some kind of conclave rating, you would need to have a basic conclave rating to move ahead to the next area, and de-equip mods to go back to earlier planets, a way of limiting level 30 potatoed lokis with 1 weapon they want to level up from mingling on appolodorus. Possibly enabling more nodes to see use because of it? It seems a bit drastic to cut out entire sections now that DE is releasing a game mode per planet apparently, at the least it should be a recommendation maybe, or a one time unlock for new players when they reach that conclave rating?

That would just be too big of an annoyance.  Having to put on and take off stuff all the time...  just no.  Even automatic would be less than ideal, since it wouldn't be set up how I wanted it.  And the conclave rating to advance doesn't really work either, since that's just one frame.  You could do Mastery, but again, no point to that with how the game is currently implemented.  Overall, advancing is mostly fine as it is, other than taxi'ing unlocking planets.  It is fine that someone can invite another along to something they haven't unlocked, but it shouldn't unlock for them until they progress there in the normal fashion.

 

A better matchmaking system could help though.  Something to help people find similar types to run missions with.  Just asking in recruiting doesn't work too well.  Even as is, it is pretty spammy.  If you added a ton more people asking stuff...

 

 

 

and yeah, more reasons to explore, changing resources to being a team thing would help. I'd think that people afking missions would stop at least part way with the per-player extraction system i outlined. Though i still see players waiting for the group to do the work for them before leaving the mission. Though he would be broken from the squad and the other players could at least do time sensitive invasions ( lots of people with potato invasion frustrations ).

Yeah, people leaving individually would help for all but exterminate.  In the other missions, stuff spawns.  So he'd at least have to work his way through that.

 

Though I think the AFK thing is not really that common, and partially due to the design.  When an alert for the Vauban part you need goes up or a potato invasion, you've got a limited amount of time before it goes poof.  If someone is busy with other stuff in real life, well, it is no wonder that they choose to leech.  To get rid of that, you'd have to revamp the entire system, to something more like a daily set of missions, which are good for 24 hours.  But that's another matter from what you're trying to tackle here.

[Taranis49]

You basically went full circle in that post lol.... your arguments are interesting, but don't actually ARGUE the point. At the end of the day, any incentive added to going slow will only be an incentive until someone has it, and they will go from not caring and not being incentivized at all, to OMG HAVE TO HAVE IT, and then back to not giving a crap. We've seen this cycle happen many times, even if I was wrong about old rare mat drop rates in specific.

The only incentive I can think of that works forever is XP, because our core is Mastery and our end game is Focus. To use XP as an incentive it would have to be harder to get, or we would have to need A LOT more of it, which either means nerfing Apollodorus or making Focus into an intense grind. Both would cause riots far outside of any playstyle's demographic and be undone quickly.

 

Even if I digress and we agree that some incentive would slow people down... you have now killed rushing. You have brought an incentive that never goes away and everyone wants, that can't be rushed. Anyone who LIKES playing fast is going to say that they've been ruled out of it.

 

I think the closest we'll get will be stealth missions with rewards not available elsewhere, or some other game mode that specifically discourages rushing within that specific mode, but I greatly prefer solutions that involve adding hazards to existing mission types to up the skill cap on rushing and just git rid of the lazy gamers who do it because it's easy. I would have no problem with rushers if they had to devote 8-10 mods and be above average in skill and/or knowledge to make it happen

 

Except that's not really the case. I covered this in the post; e.g. totally random mods from containers would be a potential incentive to explore, but the only tileset where that's the case is the Void - and even then only sometimes, since there's no guarantee the map'll actually have a time-trial or the mission itself penalizes taking your time for unnecessary exploration, e.g. Survival (there's also the issue that the containers themselves seem to have lower quality drops than they did in updates past).

 

Mods are pretty much always in demand too - by his own account, even the guy that was #1 on the old PC global kill leaderboard right up until shortly before it was retired wasn't able to get every mod to drop.

 

The question to ask is: "why do people rush?" (and it's not because it's easier, more efficient and less time-consuming, yes, easier no), asking "how do we reduce it?" is putting the cart before the horse. And if you're arguing that "they should need to devote 8-10 mods just so they can rush", you're not arguing for a higher skill requirement no matter how you slice it, you're arguing for a gear-check solely because you apparently dislike their play-style (which is no less valid than non-rushing).

 

The fact remains that there's really no carrot to slow down, take your time or explore - aside from the Void loot rooms, every attempt at providing one's been, at best, half-assed. At current, even in the cases where the rewards aren't solely on the side of simple completion (e.g. frame BP's and Prime BP's/Components), they're ridiculously loaded on that end, e.g. credits (which are also frequently in demand, since pretty much everything in the game requires them) - a T3 Capture nets a minimum of around 25k credits and if rushed can be completed in about five mins, even if you check every nook and cranny for containers/lockers with Master Thief equipped, I'd lay good odds that you're not going to exceed the completion reward, and it'll still take atleast three times as long.

