# Rhino Primes, Helmets And Sprinting (Oh- Wat! No!) [Change Proposals]

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Today I tested Rhino Prime with Vanguard+Rush just to see how fast he goes. I also did some simply math just to compare/contrast and

[Reminding that Vanguard takes affect before mods]

Rhino+Vanguard

.9 x .25 = .225

.225+.9=1.125 sprint speed

Rhino Prime+Vanguard

1.0x.25=.25

.25+1.0 = 1.25 sprint speed

This is, as we all know, equivalent to an un rushed Loki

Both Loki and Vangard Rhino P will top off at a healthy 1.625

1.25 x .30 = .375

.375 + 1.25 = 1.625 sprint speed

If you want some extra numbers

Rhino + Vanguard + Rush

1.125 x .30= .3375

.3375 + 1.125 = 1.4625 sprint

Rhino + Rush

.9 x .3 = .27

.9+ .27 = 1.17 sprint speed

Rhino P + Rush

1.0 x .3 =  .3

.3 + 1.0 = 1.3 sprint speed

Vanguard + Rush increasing Rhino Prime's top speed by 61.5%

1.0 / 1.625 = .6153... x 100 = ~61.5%

This does not include any other speed enhancing abilities or aura such as Speed or Sprint Boost. Nor does it include Rhino Charge.

But why would this matter when helmets are being neutralized of stats for future players? Why would it matter if both of them run at the same speed?

Opinion:

How I see running is that it is more than running forward but also can benefit in the evasion of incoming fire. If a Rhino P with iron skin were to get hit by a level 35 projectile, they will be ok for the most part while if an Invisible Loki were unlucky enough to be struck, it can be catastrophic. That being said, there is nothing wrong with a speedy "tank". Personally I like a fast Rhino because I hate being slow. I picked Loki and run him with maxed rush. Anything slower than Nekros is too slow for me, as I throw on rush or copters. A tank that can rival one of the most fragile frames in the game however does not seem right.

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Stat wise, Loki needs the speed more than Rhino because if a projectile, yielding the same amount of damage were to hit both frames, Loki would be afflicted the most. At the same time, both Loki and Rhino sit on opposite ends of the spectrum in relationship to their abilities: one draws aggro to the self while the other disperses it.

Most Loki players know to move out of the way of incoming fire. Most will move out of the radius of an AOE if they can ( or at least I can assume they will). Speed is consider his "thing" which Rhino P is encroaching on.

So as priority goes, the more fragile the frame, the more they will need faster movement. As you can see, this hold true for the most part. http://warframe.wikia.com/wiki/Warframes_Comparison (by hitting the arrows on sprint speed you can see they are organized by top speed)

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Change Proposals

- Remove the speed and/or give him extra health. His sudden buff does not aline with the other frames. If one prime gets an up, all the rest need an up.

- Nullify ALL stats. Leave no stated helmets in the game

- Make Vanguard reduce stamina too. Now he can not run for as long.

-Weight: Make it so Rhino takes more time to reach max speed than Loki. And not a mine difference, a drastic one. He has alot of armor on him, make him feel like it. The heavier the frame, the slower the reeve up.

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I don't get how this is relevant.

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What good is a tank if you cant get ot the action fast enough? Why is a fast rhino bad? I have yet to see a valid argument on why this is a bad thing.

Edited by (PS4)Deli176
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I don't get how this is relevant.

He is up voting the OP...

Anyways. I completely agree. The speed was a bad idea. There is a reason that tank classes are slow. That being said there are different types of tanks. Rhino, should actually be the slowest because of his ability to has a constant damage buffer allowing him to take zero damage and resist knockdowns for a certain amount of time, per say. Now a tank like valkry, should be allowed to be fast because she can still die with her squishy shields and chance for her final ability to actually kill herself, albeit it is a small chance it is still a chance. It balances it more for her and makes no sense for Rhino.

I agree with everything the OP posted

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What good is a tank if you cant get ot the action fast enough? Why is a fast rhino bad? I have yet to see a valid argument on why this is a bad thing.

There is nothing wrong with a fast tank

I stated this.

