Here Is An Idea For Balance

[(PSN)ariaandkia]

(Don't scream at me yet please, my artificial heart is programmed to be fragile).

 

Many of us (from now on in this post, I'll say we/us) have talked about several subjects that are somewhat related:

 

We've talked about end game content 

We've talked about game balance

We've talked about making the scaling more appropriate

We've talked about making it easier to use formas.

We've talked about fixing minibosses.

 

 

So here is an idea:

 

A GLOBAL Nerf of higher end stuff.  Global as in affects both allies and enemies.

 

Think of it this way:  1000/10=100.  100/1=100.

 

 

 

Example numbers:

Take this scenario.

Rank 1 tenno does 200 damage to a small room (10 enemies).

Rank 30 tenno does 2000 damage to a large room (50 enemies).

 

Rank 1 enemy has 300 HP and 5% damage reduction

Rank 30 enemy has 5000 HP and 50% damage reduction.

 

Rank 1 enemy will die in 2 hits from the rank 1 and 1 from the rank 30.

Rank 30 enemy will die in 50 hits from the rank 1 and 5 from the Rank 30.

 

Now, both sides get nerfed (so to speak) when it comes to the higher level enemies.

 

Rank 1 tenno does 200 damage to a small room.

Rank 30 tenno does 500 damage to a large room.

 

Rank 1 enemy has 300 HP and 5% damage reduction.

Rank 30 enemy has 1750 HP and 25% damage reduction.

 

Rank 1 enemy will die in 2 hits from the rank 1 and 1 from the rank 30.

Rank 30 enemy will die in 12 hits from the rank 1 and 5 hits from the rank 30.

 

Essentially, there was no change for the rank 30 tenno, but for the rank 1 tenno, there is a huge difference.

 

The idea would be to systematically nerf EVERYTHING from enemies to powers to status effects to mods.  (There may be a few buffs here and there, but the general thing would be to nerf).

 

In essence, the only thing that would change would be that there would be less of a power gap between rank 0s and rank 30s and the game would have more of a balanced feel due to that various things.  That and you'd see fewer high number damages.

 

This would make weaker enemies slightly more powerful and weaker tenno slightly more powerful as a result, but against a high power tenno, there really would be no significant difference.

 

"But I worked hard to be leagues stronger than other tenno!"

 

Well, that is great, but that mindset will only limit progress as it will limit what can be done to add in new challenges without the challenges being flat out cheap.  (Think of when the stalker got 'buffed' and people were complaining about it being too hard, then get nerfed and people said too easy).

 

By doing a global nerf, it would allow for more flexibility for adjustments.

 

This would also actually be a huge buff for Tenno in "end game" situations and a debuff in "early game" situations.

 

The only issue obviously is that this would be a major rebalance where almost everything needs to be changed and in order to really be able to tell how effective it is, the changes would have to hit by themselves (not as part of another patch but as a patch by itself) and would need to be all at once.  However, if done right, players should see no significant change in gameplay when fighting appropriate level enemies.  

 

===

 

Now, how will this improve balance?  By leveling the playing field, you now have more room to rebalance the gear (hence why I mentioned the scattered buffs that might occur).  If serration, as an example, now only did +5% damage per rank for a total of 75% bonus damage, but in exchange, the enemies had about 2/3 of the health and less armor, there would be no real difference between how it is now and how it would be with such a global nerf.

 

(175 is about 66% of 265).

 

Now, you can have smaller stat boosts that do much more.  Meaning that the level 0 player playing with you only has a weak weapon would still struggle against a level 45 stalkers.  However, the struggle would be closer to fighting a level 25 stalker now.   On the other hand, the level 30 player would still be able to struggle against the level 45 stalker though it would only feel like a level 35 or 40 stalker to the level 30 player.

 

This is a special type of balance that pushes end game content and new game content slightly closer together.

 

 

And if you managed to read all of that, you now have every right to yell at me and scream hateful things at me (assuming allowed on the forum rules).

[BrotherIcarus]

But when you change everything you change nothing.

