Enemy Ai Is Actually Well Developed

[blackraver]

The enemy behaviors are actually pretty complex and awesome, the only problem we kill them too fast to appreciate it. Lancers and troopers love to wait on the sides of an entranceway waiting for you to approach or run past them before opening fire. Units will actually stand behind shield lancers as mobile cover,cand the shield lancers only rush ahead when no one is using them as cover. Ballista snipers keep range and will run if you approach.

Scorchers run from cover to cover to acquire range, and heavies slowly stalk towards you, soaking up damage from allies.

All the behavior is there,, they just die too fast for us to notice. Enemies need a buff. Or maybe a shift in how enemies are presented to the player. All the tactics in the world won't save you if you are blown away like loose sand on a windy day. I would propose a significant drop in the number of enemies spawned in return for much stronger enemies. Right now they are spawned in waves and die like trash. Make them menacing, make them stronger, remove hitscan from the game, and reduce their number. In this way frames won't need to be nerfed since enemies will be able to survive their attacks and more emphasis can be placed on ninja mobility to survive attacks.

Or just make it a new mode like "elite platoon" to see the response. I just want tough enemies outside of nightmare mode with no shields...

[BrotherIcarus]

I disagree about the whole drastic changes to the game play but if it were implemented as a new mode or maybe a nightmare mode then yes sounds very fun and interested.

 

You never know the badlands may be something like this.

[Jag272]

Personally i agree with the elite platoon idea, build upon the leader idea. I definitely agree with the idea of enemies actually having quite good AI, the trouble is that the game, even for non-rushers, is quite fast paced and i imagine alot of people enjoy it because of that, if we give enemies a buff across the board you risk completely shifting the game's pacing which can alienate the players. However spawning an elite platoon once or twice a mission, perhaps leader squads, seems like a good idea to me, keeps the same pace of the game but gives you something to be more challenged by in the mission too.

 

A separate elite platoon mode entirely in the same way as nightmare mode might also work quite well as you suggested, just dont force it upon the entire playerbase because forcing such a drastic pace change will have very negative effects generally.

 

 And as BrotherIcarus said the badlands might actually cover this, i believe it was the last livestream in which they touched on being able to hire troops to protect your towers in the badlands as they talked about having the G3 etc protecting you, if this is the case you may be able to recruit entire leader squad's to protect the tower but that remains to be seen.

Edited March 24, 2014 by Jag272

[Orbister]

I would love to fight against an organized group instead of cannon fodder horde, when you start is kinda like that, as we are very weak compared to a fully built frame enemies are a lot stronger, and this forces you to behave accordingly, when you get strong its kinda like Diablo (III) ...

Edited March 24, 2014 by Orbister

[Keldamnar]

The AI is ok, the real problem is the movement. No enemy seems to have mass. Try to headshot them with a slow shooting singleshot weapon from the distance (try the Lanka, it is a PAIN). You will see their movement ist very unpredictable. They turn on their heels and change direction so fast, you can't tell where to shoot. Grineer wear heavy armor, so it should be impossible for them to stop instantly when running fast. The cover mechanic is somehow broken too. When they decide to use cover, they "teleport" behind it. But after taking cover, they use an nice smooth animation, very predictable. That's frustrating if you ask me. My conclusion: Enemys need momentum!

Edited March 24, 2014 by Keldamnar

[kaboomonme]

Basically, less DPS-race and more tactical gameplay?

+ 10000

[Noble_Cactus]

The AI is ok, the real problem is the movement. No enemy seems to have mass. Try to headshot them with a slow shooting singleshot weapon from the distance (try the Lanka, it is a PAIN). You will see their movement ist very unpredictable. They turn on their heels and change direction so fast, you can't tell where to shoot. Grineer wear heavy armor, so it should be impossible for them to stop instantly when running fast. The cover mechanic is somehow broken too. When they decide to use cover, they "teleport" behind it. But after taking cover, they use an nice smooth animation, very predictable. That's frustrating if you ask me. My conclusion: Enemys need momentum!

 

They read your inputs on the dime. I aimed at a Seeker's latcher that was stuck  on the pod a while back and it MOVED out of my crosshairs to the side. I couldn't help but laugh.

 

Sometimes, if you slowly wave your crosshairs around in tiny circles near an enemy, you can get them to run around behind cover and out behind it. It's pretty silly.

 

You know what I'd like to see Commanders and other potential leader enemies do? Direct troops. Allow them to make calls that determine how enemies will approach your squad, whether through flanking, forming a pincer, etc. None of this "teleport the player away from the crowd upon coming into their line of sight." Something for players to listen for. Also adds a high-priority enemy for players to elimate quickly and efficiently.

