Excalibur's Melee?

[Riasiru]

Ok, so... A thought occurred to me. Is Slash Dash considered to be melee? The flavor text is even as follows.

 

"Excalibur dashes forward,

slashing any who get in his

way."

 

So, we've established that while he's lunging forward that he's using his melee weapon to strike the enemies. Correct? I figured I'd test something to see if it was considered melee only to be disappointed when it wasn't. Why doesn't the game consider this to be melee? I know it's a power, but why is it that Valkyr's hysteria counts as melee yet Slash Dash does not?

 

I'm proposing a buff to Slash Dash. Make it and Radial Javelin count as melee attacks. (Glaive is a melee weapon you throw. Javelin is a melee weapon you throw... Also, those are Skana he's hurling, clearly melee.) This does something very important for Excalibur and buffs both skills so that they can be useful in higher level game play.

 

Radial Blind buffs their damage if they're melee.

 

Slash Dash and Radial Javelin have needed a buff for the longest time, anyway. This seems like an effective way of doing it! Also, with melee 2.0 coming out sooner or later, it seems like a great time to do this... In fact, you should probably go through all of the powers in the game and see which ones should be counted as melee attacks! Shuriken on Ash seems like it'd be qualified for the same reason as Glaive. On that note, what about thrown sidearms? Kunai and Hikou? Ok, maybe that would be taking it too far... Radial Blind + Kunai doing stealth damage = Waaaaaaay to OP.

 

Seriously, though. Consider giving some of the powers in the game the melee flag so that they can perform stealth attacks. I'm listing the proposed changes below so that as the idea is thought out further people can see what is currently being talked about at a glance.

 

Slash Dash

• Flag as melee so that it is affected by Radial Blind's damage buff.

 

Radial Blind

• No changes.

 

Super Jump

• No changes.

 

Radial Javelin

• Flag as melee for the same reason as Slash Dash.

• Use power duration to determine number of javelins instead of power strength. (Nerf specifically aimed to prevent Power Efficiency spam.)

 

Notable Mentions

r0ckwolf; suggested making Slash Dash adopt strengths from your equipped weapon.

Godhands; suggested something similar to r0ckwolf but brought up the topic of altering slash dash based on the type of melee weapon being used.

 

PS. In retrospect, Slash Dash not being melee seems like a bug...  Or a blatant oversight when you tried to implement stealth mechanics.

 

PSS. The reason I listed things in notable mentions rather than adding them to the list of changes is because, while worth mentioning, I felt they cluttered the original idea and could make implementation of what could be a simple yet effective buff complicated and difficult. 

 

PSSS. Please don't mention that abilities are not melee because "game mechanics." This has been mentioned, it has been addressed, and DE can change mechanics. They do it all the time. Just look at stamina. They overhauled that game mechanic at one point only to revert it quite quick. Then there were the broken lamps. So yeah... Sweeping changes! This? This is nothing compared to adding entirely new content. 

Edited March 27, 2014 by Riasiru

[kaboomonme]

This doesn't seem too difficult to implement. How is it not already done by now? 

+ 1 for simple yet effective idea.

[RahuHordika]

I suggested a while ago that Excal should get the Valkyr treatment for his Slash Dash at the very least.

Naturally got buried under the tons of threads about other issues that have been mentions a billion times before (by the most part).

SD and maybe, juuust maaaaybe RJ should get affected by your melee. I disagree with Blind though, it's perfectly fine as it it now as does it's job just fine. Nice CC, doesn't need any form of buff to damage.

Edited March 26, 2014 by RahuStalker

[Riasiru]

I disagree with Blind though, it's perfectly fine as it it now and does it's job just fone. Nice CC, doesn't need any form of buff to damage.

RahuStalker, Radial Blind already grants a 400% damage buff to melee attacks against any afflicted enemy. It would not be changed nor am I suggesting any change to it at all. I agree that it is good as is and doesn't need to be changed. I'm only proposing that his other skills play off of it and allow him a form of power comboing to increase the effectiveness of his powers as a whole.

 

Radial Blind; 50 power.

Super Jump; 10 power.

Radial Javelin; 100 power.

Seeing it all come together; priceless. 

[r0ckwolf]

I was thinking about this too lately, with Melee Overhaul coming up a Slash Dash Buff seems appropiate.

 

Here is what i had in Mind:

 

Slash Dash should do 150/225/400/500 + 25/50/75/100% damage of your Melee Weapon as Slash Damage, with a 100% chance to inflict a Bleed Proc on all levels.

Note*: The Base Physicall damage stats of your Weapon will be converted to Slash damage, elemental Attributes should be unaffected though and apply as they would with a normal strike.