The problem is that with this helmet you are reaching a level of speed that is mainly re severed for more fragile frames

I would expect rhino with rush to be able to keep up with ash and nekros but nothing more

I have a lot of valid reasoning. Game play wise tanks are main to be slower because they are generally much more capable of taking damage then casters and tricksters.

This is UNIVERSAL. I'm not making this up. Every game ever if there is a powerful character with alot of health they are generally slow. If they are fast they are generally hard to control because they don't turn on a dime.

Rhino doesn't need it because he fits into the tank role. Thus it shouldn't be something you can do innately. If he is gonna be fast it's because of rush (which you give up a critical mod slot for. )

5% is nothing considering how poor the damage is and it's element for stomp which you can trump with roar still.

I say this because he doesn't need to top off with loki. Maybe with nekros or even ash

But not Loki

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While I hate to help kick a dead horse...

I'm going to in this case because you brought up some interesting points.

1. Loki has the ability to fill few roles. One of which is a Tank. Tanking is reserved for classes that can manage threat.

Loki's entire ability set focuses on threat management.

Players seem to have latched on to the idea that Loki is the "rogue" or "recon" frame, but there are other frames that fulfill those roles more clearly. Ash and Banshee

The truth of the matter is that Loki is a better tank than Rhino as Iron Skin no longer generates threat.

2. Most of the dangerous projectiles in the game are either hitscan or homing. Invis stops the homing function. AOE can be side-stepped, side-rolled, backflipped, or switch-teleported away from.

As such, neither Loki nor Rhino actually need speed. Loki sees more benefit purely by virtue of the facts that he has low hp/shields/armor and that he has access to powerful melee damage while invisible. Speed allows Loki to leverage that melee effectively.

For the rest, the only thing their enhanced speed allows them to do is bypass content.

A much more ideal scenario would be to normalize speed across all the frames.

Why?

It's reasonable to expect that tanks are supposed to remain with the group. Likewise that Tanks enter first to get aggro. This has been the expectation for countless co-op games that used trinity based classes.

If tanks are supposed to remain with the group, but be the first into a room. They should be fast enough to keep up with a group, but not so fast they run off and leave that group.

Frost isn't

Saryn isn't

Rhino isn't

Normalizing speed across all frames while removing any individual speed enhancing mod would remove this issue entirely.

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Loki is a better tank than Rhino

Your entire post is invalid. It doesn't matter what side you are on.

Making the AI vegetables attacking a decoy in a vortex is not tanking. Staying invisible for half a minute per cast isn't either.

Rushing in with a power that buffs your effective health by 166-33% of your current damage absorbing capacity (depending on build) and having immunity to CC (while also drawing aggro) is by in large tanking in this game.

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What good is a tank if you cant get ot the action fast enough? Why is a fast rhino bad? I have yet to see a valid argument on why this is a bad thing.

Can you stop with this nonsense already, or we might hear bs like 'what good is cannon for if its made of glass => give Nova Iron Skin!' and the fabulous Loki Prime with 1000 shields and health.  Because lets stack all the strenghts at one frame and make it excell at every role right? Tankiness, CC immunity. team damge buff, massive CC with aoe damage , still not enough -  lets make it fastest frame in the game too, or god forbid people chose other frames to play.

Edited by Monolake
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Can you stop with this nonsense already, or we might hear bs like 'what good is cannon for if its made of glass => give Nova Iron Skin!' and the fabulous Loki Prime with 1000 shileds and health.  Because lets stack all the strenghts at one frame and make it excell at every role right? Tankiness, CC immunity. team damge buff, massive CC, still not enough -  lets make it fastest frame in the game too, or god forbid people chose other frames to play.

I'm just going to copy and paste this to a notepad specifically so that I can use it any time I see a related post.

Thank you.

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Your entire post is invalid. It doesn't matter what side you are on.

Making the AI vegetables attacking a decoy in a vortex is not tanking. Staying invisible for half a minute per cast isn't either.

Rushing in with a power that buffs your effective health by 166-33% of your current damage absorbing capacity (depending on build) and having immunity to CC (while also drawing aggro) is by in large tanking in this game.

My post is inconvenient, perhaps. But completely valid and relevant.