[kaboomonme]

You know what I'd like to see Commanders and other potential leader enemies do? Direct troops. Allow them to make calls that determine how enemies will approach your squad, whether through flanking, forming a pincer, etc. None of this "teleport the player away from the crowd upon coming into their line of sight." Something for players to listen for. Also adds a high-priority enemy for players to elimate quickly and efficiently.

I also recall DE was working on reworking some of the animations for the Grineer, as even an enemy with the most advanced AI would look stupid stumbling in and out of cover like a bunch of confused muffins on legs.

IMO the current shared animations fit the Corpus, but not the Grineer. The Grineer need a more distinct, heavy-duty super cyborg vibe to it, stomping through hallways with purpose, instead of the current "OH S#&$ RUN FROM THE TENNOS". 

The leader should also have distinct voice commands and noticeable animations while directing the troops. These improvements would help to improve the general feel of enemy AI, if anything.

Also, they need to improve the pathfinding, Watching Elite Lancers constantly run into walls is both entertaining yet depressing at the same time.

[K_Shiro]

I would like to disagree.

 

First of all, you nearly listed all of the parts of the AI that can be brought up as "intelligence". That is actually all interaction they do, all other times they just

- Rush at you and die or overwhelm you.

- Stay in cover even though you are standing behind them.

- Run around like headless chicken looking for cover, most of the time jumping out of a proper cover into your fire just so he can find another one...

- Standing in the middle of the corridor shooting at you or plain being a suicidal idiot running around.

 

Hell, there are countless times when you just stand there, in the middle of the room, they run around and do nothing as they are so preoccupied with finding a "proper" spot.

 

The infested is fine, they are mainly mindless monsters, but trained soldiers shouldn't be like this. Hell, they are usually killed because they start "retreating" and "looking for cover" at the most inappropiate times actually jumping into your fire or plain turning their backs on you.

 

- Scary Tenno set off the alarm? AI soldiers line up like a death squad and wait for them to appear! If you know where they are why rushing into them? If you don't know where they are why running around like headless chicken? Wait for them at key locations! At least there would be a meaning to go around those points and stab poor AI soldier in the abdomen from behind.

- If there is no cover make one! AI soldier that has it availible drops a smoke grenade! Or calls for a corpus drone that deploys a "hardlight" wall that soaks up incoming damage the further away you are or only let's through AI corpus shots, whatever. Or if nothing else, use that big bad heavy guy as cover!

- Can't make cover? AI soldier kneels down for lower profile and extra accuracy when there is no other means of cover.

- Even that doesn't work? AI soldier slowly backs away while firing in a less accurate manner, holding his "unused" arm up a bit in front to cover his weakspots, preferably holding a close to crouching stance for lower profile. Calls for help. Maybe other AI soldiers actually try to cover him.

 

The problem with the game that it tries to be fast but still providing challenge. First part meanst no detailed interaction with the soldiers can be possible as it stand currently thus the 2nd part, the challenge can only come from them having high health, damage and numbers. In fact I don't see how you kill them so fast, ranked 100 enemies tend to survive quite long for me and their AI still seems weak as hell.

Remember ONI? Check it out. That was good and challenging and even then the AI was pretty weak.

[Paradoxbomb]

The AI is actually pretty good on Solo, I always find myself falling for those tricky Grineer hiding behind doors. It's just when you have four players that the AI turns to wet noodles and can't choose whether to attack or keep running in a circle to lull you into a state of confusion. This leads to all those issues that the people before me mentioned: running at you like morons, taking cover right next to you, turning on a dime when you're trying to headshot them.

 

I suppose there are engine limitations, but we still need some improvement for AI dealing with multiple players. I also agree that we need stronger enemies that can actually take a punch, not exclusively Heavies, but maybe every now and then have a hoard of several stronger units run in instead of the same 50 fodder enemies.

 

 

P.S. What ever happened to Leaders being able to coordinate smaller units. Could've sworn that was gonna be a thing.

[notionphil]

The enemy behaviors are actually pretty complex and awesome, the only problem we kill them too fast to appreciate it. Lancers and troopers love to wait on the sides of an entranceway waiting for you to approach or run past them before opening fire. Units will actually stand behind shield lancers as mobile cover,cand the shield lancers only rush ahead when no one is using them as cover. Ballista snipers keep range and will run if you approach.

Scorchers run from cover to cover to acquire range, and heavies slowly stalk towards you, soaking up damage from allies.