 

Positive encouragement generally works better than its negative counterpart; even real-world militaries operate with this in mind.

Edited March 24, 2014 by Taranis49

[VKhaun]

Sorry, but you're still going in circles. Once again you end your post with 'that there's really no carrot to slow down, take your time or explore' but there are TONS of reasons to loot everything in warframe. They're just not meaningful to you anymore because you found/farmed/spent/crafted them already. The same will be true of anything else except maybe XP.

 

Don't get me wrong. I would love more stuff to find and I think we definitely need to improve the exploration aspect with some equivalent to treasure chests. I'm not arguing AGAINST stuff to find.

 

I'm arguing that it would not solve the problems of rushing being so easy and so effective and so detrimental to the play experience of anyone not rushing.

Edited March 24, 2014 by VKhaun

[LukeAura]

Sorry, but you're still going in circles. Once again you end your post with 'that there's really no carrot to slow down, take your time or explore' but there are TONS of reasons to loot everything in warframe. They're just not meaningful to you anymore because you found/farmed/spent/crafted them already. The same will be true of anything else except maybe XP.

 

I'm arguing that it would not solve the problems of rushing being so easy and so effective and so detrimental to the play experience of anyone not rushing.

I've looted entire levels and generally found that there is no reason to loot everything in a mission. I'll loot every locker and chest on the way to an objective, but I'm not taking side routes anymore, even sitting on 3 out of the 10 orokin cells I need for a Detron right now. 

I think the problem there is that it's actually faster to loot rooms linearly. When going off the path, one not only has to run through the room, but then has to backtrack through it, sometimes multiple times if there are more than one side paths from that point. Spending effectively double the time moving through that room, for an equal amount of reward. RNG already makes hunting for materials a pain, the chance of failure and increasing the time it takes will turn people off from doing so. The game is essentially rewarding less backtracking, as it doesn't compensate for the extra time spent moving back through already scoured rooms.

The problem with creating an item that is detrimental to rushing is that it's hard to not also make them detrimental to general play experience and gameplay flow/pacing at the same time. It'd be easier, maybe a little less effective, but at the same time far less hazardous to the whole experience, just to create those explorer/rusher/general/don't care tags for when you're creating or seeking to join a game. 

 

[Deristel]

stupid and easy solution: Click on a node.Choose Rushing mode,Extended mode.Profit. but the player base is already low i guess.. filtering the 2 group would make online experience worse

[Taranis49]

Sorry, but you're still going in circles. Once again you end your post with 'that there's really no carrot to slow down, take your time or explore' but there are TONS of reasons to loot everything in warframe. They're just not meaningful to you anymore because you found/farmed/spent/crafted them already. The same will be true of anything else except maybe XP.

 

Don't get me wrong. I would love more stuff to find and I think we definitely need to improve the exploration aspect with some equivalent to treasure chests. I'm not arguing AGAINST stuff to find.

 

I'm arguing that it would not solve the problems of rushing being so easy and so effective and so detrimental to the play experience of anyone not rushing.

 

Sorry, but it's not "going in circles" just because you apparently can't provide an actual answer as to what incentives exist to not rush. ;-)

 

If there's "tons of reasons to loot everything" rather than just rush, then it shouldn't be all that difficult for you to actually list them. The sad fact is that there really isn't any, even for somebody who hasn't found/farmed/built them already. Nobody needs six-digit amounts of Alloy Plates and Nanospores, and these are the sorts of figures you can expect to obtain even without deliberate exploration. Yet, in the bulk of the missions (even key-locked missions) they're all that exploration will yield the overwhelming majority of the time... again, generously assuming it yields anything.

 

You tried providing one example when it came to rare resources based on anecdotal evidence and even then the fact is that the actual math doesn't support exploration or "looting everything" in that case, due to diminishing returns on time investment, since there's only a 2.5% chance that a resource drop from a container will be a rare... which is basically low enough to be "don't bother" territory, even if you do need them. It's made even worse since according to the last definitive figures we had, even non-boss enemies actually have an identical chance to drop rare resources as containers, plus those enemies are available in far higher numbers, and will actually come to you rather than having to seek them out (particularly on Defense/Mobile Defense/Survival).

 

Hell, you even admit rushing's "so effective", the tacit admission there is that exploration isn't.

Edited March 24, 2014 by Taranis49

[Zephyric_Reaper]

People rushing aren't the problem. And your idea pretty much kills the co-op feeling and benefit of the game. 

The problem mainly is that enemies aren't quite a big force to go against and thus it's easy to just run past them. If there was a line up of shield lancers then I bet a rusher would be well toasted, but no, there's no formations, no enemy squads, enemies can't lock you in a room to fight them (sort of). Enemies need mechanics to deal with the jumping rabbits we are instead of just upping their power level or put a bandaid fix for rushers.