 

It should also increase your Melee Hit-Counter.

 

This would return Slash Dash to it´s former Glory!!! XD

 

------------

 

Radial Javelin i´m not sure about, Armor Scaling still makes it kinnda underwhelming past lvl 30, but i have never seen it as a Melee Attack.

Maybe a straight out Buff and Punch Through Javelins would be a better Solution... just sayin´. 

 

Edit: Homing Javelins would probably the best way to buff this Ability, they already kinnda steer towards a target,  if this would be increased soo that if you are fighting a single or only a handfull of enemys each one would be hit with multiple Javelins the Skill would start to shine again.

It is kinnda dumb that when 3 enemys attack from different 3 directions, the use of Javelin misses 90% of the Javelins fired.

 

Note*: I´m not saying that all Javelins should home in on a Target no matter the circumstances, just the steering should be increased by a noteable amount so that if a target is standing in front of you, all javelins fired in it´s direction steer towards him, so that 4-5 might hit him, instead of only 1-2!

Edited March 26, 2014 by r0ckwolf

[RahuHordika]

Most certainly it'd be a good idea to make his ablitlies play off together.

Maybe, just maybe after melee 2.0 these abilities might get a revision but indeed Excal is balanced a point but as is the case with so many other frames most of his abilities end up falling short with levels.

Super Jump is an interesting subject though, as of not it's somewhat slow to perform as an alternate divebomb but I always though that it could get an effect that buffs the effectiveness of the jump attacks based on height. It wouldn't change what it is at it's core but would be a nice side effect in my opinon.

[Riasiru]

Super Jump is an interesting subject though, as of not it's somewhat slow to perform as an alternate divebomb but I always though that it could get an effect that buffs the effectiveness of the jump attacks based on height. It wouldn't change what it is at it's core but would be a nice side effect in my opinon.

Oh, you didn't know? Radial Javelin can not penetrate obstacles between it and the intended target. Enemies behind cover will be safe and sound. Super jump gives you a height advantage, allowing the javelins to safely sail right over the cover and strike the enemy. 

 

I'm not proposing any change to super jump, either. It already has interplay with radial javelin.

 

PS. You can super jump off walls in the current version of the game. While wall running (up or to the side.) hit 3 then release the jump button right after. You will jump MUCH farther. 

Edited March 26, 2014 by Riasiru

[ZayTM]

Actually a really cool idea, OP. I'd love to see Excal's dps abilities get some love, and this is a cool, simple, and flavorful way of doing it.

[Mcl_Blue]

I second this motion. I've always kinda seen Excalibur as "the sword guy", but as of late he's been more of "the meh guy", so... I think implementing these changes would go a long way to not only buff him but also make him more interesting to play as.

[AscendantWyvern]

I can dig the idea. It'll certainly let Excalibur stand out a bit.

[Riasiru]

You know, in retrospect... This might actually make Excalibur's Radial Javelin over powered. A x4 multiplier caused by radial blind (Again, it already does this to melee attacks.) would result in every javelin doing a massive 4k damage. That's 1333.3 Puncture, Penetration Impact, and Slash damage! It doesn't matter what the target is. Shields, armor, or flesh, it will rip them wide open...

 

That said, you need 150 power to use the combo and at rank 30 Excalibur has 150 power... Can we call this a super ult?..

 

Oh jeeze. Imagine this with Mag's bullet attractor on top of it? Jeeeeeeeeze. 15,000 x4 = 60,000 damage... 20k Puncture, penetration impact, and slash. Just... Jeeze... So much overkill... But at least it'd open up a lot of new power combinations... Actually, if they did make it melee like this, I think that Radial Javelin needs to be nerfed and I know just how to nerf it. Make it so that instead of using power strength to determine how many Javelins get thrown, use power duration instead.

Edited March 26, 2014 by Riasiru

[Stormandreas]

Neither of those powers use ANY of the melee mechanics, and thus they do not count towards melee skills. Sure they use melee weapons for show, and sure, perhaps, like  Hysteria, they could easily have the melee weapon affect the power, but you yourself are not attacking in melee, so neither of them should count as melee attacks.

[AscendantWyvern]

You know, in retrospect... This might actually make Excalibur's Radial Javelin over powered. A x4 multiplier caused by radial blind (Again, it already does this to melee attacks.) would result in every javelin doing a massive 4k damage. That's 1333.3 Puncture, Penetration, and Slash damage! It doesn't matter what the target is. Shields, armor, or flesh, it will rip them wide open...