All the behavior is there,, they just die too fast for us to notice. Enemies need a buff. Or maybe a shift in how enemies are presented to the player. All the tactics in the world won't save you if you are blown away like loose sand on a windy day. I would propose a significant drop in the number of enemies spawned in return for much stronger enemies. Right now they are spawned in waves and die like trash. Make them menacing, make them stronger, remove hitscan from the game, and reduce their number. In this way frames won't need to be nerfed since enemies will be able to survive their attacks and more emphasis can be placed on ninja mobility to survive attacks.

Or just make it a new mode like "elite platoon" to see the response. I just want tough enemies outside of nightmare mode with no shields...

 

+100, favorite post of the week, and the week just started.

 

Even enemy commanders die with a swift kick in the shins. The problem is that our weapons and powers are so, many, many leagues above all enemies in the game. The enemies need reinforcements!

 

The only part I disagree with is removing trash mobs. Trash mobs are fine, they exist to show us how powerful we are. However, we need more tough mobs who also have that level of power. We need to intersperse more 'tiers' of mobs into the current spawns.

 

 

-trash

-heavies

-commanders (these guys need more defensve buffs, offensive part is fine)

-elites (mobs with boss-like immunity, hopefully not "stages" but at least very small weak spots, or only weak after an attack (IE: ruk with less AoE).

 

Elites would be defensively stronger than stalker/G3/harv, but offensively weaker. Getting one shot is not anymore fun than oneshotting an enemy.

[notionphil]

 the challenge can only come from them having high health, damage and numbers.

 

 

Challenge can also come from them having unique defensive and offensive powers/conditions which require strategy for you to defeat.

 

That is what is missing - not better fodder-troop AI.

 

Imagine a "Corpus Judicator", with a shoulder mounted Penta (timed grenades), and dual cestas. He's 100% protected by an invulnerable shield from the front, has an Orokin Ward to make him power invulnerable while his shield is up - maybe he can even extend that protection to his closest allies.

 

Can't snipe him, ult him or CC him. Your routines are now broken. You'll have to go toe to toe with him to remove his shield, or flank him to damage him from behind. Maybe create a diversion? Or double team him with a friend?

 

This was just a quick example, but the point is, more can be done besides just HP stacking to make combat interesting. Enemies that turn invisble when wounded? How about one that can mass revive? Or one that group teleports away as you cast powers? One that reflects bullets back at you?

Edited March 24, 2014 by notionphil

[Paradoxbomb]

Elites would be defensively stronger than stalker/G3/harv, but offensively weaker. Getting one shot is not anymore fun than oneshotting an enemy.

 

Think we could make Stalker into an actual mini-boss instead of a "one-shot or get one-shot" encounter as well. Everyone says he's too easy because they kill the second he spawns in with their 5-forma'd Brakk, but if you don't kill him before then you get one hit KO'd by his shield ignoring arrows, which is actually incredibly OP. He should do less damage but have a lot more health so the fight actually lasts more than 2 seconds for both parties.

[blackraver]

Adding "elite platoons" would definately be better as a game mode or random mission occurrence. You wouldn't have to worry about changing the games pace because honestly it would feel like being a new player. You can be a noob trying to hid behind cover or you can be a trained Tenno wall running and flipping and kicking your way to victory. Hitscan weapons need to go to make mobility a more viable strategy

[K_Shiro]

Challenge can also come from them having unique defensive and offensive powers/conditions which require strategy for you to defeat.

 

That is what is missing - not better fodder-troop AI.

 

Imagine a "Corpus Judicator", with a shoulder mounted Penta (timed grenades), and dual cestas. He's 100% protected by an invulnerable shield from the front, has an Orokin Ward to make him power invulnerable while his shield is up - maybe he can even extend that protection to his closest allies.

 

Can't snipe him, ult him or CC him. Your routines are now broken. You'll have to go toe to toe with him to remove his shield, or flank him to damage him from behind. Maybe create a diversion? Or double team him with a friend?

 

This was just a quick example, but the point is, more can be done besides just HP stacking to make combat interesting. Enemies that turn invisble when wounded? How about one that can mass revive? Or one that group teleports away as you cast powers? One that reflects bullets back at you?

 

You really should read a full article. I was saying that right now that is how the game is and DE seems to think that challenge means more hp/damage/spawn amount.

 

Yes, giving extra abilities to enemies can spice things up - but as how things are, a better AI is still necessary because even if your enemy appears, it would only mean we are overwhelmed by the idiotic enemies that simply rush at you. Hell, right now they would just run around and most likely most of them wouldn't even benefit from his presence.