You can't simply call something invalid because it's inconvenient...

Your anecdotal remarks don't change the decades old operational doctrine regarding game tanking I originally posted.

Tanks can mitigate incoming damage from enemies, healers restore damage done from enemies, and DPS classes do damage to enemies.

That's the Trinity...

The argument up to now has been that Rhino is a tank and tanks shouldn't move that fast... Well, Loki is also a tank... so now what?

Each frame in the game fills, on average, two roles.

Loki fills the roles of Tank and DPS... So does Rhino.

"Making the AI vegetables attacking a decoy in a vortex is not tanking" Yes, it actually is. "Staying invisible for half a minute per cast isn't either."

This is true... it's called a defensive maneuver. Loki's use Invisibility to keep from getting targeted with attacks.

Rushing in with a power that buffs your effective health by 166-33% of your current damage absorbing capacity (depending on build) and having immunity to CC (while also drawing aggro) is by in large tanking in this game. Agreed... If only Rhino had an ability that generated threat...

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Can you stop with this nonsense already, or we might hear bs like 'what good is cannon for if its made of glass => give Nova Iron Skin!' and the fabulous Loki Prime with 1000 shields and health.  Because lets stack all the strenghts at one frame and make it excell at every role right? Tankiness, CC immunity. team damge buff, massive CC with aoe damage , still not enough -  lets make it fastest frame in the game too, or god forbid people chose other frames to play.

That's the point though...

Everyone seems to want diversity as long as they are getting the best end of the deal.

When they aren't, they complain and call it imbalanced.

The goal should always be diversity with similar end results.

Normalizing speed across the board resolves the entirety of the issue by making speed a non-factor.

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He is up voting the OP...

Anyways. I completely agree. The speed was a bad idea. There is a reason that tank classes are slow. That being said there are different types of tanks. Rhino, should actually be the slowest because of his ability to has a constant damage buffer allowing him to take zero damage and resist knockdowns for a certain amount of time, per say. Now a tank like valkry, should be allowed to be fast because she can still die with her squishy shields and chance for her final ability to actually kill herself, albeit it is a small chance it is still a chance. It balances it more for her and makes no sense for Rhino.

I agree with everything the OP posted

I GET IT NOWWW

Lol, I thought it was a greenhouse..

Y'know smoking..Greenhouse gases..

>.>

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Can you stop with this nonsense already, or we might hear bs like 'what good is cannon for if its made of glass => give Nova Iron Skin!' and the fabulous Loki Prime with 1000 shields and health.  Because lets stack all the strenghts at one frame and make it excell at every role right? Tankiness, CC immunity. team damge buff, massive CC with aoe damage , still not enough -  lets make it fastest frame in the game too, or god forbid people chose other frames to play.

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And we are talking about a game which doesn't have any aggro mechanics except face aggro when an enemy sees a tenno.

Since we shoot weapons most of the time and since everyone can have the same weapons and vitually deal the same damage while abilities just add something, the whole concept of looking at the situation and comparing it to an mmo is nonsense.

The only frames that fit that concept remotely are trinity, rhino and nova. You've got the healer, the tank and the caster and surpringly all the frames considered most op/broken at the moment.

Never heard of a tank in an mmo that fits nearly all roles.

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Many Rhino mains dont want him to be slow, that is fine and all. But other frames need the speed way more and  it would make 3 times more sense.

And stop with the stupid "Rhinos in RL are fast tho" comment, so are lions and Valkyr still is slower.

Thanks to this bonus he can get for the "downside" of -5% Power he just turns into Excalibur 2.0, with better stats and similar skills only way better.

Stupid eough that he gets 25% when Saryn (also a slow frame) gets only 10% from her helmet.

Edited by Ttariel
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What good is a tank if you cant get ot the action fast enough? Why is a fast rhino bad? I have yet to see a valid argument on why this is a bad thing.

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-Snippet-

Using spoilers to keep it clean and organized

1. Being invisible DOES NOT mean you are a tank

here are some  wiki entry

A tank is a style of character in gaming, often associated with a character class. A common convention in real-time strategy games, role-playing games, Fighting Games and MUDs, tanks redirect enemy attacks or attention toward themselves in order to protect other characters or units. Since this role often requires them to suffer large amounts of damage, they rely on large amounts of vitality or armor, evasiveness and misdirection, or self regeneration.