 

That said, you need 150 power to use the combo and at rank 30 Excalibur has 150 power... Can we call this a super ult?..

 

Oh jeeze. Imagine this with Mag's bullet attractor on top of it? Jeeeeeeeeze. 15,000 x4 = 60,000 damage... 20k Puncture, penetration, and slash. Just... Jeeze... So much overkill... But at least it'd open up a lot of new power combinations... Actually, if they did make it melee like this, I think that Radial Javelin needs to be nerfed and I know just how to nerf it. Make it so that instead of using power strength to determine how many Javelins get thrown, use power duration instead.

A quick solution would be to make it so that the 4x multiplier is around melee attacks rather than melee damage. (I can see this unfortunately nerf the 4x multiplier RB has more often than it wouldn't. This is working off of DE's history of this stuff. In this manner, it will multiply base melee stats rather than the modded stats.)

 

But the true solution would never be that simple, nor should it be. (I could delve into it...but I have to disappear for a few hours, and I'm in a bit of a hurry :P)

[Zephyric_Reaper]

You know, in retrospect... This might actually make Excalibur's Radial Javelin over powered. A x4 multiplier caused by radial blind (Again, it already does this to melee attacks.) would result in every javelin doing a massive 4k damage. That's 1333.3 Puncture, Penetration, and Slash damage! It doesn't matter what the target is. Shields, armor, or flesh, it will rip them wide open...

 

That said, you need 150 power to use the combo and at rank 30 Excalibur has 150 power... Can we call this a super ult?..

 

Oh jeeze. Imagine this with Mag's bullet attractor on top of it? Jeeeeeeeeze. 15,000 x4 = 60,000 damage... 20k Puncture, penetration, and slash. Just... Jeeze... So much overkill... But at least it'd open up a lot of new power combinations... Actually, if they did make it melee like this, I think that Radial Javelin needs to be nerfed and I know just how to nerf it. Make it so that instead of using power strength to determine how many Javelins get thrown, use power duration instead.

 

To my understanding it's x2 on normal attacks and x4 on charged. 

He needs to combo the ultimate as well so no, I'd say not overpowered. Seeing as how other combos are more overpowered (or more like just mprime >_>) then this is certainly not. Also, RJ has a LOT of limitations, like LOS, can't penetrate anything, long cast time, ect. 

 

My +1 to this. 

I don't care if it's "no it isn't melee" or whatever excuse, it would be the perfect buff for excalibur from a balance point of view. 

[r0ckwolf]

Neither of those powers use ANY of the melee mechanics, and thus they do not count towards melee skills. Sure they use melee weapons for show, and sure, perhaps, like  Hysteria, they could easily have the melee weapon affect the power, but you yourself are not attacking in melee, so neither of them should count as melee attacks.

Your wrong about Slash Dash, but probably right about Javelin!

 

Slash Dash is by it´s description and animation a Melee Attack!!!

[Riasiru]

Neither of those powers use ANY of the melee mechanics, and thus they do not count towards melee skills. Sure they use melee weapons for show, and sure, perhaps, like  Hysteria, they could easily have the melee weapon affect the power, but you yourself are not attacking in melee, so neither of them should count as melee attacks.

This is a thread proposing a way to balance Excalibur. If you wish to argue semantics please do so else where. DE ultimately decides how the mechanics you are describing work and they decide when they are or are not valid. Furthermore, the entire basis of your argument stems from a sort of we can't do something tomorrow because it is still today approach. Yes, it is still today, but tomorrow it shall be tomorrow, and tomorrow is full of possibilities.

 

PS. Shooting down ideas without contributing any of your own is kind of lazy. If you have something that would make playing Excalibur a richer and more fulfilling experience than by all means put it out there. (Straight out buffing damage is not fulfilling. It's also lazy.)

[Zephyric_Reaper]

Also... Would that mean that steel charge would buff spell  ability damage? God damn.... 

[Riasiru]

Also... Would that mean that steel charge would buff spell  ability damage? God damn.... 

It wouldn't have to. Melee weapons are typically silent but that doesn't mean all silent weapons are melee. Just because a weapon is melee doesn't mean that all melee attacks have to be buffed by steel charge. I know for a fact that it currently doesn't buff the damage of charged attacks.

 

Slash Dash should do 150/225/400/500 + 25/50/75/100% damage of your Melee Weapon as Slash Damage, with a 100% chance to inflict a Bleed Proc on all levels.

Note*: The Base Physicall damage stats of your Weapon will be converted to Slash damage, elemental Attributes should be unaffected though and apply as they would with a normal strike.