 

I'm not asking for that much, removal of random events when the enemy suddenly jumps out of cover to run around, when enemies can't find cover but keep trying to even though they are being shot at, enemies staying in cover even though you are behind the same cover... things like this. They should try to stick together a bit, know that standing in the middle of the corridor just like that is not healthy also have at least a remote consideration for their own wellbeing and try some form of retreat when they are dying. Just to name a few, actually pretty easy to implement ideas.

[Taranis49]

You know what I'd like to see Commanders and other potential leader enemies do? Direct troops. Allow them to make calls that determine how enemies will approach your squad, whether through flanking, forming a pincer, etc. None of this "teleport the player away from the crowd upon coming into their line of sight." Something for players to listen for. Also adds a high-priority enemy for players to elimate quickly and efficiently.

 

This. To basically cut and paste what I've said elsewhere:

 

Commanders should, god forbid, actually lead their troops. I've yet to see a good reason why they even have a Loki's Switch Tele in the first place (particularly since frame abilities are what supposedly make them unique) and even moreso since the Grineer already have the Scorpion to forcibly move you around the map and stun you in the process.

 

I mean, it's possible the Army did it wrong, but I distinctly remember my commanders actually lead the guys under their command, atleast for the most part :-P

 

You really should read a full article. I was saying that right now that is how the game is and DE seems to think that challenge means more hp/damage/spawn amount.

 

Yes, giving extra abilities to enemies can spice things up - but as how things are, a better AI is still necessary because even if your enemy appears, it would only mean we are overwhelmed by the idiotic enemies that simply rush at you. Hell, right now they would just run around and most likely most of them wouldn't even benefit from his presence.

 

I'm not asking for that much, removal of random events when the enemy suddenly jumps out of cover to run around, when enemies can't find cover but keep trying to even though they are being shot at, enemies staying in cover even though you are behind the same cover... things like this. They should try to stick together a bit, know that standing in the middle of the corridor just like that is not healthy also have at least a remote consideration for their own wellbeing and try some form of retreat when they are dying. Just to name a few, actually pretty easy to implement ideas.

 

Agreed, it's incredibly silly when you have some Grineer shmuck on Phobos simply running in circles, or when they suddenly decide to drop everything, turn their back to you and make a 100-yard dash across the open desert in the opposite direction.

 

Bare minimum, the Grineer AI simply needs to be far more aggressive; they should be steadily advancing on the player's position. They're supposedly marines, as the wisdom used to go "they fight or they drown".

 

Right now the Grineer generally tend to be cowardly sacks of crap :-(

Edited March 25, 2014 by Taranis49

[(PSN)ariaandkia]

I would like to disagree.

 

First of all, you nearly listed all of the parts of the AI that can be brought up as "intelligence". That is actually all interaction they do, all other times they just

- Rush at you and die or overwhelm you.

- Stay in cover even though you are standing behind them.

- Run around like headless chicken looking for cover, most of the time jumping out of a proper cover into your fire just so he can find another one...

- Standing in the middle of the corridor shooting at you or plain being a suicidal idiot running around.

 

Hell, there are countless times when you just stand there, in the middle of the room, they run around and do nothing as they are so preoccupied with finding a "proper" spot.

 

The infested is fine, they are mainly mindless monsters, but trained soldiers shouldn't be like this. Hell, they are usually killed because they start "retreating" and "looking for cover" at the most inappropiate times actually jumping into your fire or plain turning their backs on you.

 

- Scary Tenno set off the alarm? AI soldiers line up like a death squad and wait for them to appear! If you know where they are why rushing into them? If you don't know where they are why running around like headless chicken? Wait for them at key locations! At least there would be a meaning to go around those points and stab poor AI soldier in the abdomen from behind.

- If there is no cover make one! AI soldier that has it availible drops a smoke grenade! Or calls for a corpus drone that deploys a "hardlight" wall that soaks up incoming damage the further away you are or only let's through AI corpus shots, whatever. Or if nothing else, use that big bad heavy guy as cover!

- Can't make cover? AI soldier kneels down for lower profile and extra accuracy when there is no other means of cover.

- Even that doesn't work? AI soldier slowly backs away while firing in a less accurate manner, holding his "unused" arm up a bit in front to cover his weakspots, preferably holding a close to crouching stance for lower profile. Calls for help. Maybe other AI soldiers actually try to cover him.

 

The problem with the game that it tries to be fast but still providing challenge. First part meanst no detailed interaction with the soldiers can be possible as it stand currently thus the 2nd part, the challenge can only come from them having high health, damage and numbers. In fact I don't see how you kill them so fast, ranked 100 enemies tend to survive quite long for me and their AI still seems weak as hell.