[Volt_Cruelerz]

I like this, but I'm not sure if it's the reason the OP does. Narrowing the gap makes skill and teamwork more important in comparison which I naturally support.

[Llyssa]

But when you change everything you change nothing.

Yes and no. That's kind of his point.

 

He's basically asking for all progressions to be scaled down, so that baseline(new player) is more effective against higher grade things.

 

The difference isn't as dramatic is stated, but the point would be to make it less dramatic.

 

The pro side is making it easier for new players to handle high level content.

 

The con side is making players feel like their progression is much less meaningful.

 

Also, technically on the con side, there's a great deal of people who LIKE BIG NUMBERS, and have actually pushed DE to make more BIG NUMBERS that are actually weaker than the smaller numbers we had. We're actually weaker now than we used to be, but we have BIG NUMBERS so these people are happier for it. o.0

[LukeAura]

And if you managed to read all of that, you now have every right to yell at me and scream hateful things at me (assuming allowed on the forum rules).

Well if you insist.

You're awful at being unintelligent. how dare you make intellectual ideas that make sense. Stop proposing ideas that will help general diversity by reducing the sheer amount of damage we need.

*ahem*

I like the idea. Flattening scaling out a little would help keep the sense of progression without totally invalidating lower level players after just a few levels. I also like how this helps soften the impact of the early game modding, which right now is a large issue due to the lack of damage mods and the difficulty of which it is for newer players to rank up mods from lacking resources

Edited March 25, 2014 by LukeAura

[notionphil]

I think flattening of the curve is a good idea.

 

This would also actually be a huge buff for Tenno in "end game" situations and a debuff in "early game" situations.

 

 

Except that part, which I'm not sure is really related to flattening a curve. Is this backwards?

[(PSN)ariaandkia]

I think flattening of the curve is a good idea.

 

 

Except that part, which I'm not sure is really related to flattening a curve. Is this backwards?

 

It would be more of a side effect.  And I meant for high rank tenno specifically, sorry if I wasn't clear.  Like a rank 30 would have harder time against level 1 enemies but an easier time against level 90 enemies.

 

Well if you insist.

You're awful at being unintelligent. how dare you make intellectual ideas that make sense. Stop proposing ideas that will help general diversity by reducing the sheer amount of damage we need.

*ahem*

I like the idea. Flattening scaling out a little would help keep the sense of progression without totally invalidating lower level players after just a few levels. I also like how this helps soften the impact of the early game modding, which right now is a large issue due to the lack of damage mods and the difficulty of which it is for newer players to rank up mods from lacking resources

Lol.

[Taihus]

This would also make customizing damage types a lot more meaningful, since you don't have to focus so much on just trying to boost pure damage with serration.

[notionphil]

Like a rank 30 would have harder time against level 1 enemies but an easier time against level 90 enemies.

 

Understood. But why would we want to have an easier time against enemies at endgame than we already do?

[liavalenth]

Understood. But why would we want to have an easier time against enemies at endgame than we already do?

Mostly because dying in low level areas often, such as Mercury, can be damaging on peoples ego.

 

I am not sure I like the idea, as that I do like being able to go to low level areas and win at everything! However, I would not be completely against it as that it would probably be good for the game, overall.

[(PSN)ariaandkia]

Understood. But why would we want to have an easier time against enemies at endgame than we already do?

Easier would be purely numerical ease.  In other words, it would take fewer bullets to kill the enemy.

 

HOWEVER, as I stated, this allows for more tweaking and makes it so that smaller changes have a larger effect.

 

And that is only for the initial "nerf" patch to show players that there is no significant change from the "nerf"  (Since people would otherwise get angry).  After the "nerf" they could then add tweaks to make the "end game" more difficult.

 

This could be things like more shield-lancer type enemies, improved enemy AI, etc.  Essentially, you'd be making it so that the "numbers" aren't the important thing but rather the strategy.

 

Instead of a "whoever hits first wins" duel with the stalker, it could turn into a prolonged battle based on strategy, skill, teamwork, etc.  as an example.