 

I would like to see your equipped melee weapon change slash dash, but a 100% bleed proc would be terribly OP. Just look at the Eviserator... That stuff is messed up. Also, I don't think it should be pure slashing anyway. Slashing with it Jat Kitty Hamma? Seems silly. DE, why you so silly? You have a big freak out over swords being on fire and frozen yet I can deal slash damage with a hammer. That's just silly. 

 

Why not make it so that the highest base damage on your weapon changes Slash Dash's effect? I'd love to see impact weapons rag doll enemies and send them flying.

Edited March 26, 2014 by Riasiru

[Zephyric_Reaper]

 

It wouldn't have to. Melee weapons are typically silent but that doesn't mean all silent weapons are melee. Just because a weapon is melee doesn't mean that all melee attacks have to be buffed by steel charge. I know for a fact that it currently doesn't buff the damage of charged attacks.

 

 

I would like to see your equipped melee weapon change slash dash, but a 100% bleed proc would be terribly OP. Just look at the Eviserator... That stuff is messed up. Also, I don't think it should be pure slashing anyway. Slashing with it Jat Kitty Hamma? Seems silly. DE, why you so silly? You have a big freak out over swords being on fire and frozen yet I can deal slash damage with a hammer. That's just silly. 

 

Why not make it so that the highest base damage on your weapon changes Slash Dash's effect? I'd love to see impact weapons rag doll enemies and send them flying.

 

 

You just crushed my dreams.

Anyway, look at valkyr, giving her weapons bonus was just bad because the one with highest base dmg wins. What about fang prime? Glaive? meh... don't work so well. 

I think the starting idea is alright, not too OP, easy to code, and good and balanced buff. 

[Riasiru]

You just crushed my dreams.

Oh, no! Your dreams!! Let me see if I can dust them off and realign the bones.

 

Steel Charge doesn't have to buff ability damage if the ability is considered melee, however, there is nothing stopping DE from making it do so at their own will. (You put the idea out there, up to them to consider it.)

 

Personally, though... 

Steel Charge is a rather underwhelming buff on its own, especially compared to the mod you can put on the actual weapon... Mod points are nice on a non-potato'd frame, though.

Edited March 26, 2014 by Riasiru

[Oriviagene]

How about adding some effect according to what melee weps that currently used by player?

For example :

Normal sword : additional slash proc

Long sword : same thing but with additional range

Great sword : same but reduced slash dmg with huge range

Staff : KD/pushing mobs away?

Dual axes : slash proc

Hammer: permanent puncture effect+KD

Axes :KD+slash

Kestrel : ragdoll

Glaive : slash proc

Elemental melee : additional elemental effect according to the basic element(ichors should proc toxic to every target that got hit)

Dat's just my wildest dream so don't take it seriously :/

[Stormandreas]

Your wrong about Slash Dash, but probably right about Javelin!

 

Slash Dash is by it´s description and animation a Melee Attack!!!

It's animation is not linked to any of the melee mechanics we have, and its description might say melee attack, but it itself, does not use the melee system, so does not register in the game as a melee attack.

[r0ckwolf]

It's animation is not linked to any of the melee mechanics we have, and its description might say melee attack, but it itself, does not use the melee system, so does not register in the game as a melee attack.

Yeah.. and that´s why you are wrong. Since it´s clearly described as a melee attack and obviously looks like a melee attack, it should register as a, what a suprise, MELEE ATTACK!!!! 

That´s what this whole thread is about... rightfully so.

[RahuHordika]

I suggested in my sadly forgotten thread that an interesting mechanic for Slash Dash would be to be able to apply the elemental proc of your equipped melee.

Either all the time or sometimes is still a matter of internal debate, although I tend to lean more towards medium-high chance. Slash Dash may be a power but out of all the moves Excal has that one is definitely a melee move and in my opinion it should feel like such.

[Riasiru]

It's animation is not linked to any of the melee mechanics we have, and its description might say melee attack, but it itself, does not use the melee system, so does not register in the game as a melee attack.

You're still discussing semantics without putting forth constructive input. DE has the power the change mechanics. At one point melee did not receive a stealth bonus as there was no stealth system in the game. They could at any point in time they feel like add stealth bonuses to select abilities just as they have done for melee. 

 

Find a new point to argue, please. This one is a lost cause. Repeating yourself over and over will not validate it.

 

 

Yeah.. and that´s why you are wrong. Since it´s clearly described as a melee attack and obviously looks like a melee attack, it should register as a, what a suprise, MELEE ATTACK!!!! 

That´s what this whole thread is about... rightfully so.

Please stop arguing with him, r0ckwolf. At this point all his criticisms are deconstructive and do nothing to further the topic.