Remember ONI? Check it out. That was good and challenging and even then the AI was pretty weak.

 

I have to agree with this.

 

The general/base AI is fine, but there are some specifics that really need to be worked out.  Specifically the combat and movement parts of the AI.  It is absurd how stupid the AI can be.  And yet, even the infested show that they can have intelligence.  So why is it that they do some of the most absurd things like standing all in a group when I'm charging up my glaive to throw it for the tenth time -and often the third or fourth time against that particular group) on wave 60 when I've been using the glaive the entire time?

 

Also, as others know, the animations.  I should not be missing a shot because my target suddenly teleported (unless that was an actual ability of theirs) and I'm not talking about lag teleportation-that is expected.  I should be missing a shot because they suddenly dove or jumped away-or even stopped when they saw me shooting them. It has gotten to the point where I often fire my glaive behind the enemy and move myself so that the glaive comes back into them-to combat their teleportation. 

[Deristel]

I just think they should add a cap damage based on enemy level.this way.Something like guild war 2 level system you know.You get deleveled based on the area you're in.I would like to see something like,doing 5% damage by rifle bullet (way more if it's an ogris,penta,bow or slow shoting guns) maximum.This way even if you have a full formaed and modded boltor prime you could actually enjoy doing survival even at minute 1 instead of waiting 40-50 minute.Ofcourse,in survival like in any "endless" mission enemy level rise,so if you have a strong weapon you'll still deal the 5% max hp damage per bullet untill you get to a point where enemies are so strong that your weapon will deal less damage (example,6th wave of interception.enemies lvl 96,jeez).

[notionphil]

You really should read a full article. I was saying that right now that is how the game is and DE seems to think that challenge means more hp/damage/spawn amount.

Yes, giving extra abilities to enemies can spice things up - but as how things are, a better AI is still necessary because even if your enemy appears, it would only mean we are overwhelmed by the idiotic enemies that simply rush at you. Hell, right now they would just run around and most likely most of them wouldn't even benefit from his presence.

I'm not asking for that much, removal of random events when the enemy suddenly jumps out of cover to run around, when enemies can't find cover but keep trying to even though they are being shot at, enemies staying in cover even though you are behind the same cover... things like this. They should try to stick together a bit, know that standing in the middle of the corridor just like that is not healthy also have at least a remote consideration for their own wellbeing and try some form of retreat when they are dying. Just to name a few, actually pretty easy to implement ideas.

I agree that it would be nice if enemies behaved less 'stupidly' but I don't think it will change anything. We simply have so much power that their actions are meaningless. They could "line up in a death squad" as you said (which I would love) but it would be their own quick death they are lining up for.

One press of 3 or 4 on almost all frames would destroy every single 'strategy' they have. Heck, we can even shoot them THROUGH cover with many mods. Not to mention regenerating shields, huge AoE guns, jump AoE slams. What difference will taking better cover make? It will just slightly slow their demise, and sure make them a hint more interesting to slaughter. But it won't introduce a single ounce of challenge.

So yea, your post is valid but that won't solve the problem. The problem is utter lack of challenge (besides hp/dam scale). Enemies need better TOOLS to combat/resist our incredible power, not just better sense. All the sense in the world won't make it challenging or fun for you to slaughter a elderly sheep, using a Gatling gun.

If you read my first post in this thread I am proposing that it's ok for trash mobs (that's what these are) to act like fodder. It makes us feel powerful.

However we need some higher tier mobs that behave in the ways you suggest, and have the tools to live long enough for us to see it.

 

EDIT - added 'just', underlined

Edited March 25, 2014 by notionphil

[Taranis49]

I agree that it would be nice if enemies behaved less 'stupidly' but I don't think it will change anything. We simply have so much power that their actions are meaningless. They could "line up in a death squad" as you said (which I would love) but it would be their own quick death they are lining up for.

One press of 3 or 4 on almost all frames would destroy every single 'strategy' they have. Heck, we can even shoot them THROUGH cover with many mods.

So yea, your post is valid but that won't solve the problem. Enemies need better TOOLS to combat/resist our incredible power, not better sense.

If you read my first post in this thread I am proposing that it's ok for trash mobs (that's what these are) to act like fodder. It makes us feel powerful.

However we need some higher tier mobs that behave in the ways you suggest, and have the tools to live long enough for us to see it.

 

They need both, it's not an either/or position - tools are just as meaningless if they don't have the sense to use them effectively.