 

And trust me, I know that a lot of the higher end players, myself included, would not like this idea because suddenly their 100k uber crit only hits for 30k or w/e.  The low level enemies would do what would be effectively 0.15% of their health in damage to them instead of their old 0.1% of health in damage which could totally kill them  (I'm not completely joking though I am being slightly absurd with the numbers here).  But it would really help the game on an overall level.

Edited March 25, 2014 by (PS4)ariaandkia

[notionphil]

Easier would be purely numerical ease.  In other words, it would take fewer bullets to kill the enemy.

 

HOWEVER, as I stated, this allows for more tweaking and makes it so that smaller changes have a larger effect.

 

And that is only for the initial "nerf" patch to show players that there is no significant change from the "nerf"  (Since people would otherwise get angry).  After the "nerf" they could then add tweaks to make the "end game" more difficult.

 

This could be things like more shield-lancer type enemies, improved enemy AI, etc.  Essentially, you'd be making it so that the "numbers" aren't the important thing but rather the strategy.

 

Instead of a "whoever hits first wins" duel with the stalker, it could turn into a prolonged battle based on strategy, skill, teamwork, etc.  as an example.

 

Everything except your first sentence sounds very appealing to me.

 

It seems one of us (possibly me) is confused about the proposition. I don't see at all how making endgame enemies die with less bullets is a factor that will make a battle more prolonged/strategic. If you're compressing the power curve, you could just as easily keep the endgame ratio the same, and scale up the early-game ratio.

 

EX:

 

now (steep curve, punitive to new players)

lv 1 tenno deals 100 DPS

lv 30 tenno deals 10,000 DPS

 

lv 1 mob has 500 HP

lv 30 mob has 10,000 HP

 

alternate version of your proposal (flattened curve without making endgame easier:)

lv 1 tenno deals 5,000 DPS

level 30 tenno deals 10,000 DPS

 

lv 1 mob has 5,000 HP

lv 30 mob has 10,000 HP

 

I'm not suggesting this is how I'd like it, but I'm just illustrating you can flatten the power curve, and keep endgame scaling the same. I'd probably scale it more like:

 

phil's flame-bait curve (flattened curve with increasing difficulty:)

lv 1 tenno deals 5,000 DPS

level 30 tenno deals 10,000 DPS

 

lv 1 mob has 2,500 HP

lv 30 mob has 20,000 HP

Edited March 25, 2014 by notionphil

[Davoodoo]

I really doubt that it will make anything different, this idea would require them to change scaling, if they lower scaling then veteran players will be able to clear even higher lvls easily.

Also in your example 12 hits from lets say braton - 8.8 rof no multishot no procs is still at least 10 times slower than 5 hits from veteran soma or boltor.

Also limited power use, much worse survi and less options to choose.

 

That alone doesnt fix anything.

Tune down mods, adjust scaling, adjust weapon base strength, rework energy.

 

At current state of game my biggest issue is that even against high lvl enemies we are still being able to kill them too fast, sure nemies do it faster than us, but they lack aoe cc, defensive powers and all that stuff. But hey they are 3 times higher lvl than us, we should stand a chance against them yet we still beat them easily.

Also heavy unit is heavy for a reason, it should be heavily armored shock troop not slightly buffed grunt with bigger caliber gun.

At lower lvls they arent much harder to kill than grunt but they scale more aggresively so at around lvl100 they have considerable increase in survivability compared to lancers.

Edited March 25, 2014 by Davoodoo

[Cwierz]

+support for concept.

This needs ironing out.

[(PSN)ariaandkia]

Everything except your first sentence sounds very appealing to me.

 

It seems one of us (possibly me) is confused about the proposition. I don't see at all how making endgame enemies die with less bullets is a factor that will make a battle more prolonged/strategic. If you're compressing the power curve, you could just as easily keep the endgame ratio the same, and scale up the early-game ratio.