The Thief, Scoundrel, or Rogue is a character class in many role-playing games, including Dungeons & Dragons, Final Fantasy, World of Warcraft and many MMORPGs. Thieves are usually stealthy and dexterous characters able to disarm traps, pick locks, spy on foes, and perform backstabs from hiding.

Thieves are usually capable of melee or ranged combat, and tend to be focused on dodging attacks rather than withstanding damage. They often attack by dual-wielding daggers or with other small one-handed and/or concealable weapons, relying on speed and rapid strikes rather than sheer damage output. Thieves usually have a stealth ability, allowing them to disappear from sight, often this is combined with attacking an unaware or flanked opponent to inflict high damage.

Thieves are usually restricted to the lighter armors, leather and the like. While thieves typically cannot practice magic, they might use scrolls or magic items in some games; if neither options are available, then technical gadgets are used. In most fantasy settings, smaller and more agile fantasy races (like elves, gnomes and hobbits) are particularly suited for the thief class.

And thus as you said, Loki would fill in a role 2 others fill in

I would say Ash is the Rogue, Loki is the trickster, and Banshee is the scout (though I may be incorrect on my classes)

But if Rhino is a tank.. what about Frost? He also has the same amount of shields/health/armor and the only thing he does more than Rhino is protect. So under the umbrella of a "tank" you an have different forms of "tanking".

2. Have you tried to side step a Fire Leader's AOE or a Naplam's fire that disobeys most game logic and still hurts you while you hid behind boxes?

And not a little, ALOT

In higher levels, being invisible doesn't stop you from getting hit, you are just untargetable. If a rhino were to get scrapped by that AOE you would be fine, even at basic speed. A loki being hit with an AOE is devastating.

Every faction has something that can potential destroy a more fragile frame if you are careless or just bad luck

Grineer: Naplams, Bombards, Evisorators, Scorchers

Corpus: Shockwaves, Antimoa (being knocked down for a loki is the worst situation if your invisibility is about to run out

Ancients: Disruptors (which do still target you if you dont move) Toxics

You are assuming that everyone has switch teleport. You assume everyone knows how to backflip or side roll.

That is why you need to be able to run, to get out of the way! And since there is no weight differences, Rhino P sprints away with just as much vigor as Loki.

Energy is not always a readily available resource and it wouldnt be even more so without energy siphon. It may not be used as such but running and being able to get out of the way fast enough is a good evasion tactic when you are being hurt or you know you cant take on an enemy. Personally, I dont go invisible because I want to save my energy for when I need it, not bypass content. If I can help it, using speed to get out of the way comes before using energy.

I dont think normalizing speed fixed the problem either because then stronger frames can easily abuse this, killing everything before anyone else could. And it still happens now. Why does it matter in a PVE game? Well no one wants to feel like they are just soaking up Exp. They wanna try and help and prove they are good. Its not about getting all the kills, its about showing "I am good enough to do "X","Y","Z"'

So ill say it once more: nothing is wrong with a speedy tank however you can only allow them to reach a point before they are encroaching on a survival tactic designed for someone who is suppose to need it. Thus why I still believe it should be reduced to at least max out around 1.1 or 1.15

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why is a fast and strong rhino prime a bad thing? you dont like rhino and dont want him to be strong? why is this even relevant on a coop game?

if you dont want a fast rhino prime, use normal rhino.

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Exactly because it is a coop game. You play with others.

It's the same with the Nova argument. She nullifies game interaction for the team if played wrong (or right xD).

Even if it means the team gets XP and stuff... that's not everything. Everyone wants a piece from the cake.

If you are superior due to skill, that's another thing. I don't doubt, there a skillful Rhino players... but honestly for the most part Rhino just promotes lazy gameplay.

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Posting in the body... Final thoughts below.