 

Commanders are a good example of such. I've had them teleport me into cover, behind their guys just as often as they teleport me into a potentially difficult position (to say nothing of the one that decided to switch places while I was a good 50 feet above solid ground, I never saw that putz again). At current, their routine is basically this:

 

[notionphil]

They need both, it's not an either/or position - tools are just as meaningless if they don't have the sense to use them effectively.

 

Commanders are a good example of such. I've had them teleport me into cover, behind their guys just as often as they teleport me into a potentially difficult position (to say nothing of the one that decided to switch places while I was a good 50 feet above solid ground, I never saw that putz again). At current, their routine is basically this:

 

 

I agree with your overall point, and will go correct a sentence in my prior post. "Enemies need better tools to combat/resist our incredible power, not JUST better sense."

 

I'll tell you why I'm debating this seemingly nit-picky point.

 

AI is a complex concept with many meanings/layers (you already know this but bare with me).

 

On the extreme end, players are mentioning pattern recognition/learning like the example above where someone repeatedly used the glaive and expected the enemies to literally learn from that - I'm sure you realize the complexity of not just having them recognize allied deaths (easy part), but then somehow take precaution to not die in the same manner? Even if they did 'realize and react' to the threat - what would be their reaction, taking cover? Cool but futile, no challenge added.

 

Others suggest enemy pincer/deathsquad formations, which, albeit cool, will simply result in them dying in neat rows on the floor. Can the devs build these? Sure, these are obviously not impossible to build. However they are beyond the necessary set of enemy "sense" solutions and honestly will not add any challenge to the game.

 

Now - on the other end of "AI", we have a grineer shield lancer who stands still to block when there is another enemy he can cover, and approaches to charge slam you when there's not. That is a simple verisimilitude of intelligence which works perfectly for a videogame - a logical, tiny routine tied to a units "tool".

 

"Ground Slam when Tenno is within 5M". Perfect - there is no way to use that routine incorrectly. It's 100% "intelligent".

 

If you give enemies complicated tools, like a switch teleport, you are thinking too hard. Where is the ideal place to teleport a Tenno? Behind an obstacle, which is essentially into cover? In to other enemies he'll insta-kill? He's dangerous anywhere.

 

At this point in time we need to give enemies too-simple-to-fail-tools combined with easy routines that are soft and hard counters to Tenno's overwhelming strength.

 

Example enemies with tools that are too-simple-to-fail:

 

-Corpus Protoshield unit - Equipped with penta with large reload delay, invincible shield only turns off when knocked down (explosion, tons of bullets, or melee)

     effect: forces player into cover, then timed to approach via melee

 

-Infested Maligant: Ranged unit, shoots viral spines. When killed, regenerates to full health 10 seconds later if not ground finished.

     effect: multi-priority target, breaks up flow of combat

 

-Corpus Redactor: Cloaked, long ranged sniper that is visible only for 1 second before(red laser scope), and 5 seconds after taking a shot, in which he runs away from Tenno, and his last position. Takes only one shot every 30/45 sec. Will not shoot at tenno from less than 20M.

     effect: disrupt and disorients flow of combat, persists throughout level until killed

 

-Grineer Voidthirster: Twisted grineer heavy female unit with dual marelok. Will teleport up to 15M away from Tenno when he comes within 10M (once per 10 sec). Shielded (purple orokin energy shield). Absorbs all powers that would hit her - each power she's hit with doubles her shield capacity and instantly regenerates it.

 

This is what i mean by tools. Yes, they will need the sense to use those specific tools, but the tools themselves have to be designed simply. They don't need to be "intelligent".

Edited March 25, 2014 by notionphil

[Mokkania]

I just want to point out that people should be careful when they ask for better AI. For exemple supposedly that the AI get enhanced thus a group of only 3 mobs ask you to put up a strategy, then what are you supposed to do when you"re defending a big hall with 3 doors and 10 enemies coming from each door ? Well I'm simplifying it but even while wanting something harder it needs to be somewhat realistic/balanced( tough,on that earlier point it was just a matter of changing the enemies swarm mechanics but that is something the developers think for what kind of enemies they wanted to put).

 

 

On another thing I think the idea of elite platoon interesting.

Also, tough it's not directly related, I'm quite interested in the Stalker and G3' AI if only they were not one shoting or dead, but from what I read the stalker is kind of dumb, and I didn't see enough of them for now but the way the G3 work out is kind of impressive IMO for what i saw.

[(PSN)ariaandkia]

I agree with your overall point, and will go correct a sentence in my prior post. "Enemies need better tools to combat/resist our incredible power, not JUST better sense."