 

EX:

 

now (steep curve, punitive to new players)

lv 1 tenno deals 100 DPS

lv 30 tenno deals 10,000 DPS

 

lv 1 mob has 500 HP

lv 30 mob has 10,000 HP

 

alternate version of your proposal (flattened curve without making endgame easier:)

lv 1 tenno deals 5,000 DPS

level 30 tenno deals 10,000 DPS

 

lv 1 mob has 5,000 HP

lv 30 mob has 10,000 HP

 

I'm not suggesting this is how I'd like it, but I'm just illustrating you can flatten the power curve, and keep endgame scaling the same. I'd probably scale it more like:

 

phil's flame-bait curve (flattened curve with increasing difficulty:)

lv 1 tenno deals 5,000 DPS

level 30 tenno deals 10,000 DPS

 

lv 1 mob has 2,500 HP

lv 30 mob has 20,000 HP

 

That would in essence be doing the same thing except you'd need higher numbers instead of lower numbers.

 

Think of it as this:  I'm doing: 1000/10=100 -> 100/1=100.  You are doing 1000/10=100 -> 10000/100=100.

 

===

 

Now, my way will make early game harder on the tenno (it would take fewer bullets to kill the tenno early game).

 

Now, here is where making endgame die with fewer bullets starts coming into play.  Note, with my method, the tenno would also take more bullets from higher level enemies to kill (though in essence, the tenno would still die fairly quickly as you might've noticed with my numerical example earlier).

 

Now, how can this factor in to strategy?

 

Now, we can have more diverse enemies.  Some enemies might really specialize against say shields.  Another enemy might be really specialized against health.

 

Suddenly, bleed wouldn't seem as bad since the numbers would be lower.  It would feel less like a cheap shot.  That is an important things here: making those really dangerous effects not feel cheap but to make them FEEL like a valid strategy.

 

You could have leech type enemies that steal health from the tenno.  While before stealing 100 health from the tenno would be like nothing (imagine a 100000 health enemy caring about 100 health, ha! Now 100 health on a 2000 health enemy?  Oh dear!).

 

You could have enemies that scale more in armor and less in damage or enemies that scale more in damage and less in armor and these changes would feel very substantial!  1000+100 vs 500+100?

 

We could also have ammo draining enemies.  Now that you don't need hundreds of bullets to kill one enemy, it would be perfectly valid to have an enemy that depletes your ammo supplies.   Suddenly you have a priority as a firearm user to get rid of an enemy that is dropping your ability to damage.

 

====

 

As far as not "fixing" anything.  As I said, it would compress the scaling.

 

This fixes the power gap between a new player and a max ranked player.  This fixes the issue of forma'ing new gear.  This fixes the issues of enemy minibosses wiping out parties without a chance due to scaling.

 

(a level 20 stalker vs a party of rank 5s vs a level 45 stalker vs a party of rank 30s, the rank 30s obviously have the battle much easier at this point.  By altering the scaling, the 20 vs 5s would still be difficult, but much more manageable.)

 

This would be a tune down of mods and in a sense a scaling adjustment and a base weapon strength adjustment all in one.

 

===

 

Yeah, it definitely needs ironing out.  This is more of just a concept right now.  More of a "This could be done, here is my idea of how to do it" rather than a "This is exactly how it should be done."

Edited March 25, 2014 by (PS4)ariaandkia

[Llyssa]

This seems relevant: https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/200407-achievement-rewards/

[Volt_Cruelerz]

*grumbles quietly due to lack of time to give numbers proper thought*

[DocHolliday13]

Well, here's what it would take.

 

Scaling enemies shouldn't be too hard, they've done that before.

 

Scaling Tenno though, there's the tricky part. Because the curve is all in the form of mods. Weapons don't inherently get better as they rank up. A rank 30 potatoed 8-polarity Soma with no mods equipped works exactly like a rank 0 Soma with no mods equipped. Frames get small increases in HP, Shield, and Energy, but nothing gamebreaking. So how do you scale the mods? And which mods do you scale? There's the tricky part. Obviously you have to change Serration, for example. Instead of doing 15% damage per rank, you could have it do 5%.. or 3%... or something else. You'd scale the elemental mods exactly the same way. Crit chance you wouldn't touch at all. But would you mess with multishot? How about attack speed? Because if you change some mods like these, you do more than just change the curve/scale, you change how the game plays. But if you don't change them, maybe the curve is still too much.