Using spoilers to keep it clean and organized

1. Being invisible DOES NOT mean you are a tank.  Not by itself, No... Couple it with measures that move threat and you have a tank

here are some  wiki entry

A tank is a style of character in gaming, often associated with a character class. A common convention in real-time strategy games, role-playing games, Fighting Games and MUDs, tanks redirect enemy attacks or attention toward themselves in order to protect other characters or units. Since this role often requires them to suffer large amounts of damage, they rely on large amounts of vitality or armor,*** evasiveness and misdirection***, or self regeneration.

Well.. That's that... Loki is a tank and we can all finally agree on that point.

>snip<

But if Rhino is a tank.. what about Frost? He also has the same amount of shields/health/armor and the only thing he does more than Rhino is protect. So under the umbrella of a "tank" you an have different forms of "tanking". Agreed

You are assuming that everyone has switch teleport. You assume everyone knows how to backflip or side roll. No, I didn't.. I assume Loki's can... We are talking about Loki, right?

That is why you need to be able to run, to get out of the way! And since there is no weight differences, Rhino P sprints away with just as much vigor as Loki.

This is a rather common fallacy and why I noted that dangerous projectiles are either homing or hitscan. You can't outrun a bullet. Evasion tactics will mitigate the damage. but bullets are hitscan.

If anything... Where homing attacks are concerned...Invisibility is a more attractive defensive option as it allows you the need for minimal movement to receive maximum evasion.

That leads me to another brilliant idea though... Why does a ninja game have only 2 characters who can stealth at will?

Subject for another day...

Energy is not always a readily available resource and it wouldnt be even more so without energy siphon. It may not be used as such but running and being able to get out of the way fast enough is a good evasion tactic when you are being hurt or you know you cant take on an enemy. Personally, I dont go invisible because I want to save my energy for when I need it, not bypass content. If I can help it, using speed to get out of the way comes before using energy.

This can be applied to Rhino and Iron Skin. It likewise applies to every other frame in the game.

I dont think normalizing speed fixed the problem either because then stronger frames can easily abuse this, killing everything before anyone else could. And it still happens now. Why does it matter in a PVE game? Well no one wants to feel like they are just soaking up Exp. They wanna try and help and prove they are good. Its not about getting all the kills, its about showing "I am good enough to do "X","Y","Z"'  I agree that it's being abused now. Normalizing the speed across the board would make the playing field even. Players that wanted to abuse the system then wouldn't have the amount of latitude they do now.

So ill say it once more: nothing is wrong with a speedy tank however you can only allow them to reach a point before they are encroaching on a survival tactic designed for someone who is suppose to need it. Thus why I still believe it should be reduced to at least max out around 1.1 or 1.15

Something is wrong when tanks are so speedy that they can't stay with their group.

Speed for Rhino isn't a survival tactic as it doesn't shed hate. It's just speed.  Loki's actually do use it as a survival tactic accompanied by skills that shed hate.

Normalizing speed across the board will expose needs for the improvement of classes without doing so at other classes expense.

Asserting that normalized speed would allow stronger frames to abuse it is a statement without proofs.

We know that both Loki and Rhino are abusing their current speed advantage now.

Removing the advantage and leveling the playing field removes the abuse.

It will encourage other evasion mechanics to be employed or implemented because content won't be able to be bypassed so easily.

Teams will arrive to the next combat area more likely intact without slower frames being punished for not carrying copter weapons.

Normalizing speed offers advantages to all the frames...

Whereas lowering the speed on just one frame merely makes the users of another feel better about it.

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why is a fast and strong rhino prime a bad thing? you dont like rhino and dont want him to be strong? why is this even relevant on a coop game?

if you dont want a fast rhino prime, use normal rhino.

Because playing a coop game where you can't do anything because someone picked a better class than you isn't fun?

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Typical biased rhino nerf threads are getting old.

This does not include any other speed enhancing abilities or aura such as Speed or Sprint Boost. Nor does it include Rhino Charge.

------------

Stat wise, Loki needs the speed more than Rhino because if a projectile, yielding the same amount of damage were to hit both frames, Loki would be afflicted the most. At the same time, both Loki and Rhino sit on opposite ends of the spectrum in relationship to their abilities: one draws aggro to the self while the other disperses it.