 

I'll tell you why I'm debating this seemingly nit-picky point.

 

AI is a complex concept with many meanings/layers (you already know this but bare with me).

 

On the extreme end, players are mentioning pattern recognition/learning like the example above where someone repeatedly used the glaive and expected the enemies to literally learn from that - I'm sure you realize the complexity of not just having them recognize allied deaths (easy part), but then somehow take precaution to not die in the same manner? Even if they did 'realize and react' to the threat - what would be their reaction, taking cover? Cool but futile, no challenge added.

 

Others suggest enemy pincer/deathsquad formations, which, albeit cool, will simply result in them dying in neat rows on the floor. Can the devs build these? Sure, these are obviously not impossible to build. However they are beyond the necessary set of enemy "sense" solutions and honestly will not add any challenge to the game.

 

Now - on the other end of "AI", we have a grineer shield lancer who stands still to block when there is another enemy he can cover, and approaches to charge slam you when there's not. That is a simple verisimilitude of intelligence which works perfectly for a videogame - a logical, tiny routine tied to a units "tool".

 

"Ground Slam when Tenno is within 5M". Perfect - there is no way to use that routine incorrectly. It's 100% "intelligent".

 

If you give enemies complicated tools, like a switch teleport, you are thinking too hard. Where is the ideal place to teleport a Tenno? Behind an obstacle, which is essentially into cover? In to other enemies he'll insta-kill? He's dangerous anywhere.

 

At this point in time we need to give enemies too-simple-to-fail-tools combined with easy routines that are soft and hard counters to Tenno's overwhelming strength.

 

Example enemies with tools that are too-simple-to-fail:

 

-Corpus Protoshield unit - Equipped with penta with large reload delay, invincible shield only turns off when knocked down (explosion, tons of bullets, or melee)

     effect: forces player into cover, then timed to approach via melee

 

-Infested Maligant: Ranged unit, shoots viral spines. When killed, regenerates to full health 10 seconds later if not ground finished.

     effect: multi-priority target, breaks up flow of combat

 

-Corpus Redactor: Cloaked, long ranged sniper that is visible only for 1 second before(red laser scope), and 5 seconds after taking a shot, in which he runs away from Tenno, and his last position. Takes only one shot every 30/45 sec. Will not shoot at tenno from less than 20M.

     effect: disrupt and disorients flow of combat, persists throughout level until killed

 

-Grineer Voidthirster: Twisted grineer heavy female unit with dual marelok. Will teleport up to 15M away from Tenno when he comes within 10M (once per 10 sec). Shielded (purple orokin energy shield). Absorbs all powers that would hit her - each power she's hit with doubles her shield capacity and instantly regenerates it.

 

This is what i mean by tools. Yes, they will need the sense to use those specific tools, but the tools themselves have to be designed simply. They don't need to be "intelligent".

 

Well, what I meant with the glaive example was that if I'm killing MULTIPLE of them with one attack, you'd think that they'd scatter a little instead of bunching up.  Not something super complicated just: One attack killing multiple enemies = bunch up less.

 

The ground slam isn't perfect.  Loki users often use decoy to force a ground slam at a bad moment so that instead of hitting the four tenno charging in, it hits just the decoy and right after, you have four tenno attacking and flanking the heavy unit.   Nyx use chaos all the time to force the enemy to hit their allies instead of Tenno and so on.  Now, the Nyx part makes perfect sense.  But what of the Loki user case?  There are 4 tenno heading towards the heavy and are now within 10 m of the heavy.  Loki throws a decoy, which arguably would confuse an enemy, but there is still 4 tenno heading towards the heavy.  Realistically, the heavy should wait a moment and then pound in order to hit all five targets instead of just one or even take a step towards the tenno group before pounding.  

 

But, as stated, that is a bit more complicated.

 

And I can totally think of ways those could fail, but in general, they wouldn't unless you specifically tried to make it fail (which you could consider a technique/counter).

 

And for the switch teleport, there is now really great places to teleport a tenno to.

 

Right next to a magnetic leader.  Right next to a fireburst leader.  Right next to a tankish unit.  Right as the tenno is about to fire their penta/ogris/etc.  Or, if the tenno is firing it at the teleporter, right after.

 

But it would be quite the complex AI to make that really work.

 

 

For games, simple AIs work just fine as long as they can consider in enough possibilities.  (Like in many games with grenades, the enemy will space themselves out a little whenever they get an opportunity in order to prevent massive grenade casualties).