 

But yeah, I'm onboard with this. I think scaling down the difference from 0 to MR15 would be a great design choice. And I'd start by just drastically nerfing obvious mods like Serration, Hornet Strike, Vitality, Intensify, etc.

Edited March 25, 2014 by DocHolliday13

[(PSN)ariaandkia]

Well, here's what it would take.

 

Scaling enemies shouldn't be too hard, they've done that before.

 

Scaling Tenno though, there's the tricky part. Because the curve is all in the form of mods. Weapons don't inherently get better as they rank up. A rank 30 potatoed 8-polarity Soma with no mods equipped works exactly like a rank 0 Soma with no mods equipped. Frames get small increases in HP, Shield, and Energy, but nothing gamebreaking. So how do you scale the mods? And which mods do you scale? There's the tricky part. Obviously you have to change Serration, for example. Instead of doing 15% damage per rank, you could have it do 5%.. or 3%... or something else. You'd scale the elemental mods exactly the same way. Crit chance you wouldn't touch at all. But would you mess with multishot? How about attack speed? Because if you change some mods like these, you do more than just change the curve/scale, you change how the game plays. But if you don't change them, maybe the curve is still too much.

 

But yeah, I'm onboard with this. I think scaling down the difference from 0 to MR15 would be a great design choice. And I'd start by just drastically nerfing obvious mods like Serration, Hornet Strike, Vitality, Intensify, etc.

Yeah, the tricky part is definitely trying to scale the mods properly.  It would be a LOT of work, I won't lie.   However, you'd end up with a game that is much more flexible and a lot more friendly to newer players while making it very easy to make things harder for the more experienced, higher power players.

[DocHolliday13]

Yeah, the tricky part is definitely trying to scale the mods properly.  It would be a LOT of work, I won't lie.   However, you'd end up with a game that is much more flexible and a lot more friendly to newer players while making it very easy to make things harder for the more experienced, higher power players.

 

Agreed. From what I've been seeing on the forums, the new player experience is pretty horrible right now, and probably way worse than it was when I joined up, during U8 I think it was.

 

After giving it some thought, I initially thought you could possibly achieve most of what you need to scale simply by nerfing straight damage mods for weapons (like Serration) and shield/hp/damage mods for frames, but after playing with some numbers on a website, that's not nearly enough.

 

You'd have to hit any damage increase mods hard, like taking Serration from 15% damage per rank to 2%, and the same for all elemental damage mods. I think you may have to remove multishot mods from the game completely (or fundamentally change multishot to something else), but that's mostly ok because you wouldn't really notice anything besides less damage. Just scaling multishot down though, would change how the game plays because it's a percentage chance of double (or triple, in the case of secondary) damage and not a flat damage increase, which is why I think you'd want to remove them instead of just nerf them. Crit damage increase (but not crit chance) would have to be hit hard too. I think fire rate mods and reload mods would be OK as-is.

 

Making these changes on the Soma, for example, leaves it with roughly 5x the DPS of an un-modded Soma, which, if you think about it, is still a pretty big increase. Certainly big enough that you'd notice the difference between 0 mods and fully modded.

 

Edit: Actually after playing with the numbers a bit more, I think multishot mods would be OK as long as they didn't exceed 120%, leaving just Lethal Torrent to be changed somehow. That would leave weapons doing roughly 7-8x more dps when fully modded, which I think wouldn't be too bad.

Edited March 26, 2014 by DocHolliday13

[(PSN)ariaandkia]

Yeah, the main idea behind this was to try to make it so that new players and freshly forma'ed players could keep up in at least the starmap as long as they had enough skill.

 

In other words, turn warframe into a more tactical game rather than a numerical game.  Obviously higher numbers would still make things easier but higher skill would work just fine if needed.

 

By reducing the bullets needed, you would make even "low end" weapons viable in decently high areas.