Most Loki players know to move out of the way of incoming fire. Most will move out of the radius of an AOE if they can ( or at least I can assume they will). Speed is consider his "thing" which Rhino P is encroaching on.

So as priority goes, the more fragile the frame, the more they will need faster movement. As you can see, this hold true for the most part. http://warframe.wikia.com/wiki/Warframes_Comparison (by hitting the arrows on sprint speed you can see they are organized by top speed)

Can you stop with this nonsense already, or we might hear bs like 'what good is cannon for if its made of glass => give Nova Iron Skin!' and the fabulous Loki Prime with 1000 shields and health.  Because lets stack all the strenghts at one frame and make it excell at every role right? Tankiness, CC immunity. team damge buff, massive CC with aoe damage , still not enough -  lets make it fastest frame in the game too, or god forbid people chose other frames to play.

Yea loki is fragile and he can't mitigate damage like a tank, but he can completely avoid damage with invisibility which is 1000x better than mitigating damage with IS,

if speed was loki's ""thing"" why aren't you asking to nerf volt? Tankiness, aoe cc+damage, team damage buff.

Game play wise tanks are main to be slower because they are generally much more capable of taking damage then casters and tricksters.

This is UNIVERSAL. I'm not making this up. Every game ever if there is a powerful character with alot of health they are generally slow.

Volibear. He's a tank with lots of health and moves fast.

Also Geb on smite.

For the rhino kit +stats is too good arguement

His numerical values are below average except rhino charge. He's also mastery locked and should be better. Like the marelok is better compared to semi auto secondaries.

For the Rhino can charge and is end all be all fast frame arguement

Switch teleport

Edited by GetAtMeMods
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TypicYea loki is fragile and he can't mitigate damage like a tank, but he can completely avoid damage with invisibility which is 1000x better than mitigating damage with IS,

if speed was loki's ""thing"" why aren't you asking to nerf volt? Tankiness, aoe cc+damage, team damage buff.

Volibear. He's a tank with lots of health and moves fast.

Also Geb on smite.

For the rhino kit +stats is too good arguement

His numerical values are below average except rhino charge. He's also mastery locked and should be better. Like the marelok is better compared to semi auto secondaries.

For the Rhino can charge and is end all be all fast frame arguement

Switch teleport

Ok. In case you don't know, Volt is not tanky at all. He has high shield stats, but extremely low armor and he cannot carry his electric shields with him. His damage buff is more like an indirect buff and only melee speed... this comparison is nonsense.

Rhino is mastery locked... and obtainable at level 3. That's more or less like not beeing locked at all. No real argument.

The point is where we are not getting any further is: Why is Rhino, a defensive frame allowed to be so fast and Frost for example not? Why? Because he's Rhino? He ìs the heaviest frame, so why is he also one of the fastest? Biological logics aside there still remains the question gameplay-wise, why exactly this and only this defensive tanky frame is allowed to be nearly as fast as the other fragile agility frames?

Because he needs to get into action because he is a tank? This is a poor excuse for rushers to be able to rush with a Rhino.

If the argument would be he needs to be so fast, that he can at least don't get to far behind all those Novas and Lokis, that would be an entire other story, but I don't buy that crap about beeing a tank and such he has to be faster than all the others.

Fragile frames have to use their speed/agility for positioning. A Tank doesn't need that to this degree because he has to be in the sweet spot to facetank, or am I wrong? A tank does draw aggro. The team orientates itself to the tank, because he decides the targets and he dictates the pacing. Well, that's not the case in warframe.

It's just running to the end of the mission and kill everything on sight. Even heavies are for the most part killed so fast, that there is no need for a tank. And if there is, then we are outside of planned gamedesign.

So what is all that "thino the tank" about?

Polemic excuses for justifying something he doesn't really deserve. The heavy unit is never the agile type. It's illogical otherwise.

Edited by SIDESTRE4M
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The heavy unit is never the agile type. It's illogical otherwise.

heres another thing
people need to get out of their TF2 bubble

rhino is not ur typical heavy
rhino is a hybrid/ off tank
he has alot of health like a heavy, but his damaging abilities are really low unlike a heavy