[notionphil]

Well, what I meant with the glaive example was that if I'm killing MULTIPLE of them with one attack, you'd think that they'd scatter a little instead of bunching up.  Not something super complicated just: One attack killing multiple enemies = bunch up less.

 

The ground slam isn't perfect.  Loki users often use decoy to force a ground slam at a bad moment so that instead of hitting the four tenno charging in, it hits just the decoy and right after, you have four tenno attacking and flanking the heavy unit.   Nyx use chaos all the time to force the enemy to hit their allies instead of Tenno and so on.  Now, the Nyx part makes perfect sense.  But what of the Loki user case?  There are 4 tenno heading towards the heavy and are now within 10 m of the heavy.  Loki throws a decoy, which arguably would confuse an enemy, but there is still 4 tenno heading towards the heavy.  Realistically, the heavy should wait a moment and then pound in order to hit all five targets instead of just one or even take a step towards the tenno group before pounding.  

 

But, as stated, that is a bit more complicated.

 

And I can totally think of ways those could fail, but in general, they wouldn't unless you specifically tried to make it fail (which you could consider a technique/counter).

 

And for the switch teleport, there is now really great places to teleport a tenno to.

 

Right next to a magnetic leader.  Right next to a fireburst leader.  Right next to a tankish unit.  Right as the tenno is about to fire their penta/ogris/etc.  Or, if the tenno is firing it at the teleporter, right after.

 

But it would be quite the complex AI to make that really work.

 

 

For games, simple AIs work just fine as long as they can consider in enough possibilities.  (Like in many games with grenades, the enemy will space themselves out a little whenever they get an opportunity in order to prevent massive grenade casualties).

 

The examples you are giving simply illustrate of simple and effective of a tool the groundslam is. Effective does not mean can't be overcome - of course it should be able to be overcome, this is a game! The enemy behavior is predictable and effective enough that you are making counters to it.

 

Simple AI additions are fine. Sure, make corpus run away if you cut someones head off next to them. Then they'll take cover, for you to slaughter them a second later. Nothing new.

 

Scatter from a 'grenade', sure.. But remember, Tenno don't have grenades - we have room clearing bombs. So all the scattering in the world doesn't matter.

 

I'm not opposed to beefing up trash troop AI - I'm just saying it won't matter as far as adding enemy tools that are easy to use.

 

It will just be another 'kinda cool' thing like giving Rescue hostages a weapon. A tiny bandaid that we barely notice. Give the enemy simple to use tools, and we'll notice that.

Edited March 25, 2014 by notionphil

[(PSN)ariaandkia]

The examples you are giving simply illustrate of simple and effective of a tool the groundslam is. Effective does not mean can't be overcome - of course it should be able to be overcome, this is a game! The enemy behavior is predictable and effective enough that you are making counters to it.

 

Simple AI additions are fine. Sure, make corpus run away if you cut someones head off next to them. Then they'll take cover, for you to slaughter them a second later. Nothing new.

 

Scatter from a 'grenade', sure.. But remember, Tenno don't have grenades - we have room clearing bombs. So all the scattering in the world doesn't matter.

 

I'm not opposed to beefing up trash troop AI - I'm just saying it won't matter as far as adding enemy tools that are easy to use.

 

It will just be another 'kinda cool' thing like giving Rescue hostages a weapon. A tiny bandaid that we barely notice. Give the enemy simple to use tools, and we'll notice that.

 

Maybe I wasn't being really clear.

 

My point is more that if the AI was improved enough, instead of making the enemies have more tools, the AI could make up for being a little weaker by having smarter actions.

 

This is mainly important for enemies like Stalker, G3, etc.   Where right now the only way for them to be challenging is to make them extremely powerful, with a better AI, you could scale down on the difficulty and instead make the difficult part the AI.

 

This would also allow for some overall beefing up of enemies.  Yes, trash mobs are trash mobs, but should we be one shotting trash mobs that are of the same level or higher?  When I'm one shotting level 50 enemies, that means my weapons really are a little too powerful.  However, what if my weapons were weaker and the ai was smarter (essentially beefing up higher level enemies without numerically beefing up the weaker enemies)?   Now, there is less of a gap between a rank 1 and a rank 30 tenno (since if my rank 30 weapons aren't leagues above a rank 1 tenno's gear, a rank 1 tenno could do just as well as a rank 30) and the hard part of the enemy would be the actual fighting them rather than trying to see how much damage I could do to them.

 

This would allow for toning down of tenno powers and enemy powers.

 

Alternatively, it would allow for special tools designed to counter a tenno's powers.  Like the stalker.

 

Essentially, it would allow for a complete rebalance of the game if the AI was significantly improved.